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View Full Version : Hustler Super Z hydro overhaul ?


HenryB
02-21-2009, 11:22 AM
I've read several posts about people having hydro/wheel motor problems with their Super Z (myself included). Someone stated the 21cc pumps may cause overheating. Could the 21cc pumps be replaced with 16cc pumps for more torque, less groundspeed, lower temps and less problems.

ricky86
02-21-2009, 12:25 PM
What problems are you having?

HenryB
02-22-2009, 03:35 PM
What problems are you having?

Serious lack of torque, bogs in high grass and burnt up wheeel motors:cry:

Tommy Boy
02-22-2009, 03:41 PM
Hey, we replaced a pump and a wheel motor with just a lil over 1000 hours, I will never buy Hustler again. Good luck, I'll watch the post for response, but poor dealer support and I think we got taken on the wheel motor replacement.

puppypaws
02-22-2009, 03:51 PM
Serious lack of torque, bogs in high grass and burnt up wheeel motors:cry:

Tell me what size engine you are running and I will explain what is happening to your hydraulics.

HenryB
02-22-2009, 03:56 PM
Tell me what size engine you are running and I will explain what is happening to your hydraulics.

I've had 2 1st 24hp Honda 2nd 27hp Kohler. I really loved both of them just too many issues. I also think the 21cc hydros overwork the engine hence why I'd like to to see 16cc used.

Tommy Boy
02-22-2009, 04:06 PM
25 HP Kaw, Super Mini Z

ricky86
02-22-2009, 05:05 PM
Are those Parker wheel motors or Hydrogear wheel motors? Both sides weak? What do you mean ''Burnt up"?
I've seen quite a few problems with Hydrogear motors , but the Parkers are close to bullet proof.

HenryB
02-22-2009, 05:42 PM
Are those Parker wheel motors or Hydrogear wheel motors? Both sides weak? What do you mean ''Burnt up"?
I've seen quite a few problems with Hydrogear motors , but the Parkers are close to bullet proof.

Pumps are hydrogear the wheel motors are White.

JimQ
02-23-2009, 10:50 AM
The short answer to your question is absolutely yes.

It's not a direct drop in though. The PW (21cc) pump is physically larger than the PR (16cc) PR pump. The mounting flange on the 21cc is larger than the 16cc. The swap would require some fabrication work.

Q

puppypaws
02-23-2009, 12:33 PM
I've had 2 1st 24hp Honda 2nd 27hp Kohler. I really loved both of them just too many issues. I also think the 21cc hydros overwork the engine hence why I'd like to to see 16cc used.

I don't know this for a fact, but if I had to guess; you are mowing sloped terrain with plush, fast growing moisture laden grass. This has a tendency to pull the rpm's down, just not enough engine power for those conditions with the larger pumps. When the rpm's are not running to full operating capacity or a little above such as mine, the proper cooling cannot take place. Anything causing a drop in engine rpm's takes away from the engine and hydraulics cooling ability, this in return shortens the engine and hydraulic components usable life.

Hustler makes the exact mower you are looking for, it is the Super Z High Torque model. It is the Super Z with ATZ wheel motors, heavier built wheel motors with more torque and a top speed of 11 mph.

I cut southern grass on flat terrain, therefore I can utilize the top 15 mph speed a great deal of the time with no rpm drop. This enables my components to remain cooler than the same mower cutting in heavy moisture laden grass with any slope at all. With the big pumps it does not take very much slope with heavy grass to really pull the proper operating rpm's down. This is where the hydraulic problems come into play from excessive heat build up.

A number of people don't seem to realize, air cooled is exactly what it says, cooled by air. This is why it is so important to maintain your top operating rpm's, the more air you move at a faster speed across and through your components the cooler they function, producing longer usable life.

ricky86
02-23-2009, 06:44 PM
What happened to the pump and wheel motor? I think the whole idea of using the larger pump is to keep input shaft RPM's down (cooler running) while moving more oil (than a smaller cc pump) to keep the ground speed up.
Maximum operating temp for the wheel motor is about 210 degrees. Average operating temp is about 180.
What happened to the pump and wheel motor?

HenryB
03-07-2009, 06:44 PM
The short answer to your question is absolutely yes.

It's not a direct drop in though. The PW (21cc) pump is physically larger than the PR (16cc) PR pump. The mounting flange on the 21cc is larger than the 16cc. The swap would require some fabrication work.

Q

Do you know if the shafts are the same size? Otherwise I'd need new pulleys as well?. I like the Super Z so much. I've just had bad luck with wheel motors and to me they lack torque. This is why I'd like to experiment a bit. The machine is oldr so I'm willing to take a chance.

djagusch
03-07-2009, 08:06 PM
According to Hydro Gears website they offer different sizes and without actually having one in my hands I don't think most would tell. I would just go to a dealer and measure them on the show floor, easy to get at. It's just not the shaft size though the OD is also important for the correct belt and hydro rpm. Other way to find out is to look at parts diagrams and see if they have dimensions or the same part number.

I talked to the warranty rep at the distributor today and asked about hydro failures. On their end they don't see any unusually rate of failure for the Super Z. He did say he has had a few customers go through a couple after visiting the company's they observed the guys jabbing the levers instead of easing them. They could increase the dampeners so a person can't do that but the majority are not having any issues.

He suggested to the company's to go to the HT model as it's only $100 more MSRP and is made to it doesn't cause the issue when jabbing at the levers.

He used to work for my dealer 10 plus years ago and stops by on the weekend just to B/S so he didn't have the corporate hat on when we were talking.

MJB
03-07-2009, 08:12 PM
I've read several posts about people having hydro/wheel motor problems with their Super Z (myself included). Someone stated the 21cc pumps may cause overheating. Could the 21cc pumps be replaced with 16cc pumps for more torque, less groundspeed, lower temps and less problems.

Henry I had mine replaced under warranty and they ended up putting in a heavier wheelmotor , by that I mean a larger shaft. This seemed to improve the torque issues some and I have had no problems since. This is the new fix on all the new Super Z's I believe. Talk to your dealer or factory rep to see what they now recommend.

Green King
03-07-2009, 08:32 PM
I talked to my dixie dealer who use to build bladerunners about this same issue on the super z! He said the pump is not the real issue it is the wheel motor! A larger CID wheel motor will drop temp's and reduce the strain on the larger pumps! He also said dropping on the pumps will gain nothing but lost speed if the wheel motors stay the same! The Smaller pumps would however increase power to the mower deck but would not be that noticeable with the 16 pump! He gave me an example of the everride warrior which uses the 16 pump and it too just like my super z is very lacking in power! He suggested that I replace my wheel motors with 24cid motors and I would be much happier! Or just replace the mower which is probably going to happen real soon!

gene gls
03-07-2009, 09:22 PM
I had my Super Z changed over to the ATZ pump and wheel motors a few years ago. Big differance, but the 25HP Kawi is still not big enough for the 60" deck.

puppypaws
03-08-2009, 10:03 AM
I had my Super Z changed over to the ATZ pump and wheel motors a few years ago. Big differance, but the 25HP Kawi is still not big enough for the 60" deck.

Been there and done that with the 25 Kawi, not nearly enough for a Super Z.
But in your situation there should have been a noticeable difference in torque with the switch over and the slower speed. This should in reality have made the 25 feel stronger, the higher mowing speed pumps and motors really suck the power.

gene gls
03-08-2009, 11:32 AM
Been there and done that with the 25 Kawi, not nearly enough for a Super Z.
But in your situation there should have been a noticeable difference in torque with the switch over and the slower speed. This should in reality have made the 25 feel stronger, the higher mowing speed pumps and motors really suck the power.

There is not that much differance in speed, but the torque is much better. Its still faster than what I need.

puppypaws
03-08-2009, 02:36 PM
There is not that much differance in speed, but the torque is much better. Its still faster than what I need.

That is odd, there should be a very noticeable difference in speed. You went from a 15 mph mower to a 9 mph ATZ mower setup. Why are you not seeing a large difference in the speed category, I know the torque is a great deal better?

The Super Z I run will absolutely fly. You may be cutting plush moisture laden grass that slowed the faster Super Z down to the point of the slower higher torque setup.

HenryB
03-08-2009, 03:23 PM
I'd rather 10cc pumps for more torque. I would not mind the loss of speed. Ideally I'd like to try a 16cc pump. But I'm not sure they will work with the Super Z wheel motors.

gene gls
03-08-2009, 10:47 PM
That is odd, there should be a very noticeable difference in speed. You went from a 15 mph mower to a 9 mph ATZ mower setup. Why are you not seeing a large difference in the speed category, I know the torque is a great deal better?

The Super Z I run will absolutely fly. You may be cutting plush moisture laden grass that slowed the faster Super Z down to the point of the slower higher torque setup.

I would say the speed is closer to 12 MPH. Very seldom go full stick, never while mowing, just transit.

puppypaws
03-09-2009, 12:50 AM
I would say the speed is closer to 12 MPH. Very seldom go full stick, never while mowing, just transit.

They must not be ATZ motors and pumps, this is straight out of the specs.

QUOTE:

TRACTION DRIVE SYSTEM
Type Dual hydrostatic. Individual pumps power two
direct-drive wheel motors. Hydrostatic system operates
on 10W40 motor oil. Transmission drive (oil) cooler for
increased system life.
Pumps Two variable displacement, axial-piston type.
Each Hydro-Gear BDP21 pump powers one
drive-wheel motor.
Pump Drive V-belt drive from engine crankshaft
Final Drive Direct-drive, high-torque wheel motors. One
White RC 26 motor for each drive wheel.
Filter 25 micron, spin-on type
Ground Speed Infinitely variable:
0-9 mph (0-14.48 kph) forward
0-5 mph (0-8.05 kph) reverse

gene gls
03-09-2009, 08:24 AM
They must not be ATZ motors and pumps, this is straight out of the specs.

QUOTE:

TRACTION DRIVE SYSTEM
Type Dual hydrostatic. Individual pumps power two
direct-drive wheel motors. Hydrostatic system operates
on 10W40 motor oil. Transmission drive (oil) cooler for
increased system life.
Pumps Two variable displacement, axial-piston type.
Each Hydro-Gear BDP21 pump powers one
drive-wheel motor.
Pump Drive V-belt drive from engine crankshaft
Final Drive Direct-drive, high-torque wheel motors. One
White RC 26 motor for each drive wheel.
Filter 25 micron, spin-on type
Ground Speed Infinitely variable:
0-9 mph (0-14.48 kph) forward
0-5 mph (0-8.05 kph) reverse

My Hustler dealer did the change. I asked for the ATZ pumps and wheel motors. I have no idea as to what I recived for parts. Its got more torque than before, its not quite as fast as before. It still could use more torque. I can live with it.

JimQ
03-09-2009, 10:44 AM
Do you know if the shafts are the same size? Otherwise I'd need new pulleys as well?.

Hydro-Gear does have shaft options but a 17mm keyed shaft is pretty much standard. Another shaft option is length. 1" or 2". You'll need the 2".

I just happened to have a Super Z pump pulley sitting here on my desk. It fits a 17mm shaft.

139136

Q

puppypaws
03-09-2009, 12:54 PM
My Hustler dealer did the change. I asked for the ATZ pumps and wheel motors. I have no idea as to what I recived for parts. Its got more torque than before, its not quite as fast as before. It still could use more torque. I can live with it.

If you get a chance ask him exactly which pumps and motors he used as parts normally installed on which Hustler mower from the factory? I would truly be interested in knowing. If he tells you they were the ATZ pumps and motors, ask him, or show him the specs where these only generate 9 mph and see what he has to say?

gene gls
03-10-2009, 12:46 PM
If you get a chance ask him exactly which pumps and motors he used as parts normally installed on which Hustler mower from the factory? I would truly be interested in knowing. If he tells you they were the ATZ pumps and motors, ask him, or show him the specs where these only generate 9 mph and see what he has to say?

Pump # 788042, Wheel Motor # 789339.......$ 3696.05 for the compleat job, includes tax and shipping of parts.

puppypaws
03-11-2009, 09:21 AM
Pump # 788042, Wheel Motor # 789339.......$ 3696.05 for the compleat job, includes tax and shipping of parts.

I asked PJ and he is finding out what causes the speed difference between the ATZ and the Super Z HT. Your setup is the HT model which is an 11 mph mower, this is why you notice only a small difference in speed. The ATZ is only a 9 mph mower, which is considerably different. This is what PJ had to say.

QUOTE:

The 788042 pump is used on our Super Z's including the HT and ATZ models it is a 21cc Hydro Gear pump.

The 789339 wheel motor is used on the ATZ and HT Super Z's only and is a White RC-26 wheel motor.

Your question is a good one, I am assuming it is a linkage adjustment, but I will ask those in the know and find out for you.

Pj

HenryB
03-11-2009, 10:34 AM
Pump # 788042, Wheel Motor # 789339.......$ 3696.05 for the compleat job, includes tax and shipping of parts.

This price is why hydro repairs scare me. Also why I feel purchasing a used mower with no warranty for top dollar is foolish.

JimQ
03-11-2009, 11:27 AM
Hey Pup,

After a quick look through the parts manuals, It looks like the Super Z, Super Z HT, and ATZ all share the same engine pulley (783761) and the same pump pulleys. (782466). They share the same tire size (24"x12-12) although they are a different tread pattern. The only thing left is engine RPM and adjustment of the control linkage.

Maybe the speeds of the ATZ, Super Z, and Super Z-HT were estimates given from Engineering to a guy in the Marketing department and they went into print from there. I can see how that would happen.

We purchased a 2008 Super Z new from dealer. I personally measured the top speed. It measured 12.7mph. There is a photo below of the setup I put together to measure machine ground speed. It's basically 2 optical gates placed a fixed distance apart. A small PLC tracks the time it takes for the machine to pass through both gates and calculates the MPH. It's pretty simple but works well.

"Estimating" speed while on the machine is a hard thing to do. 13mph doesn't "feel" much different than 11mph?

I'm not here to tell you that Super Z's don't go 15mph. I'm only saying the one we got didn't. Maybe the engine RPM was low, maybe the pump linkage wasn't fully stroking the pumps. Who knows.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for Hustler and the Super Z. I like their equipment and I think their positioning them selves very well in the market.

Let's us know what you hear from PJ. I curious to know.

Q

RonAyersMotorsports
03-11-2009, 12:35 PM
Puppy Paws has got it down pat. If you continue to have Hydralic issues. You obviously need to be purchasing the HT high Torgue models. Cooler running hyrdalics that handle the slopes and hills better. Sorry if your dealer did not make you aware of it. I don't know why dealers in hilly terrain don't stock and push more of the HT models.

puppypaws
03-11-2009, 02:16 PM
Hey Pup,

After a quick look through the parts manuals, It looks like the Super Z, Super Z HT, and ATZ all share the same engine pulley (783761) and the same pump pulleys. (782466). They share the same tire size (24"x12-12) although they are a different tread pattern. The only thing left is engine RPM and adjustment of the control linkage.

Maybe the speeds of the ATZ, Super Z, and Super Z-HT were estimates given from Engineering to a guy in the Marketing department and they went into print from there. I can see how that would happen.

We purchased a 2008 Super Z new from dealer. I personally measured the top speed. It measured 12.7mph. There is a photo below of the setup I put together to measure machine ground speed. It's basically 2 optical gates placed a fixed distance apart. A small PLC tracks the time it takes for the machine to pass through both gates and calculates the MPH. It's pretty simple but works well.

"Estimating" speed while on the machine is a hard thing to do. 13mph doesn't "feel" much different than 11mph?

I'm not here to tell you that Super Z's don't go 15mph. I'm only saying the one we got didn't. Maybe the engine RPM was low, maybe the pump linkage wasn't fully stroking the pumps. Who knows.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for Hustler and the Super Z. I like their equipment and I think their positioning them selves very well in the market.

Let's us know what you hear from PJ. I curious to know.

Q

PJ, will come back with the correct information, I hope, to clear up the speed difference.

I really like the device you engineered to check travel speed. That would be wonderful in my opinion for personal knowledge alone. I ran my 15 mph Super Z side by side with a 15 mph Bad Boy AOS and they were exactly tit for tat at the end of an approximate 800' run. I would think there would be something off with a Super Z running no faster than 12.7 mph.

gene gls
03-11-2009, 02:32 PM
I asked PJ and he is finding out what causes the speed difference between the ATZ and the Super Z HT. Your setup is the HT model which is an 11 mph mower, this is why you notice only a small difference in speed. The ATZ is only a 9 mph mower, which is considerably different. This is what PJ had to say.

QUOTE:

The 788042 pump is used on our Super Z's including the HT and ATZ models it is a 21cc Hydro Gear pump.

The 789339 wheel motor is used on the ATZ and HT Super Z's only and is a White RC-26 wheel motor.

Your question is a good one, I am assuming it is a linkage adjustment, but I will ask those in the know and find out for you.

Pj

This change was done in 2005, long before I heard anything about a HT model. I was not aware of Hustler using two differant hydro systems on the ATZ units. I was told that my unit would be much slower and was expecting more torque than what I got. I have never demoed the ATZ unit to see the differance. But then again, if I demoed an ATZ unit that is set up the same as my unit, there would be no differance. Ever sence I had my unit changed, I have never understood How Hustler could advertise the ATZ as the best hill machine on the market because mine still needed more torque. I got rid of my steep properties so my unit is adiquite.

puppypaws
03-11-2009, 07:06 PM
This change was done in 2005, long before I heard anything about a HT model. I was not aware of Hustler using two differant hydro systems on the ATZ units. I was told that my unit would be much slower and was expecting more torque than what I got. I have never demoed the ATZ unit to see the differance. But then again, if I demoed an ATZ unit that is set up the same as my unit, there would be no differance. Ever sence I had my unit changed, I have never understood How Hustler could advertise the ATZ as the best hill machine on the market because mine still needed more torque. I got rid of my steep properties so my unit is adiquite.

This is a very strange scenario. You are right, if you had the change made in 2005 there was no Super Z High Torque. I will try and find out what was done to pick up the speed because that is definitely the ATZ pumps and wheel motors according to PJ. I really want to understand the difference because the ATZ is a very high torque 9 mph mower and the HT is a higher torque 11 mph machine. To get the 11 mph I feel assured you gave up some torque the ATZ model would have.

Coastline Lawn
03-29-2009, 03:38 AM
This change was done in 2005, long before I heard anything about a HT model. I was not aware of Hustler using two differant hydro systems on the ATZ units. I was told that my unit would be much slower and was expecting more torque than what I got. I have never demoed the ATZ unit to see the differance. But then again, if I demoed an ATZ unit that is set up the same as my unit, there would be no differance. Ever sence I had my unit changed, I have never understood How Hustler could advertise the ATZ as the best hill machine on the market because mine still needed more torque. I got rid of my steep properties so my unit is adiquite.
Would you be wiling to look on your invoice and tell me what they charged you for the pumps and motors individually? What were the labor charges??

gene gls
03-29-2009, 12:35 PM
Would you be wiling to look on your invoice and tell me what they charged you for the pumps and motors individually? What were the labor charges??

2 - pumps $ 703.76 ea.
2 - wheel motor $ 568.75 ea.
2 - drums $ 58.31 ea.
1 - RH brake assy $ 65.33
1 - LH brake assy $ 65.33
6.5 qt 10-W-40 oil $ 3.50 ea
7.5 hrs labor at $ 68.00 ea.
Shipping $ 195.00
Total - with tax, $ 3696.05

Coastline Lawn
03-29-2009, 12:39 PM
Thankyou very much...