Progress and more questions

[bicmudpuppy]

I am still working on the CT brewer, but with all the information I am getting from here and everything else I can read, I think things are moving in the right direction. 60 degree days are here for a bit, and I don't expect to see temps that don't get above the magic 40 until next winter now. I put 1/4#N/m as ammonium sulfate down on my greens about 15 days ago. I hope to repeat that application either at the end of this week or the first of next week with the addition of molasses.

How heavy can you get with the molasses before you have exceeded what the molasses will do? You feed the herd in a brewer at something like 2-4oz/100gal? So, how far will molasses go sprayed to turf and watered in? 1 gal/A is about 3oz/m. I am thinking that the 1gal/A rate as a spoon feeding would be heavy enough. Now, some help with my memory of how the organic chemistry works. Can I count the molasses as nutrient? If so, how do I quantify it?

Next, compost: Grass clippings. I can't burn the rough, so scalping it is the next best answer. Things are greening up underneath. Revenue will increase if I look "green". I collect the clippings and begin composting. What can I do to maximize the compost activity to degrade lawn type clippings? These would be dormant "brown" clippings. Green clippings will have to be collected some, once spring kicks in, but we try to mow more frequently rather than collect clippings from anything but greens. I can add some soil, I have the ash from some of the leaves and wood we burned last fall and this winter. The old pile has HEAT :) I checked it today. I can incorporate the new into the old in "small" quantities. Any thoughts on how to monitor and tell when the pile is ready for more clippings? It can't happen magically now, but for future, how much clippings will a worm bed "eat"? I have always been told that grass clippings are some of the slowest materials to compost. Start to finish, how "long" is long? I need to back track and work on manure sources again. Nothing has "fruited" from previous contacts so far.

[treegal1]

oh i see....................

[treegal1]

Can I count the molasses as nutrient? If so, how do I quantify it?

I just shot port out my nose................ does this mean any fixed N I have to count??


its sugar and carbs and Fe, great chelator

[bicmudpuppy]

I just shot port out my nose................ does this mean any fixed N I have to count??


its sugar and carbs and Fe, great chelator

You know I know there is no actual N in the sugar (or there shouldn't be, unless I have completely forgotten my organic chem). I was looking for a relationship between the molasses app and nutrient levels. The target for the application isn't "dead", so the reaction to the molasses should be as fast or slow as the temperature permits. With a pure sugar type app, how much can I expect from the aerobic activity in regards to soil chemistry? Improved biology should mean overall improvements. Is one app enough to see an "explosion" in chemistry? or is a repeat app in ten days to two weeks adequate? or to soon? Is a 30 day follow up more realistic? How important is soil temp going to be in this? Soil is above freezing (35 degrees) and should be above 40, I haven't taken a 2" and 4" reading lately. With great sunshine and 60+degree highs, the daytime "surface" temps are going to be "warm". Maybe even above the 60 degree air temp.

The answers are probably out there somewhere. Some of it I should remember, despite the damaged brain cells, from college. Most of the golf maint. forum discussions are vague and have more of a "I think it works, it seems to help, no idea why" feel to them.

[bicmudpuppy]

Things are greening up underneath. Revenue will increase if I look "green". I collect the clippings and begin composting.

I just re-read and realized that, because of the location, that didn't sound like I meant it. "Green" was not meant to mean organic. I live, work, breathe in a micro-economic climate that is funded, operated, and supported by Natural Gas and Oil. You say "organic" here and you are a CA tree hugger. I justify my interest in an organic approach by talking money and agronomy. "Green" as it is normally accepted in this forum is good stewardship and agronomically more stable than "spray and pray" with synthetics.

The above quote was about actually promoting and having "green" color vs the dormant brown grass that looks so much like the rest of the surrounding desert. Bringing back the Oasis look in the spring, cultivates spring fever. That brings out the golfers and increases revenue. I have ordered green spray indicator dye to go with the applications. Again, it is a totally synthetic look, but it provides the mental picture that will pull in golfers from other areas. I "look" like spring, so my course is healthier and better to play. Doesn't matter that the grass really isn't growing well yet. They have been stuck in side all winter and want to PLAY :)

[treegal1]

man your like a stray, ok so the carbs feed the herd that then goes into a weird single cell BDSM re-pro deal like in high gear, and they poo them self's in the works of it all that is mostly N in the form of ammonium, the rest of the remains is mostly protein and you know the break down.....

pure sugar is complex and one type of sugar, the black goo is all sorts of things even high in P, Mg along with some complex carbs, you will see something happen if you a looking, the 3rd app will melt away the thatch...... then its worm herding time............

[bicmudpuppy]

man your like a stray, ...........

Sorry TG. And I feel more like one with my work computer down. Fighting with the kids for computer time when I finally get home..........sux?

[treegal1]

:laugh::laugh::laugh:run varmits to bed with you all!! yeah kids....:laugh::laugh::cry:

[Kiril]

Can I count the molasses as nutrient? If so, how do I quantify it?

Yes and no. Yes it contains "nutrients", but that is not the reason for using it. The effective nutrient turnover as a result of the stimulated microbes will depend largely on environment and available food. As far as your molasses persistence, I would expect that to be gone in a matter of days, which is why I do not support molasses for anything other than a temporary measure.

Soil temps do matter, and if your turf isn't starting to green up on it's own, then they are not high enough for a molasses application IMHO.

Bic, I hope you are only bagging clippings on that greens .... right?

As far as when to add is concerned, that depends on how your compost operation is setup. Are you doing it windrow style, 3 pile style, etc...?

Turf grass clippings decompose very quickly. Look at the C:N ratio to judge how quickly a material will decompose.

[bicmudpuppy]

Soil temps do matter, and if your turf isn't starting to green up on it's own, then they are not high enough for a molasses application IMHO.

Bic, I hope you are only bagging clippings on that greens .... right?


.

Gong to try this from thhe phone......

I will be picking up/removing some clippings from the first one or two cuts w/ a sweeper/vac. We also sweep when we get behind and the clippings pile up. Other than that, no, we do not removee clippings.

Right now, I have one compost pile. I plan to work it tomorrow, w/ an emphasis on getting to a multi pile setup. Is windrowing more efficient?

[Kiril]

Right now, I have one compost pile. I plan to work it tomorrow, w/ an emphasis on getting to a multi pile setup. Is windrowing more efficient?

It is more a volume thing than anything I would think. The multi-pile method will probably work best in your situation.

[treegal1]

now you need that blower for a ASP or ASW

[Prolawnservice]

See, thats where you use the fan blower, not in the tea brewer:nono:

[bicmudpuppy]

Compost pile.......Moisture content? I guess I'm going to water the pile tomorrow :( Pile has heat, but very little decomposition and is VERY dry!! Goal would be around 20%? Should be enough moisture for the composting material to pack with some effort, right?

[treegal1]

errr... you need a scale and a microwave oven........ but yes wetter is better

[DUSTYCEDAR]

SHE SAID IT LOL
yes wetter is better

[bicmudpuppy]

errr... you need a scale and a microwave oven........ but yes wetter is better

microwave??? Let'z assume I can do a moisture test, what are we looking for as a target moisture content? To wet and we start to lose air exchange!

[treegal1]

compost council says 20-80 but i go for 50% and if its over then just add air, that blower will force it in. you must remind your self that most of the air is burned up after 24 hours at 23:1 C;N ratio

[bicmudpuppy]

compost council says 20-80 but i go for 50% and if its over then just add air, that blower will force it in. you must remind your self that most of the air is burned up after 24 hours at 23:1 C;N ratio

So, at zero humidity, full sun, and 60+ degree days, I can almost flood the pile, turn it over, and start again tomorrow. I knew there had to be some things about the desert I didn't really like. I haven't blown the money on a blower for the brewer yet. A blower for the compost pile is going to have to wait. By next week, I can have the irrigation turned on so I don't have to run a water truck out to it. In the mean time, I will spread it out, water it, pile it back up and do it again the next day. I realize that "over working" the pile will slow things down, but I'm going to have to work it fairly hard just to keep it wet.
Dry like it is and mostly lawn waste, it is still fairly hot. (steam when turning it over in 65 degree air.) Best guess on moisture would be less than 10%, and if you doubt, realize I had a sand sample tested last fall after the rains started that lab tested at less than 1%.

[treegal1]

well for now more water and try and find a drill and some pvc that needs more holes. then just put it in the middle of the pile with the ends sicking out and its a passive aerated pile. try some shorter watering's and more of them.... and avoid run off and your in the game........

[Prolawnservice]

According to Dr I the best quality compost is only turned three or four times. Taking the pile apart every day I don't think would be a good idea if your trying to create a high quality compost.

[treegal1]

prolawn, I try and i try.... he dont get it............ i even post the pics for the ones that are not able to imagine

[Prolawnservice]

maybe if enough people nuge him in the right direction........

[bicmudpuppy]

I didn't get to do anything with the pile today. It needs WATER. No doubt about that. How quickly it will dry back out will determine more how to handle it than anything else I can think of. What I have been reading says that ideal moisture is just over 50%, provided good air exchange still happens. They also say that drier is better than to wet, so.........if I get it to sponge, but not totally saturated and pile it up good, water lightly externally with no run off, and don't work it until it dries out, does that mean I've done all I can to let it cook on its own as much as possible? How dry do I let it get before I give in and work it? If it drops below 20% or can I let it get closer to 10%? I hope any that answer understand just how dry 10% is!! I would bet that decent compost material would suck enough moisture out of the air in TG's house to stay above or near 20%!

[treegal1]

I would bet that decent compost material would suck enough moisture out of the air in TG's house to stay above or near 20%! bad topic with my roof leaking, from the condo above..........



ok, so letting you die of dehydration and throwing you in a lake, not good. if you have that little moisture then cover the pile and use a suction type aeration.........
also like prolawn says, less turn the better!!!!! 3 x at 135 deg is the law......

[bicmudpuppy]

I think I have some drip tube around still. If I wrap the top of the pile with 15-20gph, I MIGHT be able to keep the moisture from "escaping". As I think about it, all I really need to to do, once I get a good saturation is keep the outer level pretty wet. As long as I don't stop respiration with the running water, things could work out.

[treegal1]

down here we can lose 5-10% of the pile/ water in about 2 days, great place for invessil.. if not try and cover it some ( just on top)

[treegal1]

its all black and white now???

[bicmudpuppy]

I'm going to have to live w/o the blower. A - no power, B - no blower. Like I said, I didn't get to do anything with it today, but I do think I have some small drip tube that I can hook up to get it wet and keep it wet. Also, when I left it, I did cover it. I don't have any material that qualifies as actual finished compost, but I did have some nearly composted aerification plugs that I top dressed the pile with. Pile is a little bit tall (maybe a bit over 6', but the "meat" of the pile is at the 5' level I am reading is ideal to help with air exchange). I've got the hands doing the first clean up mowing for the season (didn't quite make 70 today). I think they picked up about 4cu yds of dry grass clippings today. That is maybe 10-15% of what will get collected over the next week to then days. I am considering having them dump greens clippings into a couple of trash cans instead of casting them out like we have in the past. Still no access to animal manure, but I'm working on it. I think I will have the brewer together by mid March. I've got my eye on a sweet 3phase blower, but it would only be good at the course. I am not going to get 3 phase power at the house if I wanted to move the brewing operation "home".

What would be the ethical concerns if I decided to aerate my pond with a large fountain and added herd material and feed to the irrigation pond? You would never get the populations that you would have in a confined brewer, but would the herd survive and thrive in a high oxygen environ of that size in diluted numbers? or would the population be so diluted it could not sustain itself?

[Smallaxe]

...

What would be the ethical concerns if I decided to aerate my pond with a large fountain and added herd material and feed to the irrigation pond? You would never get the populations that you would have in a confined brewer, but would the herd survive and thrive in a high oxygen environ of that size in diluted numbers? or would the population be so diluted it could not sustain itself?

They use aeration in lakes and ponds for the purpose of dissolving organic matter with the use of microbes.

[bicmudpuppy]

Started watering the pile today. Just short of 80' of 1/4" drip tube with extruded 1gph emitters every 6". Turned it down and I'm probably only getting .5gph from them. In the 30+mph winds today, it doesn't look like it is doing a lot of good, but I will just let it run til we start to show signs of the pile getting "wet" :)

Also got a line on some horse manure today. Probably can't get a dump truck til late next week or next weekend, but should be able to start hauling in 3-5yds of manure every other week soon. If the pile gets wet from the above measures, I probably won't re-stack it and incorporate the manure for ten days or so. Then I can let it cook twice more before starting to think I might have finished compost.

I do have a microscope coming as well :) Have a line on an adapter to fit my digital SLR camera to it as well!

[bicmudpuppy]

Camera adapter is going to have to wait. Got a 240v single phase vacuum motor on E-bay. Going to need the bulk head fittings more than I'm going to need the camera adapter right away. Blower should push 50"+ H20 at 75 or more CFM. Can't find the exact model for specs on the net, but same manufacturer and similar 2 stage blowers are close to that. Taking the smaller of the similar numbers.

[bicmudpuppy]

I hope this isn't buried here, but I didn't want to start another topic. Calculating ET isn't one of my strong points. I generally take the variables given and make sure they actually fit my site and work them. The hardest one for me is the actual "sunshine" factor. That magic constant that varies from region to region and site to site. What would the ET of my compost pile be? Yesterday was 15-20% humidity, and that is reasonably high for day time humidity here. It will get drier as the season progresses. I have 80' of 1/4" drip tube looped to 4 points from a 3/4" hose. I am sure they are applying .5gph or more, so I have more than 1gpm going onto the pile and 8-10 hours of water yesterday didn't even begin to get things wet. Over 4 more hours this AM when I checked it was not making a dent that I can see. I haven't tried to core into the pile yet, but I am slightly concerned. Pile is right at 5' tall and about 12' in diameter. Without evaporative loss, I would have flooded yesterday, early. Air temp was about 60 for a high yesterday.

Does the estimated ET for turf from the engineers when they did my water use survey of 7.5"+ help?

[treegal1]

can you feel it coming..........................

[Kiril]

Does the estimated ET for turf from the engineers when they did my water use survey of 7.5"+ help?

Not unless you know the E part of the ET. I'm about to leave but I will pull the necessary docs from my archive for you tomorrow and/or explain how to do it.

[Kiril]

Bic,

Here you go. I pulled my docs and if you are interested I will post them, but most of it is just alot of math which you probably don't want to do. The Hargreaves and Samani method is used by the Smartline and requires very little data to use. I can post you that info if you want.

So I looked around for an easy reference for you and came up with the following.

Relatively cheap ET gauge you can use for irrigation scheduling.

http://www.novalynx.com/255-700.html

Quick and rough determination of ref ET (Blaney-Criddle method)

http://www.fao.org/docrep/s2022e/s2022e07.htm#3.1.5%20indicative%20values%20of%20eto

Personally, given your situation, I would get the gauge as this will serve multiple purposes.

If you have ETo numbers available to you (mm/day), multiply that by 0.3 and that should give you a rough approximation of your piles "ET" in mm/day. Naturally, you will need to monitor the pile to see how close your calculation is.

[bicmudpuppy]

Kiril, I get ET. I have been through the calculations they used to justify the water I am allowed here at this property when the petition was presented to the State Engineers office. Your last part gives me what I wanted to know, but it doesn't match what I am "seeing". Your saying that my pile should be using about 30% of what turf would use. The crop factors for my applications are easy to plug in, but I don't get to use "turf" as a standard. The difference between BG @ a HOC of 2-3" vs .5" is dramatic. The difference between BG at any height and a bentgrass golf green @ .125" is another leap. The pile I have appears to be using about twice the water I would expect a golf green to use.

I did get the pile fairly wet by running the drip tube all day yesterday and all night last night. Over the last 48 hours, I have put aprox. 1200gal of water into an area that is only about 12cu yds. It lost about 6" in height through the night and has an average internal temp of about 110 degrees today.(top was cooler initially until it had a chance to adjust from the water being turned off)

Does it sound reasonable for the pile to NEED or use that much water?

[Kiril]

Your last part gives me what I wanted to know, but it doesn't match what I am "seeing". Your saying that my pile should be using about 30% of what turf would use.

Yes, that doesn't completely surprise me. Consider the following:

1) I used a Kc of 0.3 which should roughly approximate bare ground.
2) Your pile was dry, so it is taking alot of water to get the moisture level up
3) Temperature of the pile is not compensated for in the Kc.

The crop factors for my applications are easy to plug in, but I don't get to use "turf" as a standard. The difference between BG @ a HOC of 2-3" vs .5" is dramatic. The difference between BG at any height and a bentgrass golf green @ .125" is another leap. The pile I have appears to be using about twice the water I would expect a golf green to use.

This is where an on-site ETo (determined daily) would be extremely useful. While that gauge is no lysimeter, it is better than nothing.

I did get the pile fairly wet by running the drip tube all day yesterday and all night last night. Over the last 48 hours, I have put aprox. 1200gal of water into an area that is only about 12cu yds. It lost about 6" in height through the night and has an average internal temp of about 110 degrees today.(top was cooler initially until it had a chance to adjust from the water being turned off)

Does it sound reasonable for the pile to NEED or use that much water?

Have you measured the moisture content of the pile? I can understand how it might take a large amount of water to get the moisture content up, question is, how much will it take to keep it there?

[bicmudpuppy]

Have you measured the moisture content of the pile? I can understand how it might take a large amount of water to get the moisture content up, question is, how much will it take to keep it there?

I don't have anything like Peter's fancy moisture meter. I have an ell cheapo, but it doesn't give results worth talking about. If I really need to know, I do it the old fashion way and do a wet vs baked dry weight, but after almost thirty years of working turf, I find a check probe and a small core or two from an offending area puts me in the right ball park every time. Getting a core from my pile is somewhat more difficult. I can "feel" how wet it is with a probe, but I can't get a sample out without making a fairly large hole in it. I'm going to work on feel until I turn it over. I want to see how "hot" it will get before it starts to cool down. The horse manure will be here possibly today. I'm going to start a new pile with half of what they bring me, and then incorporate the other half into this pile when it is "ready". At that time, I will know if what I'm trying to do is keeping moisture in the pile. Putting the drip tube under the last few scoops of material before I cover it with some soil is also an option when I re-build the pile for its second heat up.

[bicmudpuppy]

This is where an on-site ETo (determined daily) would be extremely useful. While that gauge is no lysimeter, it is better than nothing.


Water use is so much more than just ET. ET gives a good basis for adjustments, but where my sand content varies from 70%+ to some spots that acutally have decent top soil and less than 25% sand, it doesn't tell enough. Understanding ET is a must and an ET meter or the resources some of the "smart" irrigation controllers are great, BUT nothing beats a professional who is ON SITE. That is what I get paid for, and what I like to think I am good at. I talked to one of the chem sales guys last week. When we talk, the conversation revolves around the soil samples he has done for me and cost of N/#. His humic acid is 6%, I have another source that is 10%. They are not the same and he understands that I understand :) We talked about the number of guys in similar positions where he does there job. He takes the samples, and then tells then where, what and when to apply. This is not quite the same as the Scots 5 step you can buy at ACE, but to me, it is very similar. My soil temps yesterday, mid morning were 51 degrees on greens @ 1" and a fairly consistent 50 degrees @ 3" all over the course. My pond water temperature was 61 degrees @ 6". My temp probe isn't long enough to do better w/o wading. I will get a "running" water temp the next time I have the water on. That will give me a fairly close temp of the water @ 6' deep. 50 degree root zones means things are going to start popping around here very quickly. I applied .5#N/m as ammonium sulfate Friday evening and Saturday AM. I included 2 gal of molasses/A and a wetting agent in the tank mix. I will do .25#N/m with another gallon of molasses/A later this week.

[Kiril]

Water use is so much more than just ET. ET gives a good basis for adjustments, but where my sand content varies from 70%+ to some spots that acutally have decent top soil and less than 25% sand, it doesn't tell enough. Understanding ET is a must and an ET meter or the resources some of the "smart" irrigation controllers are great, BUT nothing beats a professional who is ON SITE.

I completely agree. ET gives you a reference point to work with, but it is not the end all determination of irrigation requirements. Site conditions will vary and need to be compensated for, and this goes beyond just water management.

50 degree root zones means things are going to start popping around here very quickly.

I agree. In my neck of the woods, 53-55 soil temps is where I start to see it.

[bicmudpuppy]

3" soil temp was 52 this AM. I applied another round of molasses w/ .25#N/m as ammonium sulfate to half the greens. I will finish the other half tomorrow AM. Applied the molasses @ 1.25gal/A this time. It has been 5 days since the first application. I have been using a green indicator dye and have an artificial green color to the turf as it comes out of dormancy. The artificial part won't last much longer :) The best part about the "fake" green is my GM likes it. Selling him on letting me do an app on the fairways was now easy. That means that as soon as I have water, I can apply molasses and some N to the fairways as well, all in the name of spraying some "color". Co-Op is sending me 55 gallons of molasses next Tuesday.

Compost pile...........not working. The drip irrigation was not even close to even watering. Much of the grass that wasn't mixed well was hydrophobic. They brought me about 5yds of horse manure Monday and I decided to start over. I now have 4 piles, all of it well mixed and watered as I built them. First 3 piles are the first pile only smaller w/ the manure added. Pile 4 is manure and grass clippings only and isn't a "true" pile yet. More of what some of my reading would call a "cold" pile. Storage of good material waiting to be composted. No water applied to that material yet. After 48 hours, what is now 3 piles seem to be holding decent moisture (two cloudy days have helped) and are at or near 100 degrees throughout. I will check them daily. I don't want to work them again until they start to "cool down". Then I will water, turn them, and water again. Also, these "new" piles are more manageable for my little front loader tractor. My Kubota front loader is a "gutless wonder". (biggest loader on the smallest tractor they could afford/justify)

[DUSTYCEDAR]

Off and running nice work

[bicmudpuppy]

Piles were dry today :( Also had cooled down to about 90. I watered them well. Spent about an hour with a 3/4 hose moving back and forth between piles to let it all soak in. All that water and by the time I shut the water off and got the probe back out, I had increased in temp. Wasn't back to 100 yet, but I am sure it will be tomorrow. Isn't water amazing! Got the notice the blower shipped today! No tracking info yet, but I've got a number. I will get to find out next week how much air it will actually move.