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View Full Version : Manifolds systems vs systems with single valves


thelawnkid
02-21-2009, 03:39 AM
I am not a stranger to irrigation. Most of my experience is in repairs but I do have a decent amount of experience in installs. But I have never designed a system. I do have a design that I am working on for my parents house and have done alot of research, but I also know that its my first design and that stuff does not always work as planned. I am kinda wanting to go with a manifold type system as opposed to having lots of small valve boxes all over the place. What do you all prefer and why so. I do understand that both have their places but what do you prefer and why.

AI Inc
02-21-2009, 05:46 AM
typicaly guys that trench do single cans. guys that pull do manifolds.
Im a manifold guy myself.

irrigationgrl
02-21-2009, 06:04 AM
I have never done anything other than manifolds. I haven't seen any installed that way around here.

Dripit good
02-21-2009, 06:39 AM
Why commit to one or the other when you can have the best of both worlds?

Three here, two there, one there, three around the corner........

Put 'em where they won't be an eye sore.

AI Inc
02-21-2009, 06:52 AM
Why commit to one or the other when you can have the best of both worlds?

Three here, two there, one there, three around the corner........

Put 'em where they won't be an eye sore.

Kinda the way I do it. Put em where ya need em. We typicaly have at least 1 at the POC and 1 at the clock ( ext) fill in as needed.

FIMCO-MEISTER
02-21-2009, 07:01 AM
A-1 got it. Pulling use manifolds. Trenching use cans and single valves. Try to locate the valve in its area of operation and split the zone with as close to half the flow on each side of the valve. Use bullhead fittings right out of the valve into the section line ditch. 6" VBs, single strand 14 ga wire with plenty of slack in the box. Coil wire to give it that finished professional look.

Dripit good
02-21-2009, 07:08 AM
A-1 got it. Pulling use manifolds. Trenching use cans and single valves. Try to locate the valve in its area of operation and split the zone with as close to half the flow on each side of the valve. Use bullhead fittings right out of the valve into the section line ditch. 6" VBs, single strand 14 ga wire with plenty of slack in the box. Coil wire to give it that finished professional look.

I always do that with 14 ga. Wrap it around my large index finger for the nice pro look. Make's life easier for the person tracking (when the time comes). Get a stronger reading too.

Sprinkus
02-21-2009, 08:02 AM
After those years of pizza and beer I now HAVE "man-i-folds". :cry:
And yup, AI said it the best.

ed2hess
02-21-2009, 08:47 AM
typicaly guys that trench do single cans. guys that pull do manifolds.
Im a manifold guy myself.

Don't see any manifolds in Texas area. I am curious how that works when you got 36 stations on a commericial property stretching along long roadways? Since you "pull" and don't dig trenches how do you get 36 pipes together?

AI Inc
02-21-2009, 08:56 AM
I would do a series of 10" cans with 2 valves in each 1 zone going in either direction. Keep in mind in live in rotor world up here. We install 40 rotors to every 3 sprayers around here.

AI Inc
02-21-2009, 08:58 AM
here is a simple resi

AI Inc
02-21-2009, 09:02 AM
and another

AI Inc
02-21-2009, 09:02 AM
All the pipe in the job above was installed with 2 men in 1 -1/2 hrs.Wire included

DanaMac
02-21-2009, 09:03 AM
here is a simple resi

Ooohhh... what software designed and printed that. :)

hoskm01
02-21-2009, 09:03 AM
We trench and manifold. Personal preference.

AI Inc
02-21-2009, 09:04 AM
Hand drawn and scanned baby, Im old school

DanaMac
02-21-2009, 09:08 AM
Hand drawn and scanned baby, Im old school

Different colored crayons for different zones.

TRILAWNCARE
02-21-2009, 09:40 AM
Hand drawn and scanned baby, Im old school

Is that drawn to scale. Do you use a compass or caliper to check for head to head coverage, or just hope?

Drawing circles with a compass were the head will spray, gives it that real professional look. :laugh:

FIMCO-MEISTER
02-21-2009, 09:41 AM
Hand drawn and scanned baby, Im old school

Texas has banned old school. Can't inspect pulled pipe so we won't be seeing that anytime soon either.

AI Inc
02-21-2009, 09:59 AM
Is that drawn to scale. Do you use a compass or caliper to check for head to head coverage, or just hope?

Drawing circles with a compass were the head will spray, gives it that real professional look. :laugh:

No I use my measuring wheel and experiance to check for coverage. These are just as builts for my own use for future service and or add ons.

Wet_Boots
02-21-2009, 10:06 AM
When the first lawsuits show up over trip-and-fall incidents in Texas trenches left open for inspection, we will see what we will see.

DanaMac
02-21-2009, 10:07 AM
We manifold here. But on bigger systems it might be 3-4 manifolds spread throughout the lawn. Valve boxes are usually in the rock or mulch areas. I detest the single round or the any valve box in the turf.

DanaMac
02-21-2009, 10:07 AM
When the first lawsuits show up over trip-and-fall incidents in Texas trenches left open for inspection, we will see what we will see.

I agree. Did Texas talk with OSHA about this first?

Mike Leary
02-21-2009, 10:13 AM
No I use my measuring wheel and experiance to check for coverage. These are just as builts for my own use for future service and or add ons.

It does not matter if you did it with CAD or a colored pencil, the important thing is you have something for reference down the road; amazing how fast valve boxes disappear into the mulch! :clapping:

FIMCO-MEISTER
02-21-2009, 10:14 AM
Texans, unlike our current leadership in Washington D.C., can think, walk, and chew gum at the same time. May be many eons before a real Texan trips from a ditch. Now the transplants? Could be an issue.

Wet_Boots
02-21-2009, 10:17 AM
If there are OSHA regulations about open trenches, then they could override anything Texas might legislate.

FIMCO-MEISTER
02-21-2009, 10:20 AM
If there are OSHA regulations about open trenches, then they could override anything Texas might legislate.

Research and tell us .........quit surmising

Wet_Boots
02-21-2009, 10:24 AM
Screw research. Takes me back to the bad old days of the beginning of the requirements for toxic-rated backflow, when towns still had ordinances requiring DCVAs. Nobody's happy.

FIMCO-MEISTER
02-21-2009, 10:28 AM
Screw research. Takes me back to the bad old days of the beginning of the requirements for toxic-rated backflow, when towns still had ordinances requiring DCVAs. Nobody's happy.

Don't want to research? Don't surmise........

Mike Leary
02-21-2009, 10:35 AM
Screw research. Takes me back to the bad old days of the beginning of the requirements for toxic-rated backflow, when towns still had ordinances requiring DCVAs. Nobody's happy.

Nice avatar, happy fellow. And I agree.

Wet_Boots
02-21-2009, 10:39 AM
Nice avatar, happy fellow. And I agree.Thanks for the avatar idea.

Kiril
02-21-2009, 11:55 AM
Manifolds here centrally located with respect to the hydrozones served.

Mike Leary
02-21-2009, 12:08 PM
Here's one of ours.

Wet_Boots
02-21-2009, 12:09 PM
Got any closeups of the insulation-piercing clips?

Mike Leary
02-21-2009, 12:13 PM
Nope, don't know if we've ever used them as piercers. That is the output from a RM clock, by the way. Thanks for not noticing the brick.

Kiril
02-21-2009, 12:24 PM
Nope, don't know if we've ever used them as piercers. That is the output from a RM clock, by the way. Thanks for not noticing the brick.

..... or the pea gravel. :laugh:

Mike Leary
02-21-2009, 12:28 PM
..... or the pea gravel. :laugh:

There's fine mesh screen below the gravel; a attempt to keep the moles out. They eventually get in, don't do much harm except fill the boxes. I did have one finally last year where they did some serious chewing. :dizzy:

Kiril
02-21-2009, 12:36 PM
I don't much care for pea gravel, although I have used it from time to time.
My dislike stems from losing screws/bolts and the hassle when doing major repairs.

Mike Leary
02-21-2009, 01:25 PM
I don't much care for pea gravel, although I have used it from time to time.
My dislike stems from losing screws/bolts and the hassle when doing major repairs.

It doth not matter what's in the bottom if you drop something! :cry:

irrig8r
02-21-2009, 01:36 PM
typicaly guys that trench do single cans. guys that pull do manifolds.
Im a manifold guy myself.

Not here. In my observations, folks who use inline valves and RPZs or PVBs tend to manifold less than those who use A/S valves.

In larger yards, where a looped mainline (or just one that goes a long distance) goes to hose bibs as well, then there might be three to five A/S valves in a manifold and a few of those around the yard.

It kinda depends on how far wire runs have to go too.

Oh, and nobody around here I know of uses any method other than trenching.

irrig8r
02-21-2009, 01:39 PM
It doth not matter what's in the bottom if you drop something! :cry:

I always make sure that there is enough extra wire so that if removing a solenoid or bonnet with solenoid still in place, you can lift the whole thing out of the box and onto a drop cloth or box lid or something to help avoid lost parts.

irrig8r
02-21-2009, 01:41 PM
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I always do that with 14 ga. Wrap it around my large index finger for the nice pro look. Make's life easier for the person tracking (when the time comes). Get a stronger reading too.

Index finger? Really?

Piece of 1/2" pipe for a more uniform coil...

Mike Leary
02-21-2009, 02:02 PM
I always make sure that there is enough extra wire so that if removing a solenoid or bonnet with solenoid still in place, you can lift the whole thing out of the box and onto a drop cloth or box lid or something to help avoid lost parts.

It's all moot if you spot your boxes like this: these are large by Texas standards.

thelawnkid
02-21-2009, 02:34 PM
I guess I never thought about the pulling vs trenching thing on the manifolds. Part of the reason I like manifolds is cause every thing is grouped together in a few locations and it is not a pita to find stuff. While we are talking about manifolds anyone use pre made manifolds like the duraplastics ones?

Mike Leary
02-21-2009, 02:45 PM
While we are talking about manifolds anyone use pre made manifolds like the duraplastics ones?

I've always used them (see earlier pic). Spears & Lasco make them, prolly Dura makes them for Toro, but I've NEVER had a problem with them.

Wet_Boots
02-21-2009, 02:53 PM
You can build better than you can buy, when it comes to manifolds.

Mike Leary
02-21-2009, 02:55 PM
You can build better than you can buy, when it comes to manifolds.

Parts are cheaper than labor, Oblio.

Wet_Boots
02-21-2009, 03:07 PM
Better. Stronger. More desirable attributes than cheaper. Besides, one can always knock out their own manifold 'modules' during slack time.

Mike Leary
02-21-2009, 03:23 PM
Better. Stronger. More desirable attributes than cheaper. Besides, one can always knock out their own manifold 'modules' during slack time.

Only pikers have slack time. The rest is zircon-incrusted lumpy gravy.

Kiril
02-21-2009, 03:33 PM
It's all moot if you spot your boxes like this: these are large by Texas standards.

That has got to be the most idiotic ............. :hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead:

Kiril
02-21-2009, 03:35 PM
Parts are cheaper than labor, Oblio.

Dude, really man. Have you looked at your controller wiring pic lately? :rolleyes:

Mike Leary
02-21-2009, 03:35 PM
That has got to be the most idiotic ............. :hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead:

Yup, prolly a IA approved design. :cry:

Mike Leary
02-21-2009, 03:50 PM
Dude, really man. Have you looked at your controller wiring pic lately? :rolleyes:

Has it been that long for a RM pic? I'll look for a special one, just for you.:rolleyes:

ARGOS
02-21-2009, 03:52 PM
Just don't go with the completely assembled box. A good idea that doesn't work.

Olson Boxes (http://www.olsonirrigation.com/PROD/OISWW/OISww4.html)

Mike Leary
02-21-2009, 03:56 PM
Just don't go with the completely assembled box. A good idea that doesn't work.

One of the dumbest inventions ever. I wonder how many techs have had to repair what would be a simple fix, and find everything hard-piped through the box! Did you put one in and learn the hard way, Argos? Come on, tell the truth.

ARGOS
02-21-2009, 04:11 PM
When I first saw them I thought it was a great idea. The first service call I had on one was a simple solenoid. Not so simple. Parts are near impossible to find and the solenoid plugs into a spot on the side of the box. I called olson and they told me of some supplier that could mail a solenoid to me, but when I called him he didn't want to bother. I ended up splicing in an RB DV solenoid. The second time I was called on a repair of one of these boxes it had six valves in the vb. There was a leak in one of the bonnets, I couldn't make out where the leak was coming from because it was under the bonnet that the main line connected to. It was a pretty serious leak. I called olson and they had no support options. I ended up replacing the whole box.

Kiril
02-21-2009, 04:14 PM
Thank god for custom built manifolds using standard parts .... regardless of what the old fart says. :laugh:

mitchgo
02-21-2009, 04:16 PM
Just don't go with the completely assembled box. A good idea that doesn't work.

Olson Boxes (http://www.olsonirrigation.com/PROD/OISWW/OISww4.html)

I Hate those things... I Can't believe those are even made.
Is that the one that the wiring is actually inside the the plastic of the box designed so you can plug the solenoid into the box?

thelawnkid
02-21-2009, 04:17 PM
Those do look like a real pain to work on. Glad I have never had to deal with one of those.

FIMCO-MEISTER
02-21-2009, 04:20 PM
Why don't we pummel them with emails requesting they remove the product from the market?

ARGOS
02-21-2009, 04:29 PM
It was overengineered by someone that had the concept, but hadn't been in the trenches.

Mike Leary
02-21-2009, 04:45 PM
Why don't we pummel them with emails requesting they remove the product from the market?

Go to your room, you forget they're not stellar forum members that buy that crap.

ed2hess
02-21-2009, 04:55 PM
Let me try this again. I got a property that is a half mile long with media in between both sides. And there is sidewalks along each side seperated from curb. We trench the entire distance on both sides and in middle for the 2 1/2" water source line. If I start grouping 4 valves together now I have to deal with all the pipe in the trench for long distance. So I would have one 2 1/2" pipe and maybe 4 more 1 1/2 inch pipes. Finding a valves is not as difficult as fixing breaks with 5 pipes in the trench? What am I missing......:confused:

Wet_Boots
02-21-2009, 05:02 PM
Let me try this again. I got a property that is a half mile long with media in between both sides. And there is sidewalks along each side seperated from curb. We trench the entire distance on both sides and in middle for the 2 1/2" water source line. If I start grouping 4 valves together now I have to deal with all the pipe in the trench for long distance. So I would have one 2 1/2" pipe and maybe 4 more 1 1/2 inch pipes. Finding a valves is not as difficult as fixing breaks with 5 pipes in the trench? What am I missing......:confused:2-wire control

Mike Leary
02-21-2009, 05:09 PM
Let me try this again. I got a property that is a half mile long with media in between both sides. And there is sidewalks along each side seperated from curb. We trench the entire distance on both sides and in middle for the 2 1/2" water source line. If I start grouping 4 valves together now I have to deal with all the pipe in the trench for long distance. So I would have one 2 1/2" pipe and maybe 4 more 1 1/2 inch pipes. Finding a valves is not as difficult as fixing breaks with 5 pipes in the trench? What am I missing......:confused:

We're talkin' residential here, pal. When we did the big boys, the valves got spotted in 12" standards, alone,with spare wire and future stub-outs provided. Most specificiers still call for unions, which has proved to be a waste of money over the years.

DanaMac
02-21-2009, 06:04 PM
You're talking commercial style project. PVC with single valves in the zone area.

Mike Leary
02-21-2009, 06:08 PM
You're talking commercial style project. PVC with single valves in the zone area.

Yup, valve at zone.

EagleLandscape
02-21-2009, 09:42 PM
Kiril, what do you use in the vb's other than pea gravel. thats all we use, and mandated by code here. no moles to mess with thankfully.

Mike Leary
02-21-2009, 10:15 PM
Kiril, what do you use in the vb's other than pea gravel. thats all we use, and mandated by code here.

Concrete..makes the re-do last through the winter.

EagleLandscape
02-21-2009, 10:19 PM
Concrete..makes the re-do last through the winter.

is this enough to go under a vb? just poured this two days ago. 95 yards

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=136671&stc=1&d=1235129732

Mike Leary
02-21-2009, 10:23 PM
is this enough to go under a vb? just poured this two days ago.

Kiril uses more steel under his manifolds, when he remembers to install them. Good looking footings, John, is that your crew?

EagleLandscape
02-21-2009, 11:10 PM
No, its a concrete sub contractor I hired to pour my shop and extend my driveway to it.

Guy compacted, trenched, ran steel, & poured a 2000 sq slab AND 1000 sq ft driveway for $4800 in labor.

Not bad at all.

Those are post tension cables, not sure if they use that technology where you're at, but its big here. Labor costs are alot lower, than traditional rebar slabs, but materials are more expensive. Cost savings is still greater on a post-tension engineered slab, than traditional rebar slab on grade.

36" exterior beam, 30" interior beams, 5" thick floor, it's not going anywhere. Hoping to finishing payments on the building this month so I can get it shipped up here. Need to get it built, and equipment in there before the spring rains come. (or i wont get anything done)

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=136669&stc=1&d=1235129694

Mike Leary
02-21-2009, 11:26 PM
No, its a concrete sub contractor I hired to pour my shop and extend my driveway to it. Not bad at all.

I like your style, helped the economy, prolly did not pimp the sub, so you got a great job, have a sub that will be of help down the road, work and reference-wise. Too bad the pikers don't take note.

EagleLandscape
02-21-2009, 11:30 PM
Yes, he is a quality guy. Only subs I use are ones I get from supply houses (this one from a concrete ready mix company), and I only want their highest recommended sub. Prices are always good, if they are in new construction. They wouldnt be high in demand if their prices were outrageous. I scrapped the company I used for my house, I'm tangled up in a lawsuit with them right now. I'm just glad I am the plaintiff in the case.

I have a decent sized install (150k+) to start in march, 50k is just concrete demo and new pour. It will be a nice project to get going to the season. However, I just did billing for Feb, and this was our biggest billing month ever for maintenance. This year is looking great. Just trying to identify my costs, and how to be competitive in this brutal market. Trying to learn a lot more about people (customers). Anyone can push a mower or fix a sprinkler, this industry is a people business.

Mike Leary
02-21-2009, 11:36 PM
Anyone can push a mower or fix a sprinkler, this industry is a people business.

In the big picture, management and proper crew training goes hand in hand.

Kiril
02-22-2009, 02:11 AM
Kiril, what do you use in the vb's other than pea gravel. thats all we use, and mandated by code here. no moles to mess with thankfully.

If not pea gravel then 3/4 crush.

hoskm01
02-22-2009, 02:23 AM
Here's one of ours.
Off center and above grade.


Where did we go wrong with you, Mike?