Big truck earning it's keep?

[stuvecorp]

I was talking to another contractor this week and I brought up my search for a big dump truck and he kinda went off on me (he has a tri by the way). Kept telling me that I shouldn't even think of it and that it will be my down fall. I know that things can get expensive with them but what is the downside? I don't plan on hauling for hire just moving my material and equipment around, what am I missing?

[skidster32]

if u can keep it busy i dont see what the big deal is. maybe he see's u as a threat some day?

[stuvecorp]

if u can keep it busy i dont see what the big deal is. maybe he see's u as a threat some day?

Maybe, I do use him to move some material.

[Mjh Excavating]

I've tried in the past to justify owning a tri-axle. I don't see where it is worth it. I can make a call and have all the trucks I need. No insurance,no payroll, no fuel, no upkeep, no DOT, you get the point. All at a set hourly rate or by ton price from the quarry. If their truck brakes down they send another one. No lost time on my part. I even hire a low-boy to move my larger stuff.

[Dirtman2007]

I've tried in the past to justify owning a tri-axle. I don't see where it is worth it. I can make a call and have all the trucks I need. No insurance,no payroll, no fuel, no upkeep, no DOT, you get the point. All at a set hourly rate or by ton price from the quarry. If their truck brakes down they send another one. No lost time on my part. I even hire a low-boy to move my larger stuff.

We do the exact same thing. Its really not that hard to line up dump trucks now a days. One call and I can have a lowboy within the hour to move stuff.

[bobcat_ron]

My brother went the same way too, bought a new truck with pup and trailer and did all his own equipment hauling and gravel work, but even after 6 months he was just breaking even, then 11 months later, he had to put new tires on the truck and that was $5000 he would never see again.
Insurance rates were through the roof with the trailer and it's max. allowable weight and all the over width permits and driver overtime, it was a crap shoot for him.
Do the homework on paper first, go 12 months in to the future and estimate your fuel costs, then make your decision.

[CAT powered]

How often are you moving equipment/material?

If you need a truck often enough then it's worth having your own.

If you need it only rarely then you're much better off hiring a truck.

For someone like me who makes at least 1 trip per day to pick up a trailer it's worth having my own truck.

I recently had my CH613's turbo crap out. I bought myself a mid 80s R model Mack tandem axle which had been owned by a municipality. Only 300k actual miles on it. I know it's A-ok because the municipalities have their trucks inspected weekly.

I can make enough $ in a week to pay the year's registration on it.

That being said if you get 1 bad DOT stop you just lost your profit for the week.

I currently run 2 triaxles. One roll-off and one dump. Plus one Class 8 truck.

[ford550]

I was talking to another contractor this week and I brought up my search for a big dump truck and he kinda went off on me (he has a tri by the way). Kept telling me that I shouldn't even think of it and that it will be my down fall. I know that things can get expensive with them but what is the downside? I don't plan on hauling for hire just moving my material and equipment around, what am I missing?


A year and a half ago I went through the same decision making process. I was tired of having to rely on everyone else's time schedule and then them telling me that they don't want to dump the load where I want it b/c they were afraid to get stuck etc. So I decided to start looking for a tandem or tri-axle. It took me some time, but I found the exact tandem I wanted and bought it used. A '00 volvo tandem with 205K miles with everything and it was a bank repo so I stole it. Got my CDL and had one of my foreman get his CDL. On paper it was a no brainer, after all the time my employees wasted waiting for deliveries and then the time moving material b/c it was further away, plus the material cost savings which has been more than half in most cases b/c now we can go right to the production/quarry etc. instead of dealing with a middle man. You have to keep in mind we move a lot of material to justify the purchase, but it was the best move I made. Put it on paper, make sure you have enough work to justify it and go for it. I would recommend used, that was the only way to justify it. I would not have done it if I would have had to buy new. Good luck.

[stuvecorp]

Here the yearly registration is pretty high and there is a 'heavy use' tax which is like another 1000. I have figured estimated tire and fuel useage in to what I thought for expenses and it is not a happy number. The sad thing is there are massive trucks here but nobody will show up on time. I am not figuring the truck to be a profit center but something that will allow me to do the job at my schedule.

[ford550]

The sad thing is there are massive trucks here but nobody will show up on time

stuvecorp,
That is one of the main reasons I went with my own truck. On your paper calculations, don't forget to add in the lost time your crews have when materials don't show up on time. It is rediculous how fast that lost revenue adds up. If you have the work, it's easy to pay for. And actually it opened up some other money making opportunites having it, in conjunction with our mini ex and skid steers. Some of my contractor friends said I was crazy, but now I am doing some hauling for them :rolleyes:. Like I said, it has worked well for me, but each business is different.

[stuvecorp]

I can think of two cases last year, one was hauling material at the Renaissance Faire for a building pad the first trucker would only work part of the day so I had to shut down and get someone else couple days later to finish. If I had a truck and trailer one guy would have loaded with the excavator and hauled and I could have spread material the whole time. The other was just getting four quad loads of black dirt in to rehab a lawn, the guy was late, then really slow, got himself stuck and drug out what should have been quick and easy, because he held things up it rained and I lost a couple days until it was dry enough to plant. It is hard to do the one day dig jobs because I can't control when my machine will be moved in and out and it is 150-200 each time the excavator is hauled, but then I have to figure the cost of trailer and truck even if I do it too. I also haven't pushed doing more site prep as I need to haul material out and fill/base back in.

I am looking at used tandem/tri/quad and trying not to be too hung up on a brand.

[ksss]

I have run trucks from single axle dumps to tractor trailers and they are not a big profit piece of equipment. The issue with relying on others for 100% of you trucking is time schedule, lack of flexibiity and some profit margins. Yes trucks are expensive to run, but not having your own can be expensive also. When problems on jobs come up requiring trucks to stand by, that gets expensive. Not getting trucks when you need them is expensive.

I am good with one demo body triaxle. Gives me the flexibliltiy to haul any load virtually. It was nice last year when I had two dumps but I can get by with one and since I sold the other not much choice. When I need to move a lot of material I start making phone calls. My MACK is equipped to pull a pup if I get the inclination. I have a triaxle lowboy but I have yet to pull with it as I don't have a tractor and the way things are looking I wont for a while. I have been hiring my 160 moved. Scheduling sometimes sucks, any blip on the screen costs more money from the hired lowboy, but I will suck that up until times improve.

Heavy Use nationwide is $550. However you may not have to pay the HU unless your over 54K.

[CAT powered]

Keep in mind that with your own truck you'll still have times where you're stuck and waiting.

If your truck breaks down you're stuck paying for the repairs and downtime. Or if the truck gets pinched by DOT or any other stuff like that.

[stuvecorp]

I have run trucks from single axle dumps to tractor trailers and they are not a big profit piece of equipment. The issue with relying on others for 100% of you trucking is time schedule, lack of flexibiity and some profit margins. Yes trucks are expensive to run, but not having your own can be expensive also. When problems on jobs come up requiring trucks to stand by, that gets expensive. Not getting trucks when you need them is expensive.

I am good with one demo body triaxle. Gives me the flexibliltiy to haul any load virtually. It was nice last year when I had two dumps but I can get by with one and since I sold the other not much choice. When I need to move a lot of material I start making phone calls. My MACK is equipped to pull a pup if I get the inclination. I have a triaxle lowboy but I have yet to pull with it as I don't have a tractor and the way things are looking I wont for a while. I have been hiring my 160 moved. Scheduling sometimes sucks, any blip on the screen costs more money from the hired lowboy, but I will suck that up until times improve.

Heavy Use nationwide is $550. However you may not have to pay the HU unless your over 54K.

Wonder why I keep getting told HU is 1000? Will check it out. It seems like most of my projects are 120-200 yard range, there are some bigger like the 800 yard lawn I did. I would be able to keep my work flowing and if bigger stuff comes up I could pick up a truck or two. I have always been able to find black dirt, one year I could have taken all I wanted from one site as they were going to get a fine if it wasn't gone but it didn't pay to hire a truck to do it when I could have instead of sitting around at the end of the season.

[Gravel Rat]

If your in the excavation business you need to own a dump truck it doesn't necessarly mean you need a triaxle. For moving equipment I don't know about you guys in the USA but for a lowbed to come and move your machine your looking at minimum 250-300 dollars thats if the lowbed is in the area.

If you own a 16 ton excavator even a 20 ton excavator you can move them on a triaxle tag trailer behind a tandem.

No contractor here would even be without a tandem axle dump and a trailer the only time you hire a lowbed is if the machine weighs more than a 200 size excavator.

If your constantly fixing the truck you have a bad driver that can't drive. I worked on gravel trucks the biggest expense is tires. Here drive tires last about 8 months steer tires last about 4 months. Set of supersingle steers will set you back 1800-2000 dollars drive tires are around 350 dollars each.

A truck is worth it if you have experience with a dump truck if you don't and you don't have any mechanical skills to repair them then you probably shouldn't own one.

One of the contractors in the area only has a single axle dump so he hires a guy with a tandem. Over one year the owner operator got 200,000 dollars just working for the one contractor.

[Junior M]

If your in the excavation business you need to own a dump truck it doesn't necessarly mean you need a triaxle.


I dont see that true, atleast not totally, I think it depends on what your doing..

[Mjh Excavating]

I don't buy the NEED to own a dumptruck. The only way I could see it is if you had limited access to hire trucks. I don't pay to move my equipment the customer where its going to does. Tell me it does not cost 250-300 to move a piece of equipment with your own truck and driver. I would have to say the average move from starting the truck to parking it again is 2 hours?? give or take. Add all the costs and one bad DOT stop and in my book it doesn't pay. But thats my book.

[Gravel Rat]

You can't play the waiting game when you hire a owner operator with a dump truck doesn't show. The only way that works is if the owner operator works exclusivly for you and you provide the guy with enough work.

You can buy a decent used dump for 25,000 it may need some work but that is fine. Figure it this way your paying a tandem axle dump 90 dollars per hour or thats what we pay here. Any employees you hire must have dump truck experience and a CDL that is the way it is here no such thing as just a equipment operator you must beable to drive truck.

[Mjh Excavating]

Never have that problem. Jobs are scheduled ahead and there is more than enough trucks for hire in this area that if one guy cancels you can call someone else. I've worked for companys that had there own trucks and I would rather pay another operator than truck driver. JMO

[stuvecorp]

I don't buy the NEED to own a dumptruck. The only way I could see it is if you had limited access to hire trucks. I don't pay to move my equipment the customer where its going to does. Tell me it does not cost 250-300 to move a piece of equipment with your own truck and driver. I would have to say the average move from starting the truck to parking it again is 2 hours?? give or take. Add all the costs and one bad DOT stop and in my book it doesn't pay. But thats my book.

There is some truth to what you said, it does cost money for moving your own equipment. I don't agree with Gravel Rat on being a mechanic, I just check stuff and if it is not right it goes to the mechanic. I think I have taken this as far as I can without having a big truck.

[Hollowellreid]

I feel as if the point is being missed or skirted around here...

Yes, you can hire out trucks. We do it all the time.

The old man also owns a couple of trucks, a handful of small Isuzu's, a midsize international, and a tandem international. A lot of the jobs we work on are smaller and often don't need a complete train load of material. The trucks were all purchased used and for cash. Years like this, where things look slow, we will likely only purchase plates and insurance for the trucks in 3 month increments.....some of them might never get on the road if it's slow enough. Doesn't cost much to have them sit.

A lot of what dad does is high end landscapes rather than just pure excavation- all of the dumps have sides that come off and barn door tailgates- great for picking up block, brick, trees, plant materials, etc. They don't serve duty as just gravel trains.

However, when we really need to get some material hauled, we will call the big guys- Anything that needs 20+ yards of material they will usually come out. When access is a problem, they will bring just a lead instead of the whole train. Costs a bit more, but whatever works.

Just because you have a big truck doesn't mean you HAVE to haul everything. I know that Stuve has the medium duty as is, which is a good step up from the pickup truck that we seem to see many small excavation contractors using. I can't imagine not having even a small dump to move small leftovers or get a bit of material here and there.

In this case, having a bigger truck would really seem to complete the package to me. Can haul the excavator, multiple machines at once, etc.

Just a ramble, but I think spending the $$ on a good used larger truck would be good. Having big power in a truck can be really nice, even if it's not your dream truck.

my 2 cents...

Reid

[treemover]

Here is my .02...Find a nice older truck that has had work done to it. Make sure it is reliable. use it for what you need then let it sit when you dont. I would not worry about keeping a driver in it, its a no win situation(trust me). I would not give my tandem up for anything, granted we do not use it all the time but is great to be in power and control of your schedule.
I would recommend looking at a hook lift or roll off. Give you the ability to use the truck more and haul more equipment. We are currently looking for a hook for ours.

FYI our tags fun us $475/year no heavy use under 54k, and insurance around 2k/year. Our maintenance is really minimal we are getting 2 plus years on tires we are running around 20-25k miles a year

[bearmtnmartin]

just thought I'd throw my 2 bits worth in. I have an old tandem axle Louisville. I paid cash for it 10 years ago and I wouldn't be without it. But I often don't use it now. It sits a lot. I get the pits to haul most of my agregate, so it just moves my backhoe every now and then. But when I need it boy is it nice to know its sitting in the yard ready to go. Maintenance is huge if you run it every day, but you need to put miles on to break stuff, and even if it doesn't turn a wheel all month, the insurance is only a couple bills a month, so I don't mind eating that for peace of mind.

[2109 Stang]

Im a for hire trucking and I work for people like you ,Im sure that in this economy you can find a reliable trucking outfit that will be more than happy to work for you specially if you plan your work ,I usually need about a weeks notice when Im busy ,but most times we can move our schedule around to bail one of my costumers on last minute notice I keep in touch with other independent truckers for that kind of situation ,if you relay on brokers it will be a different storie ,them truckers don't want to work late hrs or Friday past noon nor weekends ,the difference betwin them and me is , Independent reliable truckers are willing to work all the time saving you the hassle of all the expenses of owning trucks ,we do it because we love what we do and we know how to stay in business and in the process we make some money too ,now if you have enough work and don't mind putting up with the maintenance "and can find a good driver " go for it ,you'll find out how expensive a piece of equipment can be ,but if I can do it so can you.

[stuvecorp]

Im a for hire trucking and I work for people like you ,Im sure that in this economy you can find a reliable trucking outfit that will be more than happy to work for you specially if you plan your work ,I usually need about a weeks notice when Im busy ,but most times we can move our schedule around to bail one of my costumers on last minute notice I keep in touch with other independent truckers for that kind of situation ,if you relay on brokers it will be a different storie ,them truckers don't want to work late hrs or Friday past noon nor weekends ,the difference betwin them and me is , Independent reliable truckers are willing to work all the time saving you the hassle of all the expenses of owning trucks ,we do it because we love what we do and we know how to stay in business and in the process we make some money too ,now if you have enough work and don't mind putting up with the maintenance "and can find a good driver " go for it ,you'll find out how expensive a piece of equipment can be ,but if I can do it so can you.

I use to have a guy that was exactly what you describe but had to retire from back problems. If he was still around I would probably not be thinking of a truck. I never minded paying what he asked because he ran hard and was hauling big. That one 800 yard lawn, he was hauling way more but wanted to get me material as fast as he could even though it meant less hours for him. I gave him a key to the loader and would call leave a message for the day and time and he was there.

I am not planning to hire a driver, although Dad would probably not mind some drive time if I got too busy.

[2109 Stang]

Thats what I do a lot of the times ,Leave me a key or I'll bring my lil 2109 ,its not as fast as a 3 cy front end loader but as fast or faster than a backhoe .

[stuvecorp]

I think Hollowellreid, Treemover and Bearmtnmartin have hit it on the head with what I am thinking. I am thinking as I talked this summer still going with a quad just to be able to move as much per trip as possible.

[stuvecorp]

Thats what I do a lot of the times ,Leave me a key or I'll bring my lil 2109 ,its not as fast as a 3 cy front end loader but as fast or faster than a backhoe .

I miss my 721 but it will likely be a long time before I have a loader again. The Kobelco is supposed to do loading duty and worked good this last season. Shane has let me in on the 465 secret(which would be close to a 2109) and that is one reason I want to go bigger there too.

Those 2109's have a high reach don't they?

I didn't mention but I have a good chance to supply other landscapers with some black dirt.

[wanabe]

Is truck rental available in your area? I rent a tandem from a local place for $200 a day when i need one, and have my dad drive it. That includes the fuel so i dont think i can own a truck for that.

[ksss]

Is truck rental available in your area? I rent a tandem from a local place for $200 a day when i need one, and have my dad drive it. That includes the fuel so i dont think i can own a truck for that.



I don't see how they can rent a tandem for $200 a day including fuel. It can cost over $200 to fill the tank.

I have never seen anyone rent tandems. There are some of the rental companies here that rent single axle trucks under 26K.

[2109 Stang]

Wow if can rent a truck for that much including fuel ,I won't use my own ,that said ,it's probably a wore out beat up truck non DOT compliant .

[stuvecorp]

Is truck rental available in your area? I rent a tandem from a local place for $200 a day when i need one, and have my dad drive it. That includes the fuel so i dont think i can own a truck for that.

Never heard of that, someone has to be crazy. How could they include fuel? Is it full when you get it and you bring it back full?

[2109 Stang]

Can anyone imagine the liability insurance on those trucks ,I had a driver with a couple of tickets on its record and my insurance went up to $1000 per month more ,that along was more than my full coverage for both trucks with a non ticket driver and my self , by the way right now am at the lowest I've ever paid on insurance ,thanks to a outstanding record on both drivers and a long history with the same ins agency ,I have logged more than a million miles with this insurance company with no claims other than wore out wind shields

[wanabe]

I do rent a tandem for 200 a day! Its from a friend, that my dad worked for years ago. The trucks are older, but they will pass a dot test. Nice being able to rent like this and not have a year round payment, license plates, and ins!

[Gravel Rat]

You don't need a fancy truck but it should have atleast 400hp with a heavy front axle and minimum 44,000lb rear axles. You would want air to the back plate for a trailer with a pintle.

As long as the truck can pass a DOT inspection and its not a worn out pile of junk you should be good to go.

[CAT powered]

You don't need 400hp for everything.

Maybe you need 400hp if you're hauling up cliffs like GR does. I've got a 350 horse in my CH truck tractor and it does just fine in my area which isn't insanely hilly like GR's area. It doesn't mind moving 80,000 at all. Having the heaviest rears and biggest HP is no better than a lighter truck because regardless your legal limit is the same as any other truck's. All you're doing by buying bigger HP and huge rears is increasing your tare weight and burning more fuel.

44k rears are pretty much standard, but like I said. More HP doesn't always mean better.

[Gravel Rat]

I know in the USA trucks with power are not that common but here you can find lots of old trucks with 3406B Cats with 425 horespower or 400 Big Cam Cummins or older trucks with N-14 Cummins at 400hp. A 350hp Mack will do they are a good engine but they are only 12 litres compared to the 400 Cummins is 14 litre engine and the 3406 is 14.5.

A tandem axle with a L-10 M-11 or 3306 isn't bad they are only 300hp but if you plan on dragging a trailer they are a little underpowered.

Myself a truck has to have atleast a 350-400 Cummins or a 425 Cat. I have driven both 400 Cummins 13spd and 425 Cat 13spd I do prefer the Cat but the old 400 Cummins do well. Drove driptroits no thanks both 6v92 and 8v92.

In the USA old Macks are common or its what I found when I was looking around for trucks. A perfect Mack would be one with the E7 350hp R model with 12spd 44 Mack rears on Camelback or even 38 rears.

My truck would be a LT9000 Ford 425 Cat power 20 front axle 46,000 rears on Hendrickson spring. I learned on Fords I know what they can do and where they can go.

[04superduty]

i agree with GR, a nice set of trains being pulled my a michigan special kenworth would be perfect. around 600 horse and a 18 spd, then you would be set for anything.

[CAT powered]

600 horse?

WTF are you pulling with that thing?

Unless you're pulling around D11s and PC1250s you have NO need for that much HP. NONE.

Eventually I would like to set up a triaxle lowboy tractor with 500+ CAT and 18spd with a 55 Ton Rogers setup take pin-on rear axles and a jeep to go with it.

Then I'll just fabricate up a couple setups for escort trucks. I've already got trucks that would work as escort vehicles so I want to fab up something that will hold a steel Oversize sign with some strobes. I'd include an extra set of stop/turn/tails and just use the trailer plug. Then I'd put in 4 corner hide-away strobes. That way it's easier to set the truck up to go and you don't have to worry about magnetic strobes scratching up the paint.

Keep in mind that is my setup in a perfect world and 99% chance it'll never happen.

[Hollowellreid]

I do agree that a big block engine is nice. I don't think that the horsepower is a HUGE deal. Most of them can be turned up fairly easy by the dealer anyhow. We have an N-14 truck and the engine was turned to 400 from 330 by the cummins tech. Also upped the limiter a few hundred RPM, used to be limited to 63 on the freeway....ugh.

The big power is nice, it will more or less move anything, not slow down on big hills, etc. It was fine when it was at 330 HP, however.

There is a big BIG jump though from a midsize engine like a DT466 or a 8. cummins up to a real big six. Horsepower might only be 1-200 different, but torque is somewhere in the 600-800+ lb/ft difference.

I think as long as its a big truck engine it will be just fine. I wouldn't even mind an older engine sometimes, the N-14 will randomely go into limp mode every now and then, too many computer controls. PITA.

[2109 Stang]

I think hp has a lot to do with the area ,my KW has a 3406E 470 hp on the dyno ,but a previous truck I had was 250 flywheel hp and 600 lb/ft of torque 8.3 Cummins ,I put 600K miles on that truck with 40k rears at around 8.75 to 9.75 mpg with a payload of 24.5 tons but the highest hill here is the 7 mile bridge at about 80ft from water surface ,if that truck goes to California it probably does about 3 mpg and about 5mph on the hills ,but the KW can probably cruise @ 60 mph with 21 tns ,this was a Michigan truck with 46K 4.56 rears 13speed 11 R 22.5 extremely and unnecessarily overbuilt at 28,000# empty weight.

[ford550]

My volvo tandem is a 300HP and 950 lb-ft with 8LL and it works just fine for me. Not going to set any landspeed records, but it hauls.

[04superduty]

600 horse?

WTF are you pulling with that thing?

Unless you're pulling around D11s and PC1250s you have NO need for that much HP. NONE.

Eventually I would like to set up a triaxle lowboy tractor with 500+ CAT and 18spd with a 55 Ton Rogers setup take pin-on rear axles and a jeep to go with it.

Then I'll just fabricate up a couple setups for escort trucks. I've already got trucks that would work as escort vehicles so I want to fab up something that will hold a steel Oversize sign with some strobes. I'd include an extra set of stop/turn/tails and just use the trailer plug. Then I'd put in 4 corner hide-away strobes. That way it's easier to set the truck up to go and you don't have to worry about magnetic strobes scratching up the paint.

Keep in mind that is my setup in a perfect world and 99% chance it'll never happen.

gravel trains are legal for 154,000-164,000 depending on axle spacing. of course you dont need 600+ hp, but is sure makes it more fun.

[ksss]

gravel trains are legal for 154,000-164,000 depending on axle spacing. of course you dont need 600+ hp, but is sure makes it more fun.


It all depends on the State. Max. you can have here is 108K, which causes problems because Or. and Wa. allow much heavier loads.

[Gravel Rat]

Here max is 140,000lbs that is a tandem axle dump pulling a quad axle transfer trailer gives you about 32 tons worth of material. Grossing 140,000lbs you need some power the lowbed contractor has a Kenworth with a C-16 Cat 600hp I seen that truck groan pulling a heavy load (150-160,000lbs) yes over weight but no scales here.

A loaded up Super B Train with its max load makes a truck tractors frame twist from the torque. You can see the cab tilt when the frame starts to twist pulling a grade.

A underpowered truck wears you out if your constantly shifting and trying to maintain any speed.

[CAT powered]

Around here max GVWR without permits is 80,000.

[stuvecorp]

Stopped and looked at this truck today. It wasn't too bad but it was a converted semi tractor and I am not quite comfortable with that idea. It has the C12 Cat with a 9 speed, Pete low leaf suspension. He set it up last spring and he set up another(the KW that is peeking out) that ended up costing him way more so this one has to go. Todays price was $31,000, I just wasn't excited so the search will go on.

I found a KW that was a redi mix truck but would have to set it up, don't know if I want to go that route now.

[ksss]

Lotta bling to that truck. Aesthetically I am not a fan of the 377, kinda like a T600. They are over the road trucks and not vocational, but there are guys around here running converted OTR dump trucks and they seem to get along fine. I could not bring myself to buy one, but I was close a couple of times.

[Gravel Rat]

The biggest problem with a converted truck tractor is the front axle is only a 12,000lb so is the springs.

Truck prices are pretty cheap nowwadays especially for us her logging trucks can be had for a decent price.

At the last Ritchie Bros auction in Surrey you could have bought a Volvo VHD with 465hp Volvo power and 18spd logging truck for 22,000. Trucks were 2004 models with 400,000kms (250,000 miles). No market for logging trucks but they could be converted to dumps. They are spec'ed heavy enough with double lockers in the diffs.

[stuvecorp]

The front axle I think bothers me the most, the factory dumps here are running 20 fronts. My thought is no matter what 'springs' you put in it the axle/components are still for a 12,000 axle. The paint really was flat when you were close to it so it didn't look as good as it should. It ran fine and everything seamed to work but I just have a funny feeling about it. I know there are other trucks so I don't feel too bad about moving on.

I don't like the 377 that much compared to a 330/335/340, 357 or even a 385.

The one thing that I kind of like about building a truck is I could get my super awesome box that would be more versatile and not have to throw away a box. A lot of it is going to depend how bids come back, if I get more walls or landscaping/seeding I can live without it. Or GR would be proud, there is a Ford in town that is in nice shape but it dosen't have enough shiny to overcome being a Ford.:nono:

[wanabe]

Are you sure the front axle and spring have not been changed? Maybe he used the old front axle for the tag axle? That tag axle has to take alot of weight off of the front axle anyway.

[bearmtnmartin]

I know two people who had snapped front axles because they were overloading the 12K units. One of them was going down the highway at the time. The axle stub will break right off. Both of those trucks pulled tags with excavators regularly, for what that's worth. I went shopping for a pumper truck in the States a couple of years ago and it was frustrating how many of the trucks I called about had big rubber on undersize axles. Or I couldn't get the full story from the dealer. So I bought one locally for more money so I could read the manufacturers tag and be sure what I was getting.

[stuvecorp]

I know two people who had snapped front axles because they were overloading the 12K units. One of them was going down the highway at the time. The axle stub will break right off. Both of those trucks pulled tags with excavators regularly, for what that's worth. I went shopping for a pumper truck in the States a couple of years ago and it was frustrating how many of the trucks I called about had big rubber on undersize axles. Or I couldn't get the full story from the dealer. So I bought one locally for more money so I could read the manufacturers tag and be sure what I was getting.

That's what I was concerned about. The guy just added springs.

[stuvecorp]

I started looking more at other trucks and those 7000 series Internationals seem to be reasonable, I kind of like some I found but they are all down south.

[wanabe]

Did you ask him how much is on the front axle with a legal load? Im just wondering if you can get over 12,000 on the front axle with the drop axle located that close to the cab? In IL you can only run 54,000 lbs on a tandem, but you may be completly different in WI. The front axle would not be a deal beaker for me. Just go to a salvage yard and buy a 18,000 lb axle and put it under there if you are that concerned. Not that big of a job!

[ksss]

Did you ask him how much is on the front axle with a legal load? Im just wondering if you can get over 12,000 on the front axle with the drop axle located that close to the cab? In IL you can only run 54,000 lbs on a tandem, but you may be completly different in WI. The front axle would not be a deal beaker for me. Just go to a salvage yard and buy a 18,000 lb axle and put it under there if you are that concerned. Not that big of a job!


Mechanically your right, not a big deal, however somehow you would have to modify the GVW stamp on the VIN plate. I don't know if getting it inspected and thus authorizing the change from factory or if there is some other way. However if it is stamped on the truck as a 12K front and you put a 24K on the front but it doesn't say that anywhere, guess what, you have a 12K front and you will pay accordingly at the box office.

[stuvecorp]

Did you ask him how much is on the front axle with a legal load? Im just wondering if you can get over 12,000 on the front axle with the drop axle located that close to the cab? In IL you can only run 54,000 lbs on a tandem, but you may be completly different in WI. The front axle would not be a deal beaker for me. Just go to a salvage yard and buy a 18,000 lb axle and put it under there if you are that concerned. Not that big of a job!

I know what you are saying but here's my thought, why go and spend whatever the axle is and the labor to do it when I can spend the same amount and have a truck designed for what I want it to do. I also think it would be expensive to find an axle, swap it out and have it aligned. You will never get that money back out of the truck because guys expect the truck to have a big front axle here. There was other stuff that I just wasn't that impressed with.

[Gravel Rat]

After awhile you can tell what size of axle you have by looking at it. Adding supersingles to a 12,000lb axle doesn't make it a 20,000lb front axle.

The big problem is you can't carry 20,000lbs on standard 22.5 and 24.5 rubber. You can use 315/80-24.5 rubber they have a 9000lb rating but they are thick sidewalls. You don't have the inches of width. Here now we require 445/65R22.5 tires for steers they are close to 1200 dollars each. We used to beable to use 425/65R22.5 which what good for 20,000lbs not anymore.

To run Supersingle tires you should have twin steering boxes or a assist cylinder on the passenger side. A standard truck tractor with a single steering box will twist itself right off the frame :laugh:

[RockSet N' Grade]

Stuvecorp.........build a truck? NO WAY, NOT NOW! I have been in this debate for a long time. If times were red hot and money was flowing like water......yes. But right now, there are so many great trucks around, look to buy used and save $30-$40,000 dollars. Do some reasearch on what you want and then start asking around. I found one after 6 months of looking that is a dandy for me.......2000 t800b kenworth, cat c-12 430 hp, eaton 8LL, 46 rears, 20 front, 2 pushers, chalmers suspension 243,000 miles with a K & H rock bed w/ 48" sides, hi-lift, elec tarp.........Now here is the kicker: rock bed new is $25,488 and he paid $65,000 for the truck.......that is roughly $90 he has in it. He is selling it for $35k and it has all the maintenance records and is dent free and spotless inside and out. All these trucks make the same dollar per hour......save your money, spend your time finding what you want used.......there are a ton of them out there.....the key is ask questions and spec the truck out for yourself on paper so you get as close to what you want and need.

[stuvecorp]

Rock, that truck sounds awesome.Thumbs Up So when do we get to see pictures? You guys must have roughly the same truck weight laws as that is how the trucks are set up here. That has hardly any miles on it. Does it have steerable pushers? I do agree with you on looking more, I figured there has to be one that has everything I want at a price I can't say no to.

[bearmtnmartin]

actually the rules here for tires haven't changed. The DOT are just getting a bit better at looking closer. The rating on the tire is very closely related to the BC max allowable. They measure it by width across the widest part of the tire(not the tread) and if you look at the manufacturers literature, that's part of the rating. The tire needs to be rated for the axle rating if thats how much weight you want to pack. So a lot of newer trucks come with 20K fronts, which need the widest tire, whereas most of the older ones had 18's and 16's, so they were rated lower and they didn't need the really big rubber. And you can't load them as heavy. As for the stamp on the door, you might get away with sliding a different axle under the truck, but the only thing the DOT will look at if they are suspicious is the tag on the door. Most of them wouldn't know one axle from another. And you can argue with them till you turn purple, you will still get a fine. And then they will make you tow the truck, because you are now considered a second stage manufacturer, and they will want to see your authorization and engineering. Anyone who modifies a truck after it leaves the factory needs a second stage certification, which shows up as a DOT plate on the door. Lots of people change out axles and tires, and get away with it for years, but what if you go to all that expense and then get nailed? I would just take my time and get the right truck to begin with.

[stuvecorp]

Had to take a picture of this one from town, I think they just set it up not that long ago. I actually like this size a little better as it would fit more places than a quad. Their big trucks are really sweet looking. They didn't have a price but enjoy.

[Junior M]

thats a good lookin truck!

[ksss]

thats a good lookin truck!



Ditto, I really like that truck. I was looking at several that were set up like that. Just could not justify the money. I am sure they are much cheaper now. I believe that is a 7600 or something like that. Killer trucks, good specs usually.

[talus]

Thats a Frieghtliner business class m2 106 I think. A 7600 would be a International. I like the International much better.

[Junior M]

Thats a Frieghtliner business class m2 106 I think. A 7600 would be a International. I like the International much better.
Oh my! I love the 7600's thats what Dads crew has at work, dam nice trucks..

[Gravel Rat]

The Freightliner is nice but it doesn't have big power because of the hood is too small. Good for visability but load it up she will be really slow on the road.

[Gravel Rat]

Another truck option is look at a Mack Granite they are okay they are not the best but they are cheaper than a Kenworth but better than a Freightliner.

[ksss]

Thats a Frieghtliner business class m2 106 I think. A 7600 would be a International. I like the International much better.



Your right dam don't know how I missed that.

[talus]

It starts slow. You are still in the early stages. I would suggest as a minimum to wear sunglases at all times around your equipment. It's power tan syndrome,I've seen it a million times.:laugh:

[RockSet N' Grade]

So here is another tid bit I have learned while shopping. You do not want to buy a truck that is newer than 2000. On 2001 to date they have increased the computers and technology and smog stuff. The cost of repairs is enormous compared to the older trucks and the older trucks actually put more hp directly to the ground. I have talked to mechanics at International and my mechanic and they both just roll their eyes when they start talking repairs and replacement on these newer trucks. Another thing I have learned is that you do not want to buy a mack with the gold bull dog on the front......that means it is all mack through and through and you can only buy parts from mack.................with the silver dog on the truck, they are not "pure" mack and parts are less expensive.........not to imply mack is not a tough truck, it is in fact, one of the toughest out there.........just looking at it dollars and cents wise.

[talus]

Good info. I have heard that Mack had you over a barrel on certain stuff. Never knew about the gold bulldog thing though.

[stuvecorp]

I like the size of that Freightliner. Those new Internationals are pretty nice and seem to have decent pricing in the used market.

Good stuff Rock, didn't know about after 1999. So Y2K is finally gonna get us? It makes sense though. When I was talking to Pete this last season about trading in the Kodiak the salesman said the older trucks are starting to get more attention because of the lack of computer stuff.

[wanabe]

You better not price peterbilt parts if you think mack is high on parts! I have worked on about everything short of a KW and mack is no higher than the rest. 99% of the macks out there use the same transmission and axles as everyone else. Heck some macks even have a cummins in them!

[RockSet N' Grade]

wanabe..........as I said about Mack.......check out the dog. If it is silver it is a mix, if it is gold it is all mack.

[dozerman21]

So here is another tid bit I have learned while shopping. You do not want to buy a truck that is newer than 2000. On 2001 to date they have increased the computers and technology and smog stuff. The cost of repairs is enormous compared to the older trucks and the older trucks actually put more hp directly to the ground. I have talked to mechanics at International and my mechanic and they both just roll their eyes when they start talking repairs and replacement on these newer trucks. Another thing I have learned is that you do not want to buy a mack with the gold bull dog on the front......that means it is all mack through and through and you can only buy parts from mack.................with the silver dog on the truck, they are not "pure" mack and parts are less expensive.........not to imply mack is not a tough truck, it is in fact, one of the toughest out there.........just looking at it dollars and cents wise.

I've heard the same thing about the electronics, RSG. I did not know about the silver/gold bulldog. I'll have to check that out. I'd like to upgrade my road tractor sometime and a late 90's Mack tandem day cab is one I'm considering.

I know of some trucking companies that are trading away some of their Mack tri-axles because of frames not holding up. Some of these guys have always ran Mack only, but they said that Mack started using Volvo frames in '03 (or when they parterned with Volve to make a new frame), and those are the ones they are having problems with. This is just what I heard, I don't have any experience with either.

[wanabe]

How many macks do you see that have the gold dog on them? Very few in my area! When we checked on them, the empty weight of the tractor was about 2 tons more just for the mack rears and transmission. And just for parts pricing info, i put a new mufler on a pete 375 last year and needed 4 new ruber isolaters to re mount the new mufler on the cab. The 379 uses the same mounting system. 4 rubbers that were about 1 inch diameter cost $140.xx! Talk about high priced parts!

[stuvecorp]

How many macks do you see that have the gold dog on them? Very few in my area! When we checked on them, the empty weight of the tractor was about 2 tons more just for the mack rears and transmission. And just for parts pricing info, i put a new mufler on a pete 375 last year and needed 4 new ruber isolaters to re mount the new mufler on the cab. The 379 uses the same mounting system. 4 rubbers that were about 1 inch diameter cost $140.xx! Talk about high priced parts!

I do know there is a bunch of Mack dump trucks and they are very heavy. They are pushing 30,000 empty where alot of the trucks in town run 26-27000 empty. The Macks just don't do it for me, the Granite looks better though. I've heard that about the Bulldog, when I was young I always watched for a gold one when riding in the car.

I think no matter what truck you have the parts are ridiculous and that gets to the point maybe the guy was trying to make to me how trucks cost you dearly.

[ksss]

I do know there is a bunch of Mack dump trucks and they are very heavy. They are pushing 30,000 empty where alot of the trucks in town run 26-27000 empty. The Macks just don't do it for me, the Granite looks better though. I've heard that about the Bulldog, when I was young I always watched for a gold one when riding in the car.

I think no matter what truck you have the parts are ridiculous and that gets to the point maybe the guy was trying to make to me how trucks cost you dearly.


Mine is heavy but the demo body is a lot of it. Mine is a silver Dog, I have an 18 speed Eaton, everything else is Mack. I have not had to buy anything for it so I don't know what the prices are going to be. Like mentioned all parts are expensive. I will say I really like driving the MACK, its a sweet truck. Honestly it is so much newer (1999) than my old dump truck any truck would seem like huge progression over the 84 IH I had before.

[ksss]

Here is a Gold dog Mack.


http://www.ironplanet.com/jsp/s/item/201621?h=405,2568

[Gravel Rat]

If you are going with a Mack attack go with a full Mack not a mutt. The Mack engines are good so are the 12spd transmission. The only mutt I would go with would be a 350 Mack engine with a 8LL or 13spd. Would go with Mack camel back suspension.

If I was going with a used dump it would the a LT9000 Ford 425 Cat power and 13spd. The trucks haul just aswell as any other brand and they can go into places other brands can't.

[landtech1]

I have a little old Mack, 79 RL600L with under 150,000 mi. Its definitely not a highway truck but it's all Mack. Someone stole my bulldog, so I don't know what color the dog was. It's not a heavy hauler but it will get into and out job sites like no other. Backing up and shifting gears is fun too. The cab is too small but I can live with that. The 300 hp seems to to pull better than a lot of newer trucks I've driven of comparable hp. I bought it just to take up the slack and cut down on hauling costs. and its worked out well. Being a sentimental old guy, I feel a lot like this guy when I drive it.:cool2:
There are so many newer trucks out there and good deals if you have the money you should be able find a great deal. Scott

[stuvecorp]

Freightliner Tri Axle Dump

Dad stopped and talked to them about the truck. They are asking high 70's. It's an 06 M2 106 but only has 30,000 miles. 300 horse Mercedes(MBE 900) with an 8LL, 210" WB and 3.90 ratio. Has an 18 front, 46 rear with a heavy steerable pusher. They plated it at 68,000 and the empty weight is 23,000 so you have a payload of 45,000. Now they are very close to what a quad is but it is so short? How can it get that much payload and be so short(and yet legal)? They got it to haul for landscapers or smaller stuff but people complain it isn't a quad and don't want to pay close to what a quad gets. The lightest quads here are running 26,000 empty and can be at 73,000 I think so that gives you 47,000 payload, I can see that extra ton for the big stuff but for me I don't think I would miss it. You can actually haul more than some of the heavy quads yet get trashed for being a tri.

I really like it but would like my swing out box and have an International or Pete chassis setup to these specs if you can haul as much as it looks. What do you think?

[ksss]

Freightliner Tri Axle Dump

Dad stopped and talked to them about the truck. They are asking high 70's. It's an 06 M2 106 but only has 30,000 miles. 300 horse Mercedes(MBE 900) with an 8LL, 210" WB and 3.90 ratio. Has an 18 front, 46 rear with a heavy steerable pusher. They plated it at 68,000 and the empty weight is 23,000 so you have a payload of 45,000. Now they are very close to what a quad is but it is so short? How can it get that much payload and be so short(and yet legal)? They got it to haul for landscapers or smaller stuff but people complain it isn't a quad and don't want to pay close to what a quad gets. The lightest quads here are running 26,000 empty and can be at 73,000 I think so that gives you 47,000 payload, I can see that extra ton for the big stuff but for me I don't think I would miss it. You can actually haul more than some of the heavy quads yet get trashed for being a tri.

I really like it but would like my swing out box and have an International or Pete chassis setup to these specs if you can haul as much as it looks. What do you think?


I have heard nothing positive about the MBE engines.

[stuvecorp]

I have heard nothing positive about the MBE engines.

That was my thought too.

[Dirt Digger2]

as a note...our older Pete road tractor is being taken off the road because its cheaper to pay someone to haul the trackhoe then it is to tag the truck

anyone interested? haha

[RockSet N' Grade]

A guy I work with has two trucks with MB engines. He bought them brand new. He does his maintenance. BOTH trucks ate their engines and had to be rebuilt/replaced and this was before 100k, maybe 50k, on the motor......not a happy camper. Stay away from MBE is what I hear and have seen.

[dozerman21]

A guy I work with has two trucks with MB engines. He bought them brand new. He does his maintenance. BOTH trucks ate their engines and had to be rebuilt/replaced and this was before 100k, maybe 50k, on the motor......not a happy camper. Stay away from MBE is what I hear and have seen.

I know some guys that have them in tri-axles. The last time I asked, the MBE's were holding up o.k., but the drivers liked the power better in the previous trucks, which were C12 Cats I believe.

DD- What are the general specs of the Pete?

[Dirt Digger2]

not really sure on the excact specs...i have only driven it once

Cummins engine i know

chrome tanks and wheels...sharp looking truck

it is not for sale just yet, but when it does if you are still interested i can get you the info

[ksss]

I know some guys that have them in tri-axles. The last time I asked, the MBE's were holding up o.k., but the drivers liked the power better in the previous trucks, which were C12 Cats I believe.

DD- What are the general specs of the Pete?

My neighbor was the service manager for a large nationwide trucking company. He had nothing good to say about them, from durability to serviceability to parts availability. That was enough for me. I would imagine that life in a vocational truck would be even harder on them than over the road.

[Dirt Digger2]

whos your neighbor work for?

[ksss]

whos your neighbor work for?


He worked for Andrus Trucking. I think last I heard they have 300 trucks in this hub. He is a CAT 330 driver now or at least when there is something to dig.

[Dirt Digger2]

ahh wasn't sure if he worked for Ryder or not

[stuvecorp]

What I am interested in the most is if you can haul that much with this sized truck?

I have found close to the same year in International or Pete that are going much cheaper. It is hard to find a truck that has a big front and light weight, everyone seems to spec them for bomb duty.:rolleyes:

[Gravel Rat]

The biggest complaint about the Mecedes Power is no JAKE brake that turbo brake is useless.

When you said the MBE900 that is the small Mercedes its a 7.2 litre engine.

The MBE4000 is the one rated at 475 and its the most common around here. You know if you hear a Sterling go by and it sounds funny its a Mercedes powered truck.

Personally I wouldn't buy a Mercedes stick with Cat or Cummins.

[stuvecorp]

I just think that Mercedes sounds like an Ex-girlfriend.:hammerhead:

GR, I probably will end up with your truck. How about a 94 L8000 with a L10 and 8LL, 16' box. It does have big floats up front but not enought shiny.:cry:

[Gravel Rat]

The L-8000s are usually spec'ed with light running gear yes they can pack a 15 ton load but if you get into any offroading with 40,000lb rear ends watch out.

[Dirt Digger2]

the Mercedes engines are headaches when it comes to working on them...my dads mechanics groan everytime they come into the shop, mainly because not a lot of guys in the US know how to work on them

[stuvecorp]

The L-8000s are usually spec'ed with light running gear yes they can pack a 15 ton load but if you get into any offroading with 40,000lb rear ends watch out.

The worst thing is maybe backing in and out of a ditch and backing around flat lots, we don't do bonzi trucking. It is in decent shape but I don't want one of those, even though it fits the budget. What is going prices for a Ford? That 01 330 Pete still haunts me from last fall.

[Gravel Rat]

Truck prices vary all over. Right now dump trucks are selling cheap because there is not much work for one.

[stuvecorp]

Talked to the owner today and it can haul the max. He went over things with the DOT as far as bridge and per axle. He said everyone moans that it isn't a quad so he can't send it out and they do all big trucking for state or large construction. I figured out it could haul 18 yards of black dirt legally so it could haul more than some guys quads. If nothing else I now know this truck's specs are perfect for me. Just have to find a Pete or International now.

[stuvecorp]

Has anyone had a truck with the ISC Cummins? I think it is rated at 315 horse with an 8LL.

[Gravel Rat]

Too grossly underpowered. You have a 33,000lb gvw truck engine in a 52-54,000lb gvw truck. If you want to tow a tag trailer forget it. A L-10 or M-11 is the smallest Cummins I would go with in a tandem. Even a truck with L-10 power is really slow.

[RockSet N' Grade]

The Rat is right on the hp thing........315 hp won't get you out of your own way, either up hill, down hill or on the flat.

[stuvecorp]

So it wouldn't be to good moving 68,000 up to speed?:) I drove a quad back in the day that had 300 horse and didn't think it was bad but haven't run a big power truck from now a days.

[Gravel Rat]

You have to remember its only a 8 litre engine putting out 315hp. Those types of trucks with C series power in tandem axles usually are for moving vans. Get one in a dump truck with a 15-18 ton load in the box get used to shifting till your leg and arm falls off.

A friend of mine has a Freightliner tandem its a older Business class FL series with 3126 Cat power put any kind of load in the truck and its powerless. The same company he works for has a 7400 International tandem with 530 International power they have constant problems with it the engine is over worked in a tandem. Both a flatdeck delivery trucks they never see any offroad.

There is no replacement for displacement when it comes to tandem axle dumps. Get off road or on any kind of slope if you don't have the low gearing you are not going anywhere if you have small power.

[ksss]

I have had two L-10's in dump trucks. My experience is they are rock solid from a dependability standpoint. They are slow, especially out here. With proper gearing (which is much more important with smaller displacement) they might be fine on such a heavy truck. I think the 8LL fits this engine well, because you can really get low to get a load moving. Besides the dependability, the next best thing was the fuel economy. I will tell you, I can sure notice feeding 300 hp compared to my current 460 hp. The L-10 is in my view a great little motor, but probably not my choice on such a heavy truck, it might be hard to sell later, most guys are gonna want bigger hp, at least out here that is true.

[stuvecorp]

One truck is in Tatorland, must be tough with the elevation and that low of power rating. We don't have that thankfully. I did check and the ISC compared to the Mercedes was 200 ft pounds difference, that has to help and the Pete has 4.89 to 3.9 rear.