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View Full Version : Anyone using Mesa Fert. would like feedback


turf&tree
02-22-2009, 10:17 AM
I recently sat in on a seminar, and one of the speakers was from Lebanon turf.
He was pitching a product called Mesa. I have read everything I can get my hands on about it and it sounds great. Just wondering if anyone had any comments on it. Davey lawncare is supposed to be using it and cutting down to 3 apps for their customers. Seems like a bad business decision to delete an app.$$$$ I would welcome your comments.

robertsturf
02-22-2009, 12:08 PM
We use Mesa fertilizer here in the Midwest. It keeps the lawns greener longer and they don't dry out as fast in the Summer. Compared to SCU it is totaly different chemistry.

quiet
02-22-2009, 12:26 PM
Excellent product. Better color, longer lasting, better turf health.

MStine315
02-22-2009, 02:08 PM
MESA has revolutionized my program. Lasts longer, better color, more efficient so you can use less product than SCU. The mowers love it too, since there's no peaks and valleys in growth. Very consistent release. The quick release part is ammonium sulphate which give awesome color, but since the slow release product is Meth. urea that releases on soil temp., summer apps. are where I use this. I use convential poly coat until Memorial Day or first part of June, and again after Labor Day. I also use the 15-2-5 MESA with Merit...another great product.

MnLefty
02-22-2009, 03:33 PM
Seems like a bad business decision to delete an app.$$$$ I would welcome your comments.

Not if you get paid for a "season program"... If you can charge the same rate, get equal or better results, and do less work you would be coming out considerable $$ ahead!

turf&tree
02-22-2009, 03:51 PM
Thanks for the input. I am going to order it this week.

EBHC
02-22-2009, 03:57 PM
I have used Mesa as well with very good results. I tested it on my own lawn last season. Heavy clay soils, sodded 3 years ago, no irrigation. What I have found is a deeper greener color that lasts longer. No surge growth.

So my questions to the LCO's is if your going to use it, what kind of rates of N and how many apps per season?
And what kind of prices are you seeing in your area for a bag?

quiet
02-22-2009, 04:10 PM
I have used Mesa as well with very good results. I tested it on my own lawn last season. Heavy clay soils, sodded 3 years ago, no irrigation. What I have found is a deeper greener color that lasts longer. No surge growth.

So my questions to the LCO's is if your going to use it, what kind of rates of N and how many apps per season?
And what kind of prices are you seeing in your area for a bag?


1 lbN/M x 5 applications per year. But that's for hybrid bermuda which is a high N user down south. $21.96/bag for 19-0-19 w/62% MESA and SOP.

Breathtaking color, excellent turf health throughout the season.

turf&tree
02-22-2009, 04:18 PM
EB, don't have the specs in front of me on N. I can tell you pricing. 16-0-8 w barracade right around $20 per bag @ 14,500 coverage. 3/4 lb N 32-0-6 $ 19.00 bag @ 16,000 coverage. 1lb N
25-0-5 w/iron$ 20.00 @ 12,500 coverage.1Lb N I am just north of you in Cleve. We get it from Turfgrass Inc. Hope that helps

EBHC
02-22-2009, 04:58 PM
Turf & Tree, thanks!. I'm supposed to have my pricing Monday from Turfgrass. I'll be curious to see how it compares. Is Turfgrass your only supplier of Mesa?

hmartin
02-22-2009, 10:09 PM
1 lbN/M x 5 applications per year. But that's for hybrid bermuda which is a high N user down south. $21.96/bag for 19-0-19 w/62% MESA and SOP.

Breathtaking color, excellent turf health throughout the season.

Do you have any idea what something like Par-Ex 18-9-18 IBDU costs per bag.

I'm looking for a high quality product that is roughly 2-1-2 ratio w/SOP.

Last time I checked, the Memphis Lesco didn't stock anything with SOP.

quiet
02-22-2009, 10:29 PM
Just PM'd ya' hmartin.

EBHC
02-23-2009, 08:06 AM
Turf & Tree
That 20-0-5 product w/Mesa, how much Mesa is in the bag? 51%?
Your price per bag is $11.20 cheaper. I wonder if yours has less Mesa.
Your 32-0-6 was right in line with my numbers.

turf&tree
02-23-2009, 10:10 AM
Same exact product, 51% mesa.

Jason Rose
02-23-2009, 10:38 AM
I'm going to have to do some hunting and find out if there's any place around here that sells the Mesa. I assume it's only in Lebanon brand fertilizers? I sure have never seen anyone using that brand around here...

If it really does what everyone says it does, I'm sold. I'm a mowing guy on top of being the applicator. I'd personally appreicate anything that dosn't make for surge growth and also keeps the turf a nice dark green longer.

EBHC
02-23-2009, 11:24 AM
Turf & Tree, thanks! My guy mad a mistake on his quote.

robertsturf
02-23-2009, 04:32 PM
Jason,

We purchase our Lebanon products from Helena Chemicals in Lenexa, Ks. Ask for John Sheehe, 913-424-6143.

Jason Rose
02-23-2009, 07:37 PM
Thanks Robertsturf. I wish there was somewhere closer to get it. That's a LONG drive for pick-up or dilevery, and I doubt they would deliever what "little" I use all the way here. A semi load sure, but a couple skids?

My fert salesman guy just recently ended his employment with the company I was buying from. I moved to them because of him. He was my salesman from Lesco and a number of 'his' customers followed him. Now that he's gone I'm open for suggestions again. Their pricing certianly wasn't low, but I was getting good products. (This is from GardenWise by the way.) My round one is already partly here, waiting on one other skid. Other than that the rest of my seasons fert needs are not filled. Hence why I was looking at the Mesa. I've seen it around for some time, just always figured it was priced out of my league.

robertsturf
02-23-2009, 07:52 PM
Is there not a supplier in Manhattan, Kansas? Or is that still too far? I usually only buy 1-2 skids per time from Helena and they deliver to me for free. I don't know what they would charge but it might be worth a phone call. They gave me good pricing on 1 and 2 app Mesa w/ Barricade.

hmartin
02-23-2009, 08:19 PM
I got excited about Mesa after reading these posts and called my local dealer. They want $37.49 a bag for the 19-0-19 w/62% Mesa. I guess that I'll have to stick with the SCU.

robertsturf
02-23-2009, 08:27 PM
16-0-8 43 % Mesa .43 barricade 20.15/bag, .375 Barricade 19.75/ bag

BonesMalone
02-23-2009, 10:31 PM
Jason,
You need to call Crop Production Services in Goddard, Ks. (316) 794-2231 & ask for Dwight he will fix you up with the Mesa Fertilizers

quiet
02-23-2009, 10:57 PM
Jason,
You need to call Crop Production Services in Goddard, Ks. (316) 794-2231 & ask for Dwight he will fix you up with the Mesa Fertilizers

Crop Production Services? The one that bought UAP?

UAP never carried MESA, that's strictly a Lebanon product. But UAP was/is a valued supplier with an excellent line of products . . . and a lousy web site that NEVER gave any kind of product info, so I was always stuck with an hour long call to the rep in DFW.

Have they integrated Lebanon products into their line? Or have Lebanon private label blend for them? I believe they did in the past . . .

Any more info available??? I'm almost excited! I can smell competive pricing bidding from 2 different suppliers!

Jason Rose
02-23-2009, 11:12 PM
Jason,
You need to call Crop Production Services in Goddard, Ks. (316) 794-2231 & ask for Dwight he will fix you up with the Mesa Fertilizers

Thanks. I actually used to buy some stuff from UAP, usually UHS products (confusing isn't it?). I know several guys around here that use UHS stuff. It's not as "clean" as Lesco or Shaws, but some guys are out for simply the cheapest thing they can find. If they sell the Mesa/Lebanon products now that would work.

As long as they are within 45 minutes or so to me, that's not too bad. Of course as long as they deliever it's a moot point.

quiet
02-23-2009, 11:16 PM
I always found UAP Products to be just as clean or cleaner than Lesco . . .

UAP had a very high quality line of products at good prices.

Jason Rose
02-23-2009, 11:22 PM
I always found UAP Products to be just as clean or cleaner than Lesco . . .

UAP had a very high quality line of products at good prices.

Maybe so... I've probably been a little brainwashed over what's good and bad... It's so funny that what's the BEST product, according to the salesman, more than likely is what's making them the most money.

Of course I've had my share of dusty fert blends, and stuff that just flat has ground up powder in the mix. It SUCKS to spread, especially if there's a hint of humidity. Cake city. So I'm sensitive to any brand that someone has deemed "dirty".

Funny how UHS, turned into UAP and now it's CPS. All these acronyms give me ADD.

quiet
02-23-2009, 11:33 PM
You missed the Verdicon days in between UHS and UAP!

But as I stated, I've always been very pleased with their products. The best fert I ever used was a UAP 19-2-19 blend w/their MU (MS-40?), AS, biosolids and SOP. Bought all I could at $11.00/bag . . . but this was several years ago!

I used it at green up, and customers were all raving about the color and density.

Jason Rose
02-23-2009, 11:36 PM
According to their site, CPS dosn't sell Lebanon products / Mesa. So if the Goddard Ks. location is they aren't listing it. Of course I agree, their website sucks. I remember the good old days when Lesco had an awesome website, lol.

robertsturf
02-24-2009, 09:34 AM
They might have their own version on Mesa. Helena uses their Promate line of fertilizers with Mesa and you can't find it on their web-site.

heritage
02-24-2009, 10:26 AM
Mesa is very very GOOD. I have nothing but great response from this complex.

Dark Green that Lasts and Lasts.

In this case you get what you pay for.

Get some Mesa.


Pete

MnLefty
02-24-2009, 10:37 AM
MESA has revolutionized my program. Lasts longer, better color, more efficient so you can use less product than SCU. The mowers love it too, since there's no peaks and valleys in growth. Very consistent release. The quick release part is ammonium sulphate which give awesome color, but since the slow release product is Meth. urea that releases on soil temp., summer apps. are where I use this. I use convential poly coat until Memorial Day or first part of June, and again after Labor Day. I also use the 15-2-5 MESA with Merit...another great product.

Marc-

Can you elaborate on which MESA products you're using and the timing and longevity of your apps? Does an equal % of MESA last longer for you than the same % of PSCU?

EBHC
02-24-2009, 12:39 PM
More Mesa questions;
Does Helena truly have a blend with Mesa?
Does UAP now have Lebanon?
Is Lebanon the only manufacture of Mesa?
Or does somebody else make the same product?

Any body have current info?

Time to call my local reps.

Clevelandturfgrass
02-24-2009, 02:55 PM
I recently sat in on a seminar, and one of the speakers was from Lebanon turf.
He was pitching a product called Mesa. I have read everything I can get my hands on about it and it sounds great. Just wondering if anyone had any comments on it. Davey lawncare is supposed to be using it and cutting down to 3 apps for their customers. Seems like a bad business decision to delete an app.$$$$ I would welcome your comments.

Tree&Turf, I think I know who you are. I want to thank you for bringing up the questions on MESA. I/we at Turfgrass, Inc. (Cleveland) have been selling this product for the last 2 years, with exceptional results. I have many customers, Cities and Schools, that have used this product on their athletic field. I was very skeptical when I first was introduced to the idea behind the product. I have become a believer and as a vendor have to have trust in a product, before I personally sell its possibilities. I would like to comment on the Davey going to 3 applications. Some and let me repeat SOME of the Davey CGM (Commercial Grounds Management) locations are and have worked the products into a FULL MAINTENANCE contract program. As long as the turf is green, it is a win win for everyone involved. With budgets being slashed and commercial accounts looking at cutting costs this is a viable option. Please don't take this as a commercial for Turfgrass, Inc., but as a response to your questions. Another selling point to your end users, would be to the fact of taking a "Greener Approach" to how you go to business. "I can provide you with better results, with less product that is broke down by the bacteria in the soil, with less possibility of runoff and burn potential".. If you are getting paid by the application, cut your rates. I have found in some of my own "backyard trials" that you will get roughly 8 weeks out of 3/4#N of 32-0-6 30%Mesa. This is in Northern Ohio. Mesa or MU is not a new concept. It has been in the golf market for years, but has finally become closer in cost to SCU.. Sorry for the long winded response!

MStine315
02-24-2009, 04:46 PM
8-10 weeks here at .75 lbs. 25-0-5 51% MESA.

turf&tree
02-24-2009, 05:29 PM
Hi Luke. As a test I asked my local JDL boys if they have heard of it and the answer was no. I explained to them what it was and asked if they had an alternative to SCU like this. The answer of course was NO!!! I am looking forward to working with people like yourself that have full knowledge of our profession and are going the extra mile to bring us superior products like the ones in your seminar. Its going to be a great year, and a great relationship.
Jim

Josh.S
02-24-2009, 05:35 PM
Tree&Turf, I think I know who you are. I want to thank you for bringing up the questions on MESA. I/we at Turfgrass, Inc. (Cleveland) have been selling this product for the last 2 years, with exceptional results. I have many customers, Cities and Schools, that have used this product on their athletic field. I was very skeptical when I first was introduced to the idea behind the product. I have become a believer and as a vendor have to have trust in a product, before I personally sell its possibilities. I would like to comment on the Davey going to 3 applications. Some and let me repeat SOME of the Davey CGM (Commercial Grounds Management) locations are and have worked the products into a FULL MAINTENANCE contract program. As long as the turf is green, it is a win win for everyone involved. With budgets being slashed and commercial accounts looking at cutting costs this is a viable option. Please don't take this as a commercial for Turfgrass, Inc., but as a response to your questions. Another selling point to your end users, would be to the fact of taking a "Greener Approach" to how you go to business. "I can provide you with better results, with less product that is broke down by the bacteria in the soil, with less possibility of runoff and burn potential".. If you are getting paid by the application, cut your rates. I have found in some of my own "backyard trials" that you will get roughly 8 weeks out of 3/4#N of 32-0-6 30%Mesa. This is in Northern Ohio. Mesa or MU is not a new concept. It has been in the golf market for years, but has finally become closer in cost to SCU.. Sorry for the long winded response!

What is your price/coverage per bag for the 32-0-6 30% Mesa?

MStine315
02-24-2009, 05:47 PM
Marc-

Can you elaborate on which MESA products you're using and the timing and longevity of your apps? Does an equal % of MESA last longer for you than the same % of PSCU?

Sorry, when I posted above I didn't realize that question was directed at me. Yes, this product blows away polycoat/SCU, whatever you want to call it. I would say .75 lbs. MESA is approx. equivalent to a lb. of poly coat. Since it releases on soil temp. it's a much more stable product. You don't lose as much to volatization. It is therefore more "efficient," so a lb. is a lb. Or .75 is actually .75, etc... Yes, it costs more per bag, but when you look at the actual cost, it's much more economical.

Without being too forward, or out of line, if anyone's looking for competitive pricing, PM me. The guys I work with I think can do better than what some of the prices I've seen in earlier posts.

turf&tree
02-24-2009, 06:07 PM
16,000 per bag @$ 19.00/bag but Marc said he can get it cheaper.

turf&tree
02-24-2009, 06:09 PM
How does one send a PM ?

Clevelandturfgrass
02-24-2009, 06:18 PM
What is your bottom line cost? Pricing out bag $ vs. bag $ will never stack up to a SCU product. But when you cost out your bottom line of $/acre and if the span of release allows you to cut back the amount of product used, what is your cost? Price is relative when you talk apples to apples, not apples to oranges. I have printed quotes from other suppliers of SCU products, that when you price out $/acre across the year, are more expensive by 32%. This is comparing a standard 32-0-8 30%SCU to a 32-0-6 30%Mesa. To get the same amount of release across the year (based on averages), you would have to make 5 applications of 32-0-8 30%SCU 5 time every 6 weeks. You will get the SAME results applying 4 applications of 32-0-6 30%Mesa 4 times every 7.5 weeks AT .75#N.. Oh, beyond the saving, 40% less bags to handle. The standard particle size (SGN) of the Mesa products is 210. This allows you to cut your rate without jepardizing the quality of application. MOST standard SGN sizes on the market (LCO) range from the 230-260 range. Make sure you are pricing the products out evenly. Any SCU below 50% is basically an anti-burn urea = 5-6 weeks release. Mesa releases at the same rate no matter what % is present. It is all based on Microbial Bacteria feeding on it in the soil. There are additional products you can add back to your programs to pick the lost one. Add Solu-Cal S as an application. It is a formulated Gypsum product that has the strength of 4 bags of pelletized gypsum. Soil condition without changing PH.. Will actually show results, compared to the "lime money maker" application. If anyone has any more indepth questions, pm me and I can contact you via email. A little fertilizer 101 for today!

turf&tree
02-24-2009, 08:41 PM
Wow, incredible insite into products. Like I said, the start of a beautiful relationship.

MStine315
02-24-2009, 09:13 PM
VERY well written Turfgrass. I occasionally do business with the guys in South Lyon/Novi (Dan Johhanningsmeier) and you represent them well.

heritage
02-24-2009, 09:14 PM
Compairing SCU to MESA is like apples to oranges IMO.

With SCU Urea, both the Sulfur and Urea N are not available for plant uptake until converted to Sulfate and Ammonium, and based on the thickness of the Sulfur/Poly coating and subsiquent rainfall/irrigation, is less efficent.

Mesa you have a homogeneous particle of a longer chain of Urea N as well as a quickly available Ammonical N and Sulfate......A Darker GREEN and can be absorbed by plant roots SAME night as irrigation/rainfall.....No waiting for conversion by Mineralization.

I pay more for the Mesa product and use it with my May and Late June-July apps in Zone 6 on KB,TF, Fine Fescue and PR, with Outstanding AND lasting Color, REGARDLESS of too much rainfall, as the Mesa breaks down a little at a time, wheras SCU will diffuse through the Poly/Scu Coating faster with the same warmer soil temps and high rainfall conditions.

So this is just a little more detail why I prefer the Mesa, when a controlled and Lasting, Dark Green is needed.

Again you get what you pay for in this case, and SCU and Mesa is Apples to Oranges IMHO.

Pete

Whitey4
02-25-2009, 06:33 AM
Last year was my first as a professionally compensated fert and squirt guy. Based on my research and because my volume is low comapred to most of you, I went with Mesa all year. The results were really outstanding. Mesa might only cost me an extra 3 to 4 bucks per app per customer, but it is well worth it in my rookie opinion.

Using Mesa also allows me to seperate from the TruGreens. I tell customers about the products I use. They don't generally understand it, but they know I do things differently, use more expensive materials that give better results.

I tell them they can't get Mesa retail... and how the national companies dont use it. It works, on the turf and with the customers.

turf&tree
02-25-2009, 10:19 AM
Thanks to everyone for the great input. I can't wait to get started with Mesa. I am a firm believer in getting what you pay for. I agree that although it is a few dollars higher my customers will see the best results ever. I have been sending out letters letting them know the features/benefits of Mesa and the feedback has been 100% positive.
Thanks again, Jim

Perfect Image TLM
02-25-2009, 03:10 PM
Damn, just read this entire thread and I need to look into this!

Perfect Image TLM
02-25-2009, 03:26 PM
Anyone know where around St. Louis carries this? What companies carry it so I can see if they have it? I have a JDL and Helena that I know about...

MStine315
02-25-2009, 04:47 PM
Anyone know where around St. Louis carries this? What companies carry it so I can see if they have it? I have a JDL and Helena that I know about...

Try www.lebturf.com I looked to see if they had a distibutor listing and they don't, but it says to contact them. I'm sure they'd find someone close to you. It's worth it, you'll love it.

turf hokie
02-25-2009, 04:56 PM
I didnt realize Mesa was such a big secret, now that the cats out of the bag.

Check with Shemin's Nursery, I dont know if you have any by you but they carry Lebanon.

Clevelandturfgrass
02-25-2009, 05:56 PM
Anyone know where around St. Louis carries this? What companies carry it so I can see if they have it? I have a JDL and Helena that I know about...

Here is our location in St. Louis:
Turfgrass, Inc.
112 Little Bussen Drive
Fenton, MO 63028

Office Phone: 636-305-7100
Sales: Paul Hurst 618-920-6406
Rich Carlson 314-568-7148

I know that they carry Lebanon Mesa. The 3 of us all support the positives of this product line.

Perfect Image TLM
02-25-2009, 06:55 PM
Try www.lebturf.com I looked to see if they had a distibutor listing and they don't, but it says to contact them. I'm sure they'd find someone close to you. It's worth it, you'll love it.

I didnt realize Mesa was such a big secret, now that the cats out of the bag.

Check with Shemin's Nursery, I dont know if you have any by you but they carry Lebanon.

Here is our location in St. Louis:
Turfgrass, Inc.
112 Little Bussen Drive
Fenton, MO 63028

Office Phone: 636-305-7100
Sales: Paul Hurst 618-920-6406
Rich Carlson 314-568-7148

I know that they carry Lebanon Mesa. The 3 of us all support the positives of this product line.

Thanks All!!

straightlineland
02-26-2009, 01:04 PM
I am going to give this a try...the lebanon rep tells me this will help reduce my clippings too, which due to our clientel, we still collect and dispose of.

Perfect Image TLM
02-26-2009, 02:55 PM
EB, don't have the specs in front of me on N. I can tell you pricing. 16-0-8 w barracade right around $20 per bag @ 14,500 coverage. 3/4 lb N 32-0-6 $ 19.00 bag @ 16,000 coverage. 1lb N
25-0-5 w/iron$ 20.00 @ 12,500 coverage.1Lb N I am just north of you in Cleve. We get it from Turfgrass Inc. Hope that helps

Was these prices based on buying pallets or single bags?

I called my local TurfGrass and they quoted me $25.50 per single bag on 16-0-8 with barricade.

straightlineland
02-26-2009, 03:04 PM
here are my prices on the following
15-0-5 40% mesa w/dimension $21.61
19-0-6 33% mesa w/confront 3 $28.02
15-2-5 40% mesa w/.2% merit $26.53
25-0-5 51% mesa $20.51
10-20-15 w/1% fe $23.71

these are per bag prices with a total of 4 pallets purchased. how do these prices compare?

Perfect Image TLM
02-26-2009, 03:54 PM
Just got off the phone with my Local Helena Dealer and they have the 16-0-8 MESA with barricade for around $23.50 per bag so that isn't so bad but he said it only does 10,500 sqft.

pieperlc
02-26-2009, 05:29 PM
here are my prices on the following
15-0-5 40% mesa w/dimension $21.61
19-0-6 33% mesa w/confront 3 $28.02
15-2-5 40% mesa w/.2% merit $26.53
25-0-5 51% mesa $20.51
10-20-15 w/1% fe $23.71

these are per bag prices with a total of 4 pallets purchased. how do these prices compare?

Where did you get this pricing from? Clesen's?

turf&tree
02-26-2009, 06:02 PM
16-0-8 W/Mesa and Barricade should get you 14,500 sq ft. Remember you don't need the heavy rate of N with this product like SCU. If you buy pallet quantities you'll always do better then the per bag. Just placed an order today for 14 more pallets. You only have to put down 3/4 lb of N during a regular app without control products. 16-0-8 your putting down .55 lbs per thousand compared to 1 lb of SCU Totally different world with this technology. As far as pricing you are in the ballpark. We only do combination products on 1st app, so I can't tell you how the rest of your list stacks up. We are trying a new insecticide in liquid form called Acelepryn. Really cool technology virtually no danger to humans,pets,fish. Carries no signal words on the label. Oops, I let the cat out of the bag again. Also available from Turfgrass Inc. I swear I don't work for them.
Jim

Jason Rose
02-27-2009, 10:09 PM
Jason,
You need to call Crop Production Services in Goddard, Ks. (316) 794-2231 & ask for Dwight he will fix you up with the Mesa Fertilizers

Just thought I'd throw out an update to my personal situation, if anyone cares :)

Called Dwight today, and YES, CPS does sell Lebanon products and MESA. He's sending me a catalog for now and going to try to catch up with him soon to nail down some exact prices and just what I want to use this year. My round 1 is already taken care of, but I'm shopping for the rest of the season.

He said that NO lawn care guys around this area are using MESA. It's not that much more expensive, but most guys just want the cheapest product they can get. He said it's mostly high end commercial places that have their own grounds maintenance persons, or athelitic fields that are using it.

MStine315
02-28-2009, 12:40 AM
He said that NO lawn care guys around this area are using MESA. It's not that much more expensive, but most guys just want the cheapest product they can get. He said it's mostly high end commercial places that have their own grounds maintenance persons, or athelitic fields that are using it.

Which is EXACTLY why you should be using it. Set yourself apart from others who are worried about what a bag of fert. costs. Look at your per M price or per acre price and consider what a superior product will provide. No brainer.

mikesturf
02-28-2009, 07:46 AM
here are my prices on the following
15-0-5 40% mesa w/dimension $21.61
19-0-6 33% mesa w/confront 3 $28.02
15-2-5 40% mesa w/.2% merit $26.53
25-0-5 51% mesa $20.51
10-20-15 w/1% fe $23.71

these are per bag prices with a total of 4 pallets purchased. how do these prices compare?

I especially love the merit pricing, where are you buying from. I'm in Streamwood, IL.

Jason Rose
02-28-2009, 09:48 AM
I especially love the merit pricing, where are you buying from. I'm in Streamwood, IL.

I didn't notice that till you pointed it out. That's nuts :dizzy:

And I was quoted around $18.50 a bag for the 25-0-5 51% mesa. Imigine what my Merit price would be :)

Perfect Image TLM
02-28-2009, 11:48 AM
I didn't notice that till you pointed it out. That's nuts :dizzy:

And I was quoted around $18.50 a bag for the 25-0-5 51% mesa. Imigine what my Merit price would be :)

Jason,
Out of curiousity, the price of $18.50 for 25-0-5, was that for single bags or bags when buying a pallet?

Thanks,
James

grassman177
02-28-2009, 12:38 PM
i am using the helena promate with all kinds of different add ins . i love thier stuff. the best results i have ever got and getting better as i fine tune my fert apps. i change every couple of years as better products are introduced and such. i think mesa has found its way to my lawns, i cant remember but more to talk about to john

Jason Rose
02-28-2009, 12:41 PM
Jason,
Out of curiousity, the price of $18.50 for 25-0-5, was that for single bags or bags when buying a pallet?

Thanks,
James

I really don't know. I was just asking some general prices and the guy was pulled over on the side of the road digging thru paperwork to get me those prices. I would assume that's for whole pallets. A lot of places aren't like the old Lesco that let you just walk in and but a few of this or that. They want everything to be ordered in and sold as full pallets.

Perfect Image TLM
02-28-2009, 03:41 PM
I really don't know. I was just asking some general prices and the guy was pulled over on the side of the road digging thru paperwork to get me those prices. I would assume that's for whole pallets. A lot of places aren't like the old Lesco that let you just walk in and but a few of this or that. They want everything to be ordered in and sold as full pallets.

Haven't ran into this problem yet here. Everyone will sell individuals to me so far, just haven't got any prices like alot on here have been quoted. Thanks for the reply...

straightlineland
02-28-2009, 03:42 PM
I am purchasing from Aspen Valley landscape supply.

timturf
02-28-2009, 05:51 PM
Compairing SCU to MESA is like apples to oranges IMO.
With SCU Urea, both the Sulfur and Urea N are not available for plant uptake until converted to Sulfate and Ammonium, and based on the thickness of the Sulfur/Poly coating and subsiquent rainfall/irrigation, is less efficent.

Mesa you have a homogeneous particle of a longer chain of Urea N as well as a quickly available Ammonical N and Sulfate......A Darker GREEN and can be absorbed by plant roots SAME night as irrigation/rainfall.....No waiting for conversion by Mineralization.

I pay more for the Mesa product and use it with my May and Late June-July apps in Zone 6 on KB,TF, Fine Fescue and PR, with Outstanding AND lasting Color, REGARDLESS of too much rainfall, as the Mesa breaks down a little at a time, wheras SCU will diffuse through the Poly/Scu Coating faster with the same warmer soil temps and high rainfall conditions.

So this is just a little more detail why I prefer the Mesa, when a controlled and Lasting, Dark Green is needed.

Again you get what you pay for in this case, and SCU and Mesa is Apples to Oranges IMHO.

Pete

Totally agree with Pete, Doesn't take much to beat scu, and Mesa easily is a much superior product. For you in the East, fighting acid soils, you must watch the sulfer you apply, unless you want to add more lime! For this reason, I don't use Mesa, and hate scu and poly coated scu!

Jason Rose
02-28-2009, 06:28 PM
Well there's an interesting point. Soil pH. Out soils around here generally have a high pH, and sulfur DOES help lower it and the turf responds much better to fert. Using MESA a guy looses the Sulfur normally found in SCU or PSCU products. Though I'm really not sure if it was ever a significant enough quantity to actually aid in lowering the pH.?

I found what I *need* to be doing, is using ammonium sulfate in the fall for my last app. Adding another app of Dispersul into the mix for every lawn would be ideal, but selling the idea would be tough. Yes yes, I know I should do a soil test to EVERY lawn prior to doing any of this...

quiet
03-01-2009, 12:04 PM
MESA has a good dose of sulfur from the ammonium sulfate component. I checked the label on the 19-0-19 w/62% MESA; it's 11.1% sulfur.

fertguy
06-18-2009, 12:57 PM
Yes you are correct that MESA will lower the soil pH...initially. However, your conclusion for soils in the North East being acidic is hard to understand when the majority of soils are of a limestone base and range from 6 to 7.5 pH.

Here is what happens....

If you are using a product that contains 100% MESA (most products available will have 30-50%) you may see as much as a .5 reduction in the pH. This is when the sulfate of ammonia is being broken down and turned into sulfuric acid. It will then be neutralized by the calcium in the soil and that will make the pH return to where it was prior to the application.

SCU will also lower the pH of the soil in the same way as MESA does. This will take longer to do because it is elemental sulfur which is initially unavailable until the bacteria break it down and use it as a food source. The pH will not be lowered as much due to the amount of sulfur, but it still will reduce the pH.

Straight Urea will also lower the pH of soils. I have included a quote from the University of Kentucky.

SLIGHTLY ACIDIFYING FERTILIZERS
• Urea (46%)
• Ammonium nitrate (34%)
• Urea ammonium nitrate solutions (32% and 28%)
These products are slightly acidifying because they contain ammonium or produce ammonium when
applied to the soil. For every pound of actual nitrogen applied, 1.8 lbs of pure calcium carbonate are
required to neutralize the acidity. Kentucky limestone is approximately 67% pure, so approximately 2.7
lbs of agricultural limestone would be needed. For example for a bag of urea (50 lbs) you would need to
apply 135 lbs of agricultural limestone.

Yes straight Ammonium sulfate is more acidifying that Urea, but keep in mind that MESA is only 50% ammonium sulfate and most mixes are 30-50% Mesa which would mean 15-25% ammonium sulfate.

Anyone with a good solid program for their customers should not be concerned about the fluctuation of pH from the MESA because it will be nuetralized by the calcium carbonate.

To not use MESA because of lowering pH is NOT a justifiable reason.

DuWayne
11-20-2009, 07:07 PM
What is your bottom line cost? Pricing out bag $ vs. bag $ will never stack up to a SCU product. But when you cost out your bottom line of $/acre and if the span of release allows you to cut back the amount of product used, what is your cost? Price is relative when you talk apples to apples, not apples to oranges. I have printed quotes from other suppliers of SCU products, that when you price out $/acre across the year, are more expensive by 32%. This is comparing a standard 32-0-8 30%SCU to a 32-0-6 30%Mesa. To get the same amount of release across the year (based on averages), you would have to make 5 applications of 32-0-8 30%SCU 5 time every 6 weeks. You will get the SAME results applying 4 applications of 32-0-6 30%Mesa 4 times every 7.5 weeks AT .75#N.. Oh, beyond the saving, 40% less bags to handle. The standard particle size (SGN) of the Mesa products is 210. This allows you to cut your rate without jepardizing the quality of application. MOST standard SGN sizes on the market (LCO) range from the 230-260 range. Make sure you are pricing the products out evenly. Any SCU below 50% is basically an anti-burn urea = 5-6 weeks release. Mesa releases at the same rate no matter what % is present. It is all based on Microbial Bacteria feeding on it in the soil. There are additional products you can add back to your programs to pick the lost one. Add Solu-Cal S as an application. It is a formulated Gypsum product that has the strength of 4 bags of pelletized gypsum. Soil condition without changing PH.. Will actually show results, compared to the "lime money maker" application. If anyone has any more indepth questions, pm me and I can contact you via email. A little fertilizer 101 for today!
Hello I was just reading threw your post. I would like your thoughts on A program that I have in mind.
I plan to use a mesa fert with a crabgrass control 18-0-5 25% mesa 1st app in late april
I have talked with an agronamist about useing a combination of urea, SCU, AMS. and Methylene urea for a 4-6 wk release getting 1# of N/1000 sqft, he cann't or will not go that route and is suggesting to use AMS.
I had also planned to blend with these 4 Nitrogen sources 4-6# of gypsum.
You seem like you would have good advise with my questions AMS vs mesa vs the Four N combination.
Thanks DuWayne
ALL STAR LAWN CARE

fertguy
11-25-2009, 12:23 PM
DuWayne,

I appreciate you asking me about the idea you have and requesting my feedback.

This is not the first time I have heard this type of question. There is too much information to supply in this type of format for why my answer is DON'T DO THIS, so I will just give you my talking points.

1. There is no magic wand if trying to make one with all the different Nitrogen sources available
2. Cost
3. Too little of each one won't do much
4. Two forms of quick release will make grass grow quick which is bad
5. Put together a concept that is simple = KISS (Keep it simple stupid). This will help you and your workers.

So what would I do? Depends on where you live because there are some really good Calcium sources available in some markets that aren't in others. Not gypsum, limestone, or something like SoluCal, but something better than that and NO I don't sell it.

If you are in a cool season grass climate, then I would put together a solid program that would supply 3-4lbs of N per year, 1 lb of P (if laws allow you to), 2 lbs of K. Too many people have been skimping over the years with trying to get away with less and the grass is showing it. IF there are products available to you that increase nutrient availability then those can reduce the above mentioned numbers I produced, but just be careful. There are good products out there and then there are also "snake oils".

In regards to your blending with Gypsum: I would consider a few things when doing this. 1. Cost? 2. Practical? Do you want to lower the analysis of product and carry more bags, pay for more trucking, slow down production?


If you want to go with a 4 to 6 week program then I would limit the amount of slow release you put in the mix. If you want to go with a 6 to 8 week program of fertilizer then I would increase the amount of slow release. So a 5 app fert program would look something like:

1st app: 0% or 30%-40% slow with pre emerge
2nd app: 30%-40% slow with pre emerge or just straight fert
3rd app: 30%-40% slow with or without grub control - depends on timing
4th app: Same as 3rd - BUT only apply grub once
5th app: Grass dead in your region? spot spray weeds. If not 50% slow release
6th app: 0%-30% slow with higher K levels.

Now let's look at slow release options: SCU, Methylene Urea, MESA, Polyon. SCU is just a coated quick release. Don't like it because it is not consistent and not all of the SCU is a slow release due to coating inconsistencies and damage from handling. 10%-20% of the SCU is not really slow release because of this. Methylene Urea is ok but it doesn't give you green color right away. There are a few different places who manufacture Methylene Urea and some have higher levels of 'catastrophic release' WIN. This is the part of the WIN that you can't determine when it is going to release - NO ONE CAN. MESA - part methylene urea and part ammonium sulfate. This is homogenous and will give you consistent color for up to 8 weeks. It will break down when the plants need it (microbial degredation). Depending on your application equipment and the part of the country you are in, you may want to test this material over the summer. But great product for Spring and maybe fall depending on the program.

I would make a calcium application in the fall. Depend on soil samples when considering the source and don't just go with gypsum. A lot of insoluble calcium is in gypsum. Urea, AMS, and other Nitrogen sources tend to be acidic on the soil. When doing soil samples, only go 3-4 inches. This is where the fertilizer is 'hanging out' and will give you a true reading on the acidity where it is at. Going any deeper will scew the results.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving.

I'm here if you need any additional input.

:usflag:

DuWayne
11-25-2009, 02:23 PM
Hello I was just reading threw your post. I would like your thoughts on A program that I have in mind.
I plan to use a mesa fert with a crabgrass control 18-0-5 25% mesa 1st app in late april
I have talked with an agronamist about useing a combination of urea, SCU, AMS. and Methylene urea for a 4-6 wk release getting 1# of N/1000 sqft, he cann't or will not go that route and is suggesting to use AMS.
I had also planned to blend with these 4 Nitrogen sources 4-6# of gypsum.
You seem like you would have good advise with my questions AMS vs mesa vs the Four N combination.
Thanks DuWayne
ALL STAR LAWN CARE

DuWayne,

I appreciate you asking me about the idea you have and requesting my feedback.

This is not the first time I have heard this type of question. There is too much information to supply in this type of format for why my answer is DON'T DO THIS, so I will just give you my talking points.

1. There is no magic wand if trying to make one with all the different Nitrogen sources available
2. Cost
3. Too little of each one won't do much
4. Two forms of quick release will make grass grow quick which is bad
5. Put together a concept that is simple = KISS (Keep it simple stupid). This will help you and your workers.

So what would I do? Depends on where you live because there are some really good Calcium sources available in some markets that aren't in others. Not gypsum, limestone, or something like SoluCal, but something better than that and NO I don't sell it.

If you are in a cool season grass climate, then I would put together a solid program that would supply 3-4lbs of N per year, 1 lb of P (if laws allow you to), 2 lbs of K. Too many people have been skimping over the years with trying to get away with less and the grass is showing it. IF there are products available to you that increase nutrient availability then those can reduce the above mentioned numbers I produced, but just be careful. There are good products out there and then there are also "snake oils".

In regards to your blending with Gypsum: I would consider a few things when doing this. 1. Cost? 2. Practical? Do you want to lower the analysis of product and carry more bags, pay for more trucking, slow down production?


If you want to go with a 4 to 6 week program then I would limit the amount of slow release you put in the mix. If you want to go with a 6 to 8 week program of fertilizer then I would increase the amount of slow release. So a 5 app fert program would look something like:

1st app: 0% or 30%-40% slow with pre emerge
2nd app: 30%-40% slow with pre emerge or just straight fert
3rd app: 30%-40% slow with or without grub control - depends on timing
4th app: Same as 3rd - BUT only apply grub once
5th app: Grass dead in your region? spot spray weeds. If not 50% slow release
6th app: 0%-30% slow with higher K levels.

Now let's look at slow release options: SCU, Methylene Urea, MESA, Polyon. SCU is just a coated quick release. Don't like it because it is not consistent and not all of the SCU is a slow release due to coating inconsistencies and damage from handling. 10%-20% of the SCU is not really slow release because of this. Methylene Urea is ok but it doesn't give you green color right away. There are a few different places who manufacture Methylene Urea and some have higher levels of 'catastrophic release' WIN. This is the part of the WIN that you can't determine when it is going to release - NO ONE CAN. MESA - part methylene urea and part ammonium sulfate. This is homogenous and will give you consistent color for up to 8 weeks. It will break down when the plants need it (microbial degredation). Depending on your application equipment and the part of the country you are in, you may want to test this material over the summer. But great product for Spring and maybe fall depending on the program.

I would make a calcium application in the fall. Depend on soil samples when considering the source and don't just go with gypsum. A lot of insoluble calcium is in gypsum. Urea, AMS, and other Nitrogen sources tend to be acidic on the soil. When doing soil samples, only go 3-4 inches. This is where the fertilizer is 'hanging out' and will give you a true reading on the acidity where it is at. Going any deeper will scew the results.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving.

I'm here if you need any additional input.

:usflag:

Thank you for your response, it was vary helpful.
Where is a good place to start looking for SoluCal?
I haven't heard of this product yet.
DuWayne

grassman177
11-25-2009, 06:48 PM
i think there is sponsor here for solucal

grassman177
11-25-2009, 06:49 PM
http://www.solu-cal.com/

FERT-TEK
03-23-2010, 08:21 PM
here are my prices on the following
15-0-5 40% mesa w/dimension $21.61
19-0-6 33% mesa w/confront 3 $28.02
15-2-5 40% mesa w/.2% merit $26.53
25-0-5 51% mesa $20.51
10-20-15 w/1% fe $23.71

these are per bag prices with a total of 4 pallets purchased. how do these prices compare?

Straightlineland, who is your distributor? I have been using MESA for years with nothing but good to say about it. Currently, I purchase my products from Arthur Clesens Inc. in Wheeling IL. I thought I would mention that they have a branch in Tinley Park as well and sell the full Lebanon line.

FYI, the Wheeling branch is close enough that I buy my fert as needed and not by the pallet. Currently, I have been quoted the following prices for 2010;

-$24.75 for 16-0-8 with 43% MESA and .43 Barracade ( I alternate Dimension and Barricade yearly.
-$20.40 for 25-0-5 with 51% MESA
-$23.42 for 15-2-5 with 40% MESA and .2 Merit ( Merit and Mach 2 is also rotated annually)

FERT-TEK
03-23-2010, 08:30 PM
I especially love the merit pricing, where are you buying from. I'm in Streamwood, IL.

Mike, you can get the full Lebanon line in Wheeling at Arthur Clesens Inc. and I was quoted 23.42 for the 15-0-5 with Merit and MESA

Piper where are you out of that you know about Clesens?

fertguy
03-24-2010, 10:16 AM
I am sorry I never wrote you back regarding where to purchase SoluCal. The answer to your question is I don't know. Don't get hung up on that product. There are other products on the market that do the same thing and others that I believe are even better. Here are the ones I know about and my ranking:

1. Physiocal - this can be purchased by Synatek. They are a company based out of the Philadelphia PA region. I am not sure how far they reach but this product is the best. It is a calcified seaweed that provides not only calcium and magnesium but 32 trace minerals. It is soft and the calcium in this product is more soluble then any other prouct on the market. It also contains material that stimulates the soil microbes to break down thatch. I have used this in the past and have seen amazing results on sod fields, on yards, and also in gardens. This product has a unique charateristic in that it is a neutral pH product that will help raise the pH if below but it can also be used in high pH soils as well. Potatoe farmers use this material in the place of gypsum. Regular limestone can not be used because of the high pH.

2. SoluCal or Old Castle has a product too. Both of these are a limestone material that contains carboxylic acid. This acid is good at making things more available and improving the efficiency of the limestone, but it is still no match for the benefits within the Physiocal.

3. There are also some products that use Gypsum and Carboxylic acid. Solucal has one and there are others on the market too. Again, it is working with a stone based product. Gypsum is better at soluble calcium but again, taking that product and comparing the benefits and results of using the Physiocal is no match.

All I can tell you is my experience, and I hope it helps. If you want to talk about this further, we should probably start a different thread since we are discussing Calcium, soil, etc. under a thread focusing on LebanonTurf and that freakin awesome MESA product.