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JFGLN
02-20-2009, 07:26 PM
Do you have experience with this kind of fertilizer?

http://www.co.pierce.wa.us/pc/abtus/ourorg/pwu/sewer/soundgro/index.htm

treegal1
02-20-2009, 09:10 PM
it looks great. and the $$#???

JFGLN
02-21-2009, 01:21 AM
[QUOTE=treegal1;2786855]it looks great. and the $$#???[/QUOTE

I saw it advertised $7 for a 50# bag. That was from a distributor, not sure yet about the price from the county.

treegal1
02-21-2009, 07:10 AM
7$!! yeah that great!!try the city and they may have a better deal, but 7$ is ok

ICT Bill
02-21-2009, 11:06 AM
Please ask them or find their heavy metals analysis. This is important, they may be selling it but it may be high in certain things you should not get on your hands or breathe

If applied incorrectly you will eat this stuff, be careful

They can be high in aresnic which just builds up in the body, cadmium as well.

Do yourself and your crews a favor and understand what you are dealing with and take precautions

this is my biggest gripe with bio-solids, you figure, well the city bags and sells it, it must be Okay!!! NOT

There is a company out west that sells humate and humic acid, the heavy metal numbers are extremely high. It is sold all over the US, not good especially if you are spraying it

know what you are working with

treegal1
02-21-2009, 11:12 AM
http://www.co.pierce.wa.us/pc/abtus/ourorg/pwu/sewer/soundgro/nutrientanalysis.htm

its on the web site, they are ok IMO for lawns, not food.......

phasthound
02-21-2009, 11:28 AM
http://www.co.pierce.wa.us/pc/abtus/ourorg/pwu/sewer/soundgro/nutrientanalysis.htm

its on the web site, they are ok IMO for lawns, not food.......

Yes, looks very good.

JFGLN
02-21-2009, 11:42 AM
Thanks for the feed back. We are going to give it a try.

treegal1
02-21-2009, 11:51 AM
Thumbs UpThanks for the feed back. We are going to give it a try.
well good on you, you are recycling one of the hardest to dispose of wastes in the best possible way!!

JFGLN
02-21-2009, 11:57 AM
In their user guide it mentions vegetable gardens. Here is a quote from the website.

"Follow these directions for healthy lawns, trees, shrubs and flowers.

Lawns - Apply 20 lbs of SoundGRO per 1000 square feet 4 times per year. The best times for fertilizing cool-season grasses are mid-April, mid-June, early September, and late October.

Trees - Apply 5 lbs of SoundGRO for every inch of the tree's diameter measured 4 feet from the ground. Apply under drip line or outer circumference of the tree.

Shrubs - Spread 4 lbs of SoundGRO per 100 square feet on shrub beds.

Vegetable Gardens - Mix 3 lbs of SoundGRO per 100 square feet into bedding soil in spring. Repeat when plants emerge.

Annuals - Mix 3 lbs of SoundGRO per 100 square feet into flower bed soils in spring. Repeat when buds are forming.

Perennials & Vegetable Gardens - Mix 5 lbs of SoundGRO per 100 square feet into the flower bed soils in spring. Repeat application when buds are forming.

*1 pound of SoundGRO = approximately 3 cups"

treegal1
02-21-2009, 12:03 PM
hey do what you want but just me, eh wood compost is my first choice maybe some composted manure, but why take the risk with the metals in a food crop......... .02

Jason Rose
02-21-2009, 01:12 PM
Looks like a similar product to Milorginate, just comes from a different sewage plant, lol.

The prices SEEM attractive, but the application rates are extremely high to get a pound of N down per 1,000. I learned this the hard way after my fert guy sold me on the Milorginate and swore to me that it would preform at even 4 lbs. per K. Uh, no it dosn't. That's barely even considered 1/4 rate. Essentially, to apply it at label rate it was costing me more than I was making. But that's not the point here...

I think it's a good product, if you can apply it heavy enough. I use the 'activated sewage sludge' here at home on all my shrubs and flowers, a few times a year. I can definately see an improvement that I just wasn't getting with synthetic ferts.

phasthound
02-21-2009, 02:50 PM
[QUOTE=Jason Rose;2788089]Looks like a similar product to Milorginate, just comes from a different sewage plant, lol.

The prices SEEM attractive, but the application rates are extremely high to get a pound of N down per 1,000. I learned this the hard way after my fert guy sold me on the Milorginate and swore to me that it would preform at even 4 lbs. per K. Uh, no it dosn't. That's barely even considered 1/4 rate. Essentially, to apply it at label rate it was costing me more than I was making. But that's not the point here...
/QUOTE]

That's why Nutrients PLUS organic bases (biosolids and composted poultry manure) are blended with small amounts of NPK. You can apply at 3-5 lbs/1000 and get the quick green up with 3/4 the N usually needed, and long term slow nutrient release from the organic matter.
you benefit from both "worlds"

bicmudpuppy
02-21-2009, 10:30 PM
Looks like a similar product to Milorginate, just comes from a different sewage plant, lol.

The prices SEEM attractive, but the application rates are extremely high to get a pound of N down per 1,000. I learned this the hard way after my fert guy sold me on the Milorginate and swore to me that it would preform at even 4 lbs. per K. Uh, no it dosn't. That's barely even considered 1/4 rate. Essentially, to apply it at label rate it was costing me more than I was making. But that's not the point here...

I think it's a good product, if you can apply it heavy enough. I use the 'activated sewage sludge' here at home on all my shrubs and flowers, a few times a year. I can definately see an improvement that I just wasn't getting with synthetic ferts.

Milorganite takes two passes with most equipment to get 1#N/m. You should be making two passes for uniform coverage, no matter what the product. There are enough other bonuses from using organics to justify the extra labor. I applied 1.5#N/m with milorganite as my winterizing application. I didn't expect much fall response (the iron was nice, it made the golfers think they were seeing fert respones) I am looking forward to great results this spring from the product. Syn guys are paying big bucks for 16+week slow release applications. Organics have always been there :) If you need a quikie, you can always put down a cheap app of ammonium sulfate. With a going rate of about $1.60 /#N, for a single booster app, I don't think you could go wrong. If I were in an area where a bulk sludge product was available, I would not be afraid to use it. Know what you are buying, but my opinion has always been that turf is nature's miracle as a filter. Heavies, chemicals, etc. get filtered well through turf. The ground water studies being done by the USGA in conjunction with various universities are all very positive. Golf has been the target by those who want to abolish chem apps. The contamination of ground water just has to be coming from those elitists at the Country Club. The studies are positive that turf applications do not show up in the water table from leaching. Ag uses are another thing all together. Spraying crops with open soil has been proven over and over to increase contamination. The advice about being very careful with food crops is valid and warranted.

Jason Rose
02-21-2009, 10:44 PM
Good Info Bic. Yes I found that 2 passes were needed, and I too applied Miloriginate to my own lawn at the 1.5# rate last fall. Every time we have had a warm spell this winter my lawn starts to green. I've used it almost exclusively for the last year and a half.
My 2 problems with my personal lawn were high pH and basically 'dead' soil. For 3 years I couldn't get any sort of turf to live, let alone thrive, and I'm a lawn guy! Finally getting the soil ammended with sulfur for the pH (slowly) and adding organic matter to the soil, my lawn last year look better, or at least as good as, most on my route. Plus I never had much 'surge growth' like most do.

Kiril
02-22-2009, 03:39 AM
The ground water studies being done by the USGA in conjunction with various universities are all very positive.

Not even going to touch this. :rolleyes:

treegal1
02-22-2009, 05:56 AM
Not even going to touch this. :rolleyes:yeah sometimes i think he is a conspirator

bicmudpuppy
02-22-2009, 01:47 PM
Not even going to touch this. :rolleyes:

yeah sometimes i think he is a conspirator

Kiril and I have had this argument. Possibly more than once. I think we have agreed to disagree?

treegal1
02-22-2009, 02:50 PM
Kiril and I have had this argument. Possibly more than once. I think we have agreed to disagree?yes lets just let it stay at that........

Smallaxe
02-23-2009, 01:35 PM
Good Info Bic. Yes I found that 2 passes were needed, and I too applied Miloriginate to my own lawn at the 1.5# rate last fall. Every time we have had a warm spell this winter my lawn starts to green. I've used it almost exclusively for the last year and a half.
My 2 problems with my personal lawn were high pH and basically 'dead' soil. For 3 years I couldn't get any sort of turf to live, let alone thrive, and I'm a lawn guy! Finally getting the soil ammended with sulfur for the pH (slowly) and adding organic matter to the soil, my lawn last year look better, or at least as good as, most on my route. Plus I never had much 'surge growth' like most do.

Great thought!!!

It epitomizes the definition of organics. :) :)

JFGLN
02-23-2009, 09:57 PM
I got the price list today. Lower then I thought. They are going to give me a free sample TON to start with.


www.soundgro.com • (253) 798-4005
SoundGRO™ Fertilizer Price Sheet*
Effective 1/1/2009
50 lbs. Bagged
Quantity Price Per Bag

1 to 3 - Bags $ 2.99
4 to 8 - Bags $ 2.53
9 to 15 - Bags $ 2.07
16 to 26 - Bags $ 184
27 to 39 - Bags $ 1.61
1 Ton (40 - 50# Bags) $ 1.38
Pallet Charge $ 5.00

treegal1
02-23-2009, 10:04 PM
OMG you lucky dog!!!! fert for compost prices, and a ton to start you off with, crack dealers dont have anything on that!!! wow!!!

Jason Rose
02-23-2009, 10:15 PM
50 lbs. Bagged
Quantity Price Per Bag

1 to 3 - Bags $ 2.99
4 to 8 - Bags $ 2.53
9 to 15 - Bags $ 2.07
16 to 26 - Bags $ 184
27 to 39 - Bags $ 1.61
1 Ton (40 - 50# Bags) $ 1.38
Pallet Charge $ 5.00

WTF??? That's about 100 times LESS than what Miloriganite costs! It's closer to $12.00 per 50 lb. bag.

For those prices you can afford to apply it at it's label rate and still make money. Can't do that with the Mil. Of course you have to haul 4 times the amount of product around...

treegal1
02-23-2009, 10:19 PM
no sh*t!! I am thinking about a rail-car full say 80 pallets..........

Barefoot James
02-23-2009, 11:55 PM
What great deal. How bad does it smell? usually it goes away in a few days.

I can use MY own poo doo called Louisville Green - works great. A little piece of me in every app - LOL

treegal1
02-24-2009, 12:03 AM
James how$$ is it and a link??? the more i look at this the more i want to use.............

Barefoot James
02-24-2009, 12:08 AM
www.louisvillegreen.com - $50 a ton BUT - it is not bagged in bulk. Most of the golf courses are already addicted to this stuff - even Vallhalla where they just played the Ryder Cup.

You have to have a sealed truck and yadda yadda but the shipping to FL I would think would be less than coming from WA.

Talk to Clark Finsmore and tell him the old Powerbilt guy sent you. He never remembers my name.

Barefoot James
02-24-2009, 12:12 AM
That bagged deal won't last many years. It cost about that much to bag it. They must bag on site. In Louisville they ship it to a bagger in the middle of the state - stupid and then to customers from there. I noticed they have started telling all the bulk buyers on their site they can buy it in bulk now. That used to be a under the table. But word is out and more and more folks are using. If you look at the metals and stuff straight urea actually has more than this stuff. They are getting it really figured out - they have also reduced the smell quite a bit. Last years stuff had a good oder but went away in a few days or after it was watered in. I hear this years has much less.

Prolawnservice
02-24-2009, 12:26 AM
Pharmaceuticals, fragrances,
antimicrobials, synthetic hormonal
substances

You really want to breath in the dust from 80 tons of biosolids, which more than likely include the above substances? That is a good price for bagged, our bulk price is now 50 a ton, I switched to chicken poo though.

treegal1
02-24-2009, 12:30 AM
Pharmaceuticals, fragrances,
antimicrobials, synthetic hormonal
substances

You really want to breath in the dust from 80 tons of biosolids, which more than likely include the above substances? That is a good price for bagged, our bulk price is now 50 a ton, I switched to chicken poo though.spice up some compost and do it the no dust way. and even then i wear a mask for the dirt, its like poo lung

treegal1
02-24-2009, 12:47 AM
Pharmaceuticals, fragrances,
antimicrobials, synthetic hormonal
substances
a girl has to keep up.........its called estee lauder, did you think that pink on my nails was organic:laugh:

bicmudpuppy
02-24-2009, 12:50 AM
www.louisvillegreen.com - $50 a ton BUT - it is not bagged in bulk. Most of the golf courses are already addicted to this stuff - even Vallhalla where they just played the Ryder Cup.

You have to have a sealed truck and yadda yadda but the shipping to FL I would think would be less than coming from WA.

Talk to Clark Finsmore and tell him the old Powerbilt guy sent you. He never remembers my name.

By all that is sacred and holy, what is Fenimore doing selling fertilizer again? He has spread enough of it in his day, but I thought he had retired a couple of times over by now. To bad the freight would eat me alive. That is a great product/price point. Clarke would know me, but..........

I would imagine Wilson is using more than his share of a product like that at Valhalla. Fenimore was still running KyIanna back when Mark was at Audobon. Last I knew Clarke was building golf courses with some of that crowd!

phasthound
02-24-2009, 10:19 AM
By all that is sacred and holy, what is Fenimore doing selling fertilizer again? He has spread enough of it in his day, but I thought he had retired a couple of times over by now. To bad the freight would eat me alive. That is a great product/price point. Clarke would know me, but..........

I would imagine Wilson is using more than his share of a product like that at Valhalla. Fenimore was still running KyIanna back when Mark was at Audobon. Last I knew Clarke was building golf courses with some of that crowd!

I had dinner with Clarke once, he's quite a character.
Louisville Green is one of the biosoild sources used by Nutrients PLUS.

I understand the concern some have with biosolids. Nothing is totally safe and everything in today's world is contaminated to some degree. I think it is best to balance risk and benefits. IMO, using EPA Grade A biosolids for landscape nutrient and OM is one of the best uses for a waste product that constantly is produced locally and needs to be dealt with in an environmentally sound way.

Kiril
02-24-2009, 10:24 AM
IMO, using EPA Grade A biosolids for landscape nutrient and OM is one of the best uses for a waste product that constantly is produced locally and needs to be dealt with in an environmentally sound way.

:clapping::clapping:

treegal1
02-24-2009, 10:46 AM
yes and at 1.30$ per bag for 5-4-0 its a real deal.....

DUSTYCEDAR
02-24-2009, 10:56 AM
And the secret is out

Barefoot James
02-24-2009, 10:58 AM
Mudpuppy - Clarke did build that golf course. 27 holes Quail Chase.

Still waiting for the growth to get out to that side of town - but it is moving. they do lots of business. he did sell it about two years ago when his poo business started moving pretty good. Obviously used his Supers contacts as all the munies and many high end tracks use it. Even Victoria National in Evansville and both of Fuzzies courses. The only ones that don't are the old CC's like Audobon, Hurstborne and Big Springs. No stinky for the upper crusts - LOL. But I'm using it on their yards - LOL - works too good and better than alternatives.

Did not know that about the Nutrients Plus product - Barry??? why nt just use the NJ source? Must be all the whisky we add to our poo :laugh:

treegal1
02-24-2009, 11:22 AM
And the secret is out

that's the resell$, get 120 tons at a time and its...............

phasthound
02-24-2009, 12:45 PM
Did not know that about the Nutrients Plus product - Barry??? why nt just use the NJ source? Must be all the whisky we add to our poo :laugh:

Well, I did say Clarke was one of NPLUS's sources for biosolids. In NJ, we have our own secret ingredients. :cool2:

Marcos
02-24-2009, 01:31 PM
WTF??? That's about 100 times LESS than what Miloriganite costs! It's closer to $12.00 per 50 lb. bag.



Retailers make an absolute KILLING on stuff like Milorganite!
I imagine a 50# bag of Milorganite costs no more than a dollar to produce, and probably between $2-$3 more per bag total, to package, crate, ship and display.
These types of products are precisely what the concept of "haggling with the manager" was invented for! :laugh:

Kiril
02-24-2009, 01:32 PM
IMHO, they should give the shiit away.

Marcos
02-24-2009, 01:51 PM
IMHO, they should give the shiit away.

.....spoken like a true Obama socialist!

*trucewhiteflag*

phasthound
02-24-2009, 02:21 PM
Retailers make an absolute KILLING on stuff like Milorganite!
I imagine a 50# bag of Milorganite costs no more than a dollar to produce, and probably between $2-$3 more per bag total, to package, crate, ship and display.


Do you have any University studies to document that? :)
Seriously though, the costs are higher than that to get it to the retailer. But that is where the biggest markup occurs.

Kiril
02-24-2009, 02:35 PM
.....spoken like a true Obama socialist!

*trucewhiteflag*

I think you know where you can shove your politics .............

treegal1
02-24-2009, 05:36 PM
.....spoken like a true Obama socialist!

*trucewhiteflag* typical complaint from a proletarian.................

Smallaxe
02-25-2009, 12:25 AM
This may be the opportune moment to get a dealership with Milorganite. If LG can do it , Milwaulkee can too.
Buy locally - for the - Economic situation. :)

Their prices are dropping to the point that, a local Landscaper could start a retail sideline, with good cash flow, and settle down.

The big question remains... Why can LG get 5-4-0 and Milo, gets half that?

Barefoot James
02-25-2009, 10:17 AM
5-3-0 with 4.5 unsoluble N and the 3 is really low 2's. Milo is higher N I think - like 6??

dishboy
02-25-2009, 10:39 AM
All this talk about People poop...........

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080223112253.htm

and;

http://www.hort.net/lists/community_garden/may01/msg00075.html



Not quite sure people poop is the way to go. Also it would be interesting to see the effect that the chlorine has on the micro herd?

Prolawnservice
02-25-2009, 06:47 PM
I don't know about using it on residential properties either, I don't think children or pets should be touching or playing on the stuff, but I agree that something needs to be done with it. I feel golf courses, or less occupied public land, that is maintained, may be better candidates for bio-solids. Who knows what new compounds are created when heat is applied to several different pharmaceuticals and/or chemicals, and what the effects will be to humans. That's just my opinion, someone prove me wrong because it would make me a lot more money to not believe that.

bicmudpuppy
02-25-2009, 08:31 PM
Somebody tell me I've been lied to first. I have been told since I was a pup that Milorganite, even though it says "sewage sludge" is NOT poop. It is the by product of the Milwakee breweries. It doesn't even leave the actual plant (or stays on an adjoining facility). The used hops, etc. are processed to make the fertilizer. The chlorine content is higher than a lot of products, BUT we all know how volatile chlorine is and how readily available it is. What research I have seen has shown the chlorine content to not be detrimental. None of these studies has been what I would consider conclusive, but I would tend to believe them.

phasthound
02-25-2009, 09:01 PM
Somebody tell me I've been lied to first. I have been told since I was a pup that Milorganite, even though it says "sewage sludge" is NOT poop. It is the by product of the Milwakee breweries. It doesn't even leave the actual plant (or stays on an adjoining facility). The used hops, etc. are processed to make the fertilizer. The chlorine content is higher than a lot of products, BUT we all know how volatile chlorine is and how readily available it is. What research I have seen has shown the chlorine content to not be detrimental. None of these studies has been what I would consider conclusive, but I would tend to believe them.

Milorganite is a biosolid. Who told you this crap?

treegal1
02-25-2009, 09:07 PM
IMO sewer man holes and septic systems pose more threat to the general populous than any treated bio-solid. and most trash cans are more pathogen plagued than milO or any other type of crap

bicmudpuppy
02-25-2009, 09:15 PM
Milorganite is a biosolid. Who told you this crap?

A sales guy back in the 80's. I was a kid and believed. Still did till I started reading here.

treegal1
02-25-2009, 09:21 PM
In 1913 the City of Milwaukee created a sewerage commission charged with the responsibility of cleaning up the waterways. That same year, a chemist in England was experimenting with the biosolids in sewage sludge. Air was allowed to bubble through wastewater for a period of time. When the air was turned off, and the mixture settled, the water was purified. This was the beginning of the activated sludge process.

The Milwaukee Sewerage Commission's laboratory studied the new process and formally adopted it for use on December 31, 1919. In 1921 interceptor sewers were installed to connect to municipal sewers, which enabled all wastewater treatment to be completed at a central location. Jones Island, on the shore of Lake Michigan, was chosen for that site, and in 1923 construction began on the first large scale activated sludge plant in the world. In 1974, the Jones Island Wastewater Treatment Plant was named a National Historic Engineering Site by the American Society of Civil Engineers.

The major problem with this new sewerage treatment process was the production of solids Ė the microbes left over from the treatment process. For a city the size of Milwaukee, this meant that between 50,000 and 70,000 tons of dried microbes needed to find a home. Simply land-filling this waste was expensive and wasted a valuable resource.

In the early 1900ís, the Sewerage Commission established a fellowship at the University Of Wisconsin College Of Agriculture under the direction of Professor Emil Truog to investigate uses of activated sludge as a fertilizer. O.J. (Oyvind Juul) Noer was named as the fellow to carry out the work.

Noer determined that the average nutrient analysis of the material was 6.2 percent total nitrogen, with 5.17 percent being water insoluble nitrogen (83% WIN); 2.63 percent available phosphate (P205) and 0.4% soluble potash (K20). In his literature review, Noer found that the available nitrogen generally resembled so-called high grade organic nitrogenous fertilizers and give superior growth results compared to manures and chemical fertilizers of the time.

After experimenting with field crops and vegetables, Noer experimented with the use of this organic nitrogen fertilizer on golf courses and found it superior and one-third the cost of other fertilizers commonly used at the time. Additionally, it provided two distinct advantages: first, there was no danger of burning the turf even with over-application; second, it produced a dark green dense turf without causing excessive top growth.

Initial test plots were developed at Blackhawk Country Club and Maple Bluff Country Club in Madison, Wisconsin. Plots were subsequently established in Chicago, Detroit, St. Louis, Cleveland, and St. Paul. Word spread among golf course superintendents across the country about this new organic nitrogen fertilizer, Noer knew he had a commercially viable product. In 1925, the Sewerage Commission concluded that the disposal problem they faced could be solved by producing and marketing the fertilizer.

Of course, any commercial product needed a name. In 1925, a contest to name the new organic fertilizer was advertised in the National Fertilizer Magazine. First prize was awarded to McIver and Son of Charleston, South Carolina for their entry "Milorganite," derived from MILwaukee ORGAnic NITrogEn. Now with a name and an identity, the Sewerage Commission began marketing Milorganite in late 1925. By the end of 1926, about 5,500 tons was inventoried, with orders placed for 2,500 tons.

By the mid-1930's, production hit 50,000 tons, selling for up to $20 per ton, and production could not keep up with demand. At that time, most Milorganite was sold to fertilizer companies for blending with other Nitrogen-Phosphorus-Potassium (N-P-K) sources, and very little was sold into the specialty fertilizer market.

Research continued through the mid-1930's, with Noer establishing a soils lab at the Milwaukee Metropolitan Sewerage District to aid his studies. This was the first soils lab established exclusively for turfgrass. Through his work in the lab, Noer pioneered much of the methodology used in modern labs, including sampling depths and techniques, as well as laboratory procedures. Additionally, Noer determined through clipping analysis that the basic nutrient ratio in plant tissue was 3:1:2 (Nitrogen: Phosphorus: Potassium) instead of the 1:4:2 originally thought. From these studies came the basic Milorganite fertilization recommendations. These recommendations have stood the test of time and still fit well, even in the low nitrogen fertilization programs commonly used in modern turf management regimes.


Kiril i dont need to say this was cut and paste???

Prolawnservice
02-25-2009, 09:32 PM
IMO sewer man holes and septic systems pose more threat to the general populous than any treated bio-solid. and most trash cans are more pathogen plagued than milO or any other type of crap

True, but would a responsible parent let their child play in a dirty garbage can or sewer man hole????? Its not about pathogens though!!!!

treegal1
02-25-2009, 09:44 PM
yeah I know pharms and all that stuff, i say let the herd figure it out, it cant be any worse than all the crap that they put in food (if you can call it that) and industrial products that get used in homes.

still all in all, i do try and limit the amount that gets used on kid lawns, dogs and cats wont live so long to worry about it. and most organic customers of mine treat there dogs with Imidcloprid, then pet the things.........

say what you want I will still use some sludge on most yards. NEVER FOR FOOD!!!!!!!!!

nwjt
02-25-2009, 10:24 PM
I started putting down milorganite early last season. My front yard is very hard clay. I thought by using milorganite, eventually I would add teh micro-organisms to the clay and eventually have some top soil.

I've putting it down every couple weeks, and did an application over this winter. I usually will aireate with a manual "Core" aireator and then apply it to get it down inside th clay

Am I thinking about this correctly? Is there a better way to do this?

treegal1
02-25-2009, 10:51 PM
compost!!!

fordnut
02-25-2009, 11:17 PM
tttttttttt

Pristine1
02-26-2009, 08:22 AM
OK, so the biosolids have me a little concerned now....Most of my customers have kids/pets so how bad is it to us that as a top dressing?

Check out my supplier and let me know what you think:

www.newenglandorganics.com

treegal1
02-26-2009, 08:54 AM
for most lawns it just fine, water it in( let the timer do it) and limit the use in yards with young kids, don't worry about the dogs......... they wont live that long............


you all do realize that they turn grey water into potable water, and then we drink it???

bicmudpuppy
02-26-2009, 09:02 AM
for most lawns it just fine, water it in( let the timer do it) and limit the use in yards with young kids, don't worry about the dogs......... they wont live that long............


you all do realize that they turn grey water into potable water, and then we drink it???

I would take treated grey over most of the water throughout the mid-west. Water/irrigation has been my "thing" for many years. I woud worry about the "heavies" in the water your drinking long before I would worry about a limited exposure from a surface applied lawn product. You MIGHT come in skin contact with the lawn product (and every kid eats that one handful of dirt, or they did way back when), but your DRINKING the water. Well, you are if your not filtering your house water and carrying bottles around w/ you all day.

dishboy
02-26-2009, 09:03 AM
Milorganite seems to me exactly opposite of what the Organic movement ought to be representing to the public. It may be poisoning children, pets and the chemically sensitive. Contains up to 1% chlorine which could be killing microbes and has a salt index equal to Suffer coated Urea. And does no one see that the phosphorous content is way to high for a maintenance program if you are incorporating on a regular basis or already have adequate P levels.
But it does come from a waste stream , I guess that makes it all OK. I wonder how many using this crap are telling the clients up front what they are applying and what the risks might be.

JWTurfguy
02-26-2009, 09:05 AM
I wouldn't worry as much about harmful pathogens in Milorganite as much as I would be concerned about the actual availability of nutrients and the heavy-metal content of sludges. Back in the day, there were much fewer regulations pertaining to ANY fertilizers, much less organics. Nowadays, sludges like Milorganite, Poconite, etc are put through incredibly hot temperatures to kill off any harmful pathogens. Your chances of getting E.coli from someone who didn't wash their hands properly are much greater than getting it from Milorganite.

That being said, I do still have a few reservations about it......

In order to heat-treat sludge so that there are no harmful pathogens, not only do you kill off most (if not all) of the beneficial bacteria, but the material becomes so tightly bound up that the bacteria in the soil have an incredibly hard time breaking through in order to make use of the nutrients (assuming they manage to break through at all).

Add to that the issue of heavy metals (it's true that Milorganite's heavy-metal content is below maximum allowances, but these heavy metals stay in the soil....what do you think happens after multiple apps?) and I'm not sure Milorganite, or for the matter, any sludge, is the way to go.

Check out Cornell's info sheet on Milorganite.

http://cwmi.css.cornell.edu/milorganite.pdf

I'm not saying this to bash organics at all, but in my opinion, if you're going to use organic fertilizers, spend the extra money on properly-chelated organic fertilizers that are available to the turf and don't contribute to heavy-metal buildup in the soil.

ICT Bill
02-26-2009, 09:08 AM
Milorganite seems to me exactly opposite of what the Organic movement ought to be representing to the public. It may be poisoning children, contains up to 1% chlorine which could be killing microbes and has a salt index equal to Suffer coated Urea. And does no one see that the phosphorous content is way to high for a maintenance program if you are incorporating on a regular basis or already have adequate P levels.

You make some good points
Another is: Mycorrhizae do not like Phos at all, they basically take a nap until the P levels go down. if you are trying to encourage mycorrhizal colonization on your sites do not apply P with your applications

One of the problems with a lot of the myco "packages" out there, they can't get out of the NPK mode and do not realize that you are defeating your goals by adding P to the mix

treegal1
02-26-2009, 09:25 AM
most if not ALL of these things are eliminated if the bio-solids are added into an active compost pile or blended down with other compost sources......


now lets see who knows what

Beryllium,
Coal burning, household cleaners, industrial dust, manufacturing

Cadmium,
Tap water, fungicides, marijuana, processed meat, rubber, seafood (cod, haddock, oyster, tuna), sewage, tobacco, colas (especially from vending machines), tools, welding material, evaporated milk, airborne industrial contaminants, batteries, instant coffee, incineration of tires/rubber/plastic, refined grains, soft water, galvanized pipes, dental alloys, candy, ceramics, electroplating fertilizers, paints, motor oil and motor exhaust.

Copper,
Copper cookware, copper pipes, dental alloys, fungicides, ice makers, industrial emissions, swimming pools, shellfish, perch, bluefish, lobster, walnuts, almonds, soybeans, wheat germ, yeast, beer, chocolate, corn oil, gelatin, liver, lamb, mushrooms, avocado, birth control pills.

Lead,
Ash, auto exhaust, cigarette smoke, coal combustion, colored inks, pesticides, rainwater, food cans with lead solder sealing, toothpaste, wine, manufacturing batteries, cosmetics, hair dyes, lead pipes, liver, glazed ceramics, pencils, lead-based paint, industrial emissions.

Mercury,
Dental amalgam, tunafish, swordfish, felt, algaecides, floor waxes, adhesives, fabric softeners, chlorine production, contact lens solution, preparation H, diuretics, Mercurochrome, Merthiolate, childhood vaccines.

Nickel,
Peanut butter, hydrogenated vegetable oils, margarine, imitation whip creams, kelp, oysters, herring, nickel plating, cigarette smoking, tea, batteries, wire and electrical parts.

so now the meat and metals of it,

Treatment for Heavy Metal Poisoning

The best treatment for heavy metal poisoning is chelation. Chelation is a treatment where a synthetic amino acid called EDTA (ethylene diamine tetraacetic acid) is administered intravenously. It was originally used in the 1940ís to treat solders with lead poisoning. When chelation proved to have good results the FDA approved it. When EDTA enters the bloodstream it binds to the metal atoms and flushes them out with the urine. This is usually within the first 24 hours of the chelation treatment.

EDTA chelation is used to treat such heavy metal poisonings as lead and cadmium. Lead poisoning can also be treated orally using the chelating agent DMSA (dimercaptosuccinic acid). Mercury poisoning is treated with DMPS (dimercaptopropane sodium sulfonate) which is administered intravenously. DMSA (chemet) can also be used for mercury poisoning.

The EDTA chelation IV lasts for approximately 3 hours. It is generally given weekly for a period of time based on the individual case. Kidney and liver functions are monitored every few treatments. This is because the chelation must pass out the urine with all the metals that it has collected throughout the blood stream. DMPS IV chelation therapy takes about 20 minutes.

In general after six to ten chelations the urine is again collected to see if the chelation is still removing heavy metals. If not, the chelation is stopped. If heavy metals such as lead or mercury are still present then the chelation is given another six to ten treatments and the urine test repeated at that time.

I will now take a cut and paste bow...........

Kiril
02-26-2009, 10:24 AM
Kiril i dont need to say this was cut and paste???

No, not for me (I can spot em a mile away), but you should provide a link back to the source.

http://www.milorganite.com/about/history.cfm

phasthound
02-26-2009, 10:26 AM
[QUOTE=treegal1;2802890]most if not ALL of these things are eliminated if the bio-solids are added into an active compost pile or blended down with other compost sources......
QUOTE]

Hence Nutrients PLUS blends biosolids with composted poultry manure. :)

I do understand all the concerns with biosolids. Fact is all those contaminants are present in our environment due to our social demands. Much better to concentrate on choosing to use everyday products that don't contain many of the "nasties" so they don't end up in the waste stream.

treegal1
02-26-2009, 10:32 AM
Much better to concentrate on choosing to use everyday products that don't contain many of the "nasties" so they don't end up in the waste stream. I cant say good by to my products:cry:

Smallaxe
02-26-2009, 10:49 AM
Somebody tell me I've been lied to first. I have been told since I was a pup that Milorganite, even though it says "sewage sludge" is NOT poop. It is the by product of the Milwakee breweries. It doesn't even leave the actual plant (or stays on an adjoining facility). The used hops, etc. are processed to make the fertilizer. The chlorine content is higher than a lot of products, BUT we all know how volatile chlorine is and how readily available it is. What research I have seen has shown the chlorine content to not be detrimental. None of these studies has been what I would consider conclusive, but I would tend to believe them.

http://www.milorganite.com/docs/about/how_milorganite_is_made.pdf
Here is a simple chart that highlites the activity of the Jones Island 'Water Treatment Plant'.

I think that the spent Hops is used for cattle feed, but I do not know that for sure.

Prolawnservice
02-26-2009, 10:54 AM
for most lawns it just fine, water it in( let the timer do it) and limit the use in yards with young kids, don't worry about the dogs......... they wont live that long............


you all do realize that they turn grey water into potable water, and then we drink it???

Sounds like something a chem sales guy would say, I'm not buying it.

Gray water can be directly recycled for landscape use as well, black water is a different story.

Prolawnservice
02-26-2009, 10:57 AM
You make some good points
Another is: Mycorrhizae do not like Phos at all, they basically take a nap until the P levels go down. if you are trying to encourage mycorrhizal colonization on your sites do not apply P with your applications

One of the problems with a lot of the myco "packages" out there, they can't get out of the NPK mode and do not realize that you are defeating your goals by adding P to the mix

Although off topic, I don't think that is true, I'm pretty sure they mine phos for the host. It's excessive phos that is a problem.

phasthound
02-26-2009, 11:02 AM
. I cant say good by to my products:cry:

You're such a dainty girl.

treegal1
02-26-2009, 11:05 AM
Sounds like something a chem sales guy would say, I'm not buying it.

Gray water can be directly recycled for landscape use as well, black water is a different story.
ok so dont listen to me, go look at the amounts that food contains, like fish for instance, then look at a soda, see the EDTA, thats how the metals go bye bye.

most things sold over the counter have more metals in them than bio solids and we dont really eat any sludge, most of the time we have shoes on....and the really rare kid yard just skip the sludge......maybe some grains on that one........ it all come down to limits and levels......compost has metals in it yes even veg compost!!!

Prolawnservice
02-26-2009, 11:11 AM
most if not ALL of these things are eliminated if the bio-solids are added into an active compost pile or blended down with other compost sources......
now lets see who knows what
o now the meat and metals of it,
Treatment for Heavy Metal Poisoning
I will now take a cut and paste bow...........

OK so now we know how to fix the poisoning from the heavy metal.

I don't think too many of us are going to compost it besides you, maybe eventually but the question is are biosolids ok to use as fertilizer. In my mind that means applied directly or the question would be, are biosolids OK to compost and then use the compost as fertilizer.

My issue is still the new, and existing chemical compounds. If your going to prescribe to the rational of, well its only a little chemicals and the government says its "safe and organic" or sort of, and everything is polluted already so why not because its cheap. Why not just use pesticides?

treegal1
02-26-2009, 11:57 AM
ok so as i understand it most of the parent material(sewage) is eaten in the aerated digestion phase of the process, what is left is the digestate from the sewage, the microorganisms left behind and some silt or clay particles (flock?) and a limeing agent.... then that portion is DE watered with the metals in suspension in the water, the water filtered to remove most of these, from what i know in a catalyst?? but back to the solids, the solids are then further dried in a rotary kiln at some say 500 deg?? that in my mind would cause a vaporization of some of the UN wanted chems in the now sewer slag that comes out of the kiln, its busted up and sold at size.......

no i dont trust the man!!! but i have done some reading about it and its use.......... and have some reservations my self, mostly from how its sourced, and what industry it came from. but i think that the use in low traffic lawns and ornamental is more than needed.

if you cant compost it or dont want to!!Barry is standing by, to take you order!!! he has it any way you want it..

but a road side or golf course, some of my heavy out of hand non native landscapes, with no kids and a dog i want to kick, net me get you some sludge....

now as to the customer, smart up and comers that have the Internet, i even do a brain surgeons yard, and a biochemist, and we have talked at great length about it, gone to the fert maker the water plant, the epa, surf-rider, and a host of other in the know folks in my area, just got a new source for non wet bagged bio-solids, that have almost every test under the sun. and just my vote for now, ITS sludge time for a lot of my lawns and trees. done with care and thought......

Smallaxe
02-26-2009, 12:15 PM
After years of usage on the grass I would think a tissue test would show how much heavy metals have accumulated. It seems to show up in worms right away so if there is concern about it, there would be many ways to demonstrate the effects on a lawn.

There is too much P in Milorganite for for the Mychos? After generations of pouring P onto the soil, in huge amounts, we now have too much in the Milor.
Bag the clippings for one summer and see how much P you have left.

At some point we have to think that - we are overthinking this way too much. :)

Kiril
02-26-2009, 12:23 PM
At some point we have to think that - we are overthinking this way too much. :)

Perhaps in some cases, in others, perhaps not. Sludge use as seen by one tree hugger organization. ;)

http://www.sierraclub.org/policy/conservation/LandApplicationSewageSludge.pdf

We can debate this till the cows come home ... however we continue to dodge the real issue ... WTF do we do with the shiit? :laugh:

JDUtah
02-26-2009, 12:45 PM
WTF do we do with the shiit? :laugh:

My vote is an Arc Reactor.

dishboy
02-26-2009, 01:04 PM
Perhaps in some cases, in others, perhaps not. Sludge use as seen by one tree hugger organization. ;)

http://www.sierraclub.org/policy/conservation/LandApplicationSewageSludge.pdf

We can debate this till the cows come home ... however we continue to dodge the real issue ... WTF do we do with the shiit? :laugh:

Ship it to Florida and compost it, the local labor has read the data , assessed the risk and deemed it safe to use as long as you never let children, pets on site or plan on removing the turf in favor of growing a garden. Note: compost workers will be supplied with proper respirators and rubber suits so that risk in handling is minimal.

Smallaxe
02-26-2009, 01:43 PM
The next time I am asked to help change a diaper, I will hand them the proper respirators and rubber suits. :laugh:

I saw on PBS a manmade swamp which grew poplar trees. The sewage water would enter from one end and potable water exitted the other end. That was probably the most sensible method I've seen.
Start removing the trees for toothpicks after 20 years and test the compost for what ever one might suspect.

dishboy
02-26-2009, 02:11 PM
The next time I am asked to help change a diaper, I will hand them the proper respirators and rubber suits. :laugh:

I saw on PBS a manmade swamp which grew poplar trees. The sewage water would enter from one end and potable water exitted the other end. That was probably the most sensible method I've seen.
Start removing the trees for toothpicks after 20 years and test the compost for what ever one might suspect.

The whole statement was tongue in cheek :laugh:

DUSTYCEDAR
02-26-2009, 02:56 PM
Oh boy ..................

treegal1
02-26-2009, 03:19 PM
Ship it to Florida and compost it, the local labor has read the data , assessed the risk and deemed it safe to use as long as you never let children, pets on site or plan on removing the turf in favor of growing a garden. Note: compost workers will be supplied with proper respirators and rubber suits so that risk in handling is minimal. don't stop there, where we, from what i have been told, used almost 300 million tons of the stuff to feed orange trees and cattle pasture for the last 20 years............

we also grow tomato's and sugar with it, well i come to find out my father was using bio-solids well into the 50's for food crops!!! no not me, but it is a widely used practice from what i am told.


JD the really nasty parts of the stuff that come out of my area is slated for power, plasma gasification or something like that.........the sh*t will become a commodity soon.......

JDUtah
02-26-2009, 03:39 PM
JD the really nasty parts of the stuff that come out of my area is slated for power, plasma gasification or something like that.........the sh*t will become a commodity soon.......

That'd be it. Crazy cool if you ask me.

treegal1
02-26-2009, 04:00 PM
its just up the road as i am now just finding out about it, very new...... learning some heavy stuff today about this sludge......

seems we have a local power house in the industry that pointed me too a fert co that is huge from what i am told, and they are big into bio solid as a fert base, for NPK blends, seems thats the inert material that they use[?], any ways they have this stuff in bulk that is less than dirt cheap and at the quan. I am getting. I am i big player( how did that happen??), so i get the tour on Tuesday after the invasion commences on Friday......they said that they even have some data that is independent and reviewed

dishboy
02-26-2009, 04:07 PM
Sounds like they are spraying water solubles onto bio as it spins and then dry it. Ran across a couple patent applications on that this winter. Looked like it would be easy to duplicate for those into bridge products.

treegal1
02-26-2009, 04:20 PM
they got there bridge built and then some, they don't say any thing about organic, its just fert to them, they got blood spray dyed, fish meal( for food for fish or any thing you want) pellets of every thing under the sun, organic blended fert in pellets that does not say anything about organic till you get a spec sheet. odd, like they don't want to sell to you if you don't ask for just the rite thing??? that and they have all sorts of NPK fert ingredients, mined stuff, you name it. and if you can dream it up they can get and make label what ever you want, 300 tons at a time:dizzy:

I think the part that caught me off was they don't see organic or traditional fert, like we do they just see, chemicals,er oh, stuff, parent materials, oh whats the word... nutrients that's it that's all they see. for plants animals, humans, its just nutrients.... it was far out, a lake sized holding tank for molasses( what for is beyond me )

DUSTYCEDAR
02-26-2009, 07:02 PM
lake sized holding tank for molasses
ITS GLUE

Smallaxe
02-26-2009, 08:25 PM
...I think the part that caught me off was they don't see organic or traditional fert, like we do they just see, chemicals,er oh, stuff, parent materials, oh whats the word... nutrients that's it that's all they see. for plants animals, humans, its just nutrients.... it was far out, a lake sized holding tank for molasses( what for is beyond me )

Only nutrients and parent material... The word you may be looking for is Soylent Green. :)

treegal1
02-26-2009, 08:52 PM
ration wafers. yes!!! they are not that bad, its a bunch of old farm types that got smart a long time ago..... and some new science types. real nice folks and they have never said anything but good about organics, but i think that they also see it as a change in the way things are done. he did stress recycled and no input harvest.....

JFGLN
03-05-2009, 12:56 AM
Picked up my free Ton last week. They seem to have a good supply of it.