VTS, what to charge?

[ksss]

I was curious, now that I have the VTS on my 440. How much are you VTS guys charging for the tracks over what you charged for a wheeled machine? Has anyone put a cost per hour on upkeep? I am hoping that $5.00 an hour would cover the tracks and the VTS upkeep. It is likely worth more simply because it is more productive than wheels in a lot of conditions. Not sure what the local market will be willing to give in this market.

[AWJ Services]

It is likely worth more simply because it is more productive than wheels in a lot of conditions.

Good point.From a CTL owner you need to use the tracks where they will be advantageous.I feel that in grading, heavy digging and wet conditions they will save you time which if billed by the job it will make you a higher dollar an hour return on the equipment.
I personally feel that my CTL in the conditions I use it in will generally get the job down 35% to 50% faster than a comparable wheeled machine.

I am anxious to see if it speeds your jobs up in your conditions?

[ksss]

Good point.From a CTL owner you need to use the tracks where they will be advantageous.I feel that in grading, heavy digging and wet conditions they will save you time which if billed by the job it will make you a higher dollar an hour return on the equipment.
I personally feel that my CTL in the conditions I use it in will generally get the job down 35% to 50% faster than a comparable wheeled machine.

I am anxious to see if it speeds your jobs up in your conditions?

As am I. I ran it the other day just pushing snow. VTS says you lose about a 1 mph. I found that to be, by feel, pretty accurate. I will say just in the little amount of time I spend on it, that without 2 speed, I would be kinda bummed. I have become accustomed to flying around and with the VTS in low speed your not going to be flying around. High gear helps.

Once Spring thaw occurs the VTS will likely be very helpful. After that and the high desert environment takes over, probably not as helpful as for the guys that are always running in muddy conditions. I bought to run primarily in the 3/4 road base material with the laser grader, but I don't see pulling it on and off. My 465 still has wheels so I will like try and match the machine to the job. We also have a lot of rock so my costs per hour maybe higher than what others would see.

[Gravel Rat]

What is your hourly rate for a wheeled skid ?

As I have mentioned a wheel skid steer is usless in my area because of the terrian you need tracks. I can't remember what the only contractor here charges for his CTL but I think it is something like 65 dollars per hour. He can do jobs that can't be done with a wheeled skid.

I would think it would depend on your area you will have to prove to homeowners that the addition of tracks is worth the higher hourly costs.

Here if you hire a wheeled or rent a wheeled skid steer you might aswell flush your money down the toilet. Yes tracks cost more in maintenance but if your getting double or tripple the work because of having tracks its worth every penny.

Years ago one of the landscapers had a old CASE skid with steel over the tires tracks the machine went anywhere but boy did it chew up the ground and they were mainenance pigs.

[ksss]

What is your hourly rate for a wheeled skid ?

As I have mentioned a wheel skid steer is usless in my area because of the terrian you need tracks. I can't remember what the only contractor here charges for his CTL but I think it is something like 65 dollars per hour. He can do jobs that can't be done with a wheeled skid.

I would think it would depend on your area you will have to prove to homeowners that the addition of tracks is worth the higher hourly costs.

Here if you hire a wheeled or rent a wheeled skid steer you might aswell flush your money down the toilet. Yes tracks cost more in maintenance but if your getting double or tripple the work because of having tracks its worth every penny.

Years ago one of the landscapers had a old CASE skid with steel over the tires tracks the machine went anywhere but boy did it chew up the ground and they were mainenance pigs.


Last year I charged $75 for the 440. I will bring it down to $70.00 this year as long as diesel stays cheap.

[dirtybiz]

ksss, Most of our work is done on a bid basis, so i usually bid it figuring on using a wheeled machine and more time, then if i have my tracked machines avail. and they are needed for that job i use one and the time it is needed is usually dramatically less so it typically works out. Unless, i have early spring and late fall jobs, or jobs that i know i will need tracks due to conditions/typography, then i go ahead and add to use the tracked machine.

I was thinking along the same lines you were though, probably $5-10 extra per hour, if you bill out that way. Any more than that i think you will have a hard time convincing clients that it is worth the extra money, even though you and i know they would probably money ahead.

Keep us posted on the vts, i am too very anxious to use mine some more this spring!! Now if i can just find a wider bucket/land plane :(.

[mrsops]

I rarely charge by the hour most of the time its either a half day or a full day. for my wheeled skids its 500 a day 300 for a half day, and for my track units like my t190 or my mini excavators its 650 a day 325 for a half day. But the way people are cut thoarting out here left and right i have to go down to 600 a day for my track units sometimes.

[Gravel Rat]

Wow thats a d*mn good price per hour for a wheeled skid steer, crap you would have worn out knees in your pants to get that kind of rate here.

I guess you will have to test your market and try prove to the customers that you can do the job quicker or easier with the tracks. Tracks don't make the job in most cases quicker but it sure does make things go allot more smoothly or the job can be done where the wheeled skid can't.

Like I said for us here you need tracks even if a wheeled skid possibly do the job your still better off with tracks. There are places on one job where not a problem with a wheeled skid but the last part of the job no way jose.

[AWJ Services]

I will also add that if you need to go fast you do not need tracks.
That is not where they excell.

[bobcat_ron]

I was charging $65 per hour for my T190 and I still broke even on up keep on the tracks after 800 hours.
$5 extra is a good starting rice, but $8 is still better, $10, is just too much.

[Gravel Rat]

I agree with Ron I would say 5 dollars extra per hour is pretty good you are already getting really good hourly rate just for a wheeled skid. I converted 70 dollars per hour to CND and it comes to 88 dollars per hour.

The skid steer business is profitless here you couldn't make enough money to pay for the machine. If a building contractor needs one they rent one. I don't know how any guys tried going into the skid steer business and end up loosing money. But that is just the way it goes some machines just don't work well in different types of terrian. Very few houses new construction houses can you even roll a wheelbarrow around.

[iron peddler]

it doesn't matter how cheap you got the vts for...you better charge like it is a ctl/mtl... you will have some extra cost somewhere down the line...as far as two speed and vts....it has been an issue on my end as far as warranty and repair...you need to remember that with tracks you should get common grade jobs done faster...close to 2 to 1, so make sure you are covering any future costs of repair or upgrades...don't be scared to charge more just learn to use the track system more efficently.

[Gravel Rat]

I think once KSSS gets used to running on tracks the other power tan machine will be getting them.

I have meantioned this before aswell. There was a contractor doing a new waterline install they had a Cat CTL on the job for half of the job then it was taken to another job so a Cat wheeled skid was brought to the waterline job.

Lets just say the wheeled skid was alot more clumsy it definatly didn't move as smooth and as fast as the tracked skid. It was a good comparision and after seeing it, it really sold me on the tracked skid steers. Yes you may get some more wear running tracks on pavement but the wheeled skid left more black marks on the pavement than the track machine. The Cat CTL all you heard was the clicky clicky sound of the drive sprocket. The wheel skid it was the scraping of tires and the sound of a skid steer lurching around on dry pavement.

[stuvecorp]

In a perfect world I would be able to charge more but I try to get 75 an hour, I also get a lot of 'clicks' after I say that. I agree that you should be getting more for the maintenance or future maintenance costs of the VTS. I try to not work on hourly type deals but it seems to be what everyone wants.

I thought I would miss the two speed more than I did.

[AWJ Services]

Anyone who charges by the hour is asking for it.
I mean if charging jobs by the hour was the right way to do it then why not everyone buy T190's?
Jobs would take forever and we would maximise the profit.:drinkup:

[Gravel Rat]

With money being tighter than a you know what people want to be buy the hour. It is actually safer being by the hour especially when the homeowner is running out of money. You know its bad when you have the homeowner sitting in the bush watching seeing how much time you are actually working.

Not kidding there has been homeowners watching from a distance with binoculars.

You would have a very very tough time getting paid for a job if your charging say 300 dollars for half a day especially with a skid steer. Skid steer rental from a rental shop is 250 for a full day.

It is why I say the skid steer business is profitless too easy to rent a skid steer now you can rent tracked skid steers.

[AWJ Services]

With money being tighter than a you know what people want to be buy the hour. It is actually safer being by the hour especially when the homeowner is running out of money. You know its bad when you have the homeowner sitting in the bush watching seeing how much time you are actually working.

Thats why you live at home with your parents and I actually own my own buisness.
The odds are against you especially at 65 an hour Canadian.Thats like 50 an hour American?

[stuvecorp]

Anyone who charges by the hour is asking for it.
I mean if charging jobs by the hour was the right way to do it then why not everyone buy T190's?
Jobs would take forever and we would maximise the profit.:drinkup:

. :laugh:

[KRtraxx]

I was curious, now that I have the VTS on my 440. How much are you VTS guys charging for the tracks over what you charged for a wheeled machine? Has anyone put a cost per hour on upkeep? I am hoping that $5.00 an hour would cover the tracks and the VTS upkeep. It is likely worth more simply because it is more productive than wheels in a lot of conditions. Not sure what the local market will be willing to give in this market.

From what I have seen cost wise ksss I think your about right on the money at 5 bucks an hour for tracks and expense..But like you say theres always variables depending on the conditions its used in.

[stuvecorp]

With money being tighter than a you know what people want to be buy the hour. It is actually safer being by the hour especially when the homeowner is running out of money. You know its bad when you have the homeowner sitting in the bush watching seeing how much time you are actually working.

Not kidding there has been homeowners watching from a distance with binoculars.

You would have a very very tough time getting paid for a job if your charging say 300 dollars for half a day especially with a skid steer. Skid steer rental from a rental shop is 250 for a full day.

It is why I say the skid steer business is profitless too easy to rent a skid steer now you can rent tracked skid steers.

It was easier when there wasn't so many rental places but watching homeowners try to do something is priceless entertainment.

[Gravel Rat]

When they started renting skid steers here that killed any hope of a skid steer business instantly. When a homeowner or building contractor can rent a skid steer for 250 a day that is cheaper than what any contractor trying to be in the business could work for.

Like I said I'am not joking homeowners sit in a out of sight place the contractor thinks the homeowner is gone for the day. I know one building contractor charged a hour extra the homeowner refused to pay it.

When money is tight people pinch the pennys your bill is closely looked at if the homeowner thinks your charging too much good luck in getting paid.

Anything to do with construction its fight and more fighting to get paid. You can be honest as the day is long your going to get screwed. You work on COD once the job is done you get paid go to the truck write up a bill and give it to the homeowner and wait for a check. No I will mail you a check B.S. you want a check now.

If there was any profit in running a skid steer there would be more contractors with them.

The most common renter of a skid steer is a building contractor they rent one for moving drain rock around a site. Like I said before in my area there is lots of homeowners with their own mini excavators or backhoes. They buy a machine do their work the machine has paid for itself.

[ksss]

The majority of what I do is bid, but even for bid jobs you need to have a basis for what the machine bills out at. There is no way contractors at least here would allow the half day/full day billing. Homeowners maybe you could pull that off with. Here if its hourly, than its hourly.

I will likely bill it out at $75.00 an hour and see what happens. It sure makes the machine a lot bigger. The thing looks like a small Abrams sitting in my shop. Also I got it mostly cleaned up MRSOPS I will take a photo of the inside. Dirty is there anything going on up on the Hill?

[Canon Landscaping]

I think once KSSS gets used to running on tracks the other power tan machine will be getting them.

I have meantioned this before aswell. There was a contractor doing a new waterline install they had a Cat CTL on the job for half of the job then it was taken to another job so a Cat wheeled skid was brought to the waterline job.

Lets just say the wheeled skid was alot more clumsy it definatly didn't move as smooth and as fast as the tracked skid. It was a good comparision and after seeing it, it really sold me on the tracked skid steers. Yes you may get some more wear running tracks on pavement but the wheeled skid left more black marks on the pavement than the track machine. The Cat CTL all you heard was the clicky clicky sound of the drive sprocket. The wheel skid it was the scraping of tires and the sound of a skid steer lurching around on dry pavement.

I agree I don't know why anyone moving dirt or doing grading with a skid would want tires. I run my ctl on pavement, shot rock and spread a lot of gravel and our tracks are holding up good.

If you add up the cost of tires vs wheels the added production is well worth it.

Operating Cost based on 800 hours a year machine financed for 5 years does not include depreciation. Prices are from cat dealer last week.

Wheel machine 272c $41,000 Payment 773X12 9,276
Tires 2 sets 1,600
13.60 per hour

Ctl 289c $52,000 Payment 981X12 11,772
Tracks 4,000
19.70 per hour

Lets assume you get 50% more production out of the track machine. This may vary. So you would need to run the 272 1200 hours to do the same work the 289 could do in 800 hours.


272c & operator & fuel 1200hrs x 33.6 =40,320
289c & operator & fuel 800hrs x 39.7 =31,760

You save 8,560 a year with the ctl if you bid all of your work.

That is not counting the extra days you can work with a ctl when it is wet.

Or the cost of flat tires and not being able to do jobs because you are limited by your tires.

And you will save money with less trips to the jobsite.

The Ctl can also replace a dozer on small jobs.


I am not sure my math or numbers are right, this is just a guess.

[stuvecorp]

I would love to hear about a 465 with VTS on. What would that bill out at(or what should it)? Shane, you mentioned before you don't really run the 465 on 'hourly' type deals, how much more does it(465) deserve?

[mrsops]

The majority of what I do is bid, but even for bid jobs you need to have a basis for what the machine bills out at. There is no way contractors at least here would allow the half day/full day billing. Homeowners maybe you could pull that off with. Here if its hourly, than its hourly.

I will likely bill it out at $75.00 an hour and see what happens. It sure makes the machine a lot bigger. The thing looks like a small Abrams sitting in my shop. Also I got it mostly cleaned up MRSOPS I will take a photo of the inside. Dirty is there anything going on up on the Hill?

I want to see those pics ksss :laugh:... All last week I had rentals for contractors and builders I rarely ever do homeowner rentals.. Monday,tuesday, and wendnesay I dug driveways,curbs, and I dug a lot for pvc piping around the houses. 3 days worth of work for my cat 305 total charge $1900.. Thursday I Had my machine go out digging fence posts for a local fence company with my bobcat s205 and my auger attachment (and yes the ground was frozen what a pain) total charge for that was $550. Friday worked a half a day back filling a foundation with my 205 total charge $300. So basically i did $2750 in rentals last week..

[Gravel Rat]

The cost of tires isn't cheap and having flat tires isn't fun either. Maybe where you guys have no sharp rock tires are fine. Here rocks can be naturally sharp it can gash a sidewall on a truck tire wide open.

Another problem we have where I'am a shop that can repair tires is a hour away and they are usually busy. So if you end up with a flat and it needs repairing your day is pretty much shot. If you need a new tire completely plan on waiting a couple days.

When I used to run rubber tired hoe you always had to becareful one spin on a sharp rock your doing tire damage.

[AWJ Services]

Here if its hourly, than its hourly.

So is that time on the hour meter or while you are at the job?

[ksss]

So is that time on the hour meter or while you are at the job?

More less while on the job. It just depends. I just try to be fair. I have a min. for each machine on a job of 2 hours.

[Gravel Rat]

For contractors here hourly is soon as the the machine hits the jobsite. When your the employee of a contractor and you have a machine on the site and your the operator you keep track of the time you used the machine. It is what the contractor uses to bill the customer. So if your running a excavator and driving a gravel truck in the same day you keep track of that.

Here you run the hoe load the truck you take the truck and deliver the load or what ever your doing. A hoe operator MUST be a truck driver if you don't have a CDL to operate a tandem axle dump your not employeed. You also have to keep track of if you have a break down because your also the mechanic another job requirement if you can't pull wrenches hit the road your not much use to a contractor.

I used to get in chit all the time because I would forget how many hours I would be running each machine. I could be driving truck,running excavator,running the rubber tired hoe all in one day. You could use the rubber tired backhoe for 30 mins on a customers job and get charged for a hour.

After trying to remember all the hours you run each machine you have to keep track of how many hours you worked. It was also important that in the morning that you showed up to the jobsite on time. Also you never greased a machine before you start work homeowners do not pay for you to grease a machine.

[AWJ Services]

Fair to who?

I came from an industry that was hour based.
The hours always seem to be based in the customers favor.

If you leave your house at 7am and get home at 7pm the you need to get paid for 12 hours plain and simple.
If you need to go and do one hour of machine time for a contractor and it will eat up a half a day then do you only charge 2 hours?

I am not picking on you KSSS. You are very succesful so you are billing accordingly.
People really dwell on the hourly rate to much.Putting things in perspective.

[ksss]

I would love to hear about a 465 with VTS on. What would that bill out at(or what should it)? Shane, you mentioned before you don't really run the 465 on 'hourly' type deals, how much more does it(465) deserve?


The 465 and the 95XT before that is really a great piece of gear for running attachments and moving material. As I have often said that working it by the hour is really doing yourself a disservice. Conversely on bidded jobs it makes you a lot money. Thats why I use mine on many jobs like a small wheel loader for the bigger dirt moving jobs. Add the VTS to the 465, add to the fact that the 465 has a factory standard 2 speed, I can only imagine what you could do with one. It would be worth IMHO about $90-95 an hour in Idaho potato dollars, you would have to do your own conversion. The other thing is they are not easy on fuel. I don't know that you could get that but it would be worth it.

With my 440 now 80" in width and my 465 at 72" if I keep the wheels flipped in, I will be using it for a lot of the smaller, harder to access jobs that I usually did with 440. We pull a lot of concrete for school dist. and other contractors. I use the 440 for all of that. Now that machine has tracks I will use the 465. As I said I will have to rethink the way I do things somewhat. I am betting Dirty Biz will also.

[ksss]

I agree I don't know why anyone moving dirt or doing grading with a skid would want tires. I run my ctl on pavement, shot rock and spread a lot of gravel and our tracks are holding up good.

If you add up the cost of tires vs wheels the added production is well worth it.

Operating Cost based on 800 hours a year machine financed for 5 years does not include depreciation. Prices are from cat dealer last week.

Wheel machine 272c $41,000 Payment 773X12 9,276
Tires 2 sets 1,600
13.60 per hour

Ctl 289c $52,000 Payment 981X12 11,772
Tracks 4,000
19.70 per hour

Lets assume you get 50% more production out of the track machine. This may vary. So you would need to run the 272 1200 hours to do the same work the 289 could do in 800 hours.


272c & operator & fuel 1200hrs x 33.6 =40,320
289c & operator & fuel 800hrs x 39.7 =31,760

You save 8,560 a year with the ctl if you bid all of your work.

That is not counting the extra days you can work with a ctl when it is wet.

Or the cost of flat tires and not being able to do jobs because you are limited by your tires.

And you will save money with less trips to the jobsite.

The Ctl can also replace a dozer on small jobs.


I am not sure my math or numbers are right, this is just a guess.


Interesting numbers. The depreciation on CTLs of all makes is stiff. MTL's are near worthless on the used market.

The other issue is this. Not every job benefits from tracks. This I think is very important. If your working on pavement or hard packed earth or doing jobs that don't need or utilize the advantages of the tracks, the machine is now costing you more in depreciation due to the higher dep. costs of tracked machines. Increased track wear in these conditions will also increase your costs.

I don't think a CTL is across the board the best machine for everyone. Many who thought that when the CTL craze first started were quickly dissillusioned. I think a little more thought has to go into the decision, everyones operation is different.

[AWJ Services]

I don't think a CTL is across the board the best machine for everyone.

I posted earlier that if you need speed then a CTL is not your machine.If you find the second speed is a must have then the CTL is not your best choice.
Sure my CTL has a second speed but if you are not taking advantage of the added traction, more stable platform and added stability then it is a waste of money as Ksss has said.

[stuvecorp]

The 465 and the 95XT before that is really a great piece of gear for running attachments and moving material. As I have often said that working it by the hour is really doing yourself a disservice. Conversely on bidded jobs it makes you a lot money. Thats why I use mine on many jobs like a small wheel loader for the bigger dirt moving jobs. Add the VTS to the 465, add to the fact that the 465 has a factory standard 2 speed, I can only imagine what you could do with one. It would be worth IMHO about $90-95 an hour in Idaho potato dollars, you would have to do your own conversion. The other thing is they are not easy on fuel. I don't know that you could get that but it would be worth it.

With my 440 now 80" in width and my 465 at 72" if I keep the wheels flipped in, I will be using it for a lot of the smaller, harder to access jobs that I usually did with 440. We pull a lot of concrete for school dist. and other contractors. I use the 440 for all of that. Now that machine has tracks I will use the 465. As I said I will have to rethink the way I do things somewhat. I am betting Dirty Biz will also.

People would freak when you say 95 for a skid but if they would understand the extra productivity of it...

[iron peddler]

surely you don't tell a customer what you are charging per hour? in the back of your mind you can think per hour....quote the job not your hourly rate, it is tough to make money if you are stuck to a time clock...tires or tracks it doesn't matter...on a dirt job if you can't work faster with tracks vs tires, then maybe you should let someone else to the job...

[ksss]

surely you don't tell a customer what you are charging per hour? in the back of your mind you can think per hour....quote the job not your hourly rate, it is tough to make money if you are stuck to a time clock...tires or tracks it doesn't matter...on a dirt job if you can't work faster with tracks vs tires, then maybe you should let someone else to the job...



All of that is true, but sometimes you have no choice. Bidding is usually the best way to make money, sometimes though due to the type of job you have to go by the hour. Not always a money maker, or maybe seldom a solid money maker, but at at times it can save you from losing money.

[Gravel Rat]

Home owners want to know your hourly rate you won't be getting any jobs if you don't tell them. When you bid the job you tell them the hourly rate and the estimated time to do the job. You always estimate the time longer than its going to be and tell the homeowner it may take longer.

[AWJ Services]

This is is why being good at running equipment does not equate to being good at running a buisness.

Never let the tail wag the dog.

[iron peddler]

i don't buy that reasoning...do you ask a roofer his hourly rate? do you ask a foundation guy what it will cost to build your basement per hour? bottom line is total cost, it is up to the contractor on how he wants to tell the client...it never sounds good to say it may take me 3 hrs at x per hr, tell them for you i can do it for x dollars.....pay yourself and for your machine plus whatever profit and everyone wins.

[ksss]

i don't buy that reasoning...do you ask a roofer his hourly rate? do you ask a foundation guy what it will cost to build your basement per hour? bottom line is total cost, it is up to the contractor on how he wants to tell the client...it never sounds good to say it may take me 3 hrs at x per hr, tell them for you i can do it for x dollars.....pay yourself and for your machine plus whatever profit and everyone wins.


Again I agree, however for whatever reason some one somewhere priced excavation by the hour. I have often done just as you outlined, sometimes they want an hourly rate and sometimes you have to give them one. Roofers tend to work by the "square", framers by the square foot and excavators might also work by the square foot, but you have to be ready with an hourly rate as well. I remove concrete, dig foundations, prep concrete by the square foot, however when it comes time for change orders or additional work they want an hourly rate. Sometimes like I said, the job is all jacked up and working by the hour is the safest way to protect yourself and make some money.

[iron peddler]

well if that is the case, at least to a plus 8.00 per hour and protect the total investment.

[Gravel Rat]

Excavating is different from other trades building a house is bid at 200 dollars a square foot

Maybe where you guys are you can bid a job because its close to the same digging all over your territory.

What we have here is diffrent all over in the area. One place it could be easy digging job then you get a job in the same area 1/2 a kilometer down the road and it can become a nightmare. Most places you dig down 12 to 36 inches your into solid rock.

When you hit solid rock and it requires blasting the homeowner better be prepared to pay 1000 to 10,000 in blasting. Even digging a simple trench can be a pain you could be going along good and you hit a solid rock ledge that needs to be blasted.

It is always cost plus on doing jobs around here because if you have to do blasting or haul in a extra 50-100 yards of material to get a driveway installed.

When you are a contractor here you be prepared for encountering solid rock under the dirt. You have to do the job by the hour because you may bid the job and it turns out its taken you 2-3 days longer than you expected.

A homeowner always gets told minimum 1 day even if the job takes couple hours.

You end up with delays like when the gravel truck gets stuck in the driveway or you have problems getting the truck into the place. Its time consuming when your pulling the truck with a cable hooked to the machine. There are times you have to make the road bigger just to get access so you spend 1/2 a day rebuilding the road just to do a days job.

You can also have problems with tree removal if there isn't enough room to drop a tree coventionally you have to get some tree climbers in to take the tree down in chunks.

Dealing with rock is the biggest delay especially when your doing site prep start digging the foundation hole and your not going to get a full basement unless you blast. You run into problems a engineer has to get involve now your looking at a week to two week delay.

If you bid any job your taking a huge risk because if you run into the un-knowns boy are you going to loose big time.

The only time something is bid is if its a easy job like spreading some topsoil etc.

[minimax]

I get $85 per hour for a deere CT322 and it is a 8300 LB machine about the same size as the case 440.I also charge 2 hours min. and make about of money because of that.I do a lot of jobs that are two hours or less( have done some as short as 15 minutes),If you group jobs like that together,as many as 5 to 8 in a 10 hour day I make more that the guy working 8 hours in one spot.
minimax

[iron peddler]

minimax understands my point, if you think in the per hour world you will never get out of that world.

gravel rat on the other hand, has explained many times that he lives in the hardest area to get work, do work and get paid for work.

[stuvecorp]

I get $85 per hour for a deere CT322 and it is a 8300 LB machine about the same size as the case 440.I also charge 2 hours min. and make about of money because of that.I do a lot of jobs that are two hours or less( have done some as short as 15 minutes),If you group jobs like that together,as many as 5 to 8 in a 10 hour day I make more that the guy working 8 hours in one spot.
minimax

I have not had much luck with the minimums, people have gotten kinda whiny when being told that they have to pay so much for me to do it. I try to explain travel. Just not worth it from what I have experienced.

[Gravel Rat]

You have to have a minimum or a move in charge. Most contractors do have a minimum of 2 hours. The move in charge would depend on how far you have to go. Sometimes a contractor will tell a homeowner if they are in the area they will do the job if they can wait. If they can't wait then they get the minimum charge.

[AWJ Services]

Customers are trained by us.They learn what they know from us.
We teach them how to pay and what is acceptable.
Basically when I hear things like have been posted here it is from poor business practices. We always give more information than needed.
If a customer does not want to pay a minimum and no contractor will work without one then the customer will have no choice but to pay it if he wants the work done.
However there is always some knucklehead who is a poor businessman who ruins it for everyone.
I faced the same with my area.I refused to work under there rules.They have no idea what it takes to run my business so why should they dictate the rate?
Sure I sit at home alot but I am still making similar money and work a whole lot less making it.
The only rate I have that is predetermined is my per day rate for machine use by other contractors.I have a half day rate and whole day rate.

[YellowDogSVC]

The majority of what I do is bid, but even for bid jobs you need to have a basis for what the machine bills out at. There is no way contractors at least here would allow the half day/full day billing. Homeowners maybe you could pull that off with. Here if its hourly, than its hourly.

I will likely bill it out at $75.00 an hour and see what happens. It sure makes the machine a lot bigger. The thing looks like a small Abrams sitting in my shop. Also I got it mostly cleaned up MRSOPS I will take a photo of the inside. Dirty is there anything going on up on the Hill?

Aside from track maintenance, what type of drive train wear can you expect from the VTS? Seems that $5 would be a little low if you are in harsh conditions or on rock most of the time.

Do you get the same per hour for the 465 and the 440 with VTS? I have found consistency easier for folks to swallow since I have so many attachments and two different machines for reducing brush. for example, for low flow or regular flow attachments I charge about $85-$87.50 per hour (tree shear, grapple, auger, grader, etc) and for high flow attachments I ask $125/hr (stump grinder and mulcher). When I ran tracks I was definitely more productive with dirt work vs. a wheeled machine. Though I didn't charge more per hour for tracks, I probably should have or I would finish quicker than the next guy and thus get paid less due to being more efficient.

It may be a tough call until you see how the tracks hold up and how much dirt you can move with it versus your wheeled machine and competitors. I have always liked the look of the VTS so I'm real curious to hear how they hold up in the rocky conditions you encounter.

[YellowDogSVC]

minimax understands my point, if you think in the per hour world you will never get out of that world.

gravel rat on the other hand, has explained many times that he lives in the hardest area to get work, do work and get paid for work.

Good point, however, I use the per hour like KSSS does so you have a cost-basis for your bids. Most of us that have done this for a while have a good feel for how long most jobs will take (but not all jobs). Some I just have to do by the hour and I explain to the customer that it is better for them in the long run.
I also have a policy for existing/repeat customers that, if I can work them in, I will be happy to go do an hour or two to help them out. I tried the minimum thing and that worked better for first time customers. After that, I found myself being very helpful even if it was only for $150 and I didn't make good use of the rest of the day BUT I kept a customer happy, kept a competitor off their property, and generally get a referral and a friendship in exchange.

I'm real curious to see how a VTS stacks up against a wheeled machine in dry or rocky conditions. The concept is great and if a good per hour wear and tear number can be found then they can be priced just like any other attachment.

[AWJ Services]

It is quite odd that I very rarely ever base my bid off of machine time.
Maybe I am losing work?

[ksss]

I also have a two hour min. if the work is local. That min. time is essential, especially on something like the roller. An hour on a twin drum covers a lot ground. So strictly hourly on that would not be a good deal. I have a 250 min. on it. Even though that more than a two hour min. If the job requires an excavator for a day and a loader for half an hour that is a two hour min. on the loader.

Interesting pricing on the attachments Yellow. The way I have been charging attachments is this, X number of dollars from any use to 4 hours is one price, all day is another, on top of the rate on the loader if working hourly. I found charging by the hour for attachments was not recouping the investment on the attachment fast enough, especially if you only used it for an hour or two a day. Different attachments require different returns for example the Preparator requires much more than the grapple does to cover expenses of running the attachment. Same with the concrete breaker. I started doing that with excavator hoe pac. I am making the money I should and no one has expressed an issue with it. Anyone else price attachments like this?

My 440 with VTS would bill at the same rate as my 465. I have come down $5.00 on that as well, providing diesel stays cheap. It might be too cheap given the ground conditions. I plan on monitoring the tracks and rollers and see how they wear. I would like to be around Minimax's $85.00 an hour. I think that is a good fair rate, we will see once I get a better feel for productivity and longevity of uncarriage.


I Agree with AWJ that we are our worst enemy. I try and bid everything. Then I bid what it would take most guys around here to complete the job and then I get it done twice as fast. I usually make twice the amount bidding lawn preps verse by the hour, almost without fail. I have 4 large landscape companies that I prep for, those are done by the hour. I make them good money. They benifit from my productivity instead of me. I am ok with that since the added work load more than comes out in the end.

[Scag48]

I'll give a quick .02 before I head off to snowcat land.

When I used to be involved with pricing and bidding, I would always try to bid the job whenever possible. There were times for me when I got into something I really couldn't put a finger on how long it was going to take, or what was involved. I didn't want to do it, because I know that by doing a T&M you're giving away all the secrets. However, there were a couple times that I really lost my ass had I bid the job. So you have to look at that as well.

I had a 4 hour minimum, I don't think I ever did a job that took me less than half a day anyway, so I felt 4 hours was a good minimum considering the track record I had with short jobs.

With that said, a guy has to look out for #1. Nobody ever really wants to expose pricing structure. If everyone knew what we were charging to run this equipment, there would definately be more morons down at the rental house on a Saturday hooking up an 8,000 pound skid steer behind their Toyota Tacoma.

I'll post a few more ideas in the AM, I'm off to winter wonderland.