Downsizing, well I did it.

[proline32]

Well, I though that I would run just a crew and myself supervising the crew this year down from having three crews last year, But After some thought I decided to just work for myself and I Informed my remaining 3 employees today that they will want to start looking for jobs and they should check with other landscape companies. I just got tired of being a babysitter and it really wasn't any fun anymore dealing with employee issues. Besides this gives me the chance to get rid of some lousy accounts and work on getting more profitable smaller accounts. Basicly I'm gonna keep a spare set of mowers and trimmers as back up tools. I found a smaller shop to move to and I'll save $$$ on the rent and sell every thing else off and pocket the cash. I like working by myself and I won't have to deal with the tax and L&I issues that pertain to employees, and I think I will make more profit if I can control cost better. I just don't feel like taking over the world anymore, I want to make plenty of money during the season and maybee take most of the winter off and spend the time with the missus.

[TJLC]

Sounds like a plan to me. I guess I'm not the only one who feels he's better off staying solo. I've delt with employies 2 times and that was enough for me. I'm sure there has to be advantages of having a crew but I guess I'm happy just having to deal with me. I'm sure there will be some conflict on this one. LOL

[scott's turf]

I do not have a large opperation but I do have a couple of employees that make money for me all the time. It seems when you are solo you have a set limit of revenue. Say you work 40hrs by yourself and bring in $45/hr. That is $1800/week. But is you have a worker with you, even if you pay him $15/hr, you will make $90/hr at the job. After you pay him you now have made $75/hr X 40hr week = $3000. It may not be as good as I stated but I don't know how the profit could be less.

[heygrassman]

Please do not take this a derogotory or disrespectful because it is not meant to be, I am looking to grow to a few crews and just curious.

Is it that you do not like mananging the crews or that you are unable to find manageable crews??

I also do not understand the profitablity argument. I would rather have margins 60% of 200K (120K in Earnings and 80K in expense) per year that 80% of 120K(96K in Earnings and 24 K in expense). This is assuming that an employee is only can only allow you to derive 60% income and costs you 20% of your margins. (I realize these margins are not real, just numbers I picked out of my Friday-wasted brain.)

I can understand the notion that no one will ever do the job as good as we can because we have a vested interest they get a paycheck. Heck, I may get into this and find the extra $$ aint worth the hassle. Just curious on your take.

jf

[proline32]

well I figure to do about 5000 per month by myself. The goal is to work my butt off during the summers and then take a couple of months off and goof around.... you see, I spent years working hard and trying to make as much money as possible year round and rarely ever took vacations, well I just turned 38 recently and I have had a change in the way I look at things, I really don't need to make a lot of money to be happy, my wife has an excellent job that she is happy with that pays well, we don't have a lot of debt issues now and my kid has turned 18 and is out of the house. If I make 45 grand this year that is fine, I plan to enjoy doing things, and make work fun again.... Yes I basicly did not enjoy managing personel, I did not enjoy the fact that people didn't show up for work or whatever, and I really enjoy working by myself, I don't need to tell myself constantly to make sure that you don't mow the grass to low or make sure you wear your ear and eye protection.

[slplow]

Proline32,I think you should keep one worker . Just think about it, if some thing happens to like you break your arm or for some other reason you end up in the hospital. There will be someone getting some work done and making you $$. I my self had more than one crew and found it was to much of pain for a # of reasons and now its 1 worker and me. Things get done right the first time and all the time.

[proline32]

You are correct there scott, actually I have that worked out with a frind of mine who also is an LCO, Sometimes when he needs a break I cover some of his accounts and when I need him it's vice versa but I have though of having just one employee and getting a kid who just came out of high school training him well and giving him decent pay. You know, molding that skull full of mush into something that will do things your way. It's certainly better than flipping burgers..... The wife runs a KFC restaurant and some of her people are always asking me for work....... she has this one guy who would make a great worker and I would offer the guy $10.00 to start as a trainee.

[MATTHEW]

From what I gather from friends who run multiple crews, the big losses happen in labor overtime and workers comp. insurance.
Second is equipment repair and/or replacement due to abuse,
Third is extra hours for interviewing/hiring/payroll....ect.
I agree one employee extra on your truck will be beneficial.

[bababooie]

i agree, all i ever hear is, how hard it is to find good help. i dont know how these co. with 10-15 guys do it?

[bababooie]

i agree all i ever hear is , how hard it is to find good help,i dont know how these co. with 10-15 people do it?

[heygrassman]

i agree all i ever hear is , how hard it is to find good help,i dont know how these co. with 10-15 people do it?

Same way the cable companies, builders, heating and cooling, etc do it. Hire as best you can. Work hard to keep the good ones, rip the bad ones and train, promote, etc. Find the good ones and make it so they dont get bored.

Got to find out what motivates people...

jf

[danzig]

I used to be a solo operation until last year. I went through a couple of guys until i got a good one. Now i finish in half the time i used to. I would like to get a crew together when i get the business but good help is hard to find. I have seen crews from other lco's work for an hour and break for an hour. No babysitter or maybe they did a big job earlier that day and met their quota for the day.

[LAWNS AND MOWER]

Proline-- I did the same thing you're doing about 6 years ago. Sold 1/2 of my accounts to a employee who had been working for me for 9 years. I got to chose which accounts I kept, so my drive time is minimal. Was worried about the income issue at first, but I took on new accounts in existing clusters, offered more add-on services, and raised my prices. I'm clearing more now than when I had employees. I refer potential work to my ex-employee and he does the same for me. We also cover each others a$$ should someone have equipment breakdowns, sickness, or need to be out of town. Worked out great for me. Hope it does for you. Good luck.

LAWNS AND MOWER

PS How do I get my wife/cashcow to go back to work?

[proline32]

easy Lawns and mower.... just sit around your house for a few weeks and drive her nuts then she'll decide to get a job just to have her sanity back then you go back to work.;)

[VLM]

I'm with you proline. Working alone is the only way to fly in my book. I hear over and over that you just have to get the right employee...well I never found him. Anyway it's really apples and oranges. LCO's who work solo get the unquantifiable compensation of FREEDOM. Sure your income is limited, but that is the tradeoff you make.

[proline32]

Well, I met an LCO yesterday that used to be a big commercial outfit with lots of employees and doing all kinds of office complexes and stuff and he now operates as a loner, same Issues, but he does mostly estates now and only does one or two a day now.

[Guardian]

I think you'll find that the LCO's who have downsized seem to keep doing well because they get to pick from the cream of the crop. For me, I have 50+ accounts that are gold and 25 more that are just NOT. So loosing an empoyee and downsizing means I can keep the top 50, my equip last longer because I'm only cuttin quality stuff and I am in control of how my equip is treated.

I have a helper still and completely agree with keeping him. I can share the work load while earning MORE due to billing him out for at least $30/hr. Between him and my relationship with another LCO, I am covered for those unfortunate days when I just can't work.

There's lessons to be learned my our LCO forefathers

[RB]

VLM said it right! Proline, you will ask yourself why you didn't do this sooner.

I did the same thing you did a couple of years ago. I'm the same age and make about the same income. Here are just a few things I can do now I don't have employees.

Sleep in a little (or even better, get up earlier and get home sooner).

After the rain stops you don't have to chase workers down to get back to the garage to work.

No call offs

You can take the extra time on a property you wanted to but wasn't able to.

when you're in a bad mood the only one to take it out on is yourself!

If you are caught up you can take a day off and go to a ball game or to Wallyworld.

And like VLM said the freedom you will experience will have you stoked!

Ron

[Charles]

The main difference between us an most other type of businesses is that it so easy to start your own biz in lawncare and make the same or more than you would working for someone else. So most of the employees who do stay with you(not all) are not driven or responsible enough to start their own lawn care biz. Now that is pretty bad. YOu want precision fast work from employee to get keep your profit margin. While the employee is just doing his time and working for beer money. I dont see how you would get enough quality people to run more than one crew. I can imagine that after a few year of running 2 or three years you would go insane lol. Like some in this thread I did have employees and found my quality of life sucked.

[proline32]

Thanks all you guys for your reponses, It's nice to share experiences with people who do the same thing you do....
Basicly I'm changing my business model altogether, I'm dropping hedge trimming, yards over 1/4 acre, field mowing, brushcutting, weed pulling, flower bed maint, you name it and just going to a mow and go approach, I've been hitting neighborhoods where the yards are all the same size 3000 sq ft and under, and at $19.99 per yard, they get a mow, trim and edge and blow off debris, many of these yards only take 15 minute to do and if you get clusters of them you save on gas, people are more receptive to paying 20.00 for a little qwik work and I can expand my base.
A 32 proline WB will work well on many of these yards and I don't have to work hard to get them done not to mention one of these large neighborhoods is directly across the street from my shop.

[LAWNS AND MOWER]

Originally posted by proline32
easy Lawns and mower.... just sit around your house for a few weeks and drive her nuts then she'll decide to get a job just to have her sanity back then you go back to work.;)

Easier said then done!!! If I try this approach, then she'll just leave the house when I'm around and go spend even more money. Clusters are definetly the way to go. I'll only take on new accounts that are part of an existing cluster of accounts. I might take on a stray account every now and then if it's a cupcake yard and requires no push mowing. Good luck!!!!!

LAWNS AND MOWER

[Jason Pallas]

I downsized too this year. I had been planning on going down to one crew - but instead I cut a lot of the really lousy accounts and kept the better accounts - deciding to still go with two crews (but less employees). I figured that I shouldn't have to pay good money (from good accounts) for crappy employees and then wait for the bad accounts to pay (usually in March!) for my paycheck.
So, I just cut about 100 accounts and released 2-3 employees. Less headache and more money - I'm looking forward to this year now.

[lawnboy11]

Ain't that the truth

I had friends work for me for a while and that was ok because I could trust them. Two years ago they all grew up and got "real jobs", you know what I mean. So I decided to downsize instead of hiring different employees and last year was sweeter because of it. I decided to stay completely solo again this year and even cut a few more houses (did 76/week last year). All of the benefits mentioned in previous replies are the reason I've stayed solo. Can you say less stress? Employees can be a pain in the butt. And great too. I believe I will go with employees again in a few years, but for now I'll try to learn spanish first because it is really the only labor available around here. They are very good workers, but of course there are downsides to that issue as well such as language gap, legality, etc.

Around here EVERYONE uses hispanic labor. It's around 10$/ hour plus per guy. They are usually very hard workers and reliable, sending most of thier money home to their families. Then they winter at home and return in the spring. Most of them do not want to be a foreman though, a cultural issue, and this can lead to problems. (I'm trying to learn all about these things before going down that road).

Anyway, it depends on your personality, etc. which is best, but proline 32, I hope you will be happier going it alone this season, good luck. Don't break any part of you!

[Willis]

Four stars.
Any more on this subject ?

[LWNMWR1]

hey Lawns & Mower,
put the wife behind a walkbehind!!! the best and only employee i have is my wife. she loves it she gets to be the boss and takes the winter off. have tried employees and it bites

[mike9497]

if your just mowing lawns and clean up kind of deals one person can do it.if your like me and you do walls,landscape design,dump truck work,backhoe service,mulch sales,tree removal,lawn installs.you need more than one person

[Shuter]

Sounds good. I am a solo. I like not having to deal with employee problems. Sometimes I have to work real hard because I am by myself, but if I get a job that I need help on, there are a couple of laborers that I can hire on a daily basis.

I also beleive one of the reasons my customers stick with me is they deal with the owner who also does all the work.

[wriken]

I also decided to scale down this winter, I had 75 clients last year, and one helper. I decided to narrow it to about 30-40 clients, in which I have, and doing it myself. Most of my properties are 1+ acre, and I charge any where's from 35.00 to 75.00 per property. It takes about a hour to do each of my jobs, which is mowing/trimming/blowing and edging when needed. This makes me a pretty good average per hour, which keeps the bills paid. When I cut down my size, I will be doing more add-ons for the customers I kept. I only want to work 3-4 days a week, and have the rest of the week for make up if needed, or dethaching, areateing,fertilizing etc. I've started clean-ups and will be having a helper for that, but when the grass comes, it'll be just me.
:)

[LAWNS AND MOWER]

Originally posted by LWNMWR1
hey Lawns & Mower,
put the wife behind a walkbehind!!! the best and only employee i have is my wife. she loves it she gets to be the boss and takes the winter off. have tried employees and it bites Sounds great in theory. I hired my wife for one day and it was a disaster. After 2 yards, she was barfing. Poor thing. At least she tried.

[brucec32]

Originally posted by proline32
Thanks all you guys for your reponses, It's nice to share experiences with people who do the same thing you do....
Basicly I'm changing my business model altogether, I'm dropping hedge trimming, yards over 1/4 acre, field mowing, brushcutting, weed pulling, flower bed maint, you name it and just going to a mow and go approach, I've been hitting neighborhoods where the yards are all the same size 3000 sq ft and under, and at $19.99 per yard, they get a mow, trim and edge and blow off debris, many of these yards only take 15 minute to do and if you get clusters of them you save on gas, people are more receptive to paying 20.00 for a little qwik work and I can expand my base.
A 32 proline WB will work well on many of these yards and I don't have to work hard to get them done not to mention one of these large neighborhoods is directly across the street from my shop.

Sounds like you've arrived at the same market niche' I have over the years. You're concentrating on the work you do most competitively, though I do still do bigger lawns.

But weed pulling, mulching, flower beds, etc. is NOT the kind of work you can expect people to consistently pay big $$$ per hour for. So you're wise to drop that stuff.

I got into this business to be free and enjoy my days, so dealing with crews and lots of sales calls just didn't do it for me.

I also like the small lawns. I do some back yard only deals where I'm in and out in 12-17 minutes and make $22. I use a Toro proline 32" on them, too.

I have dabbled with employees in the past and run the numbers, and doing business in what I consider an ethical manner, and in a way that I also enjoyed, I couldn't find any way to make it pay. You just have to cut too many corners to make that spread on wages vs. revenue produced. Like someone else said, anybody worth hiring will probably go out on his own soon after you get them producing well.

Working alone gives you the freedom to do what you want every day, relax, and just trade a little work for a lot less stress. The income isn't as high, but for the hours a lot of guys invest with employees, I bet it's close.

A fit and motivated young guy in a tightly packed market with minimal drive time could do the following just mow/blow/go with a few extras like aerating, shrubs, seeding, and leaf cleanup, with most of the extra work done in the off-season:

$30/lawn (avg) , 30 minutes/lawn (avg), 10 minutes total drive/misc time average per lawn, = 40 min/lawn. 10 hours (600 minutes) a day, that is 15 lawns a day, or $450/day. Scheduling 4 full days of mowing a week (one day/week for rain makeup, equipment, errands, misc. work) equals $1800/week. Depends on the area, but here you're mowing the equivilent of about 30 weeks a year, factoring in slower growth in the Spring/Fall. That's a gross of about $54,000 for mowing, add in about 10% for extras ($5400) , and you're grossing almost $60,000. Overhead is super low with no worker's comp, lower insurance costs, less damage, equipment lasts a long time, etc, so that depending on your situation you'll certainly net well over $50,000 working 40-45 hour weeks in the busy times, less in the early spring/late fall, and very little in the winter. Few or no weekend work days, no evenings spent phone calling, minimal effort to find enough customers to stay busy, and other advantages.

Some guys make more going big with crews, of course, but they probably work twice the total hours, basically living the job. For me, life is too short to spend it living a job unless you really love doing it. Until the concept of bikini girl lawn mowing takes off, that isn't going to happen.

I prefer to make do with a little less and use the time for enjoyment and other financial pursuits. I hear stories of so many guys just churning money, in and out, to stay big. To me, it's not worth it. And thankfully, my ego doesn't require it.

[Mickhippy]

I'm a 1 man band. All I do is mow(up to 5acres or so), edge, blow and spray weeds(in the garden). I couldnt be happier. Very low overheads, only responsible for myself etc etc etc. Good on ya and good luck. I'm sure youll be much happier now.:drinkup:

[Mickhippy]

Originally posted by LAWNS AND MOWER
Sounds great in theory. I hired my wife for one day and it was a disaster. After 2 yards, she was barfing. Poor thing. At least she tried.

I bought a new 21' mower a few years ago and let my misses have a go. For some reason she couldnt get it to go in a straight line. This was strange as it was on very flat ground and the mower was self propelled. hmmmm she is ok ak at blowin though:p :eek: :D :blush: :dizzy:

[proline32]

well I haven't been on this site for some time, and being that I started this thread I thought that I would update anyone that is interested. I still am working by myself, I had a decent year last year, I raised my rates to around $60.00 per hour for mostly mowing, trimming, edge and blow clean work, I have incorporated Aeration and both Organic Fertilizing and chemical fertilizing into the program, and turn down more jobs than I take on because I set up a service profile where I only work on the lawns that I feel I can make a good profit on, I upgraded from my 32 proline to a 44" z master with the sfs deck ztr. Basically I worked part time last year, I started my day at 9 am and was usually done by 3 pm. The trick is to quote a flat rate to the customer versus an hourly rate, many days I averaged $63 to $80 per hour because I was able to do the work faster than the customer expected. If I did do any weed pulling or misc labor, I charged a premium for it and If the customer didn't want to pay what I was asking no big deal I didn't do it. By talking to many of my fellow LCO's around here I found that many of them were only averaging $35 to $45 per hour, One fellow told me that he only charged $20.00 per hour You should of seen the look on his face when I informed him that he was way below market value. His reasoning for his price was his assumtion that he as a customer would never pay more than $20.00 per hour for mowing work. Well, that is a stupid and blind way to do business. But it's his right to charge what he feels is right. though he did say that he was always busy,( I wonder why) But after having discussions with other Lco's, many of them are going to raise thier rates this year and they should. Another thing I did last year was to start selling Organic Fertilizers Direct to the general public, I buy 40 bags at a time to get the price down, double the cost and sell it to people who may not want to pay me to fertilize thier lawns, It's an easy way to make more money. I purchase all my products at United Horticultural supply and get a decent price. Anything that you can do to make money without killing your self I say. Well that is all I have to add.

Ron

[RidgeCon]

It is great to listen to other LCO who say exactly the same concerns Im have. We have developed in to an organization where we employ 40 people on our lawn crew in the summer months. These are just the mowers and trimmers. We try and try to get the best people we can every year and some years are better than others. We have tried raising wages, or giving other benefits and found that a good employee will be just that no matter what and the vice versa is true as well. We are fortunate to have some real good crew supervisors that make my life a lot easier. These guys and girls are invaluable to us and we let them know that. They work fulltime year round plowing, mowing etc and we seem to have a lot of fun with them.

I don't want to sound like we don't have any problems, we have plenty but I guess I look at them as something that is going to occur so i might as well accept it.

Best of luck to everyone this year, may the rain come down (when we want it to) and the grass come up.