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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-27-2009, 07:31 AM
As some of you may know by now, and many of you will not, Nightscaping is closing its doors today.

It is a long story, with too many details to get into here.

Needless to say, there are a lot of contractors, distributors, Reps., agents, employees and friends in shock.

I will be leading the charge to encourage a lot of Nightscaping Loyal Contractors to join our ranks here at Lawnsite, as a means of continued communication. We are a tight knit group and we need a means of communicating with each other, to help each other find alternative products that will satisfy our needs. It is going to be a trying time for many, especially those who were 100% loyal to the brand.

I hope that everyone who participates in this forum will step up to the plate and help out some very good people who will be looking for lots of advice and guidance about other products they can use in their business. To the other manufacturers represented here, and those who read the forum but do not participate... Please chill.... be patient. I have already seen a couple of emails circulating that are encouraging Nightscaping Contractors to switch over to ABC Brand. I can tell you that such early efforts are largely unappreciated by those who have received them. Let the dust settle a bit... many of us feel like we have just lost a life long friend, to some it is more like a family member.

Have a good day.

NightLightingFX
02-27-2009, 11:01 AM
What? Just like THAT and they are closed? No one else is taking over their opperations?

djt22
02-27-2009, 11:05 AM
Just spoke with a lady at nightscaping and they are closing their doors next week for reorganization and anticipate that to be for only a week. She was preparing an email from the president explaining what is gonna to happen. Hope this helps.

irrig8r
02-27-2009, 11:06 AM
I'm going to take a wait and see position... I haven't heard anything official yet.

James usually has accurate info, but I'm sort of the "doubting Thomas" type... skeptical by nature.

I believe it was Mark Twain who once said: "The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated".

djt22
02-27-2009, 11:14 AM
Somebody else give a call and see what they say. May they will post on here what is going on?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-27-2009, 11:39 AM
What? Just like THAT and they are closed? No one else is taking over their opperations? It is a very complex and difficult situation. Much too complex and, quite frankly, personal in nature to get into here.

Just spoke with a lady at nightscaping and they are closing their doors next week for reorganization and anticipate that to be for only a week. She was preparing an email from the president explaining what is gonna to happen. Hope this helps. Yes that is the latest 'word', as of this morning... However, there are some internal hurdles that must be overcome and quickly... Perhaps Nighscaping will rise out of this situation but it will take some doing.

Somebody else give a call and see what they say. May they will post on here what is going on? I am highly doubtful you will see any comment from an Official at the company here, in a public forum. I will keep you all abreast of what I know as it happens, but for now we do know that operations have ceased as of today.

I can only hope that something will change immediately with the Ownership and Management of the business. There is some hope of this happening. Your support for the ongoing business of the company would be appreciated. Pick up the phone and call in, send emails and let them know how important their continued operations are to your business. Nightscaping is owned by a human being after all... Perhaps her decision can be influenced by the support of friends, colleagues and customers.

With fingers crossed....

JoeyD
02-27-2009, 12:24 PM
This is terrible news. Some may think that we would relish in hearing news like this but it is sad to see such a large part of the lighting industry fall. Hopefully they find a way to pull out and make it. Our well wishes go out to all the employees and members of the Nightscaping family.

irrig8r
02-27-2009, 12:45 PM
Excerpted from an email from Bill Locklin's widow, La Vesta Locklin.

I hope she doesn't mind my sharing it here:


"....I want to let all of you know the truth behind the rumors floating out there. Nightscaping is sending our employees home for a few days on 2-27-09 while we regroup. Due to the economic conditions right now, we have exhausted our working capital. We have not closed Nightscaping, and we will be answering our phone every work day. Right now and in the next few days there are Nightscaping supporters out there who are organizing investors to provide enough working capital to get us moving again. There are also several lighting companies who are interested in the company, who appear to be interested in adding a division to their company. However, my preference is to keep the business going as is, with new resources....

....We are extremely optimistic about the loyal people all over this country and beyond, who are so fiercely loyal to Nightscaping. There are hundreds of families dependent on our success, and I am committed to working on this to a successful solution. Please don't let the rumors destroy your involvement with us. I will keep you informed, and hopefully in just a few days you will hear from me again. NIGHTSCAPING WILL LIVE ON!!!"

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-27-2009, 01:56 PM
Certainly hopeful words. I too received the email from LaVesta and it is an encouraging change of tune from the information I received only 24 hours ago.

Perhaps there will be some sugar to put in my lemonade after all.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-27-2009, 03:33 PM
Perhaps this thread was started pre-maturely... for this I apologize.

Stay tuned.

Down, but most certainly not out!

Lite4
02-27-2009, 07:56 PM
Oh nuts, if they go down there go my Ace Connectors! I hope they can pull it together for all the families that would be negatively effected. Best of luck!

The Lighting Geek
02-27-2009, 08:03 PM
25 years or so ago, I trotted out into a yard with a green wooden tool box with a small transformer and 6 or 7 lights in it, with a Nightscaping logo on the side. I have very fond memories of starting my lighting career with Nightscaping and even though I have not used their products for a while, I hope they can make it over this hurdle.

Venturewest
02-27-2009, 09:55 PM
I recieved the email also, and though I have not used Nightscaping, I hope for the lighting industry and American manufacturing that the optimism of restructuring will come to fruition.

Bill S
02-28-2009, 01:53 PM
Being a loyal nightscaping guy I was disheartened when I heard the news. I do think Ms Locklins email is trying to "save face" for whatever restructure she is trying to push. Seems maybe she should have been working that end harder earlier.

I do hope they pull through, I really like working with their products and their staff. They have been very good to me in my lighting endeavors.

irrig8r
02-28-2009, 03:41 PM
One of the most confusing aspects of all this to me is how it happens right as the company is premiering its new line of LED-lamped fixtures and celebrating 50 years in business with (from what I heard) a large booth at the CLCA Landscape Industry Show in LA.

It says to me that there might be some communication problems between management and ownership at the company in the wake of Bill's passing, and that they really need to find a common focus...

Those of us who have a lot of Nightscaping product out in the field with potential warranty or parts issues in the future will be effected by whatever decisions are made.

And it serves as a reminder that a "lifetime warranty" is only as good as long as the longevity of the company issuing it.

David Gretzmier
02-28-2009, 03:50 PM
I too, can echo that I started with nightscaping, and have not used nightscaping products in quite awhile. Hopefully this company can restructure to stay afloat and even thrive.

It is my hope that the company reopens with a product line that reflects what many landscape light installers like Geek and myself are buying these days.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-28-2009, 04:16 PM
We are all hoping that the business re-opens quickly and that a restructuring plan is set in place. But to hope or think that they will return to business with a completely new/different product line than the one that they currently make is just simply unreasonable.

I would have loved to see the booth with all the LED powered fixtures... what a surprise that would have been! Hopefully things will get straightened out in short order and the powers that be will be able to forge ahead with the business.

A LED powered INTEGRALiter! Now that sounds very cool to me. :)

Lite4
03-01-2009, 12:24 AM
I too, can echo that I started with nightscaping, and have not used nightscaping products in quite awhile. Hopefully this company can restructure to stay afloat and even thrive.

It is my hope that the company reopens with a product line that reflects what many landscape light installers like Geek and myself are buying these days.

I have never purchased NS products just for the very reason you stated. It seems like they are about 10 years behind on their product line (I know, a slight exageration) but cmon, manus like Unique, Vista, Fx, Vision 3, Hunza, etc and etc.. These all have very nice, MODERN looking fixtures in finishes that are very pleasing to our customers eyes and tastes. Sorry, I don't mean to offend some of you loyal NS guys out there but with the exception of a few decent fixture offerings there is a lot of strange looking stuff in their product line I would never put in my customers houses. Just speculating here, but could their current financial situation have anything to do with contractors who have "started with NS" only to leave and go to fixture lines that are somewhat more appealing? It seems to be a recurring theme from the posts I am reading here. Perhaps it is time for them to reinvent themselves, much like Unique did years ago when only selling, for the most part, well lights and transformers. Now look at them! Same thing with Vista, the Brass and copper products they are turning out are sleek, clean and great products. Perhaps a little restructuring and mind set shift is in order. Stepping back to look and regroup is not always a bad thing!

irrig8r
03-01-2009, 01:00 AM
I prefer some Nightscaping fixtures to fill particular niches where there is nothing comparable, but I do believe they may offer too many different fixtures in their line, especially cast and extruded aluminum... though I admit I have a particular bias against those.

I also have a bias, based on my own experience, against the continued use of powder-coated phosphatized steel.. and if I were the one making the decisions I would have changed all of those that could be made profitably, and for which there was sufficient demand, to stainless steel or copper instead. My own solution was to avoid those fixtures, but they continued to offer them.

If it sounds like I'm questioning some of Bill Locklin's decisions over the years, I must admit that I am. We may have had different opinions, but I still respected the man for listening to contractors, even if he didn't always change course.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-01-2009, 01:29 AM
Tim, I can assure you that the situation at Nightscaping is more complex than most would realize. It is not so much about products, methods and market share as it is about a transition of ownership, and relationships between owners and management.

Does Nightscaping have an overly large catalog, with many outdated products? Sure they do. That is no surprise to any of us. They also make some of the best, most innovative niche style fixtures on the market. Then throw in their ability and willingness to practice "Mass Customization" not to mention their commitment and loyalty to their contractor customer base, and you have a rather unique manufacturer. Trust me, I wouldnt use the products that I do unless they performed a task better than any other fixture on the market.

INTEGRALiter - Brass
Vermeer
Artisan - Copper or custom colour (and I do mean custom)
Copper Postliter
JEMLiter
Deliter- wedge base socket
ScottLiter - MI Version
Guardian - (find me a smaller scale, square, MR16 based, wall mount projection fixture)
MiniWashLiter
Constitution

That is my go to list for the most part... might not even be 10% of the catalog. Most of those on that short list have no equal in the market.... and I can have them customized to my specification at any time and have them here in hand, 4000 miles away in another Country, in 24 - 36 hours with no worries, no failure to deliver.

They sure as heck do a better job at making me and my clients happy than many of the larger manufacturers ever have or could ever only wish to. Do I expect that every designer or contractor out there will see things my way? Of course not, and that is just fine.

The loyal following that Nightscaping has assembled is legendary in this industry and it all comes back to a rather unique and remarkable mantra: "Friends doing business with friends". Call it outdated, call it hokey, call it what ever you want..... it works for me.

Have a great day.

MAGLIGHTING
03-01-2009, 09:30 AM
Almost 10 years ago, 3 loyal (and exclusive Nightscaping brand product users)contractors and myself rented a conference room in a hotel in Ontario California for 1 full day. There we spent the entire day pitching Bill Locklin and Seng Tee on the idea of creating a seperate transformer and 10 fixture or so line reserved for top line Nightscaping professionals only. To be developed by Nightscaping contractors and exclusively sold by 3-5 of their most loyal distributors over the years. NO DIY, factory direct or internet sales to ANYONE who wasn't part of this exclusive reserved group of loyal Nightscaping top contractors around the country. This was to be operated as a seperate division of their company.

This idea was not well received. In fact we all realized we were wasting our time when we took a break and in the restroom Locklin says- "Here comes the enemy" when we walked in after him. He couldn't have been more wrong. We were there because we wanted to work together with him and continue using his product line. This was a last ditch effort on our part because things had gotten so bad that it was no longer profittable or feasible to use the product line with the policies and practices of the company. I'm not going to go into detail here but let me just say this. Bill Locklin did have a love for the contractor. He just had no idea how to run a profittable business and got some very bad advice from those around him. He surrounded himself with yes men who told him what he wanted to hear not what was ultimately best for the company.

Nightscaping had a direct line to most of it's contractors and just never had a clue how to use it to the best advantage for the company.

After that meeting failed to bring a positive outcome I went from being a 100% loyal user of Nightscaping product to quickly phasing them out and within 1 year had helped develop a product line and transformer along with another ex Nightscaping contractor under his brand name.

This turned out to be the best decision I ever made in my life. Four years of using that product, building my business and my financial capability and I spun off into my own branded proprietary very small reserve of product which I use in my design build business everyday.

Before his death ,Every once in awhile I would get a phone call from Bill telling me that he always considered me a son asking to meet for lunch to discuss my coming back to the Nightscaping family. It was too late I had moved on and had hard feelings for him after he misrepresented the meeting we had and demonized myself and 3 other good contractors . He told his internet e-mail group that we wanted control of his company and we were only looking out for ourselves. I was personally named as the reason for Nightscaping's decision to discontinue their yearly award trip to the islands. Business was down and they could no longer afford it but instead of telling the truth they made me the scapegoat. There were other completely false and malicious misrepresentations but I'll keep it at that.

Let's just say that Nightscaping would have been better served over the years improving their products and bringing them into the 21st century instead of launching smear campaigns against competitors or those looking to develop and introduce new and innovative products to the industry.

I'm surprised at the abrubtness of the announcement not the financial trouble they are in. I was in their booth at the CLCA show in Los Angeles on Wednesday and there is no way that David or Rebecca who were tending the booth had any idea that one day later this public announcement would come. They were promoting the line and doing their job.

I have good memories too. I didn't wish this on them but I sure did see it coming. It takes a long time to turn a big ship around is what Nightscaping used to say. We'll see if they are able to leave port and sail another day.

irrig8r
03-01-2009, 01:19 PM
Almost 10 years ago, 3 loyal (and exclusive Nightscaping brand product users)contractors and myself rented a conference room in a hotel in Ontario California for 1 full day. There we spent the entire day pitching Bill Locklin and Seng Tee on the idea of creating a seperate transformer and 10 fixture or so line reserved for top line Nightscaping professionals only. To be developed by Nightscaping contractors and exclusively sold by 3-5 of their most loyal distributors over the years. NO DIY, factory direct or internet sales to ANYONE who wasn't part of this exclusive reserved group of loyal Nightscaping top contractors around the country. This was to be operated as a seperate division of their company.

This idea was not well received. In fact we all realized we were wasting our time when we took a break and in the restroom Locklin says- "Here comes the enemy" when we walked in after him. He couldn't have been more wrong. We were there because we wanted to work together with him and continue using his product line. This was a last ditch effort on our part because things had gotten so bad that it was no longer profittable or feasible to use the product line with the policies and practices of the company. I'm not going to go into detail here but let me just say this. Bill Locklin did have a love for the contractor. He just had no idea how to run a profittable business and got some very bad advice from those around him. He surrounded himself with yes men who told him what he wanted to hear not what was ultimately best for the company.

Nightscaping had a direct line to most of it's contractors and just never had a clue how to use it to the best advantage for the company.

After that meeting failed to bring a positive outcome I went from being a 100% loyal user of Nightscaping product to quickly phasing them out and within 1 year had helped develop a product line and transformer along with another ex Nightscaping contractor under his brand name.

This turned out to be the best decision I ever made in my life. Four years of using that product, building my business and my financial capability and I spun off into my own branded proprietary very small reserve of product which I use in my design build business everyday.

Before his death ,Every once in awhile I would get a phone call from Bill telling me that he always considered me a son asking to meet for lunch to discuss my coming back to the Nightscaping family. It was too late I had moved on and had hard feelings for him after he misrepresented the meeting we had and demonized myself and 3 other good contractors . He told his internet e-mail group that we wanted control of his company and we were only looking out for ourselves. I was personally named as the reason for Nightscaping's decision to discontinue their yearly award trip to the islands. Business was down and they could no longer afford it but instead of telling the truth they made me the scapegoat. There were other completely false and malicious misrepresentations but I'll keep it at that.

Let's just say that Nightscaping would have been better served over the years improving their products and bringing them into the 21st century instead of launching smear campaigns against competitors or those looking to develop and introduce new and innovative products to the industry.

I'm surprised at the abrubtness of the announcement not the financial trouble they are in. I was in their booth at the CLCA show in Los Angeles on Wednesday and there is no way that David or Rebecca who were tending the booth had any idea that one day later this public announcement would come. They were promoting the line and doing their job.

I have good memories too. I didn't wish this on them but I sure did see it coming. It takes a long time to turn a big ship around is what Nightscaping used to say. We'll see if they are able to leave port and sail another day.

Mike, though I don't agree with your approach with your proposal to Bill, which I've even heard some of your critics refer to as extortion, I know there are at least two sides to every story, and I appreciate your candor.

You say you were there at the LIS... I would have been if it wasn't for all the details I've been involved with here leading up to my Dad's memorial service next weekend.

I heard about the booth displaying LED fixtures... what did you see, and what did you think of them? Were they retrofits of existing fixtures, or something new?

Three years ago, I saw a new prototype using a GE LED light engine. Were these the result of those R and D efforts, or did they say anything about them?

Nothing was brought up on any of the Nightscaping email forums about these... so I was very surprised to hear about LED based fixtures being rolled out at the LIS.

MAGLIGHTING
03-01-2009, 01:34 PM
Mike, though I don't agree with your approach with your proposal to Bill, which I've even heard some of your critics refer to as extortion, I know there are at least two sides to every story, and I appreciate your candor. -Gregg

Extortion?:laugh: That's very funny Gregg.:hammerhead: The program would have been open to all those contractors who qualified. Qualification was predicated on using 100% Nightscaping product and maintaining a minimum purchasing level. The 4 contractors who brought the proposal stood to gain nothing more than any other participating contractor. And I mean absolutely nothing more.

You really shouldn't offer your skewed opinion and inflammatory words to a matter you have no facts about and had nothing to do with. Thanks for validating the fact that Locklin put his spin on the meeting in his e-mail chat group to save face after I left the building.

Do you really think I'm going to answer your questions after you've called me an extortionist? You are a really funny guy Gregg

irrig8r
03-01-2009, 02:28 PM
Mike, though I don't agree with your approach with your proposal to Bill, which I've even heard some of your critics refer to as extortion, I know there are at least two sides to every story, and I appreciate your candor. -Gregg

Extortion?:laugh: That's very funny Gregg.:hammerhead: The program would have been open to all those contractors who qualified. Qualification was predicated on using 100% Nightscaping product and maintaining a minimum purchasing level. The 4 contractors who brought the proposal stood to gain nothing more than any other participating contractor. And I mean absolutely nothing more.

You really shouldn't offer your skewed opinion and inflammatory words to a matter you have no facts about and had nothing to do with. Thanks for validating the fact that Locklin put his spin on the meeting in his e-mail chat group to save face after I left the building.

Do you really think I'm going to answer your questions after you've called me an extortionist? You are a really funny guy Gregg

Mike, read my words again.

I didn't express any bias. I made a point to say there are at least two sides to every story. I didn't "call you" anything... I don't have a "skewed opinion"... in fact I don't even have an opinion about it at all.

I obviously wasn't at your meeting so I only got the story secondhand at best... and I've never heard your side until now.

You brought up the story, all I was doing was relating another participant's take as told to me some years back.

Water way under the bridge and into the sea...

MAGLIGHTING
03-01-2009, 02:48 PM
Mike, read my words again.

I didn't express any bias. I made a point to say there are at least two sides to every story. I didn't "call you" anything... I don't have a "skewed opinion"... in fact I don't even have an opinion about it at all.

I obviously wasn't at your meeting so I only got the story secondhand at best... and I've never heard your side until now.

You brought up the story, all I was doing was relating another participant's take as told to me some years back.

Water way under the bridge and into the sea...

I didn't express any bias. I made a point to say there are at least two sides to every story. I didn't "call you" anything... I don't have a "skewed opinion"... in fact I don't even have an opinion about it at all.

Then why would you even make any comment at all if you have no opinion and leave it at that instead of saying I was called an extortionist? I've never heard that any time or anywhere so why don't you tell me who used that word? There were only 6 people at that meeting. Tell me it was 1 or more of the other 5 attendees and I'll say that's fine that is their opinion and they are entitled to it. Otherwise that person has no right making such a false and degrading statement.

I obviously wasn't at your meeting so I only got the story secondhand at best... and I've never heard your side until now.

And you know that's not true. We had a private e-mail exchange about this probably 6 months ago where I told you my side of the story.

I state my side publicly for the first time here and appreciate the lawnsite forum for giving me the ability to do so.

Bill had to come up with some reason why a high profile contractor would go from wildly praising the company and being loyal with 100% exclusivity for so long to no longer using the product within 1 year. He did what he felt he had to do unfortunately and unfairly throwing me under the bus.

I also want to add that I couldn't even count how many there were who had an opinion on how Nightscaping should direct their efforts who had no right to do so as they were not product loyal and or bought so little product that their purchases were irrelevant. These are probably the so called critics you speak of. Critics because they would have been excluded from the plan that we had proposed due to non qualification. This didn't mean that they would have not been able to use any of the products that they were currently using from Nightscaping. Anger and resentment that they could not have access to elite status based upon their own merit or lack there of.

irrig8r
03-01-2009, 03:52 PM
Like I said Mike... water under the bridge... and as you said, I wasn't there...

irrig8r
03-01-2009, 05:15 PM
My previous post might have been read as kind of a cop-out... so....



And you know that's not true. We had a private e-mail exchange about this probably 6 months ago where I told you my side of the story.


Must be the ravages of middle age... I don't recall details... I do recall upsetting a couple of people at Nightscaping when they found out I had informed you of Bill's failing health in the interest of burying any hatchets while you still had a chance... which was longer ago than that...


Bill had to come up with some reason why a high profile contractor would go from wildly praising the company and being loyal with 100% exclusivity for so long to no longer using the product within 1 year. He did what he felt he had to do unfortunately and unfairly throwing me under the bus.


I do seem to remember you (figuratively) kissing the ground Bill walked on once upon a time... and then I can't remember how you disappeared from Nightchat... but it seemed kind of sudden at the time.



I also want to add that I couldn't even count how many there were who had an opinion on how Nightscaping should direct their efforts who had no right to do so as they were not product loyal and or bought so little product that their purchases were irrelevant. These are probably the so called critics you speak of. Critics because they would have been excluded from the plan that we had proposed due to non qualification.



Could be.... but it's really kind of irrelevant now.


Anyway, Nightscaping might just pull itself together with the right combination of vision, focus and funding, and maybe even reinvent itself as the new industry leader... time will tell.

Stranger things have happened.

MAGLIGHTING
03-01-2009, 07:20 PM
Gregg go back to fantasy land . I'm not going to waste anymore time on your nonsense. :confused: Extortion , In your dreams ;)

irrig8r
03-01-2009, 08:22 PM
Moving on....

About those Nightscaping LED-lamped fixtures... has anyone else seen them and if so, do you have any initial impressions?

Do they appear to be retro-fitting old fixtures or are they new fixture designs?

The one prototype I saw three years ago was essentially a sheet brass pyramid on a tubular brass stem, and there would have been both glare and sprinkler/ weather exposure issues with it's design...

I think the idea was still rough, but it was a warm white and plenty bright.
As I recall, research was being done with GE lamps.

More recently, maybe a year or more ago, I saw what looked like a promising product by GE called the Vio, and I posted some links to it here.

Yet more recently, I heard that GE was going to divest itself of their consumer lighting division... so I have no idea what that means in relation to the future of their LED business.

What looked different about their product line compared to others I looked at was that they used a plug in connector (no soldering required) and a square PC board that it was mounted on.

http://www.lumination.com/product.php?id=56

http://www.lumination.com/literature/Vio_DataSheet_WEB_122308.pdf

dglights
03-01-2009, 09:32 PM
Most fixtures are round and symmetric. The Vio's square board and offset connector unnecessarily increases the size and cost of the fixture. It also requires additional features to hold the optic(s) in place again increasing cost.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-01-2009, 11:01 PM
Sherman, your points on the format of the GE VIO LED Platform are probably correct, however, you would have to admit that the light output of the VIO is spectacular.

I have not seen what Nightscaping was developing in terms of LED based fixtures, but knowing the line as well as I do, I would think the GE VIO would fit perfectly into a majority of the fixtures without much trouble. I also know that Nightscaping has had a long and loyal relationship with GE.

Hopefully we will get to see them!

Have a great day.

MAGLIGHTING
03-01-2009, 11:20 PM
James you have been working with LED's for awhile now. Why didn't Nightscaping consult during development and before their introduction?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-01-2009, 11:41 PM
Your guess is as good as mine Mike. I have tried over the past couple of years to work closely with Nightscaping, together, to come up with viable LED based fixtures. I cannot count how many times I offered support, information, and showed a willingness to participate. There have been a lot of hurdles there over the past year or two, what with Bill's illness, his passing, the change in ownership, etc. Who really knows?

Perhaps my determination to introduce, develop and rely upon LED Lamp technology rather than purpose built LED fixtures was a stumbling block for them?

MAGLIGHTING
03-02-2009, 12:27 AM
Your guess is as good as mine Mike. I have tried over the past couple of years to work closely with Nightscaping, together, to come up with viable LED based fixtures. I cannot count how many times I offered support, information, and showed a willingness to participate. There have been a lot of hurdles there over the past year or two, what with Bill's illness, his passing, the change in ownership, etc. Who really knows?

Perhaps my determination to introduce, develop and rely upon LED Lamp technology rather than purpose built LED fixtures was a stumbling block for them?

Your story sounds very similar to mine. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot always make them drink.

dglights
03-02-2009, 01:31 PM
James, a spectacular LED light source does not always equal spectacular light output once installed in the fixture (especially a fixture not designed for LED). If your going to use LED in your product line it's best to use the same LED for all of your fixtures not just the majority. It is a real headache if your using different LEDs from different suppliers.
Using the same LED across the entire line ensures consistency in color and output for all the fixtures.

irrig8r
03-02-2009, 02:31 PM
Sherman, what became of the LED FIT KIT retrofit that Billy posted a photo of a while back? Looked you had a website reserved for it, but it doesn't seem to work anymore... it just reroutes users to your main site.

Did you change direction?

MAGLIGHTING
03-02-2009, 07:52 PM
Perhaps my determination to introduce, develop and rely upon LED Lamp technology rather than purpose built LED fixtures was a stumbling block for them?[/QUOTE]

I'm not positive because I didn't look too close but I think that Nightscaping was displaying LED lamps in their standard socket fixtures with drivers built into the lamp and not the fixture itself.

They had an enclosed wooden box to look into and push buttons to demo LED versions of MR, wedge, bayonet etc. to compare to the incandescant and halogen counterparts.

I heard today that David and Rebecca got a call during the show thursday telling them they were being let go. They spent the rest of the show trying to make contacts that might lead to other employment. Crazy times we are in right now.

dglights
03-02-2009, 10:01 PM
Greg, the fitkits are still available.

I'm not onboard with the LED MR16 replacements though. The bi-pin socket provides no benefit to the LED and just limits its full potential. The electronics heat the LED and the LED heats the electronics, the cooling fins do little once installed inside a sealed fixture, the warranty and light output isn't that great, etc... In the short run they'll help people save energy and I don't have any issues with that.
In my opinion for the future we need LED specific fixtures, designed for landscape lighting, made in the USA

MAGLIGHTING
03-02-2009, 10:11 PM
Too bad a beautiful thread about Loran Nightscaping has been hijacked.

David Gretzmier
03-02-2009, 10:45 PM
Yeah, wonder how that happened? could it be two guys argueing about a meeting way back when?

I'm sad now I brought up thier product line. firefly agreed, and made an excellent comment about possible retooling, as other business have done, to address the current needs of the installer. but then this thing went haywire.

I agree with James that they did make some niche products that, in the right place were the best fixture for that app. The problem is that they are not huge sellers. And this business failure may have nothing to do with product or sales, but operations.

dglights
03-03-2009, 12:02 AM
It wasn't my intention to hi-jack this thread. I was shocked at the news of Nightscaping and began following the thread. Leds came up. Occasionally I provide my opinion on this forum based on my experience with LED technology. Maybe some readers want to know why I think the Vio is impractical or why I don't think LED mr16s are a good solution . . . maybe not.

Mr. Locklin is an inspiration to me and I wish Nightscaping good luck.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-03-2009, 12:19 AM
Nor am I trying to hijack the thread, but I have to say... Sherman, not all LED MR16 lamps are created equal. For fixtures designed to accept MR16 lamps, they work very well. As will my new Bi-Pin LED in fixtures designed to accept G4 Bi-Pin Xenon lamps.

It is now possible and practical to create LED lamps that are properly designed and engineered for the application at hand.

Perhaps we should move our discourse on this topic to another thread.

Regards.

MAGLIGHTING
03-03-2009, 12:32 AM
Much Felonious activity occuring in this forum lately with all the alleged hijacking and extorsion going on.

irrig8r
03-03-2009, 10:13 AM
Perhaps it was my unintentionally inflammatory use of the "e" word that got us off track.

Maybe I shouldn't be relating what I heard second- or third-hand... after all, I wasn't presenting my opinion or facts that I knew firsthand, so in the "court of public opinion", it should probably be ruled as hearsay and thrown out.

However, at this point, it's all irrelevant. What Nightscaping "could have done" or "should have done" 10 years ago doesn't really matter.

What they do RIGHT NOW is what determines their future.

JoeyD
03-03-2009, 10:16 AM
So did they just send employees home or are they officially let go??

Tomwilllight
03-04-2009, 10:41 AM
Hijacking or not, this thread reads much like conversation at a wake...

Given that many of the participants are in mourning, it seems to me to be what's needed.

Tom

MAGLIGHTING
03-04-2009, 03:55 PM
Hijacking or not, this thread reads much like conversation at a wake...

Given that many of the participants are in mourning, it seems to me to be what's needed.

Tom


I'm not in mourning but I can honestly say I'm sad to hear of their troubles. Call it sentimental value or whatever there's nothing to be happy about over this situation.

I personally know one really good person who is now out of a job as a result.

Whatever did happen or didn't happen, what they did do, didn't do is all in the past.

They obviously had a small loyal following so to them they were doing right.

Sometimes with the competitive nature of this business in particular we tend to forget that the company is made up of real people with families.

They also did have a place in the industry and that should not be forgotten.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-04-2009, 05:22 PM
Hey don't mourn over an empty grave.

There are things in the works as we speak.

Who knows, perhaps if all goes well, and we hope it will, the company will be re-branded Phoenix Lighting! :) (at lease there should be a new fixture out of it... the PhoenixLiter.)

MAGLIGHTING
03-04-2009, 06:05 PM
Hey don't mourn over an empty grave.

There are things in the works as we speak.

Who knows, perhaps if all goes well, and we hope it will, the company will be re-branded Phoenix Lighting! :) (at lease there should be a new fixture out of it... the PhoenixLiter.)

The Phoenix did rise from the ashes.

Pro-Scapes
03-04-2009, 07:59 PM
Does anyone have any updates ? I have an order for ace connectors which are supposed to be drop shipped to me. I have been charged but so far no connectors.

MAGLIGHTING
03-04-2009, 08:27 PM
Does anyone have any updates ? I have an order for ace connectors which are supposed to be drop shipped to me. I have been charged but so far no connectors.

Billy , I can help you out if you get left in the lurch. I've got 4,500 large brass barrel and about 5,000 medium ace's in my private reserve.

irrig8r
03-04-2009, 10:23 PM
Does anyone have any updates ? I have an order for ace connectors which are supposed to be drop shipped to me. I have been charged but so far no connectors.

My rep Steve A. said he heard the factory shipped some orders on Monday. Maybe have Ashley call Connie and ask if yours shipped yet?

Stuttering Stan
03-06-2009, 10:18 PM
Any new events in the Nightscaping saga?

Pro-Scapes
03-07-2009, 09:41 AM
I got one box of mediums in when I ordered 3. Got a box of quarter aces but someone obviously forgot the shrink boots so I have 50 barrels with no boots. :cry:

irrig8r
03-07-2009, 11:34 AM
Think maybe I'll go clean out my distributor's stock while I can...

Pro-Scapes
03-08-2009, 01:32 PM
I just need to make sure I get a refund for them if I am not going to be getting them.

irrig8r
03-08-2009, 01:52 PM
Billy, I'm thinking maybe they have less experienced people covering the shipping operations while they sort things out.

Sometimes my Aces have arrived with the sleeves over the barrels in one bulging box, other times the sleeves are in a separate box. I think the second way was from newer stock, but I'm not sure.

I'm hoping we see some decisive action about the future of the company ths week and with it, the resumption of orders flowing.

MAGLIGHTING
03-08-2009, 03:10 PM
I just need to make sure I get a refund for them if I am not going to be getting them.

Call the distributor you bought them from tommorow and have them get the answers for you as to what is up with your order.

Unless the company is infused with new money from a buyer or investor soon it doesn't look good.

Their shutdown of factory and let go of employees sure isn't a good sign and doesn't exactly instill any confidence in the short or long term viability of the company

We'll have to see.

Pro-Scapes
03-08-2009, 08:39 PM
I agree Mike. I would definitely have a hard time specing materials on a job when a company is shakey like this. Makes me wonder if there will be any warranty help in the future.

I know some of you have hundreds or even thousands of ns power centers out there.

David Gretzmier
03-09-2009, 03:01 PM
I've got more than a few NS trans out there, but honestly, over the years as folks have hired me to add a few fixtures here and there I've been replacing those with a FX trans that has multi taps and holds a load. I'm sure many have been doing the same.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-09-2009, 03:20 PM
No need to replace that which works just fine David. I have never had any issues with the H3O (Multitap) line of Nightscaping Powercenters. Much like the energizer bunny... they just keep going and going and going.

In 11 years, I have only sent two Powercenters back, both of which sustained lightning strikes, and both were covered 100% under warranty (even thought they didn't have to do this under the circumstances!)

Friends doing business with friends... amazing what a strong relationship will afford you.

David Gretzmier
03-09-2009, 08:33 PM
I've replaced a dozen nightscaping trans or so in the past 10 years with FX because that is what works better for me. The powercenters I replaced were all the older slide switch models that made you choose between high medium or low voltage going out of a 250 watt lug. Ewing Irrigation supply quit carrying nightscaping in my area about 5 years ago because of the returns.

Yes they are guaranteed for life, yes they stand behind thier product, but when I go to add a light, and I've got 60 watts on a 80 foot 12 guage run, and the voltage drops below 10.5 on high, I'm not too keen on running another 12 guage run for one or two lights just because the trans can't hold a load. That's the whole point of me underloading runs in the first place. After this happened on several occaisions, I would just try to replace the trans with FX. since I had no nightscaping source, I did no know they had a multi tap line.

irrig8r
03-09-2009, 11:24 PM
I've replaced a dozen nightscaping trans or so in the past 10 years with FX because that is what works better for me. The powercenters I replaced were all the older slide switch models that made you choose between high medium or low voltage going out of a 250 watt lug. Ewing Irrigation supply quit carrying nightscaping in my area about 5 years ago because of the returns.

Yes they are guaranteed for life, yes they stand behind thier product, but when I go to add a light, and I've got 60 watts on a 80 foot 12 guage run, and the voltage drops below 10.5 on high, I'm not too keen on running another 12 guage run for one or two lights just because the trans can't hold a load. That's the whole point of me underloading runs in the first place. After this happened on several occaisions, I would just try to replace the trans with FX. since I had no nightscaping source, I did no know they had a multi tap line.

I don't know why you'd replace a TF with a lifetime warranty with one with a 10 yr. warranty. I probably would just have added one if I'd had the space and wanted to expand a system running at capacity.

My only beef with FX is that they (with Ewing) have offered so many free seminars and the stuff is so easily available off the shelf that there are a lot more marginally skilled people out there installing them badly.

Customer of mine had one 500W and another 250 Powercenters and the system was working great and had room for expansion.

Dumbass landscape designer and crew come in, install new plantings and multiple FX uplights with new cables 3" deep (or less!) and changed out the 2 Powercenters for one FX 600W PX.

Client says he'll stick with me for his future lighting, but the designer offered him a very good price and he couldn't pass it up.

TXNSLighting
03-09-2009, 11:57 PM
Dang landscapers...they dont care as long as they get the money...

NightScenes
03-10-2009, 04:27 PM
I don't know why you'd replace a TF with a lifetime warranty with one with a 10 yr. warranty. I probably would just have added one if I'd had the space and wanted to expand a system running at capacity.

My only beef with FX is that they (with Ewing) have offered so many free seminars and the stuff is so easily available off the shelf that there are a lot more marginally skilled people out there installing them badly.

Customer of mine had one 500W and another 250 Powercenters and the system was working great and had room for expansion.

Dumbass landscape designer and crew come in, install new plantings and multiple FX uplights with new cables 3" deep (or less!) and changed out the 2 Powercenters for one FX 600W PX.

Client says he'll stick with me for his future lighting, but the designer offered him a very good price and he couldn't pass it up.

I have also sat in on some of these so called lighting classes only to walk out shaking my head in complete disbelief in what they are teaching.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-10-2009, 08:27 PM
Back to the topic of this thread... NIGHTSCAPING.

Here is a copy of a memo sent out yesterday:

Memo to: All Supporters of NIGHTSCAPING

From: LaVesta Locklin, Owner, NIGHTSCAPING

I want to update everyone on the progress we are making with the business. I concentrated on Investors last week, and I am also visiting with companies interested in purchase or partnership.
I want to keep the business intact in its present location, as any moving of it would definitely take too much time to get it back up and functional. Most are interested because of the name and the success of the company. There are a number of companies interested and coming to visit with a tour of the plant. Two of our company salesmen will be here to help answer their questions re: our business, and give them information about our fixtures and our sales. With a sale I will attempt to work out a plan during escrow to bring back our employees, and start production again to fill the orders we are accumulating each day.

The office is open to accept orders . Much thanks go to all of you supporters who have continued to work and support Nightscaping. This crisis will be resolved and Nightscaping will shine again!

MAGLIGHTING
03-10-2009, 08:54 PM
double post- see below

MAGLIGHTING
03-10-2009, 08:54 PM
Back to the topic of this thread... NIGHTSCAPING.

Here is a copy of a memo sent out yesterday:

Memo to: All Supporters of NIGHTSCAPING

From: LaVesta Locklin, Owner, NIGHTSCAPING

I want to update everyone on the progress we are making with the business. I concentrated on Investors last week, and I am also visiting with companies interested in purchase or partnership.
I want to keep the business intact in its present location, as any moving of it would definitely take too much time to get it back up and functional. Most are interested because of the name and the success of the company. There are a number of companies interested and coming to visit with a tour of the plant. Two of our company salesmen will be here to help answer their questions re: our business, and give them information about our fixtures and our sales. With a sale I will attempt to work out a plan during escrow to bring back our employees, and start production again to fill the orders we are accumulating each day.

The office is open to accept orders . Much thanks go to all of you supporters who have continued to work and support Nightscaping. This crisis will be resolved and Nightscaping will shine again!

This really has me baffled. Why would this information be made public like this. (I don't mean James' posting of it here but the information itself being made public via e-mail by Mrs. Locklin herself). Shouldn't have these things been resolved , like trying to find a partner, new owner, investor before closing down shop and before running out of operating funds?
It's also kind of sad when she says "Most are interested because of the name and the success of the company." Well then how did the company get into this jam then?

I don't know, I wish them the best but I've never seen anything like this before where a company publicizes private business affairs like this.

I guess it's just a sign of the times with reality tv programming and all. :confused:

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-10-2009, 09:48 PM
It is a really complex issue that has been handled poorly from the day after Bill passed away right up until this very day. I will make no apologies for that. All we can do is work with the powers that be and play the game that way.

You know, this recent turn of events, and how things have been handled surrounding them, is not all that much unlike how Bill ran things. Quirky is the probably the best way to put it. No one will ever be able to say that LaVesta is the most savvy of business leaders, but who knows, we just might find she has a card or two up her sleeve yet.

Regards.

David Gretzmier
03-10-2009, 10:04 PM
I went from a nightscaping powercenter, lifetime warranty, that would not hold a load as per charts to an FX trans with a 10 year warranty with multi-taps that would and further, exceed them. it was an easy call. I have no dealer avaiable or experience with the NS multi-tap trans. perhaps that are great. If nightscaping rises from the ashes on this, I am not opposed to trying them, but I have no warranty center locally.

MAGLIGHTING
03-10-2009, 10:04 PM
It's just really sad and so not the way it should be. It's been said over and over again. Nightscaping had it all right from the beginning and just out of stubborness , inability to cope with reality and adapt, the company has come to this. The damage done by competitors cannot compare with the damage they did to themselves from within the organization by their own poor management and decision making. Maybe it was their destiny. :confused:

I really cannot say I'm surprised. In fact I new it for years that once Bill passed away the company would be in deep trouble.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-10-2009, 10:18 PM
Hey Mike...perhaps this is your golden opportunity?!? With a bit of luck, a decent offer, and some magic.... you could submit an offer and end up owning Nightscaping! :)

Stranger things have happened.

MAGLIGHTING
03-10-2009, 10:22 PM
Hey Mike...perhaps this is your golden opportunity?!? With a bit of luck, a decent offer, and some magic.... you could submit an offer and end up owning Nightscaping! :)

Stranger things have happened.

James we'll go partners and that will really set the industry on it's ear :canadaflag: :usflag:. I'm a liter not a manufacturer. Always have been always will be. A Man must know his limitations.

David Gretzmier
03-11-2009, 10:31 AM
I don't know Mike- Don't you still install your own fixtures you spec from start to finish? along with your own transformers? You may be a liter, but I don't know of any other liter that is more involved with the design and manufacture of thier own lights and trans. At 5000 plus fixtures per year, you already are a small scale manufaturor on your own.

ccfree
03-11-2009, 11:40 AM
I have also sat in on some of these so called lighting classes only to walk out shaking my head in complete disbelief in what they are teaching.

Maybe you are to advanced for the class you sat in on. Manufacturers teach things differently but its all for the same cause.

MAGLIGHTING
03-11-2009, 08:17 PM
I don't know Mike- Don't you still install your own fixtures you spec from start to finish? along with your own transformers? You may be a liter, but I don't know of any other liter that is more involved with the design and manufacture of thier own lights and trans. At 5000 plus fixtures per year, you already are a small scale manufaturor on your own.

Depends upon your definition of a manufacturer I guess. OEM maybe however I am a liter threw and threw as I am still on the jobsite six days a week designing and installing although I now have helpers to assist me.

irrig8r
03-12-2009, 11:08 AM
How many founders of lighting manufacturers are former (or even current) contractors?

Bill Locklin maintained his electrical contractor license until the end...

We all know Nate Mullen's story...

Dan Cuńado of Vista was apparently a contractor producing fixtures in his garage in the 80's....

All these guys, just like you Mike, saw ways to do things better... and capitalized on their ideas...

Who can name more?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-13-2009, 10:58 PM
Well, seems that a there may be a light at the end of the tunnel yet.

Here is a memo received from Nightscaping earlier this evening... ( I am not too worried about posting this stuff here as these memos are being sent out to the entire email address book at the home office... essentially being published as public information given the scope of that list.)

MEMO to ALL OF OUR LOYAL NIGHTSCAPING SUPPORTERS:

NIGHTSCAPING IS NOW OPERATING ON A SMALL SCALE, AND WE ARE TAKING ORDERS AND SHIPPING. We have never stopped taking orders, and they are looking very good at this time. Now that we are into the warm season, despite the economy, we are getting those long awaited orders. If you need special consideration on your orders, please call Connie and she will take care of your needs.

These committed employees are giving it their very best along with their loyal hearts, and that is what is putting life back into our company. We have not sold, but will be talking to those investors who wish to buy a portion of Nightscaping. That may help boost us a little more, but we are still very much alive here in Redlands, California. Keep those orders coming. The salesmen out there are still working, and I will be talking to each of them today, to work out details with them. NIGHTSCAPING IS SHINING AGAIN!!!

Pro-Scapes
03-16-2009, 07:57 PM
If they are operational maybe I will get that order charged to me last month. :laugh:

James. before you do... dont worry about calling to check on it :) we called the dist today

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-16-2009, 11:06 PM
Believe it or not Billy, I am not on the NS payroll. :laugh:

Pro-Scapes
03-16-2009, 11:13 PM
I just ordered a case of 200 from Mike G so I will be back in action soon enough. While cleaning the shop today I found 2 more boxes I tossed on a shelf.

What would you do without your beloved H30 boxes James ?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-16-2009, 11:33 PM
Well, if in fact that becomes an issue, I will have to find a suitable alternative. I know of a couple of sources for quality transformers, so It won't mean the end of the world or anything.

Sometimes you just have to roll with the punches.

Pro-Scapes
03-20-2009, 01:28 PM
34 days post order... ace connectors show up :laugh::laugh: with these and case I ordered from Mike G it looks like I will be set for about the next 3 mo.

Pro-Scapes
03-20-2009, 06:28 PM
:dizzy:34 days post order... ace connectors show up :laugh::laugh: with these and case I ordered from Mike G it looks like I will be set for about the next 3 mo.

Also just opened one of the quarter aces. Greg... you must be right. I think there are some inexperienced people packing things.

Barrels tossed in the box no bag... boots bagged... 53 barrels.. 48 boots... 50 allen wrenches lol.

For thoes who dont know. It would normally be 50 barrels and 50 boots in the same bag and 1 allen wrench.:dizzy::confused:

MAGLIGHTING
03-20-2009, 08:25 PM
:dizzy:

Also just opened one of the quarter aces. Greg... you must be right. I think there are some inexperienced people packing things.

Barrels tossed in the box no bag... boots bagged... 53 barrels.. 48 boots... 50 allen wrenches lol.

For thoes who dont know. It would normally be 50 barrels and 50 boots in the same bag and 1 allen wrench.:dizzy::confused:

:dizzy:Uh oh, If you are looking for presentation then wait till you get the box I sent you. It isn't pretty but at least all the parts are there in correct qty.:dizzy:

Pro-Scapes
03-20-2009, 10:12 PM
:dizzy:Uh oh, If you are looking for presentation then wait till you get the box I sent you. It isn't pretty but at least all the parts are there in correct qty.:dizzy:

Im not looking for how its packaged. Just found it somewhat amusing to open it to find a allen for each barrel in the box. I just dump them into a tray to carry around the jobsites anyways.

I also am counting on the package I ordered from you to not take over a month to reach me

MAGLIGHTING
03-20-2009, 10:58 PM
Im not looking for how its packaged. Just found it somewhat amusing to open it to find a allen for each barrel in the box. I just dump them into a tray to carry around the jobsites anyways.

I also am counting on the package I ordered from you to not take over a month to reach me

That's out of my control now. UPS picket up the boxes on wednesday

irrig8r
03-21-2009, 12:03 AM
If Nightscaping doesn't make it, where will you get your Aces guys?

I know where I can get the 3M tubing in carton quantities, but does anyone have a lead on the brass barrels?

I found a source for the same aluminum lugs that Paige packs in their splice kit, (and larger diam. ones.) I don't like their shrink tube (or their mark-up), so I figure with the same grade of 3M tubing NS uses, and the IHI lugs that Paige uses, maybe I've got the best of both worlds.

Let There Be Light
03-21-2009, 12:23 PM
Hi Guys,

I'm new here and happy to have found this site. Regarding Ace Connectors, A friend of mine has a machine shop, he makes "widgets" and is pricing these out for me. I also have another machine shop pricing for me for comparison purposes. I'll let you know what I come up with. I just received my last Nightscaping order and am now looking elsewhere as I personally believe they're not going to make it. My rep here in AZ is off the books and looking for another gig. If they lose all their sales people across the country, they might as well lock the door. Unfortunate turn of events.

Glad to be here :)

Steve

Pro-Scapes
03-21-2009, 09:40 PM
Greg,

Mike has his own version of the ace connectors. I just ordered a pile of em so I will let you guys know how the work out. Im not real worried about if I can get them or not. I can always go back to soldering every splice I make. Aces are no faster and might actually be more time consuming for me not to mention more expensive.

It is not just the barrels that need to be considered. You need someone to cut down the shrink boot in a uniform manner unless it can be ordered pre cut which I am sure it can for the right quantity and price. Then you need someone to count out everything and package it all up. Maybe it would be better if they came by the pound ?

irrig8r
03-21-2009, 10:32 PM
Greg,

Mike has his own version of the ace connectors. I just ordered a pile of em so I will let you guys know how the work out. Im not real worried about if I can get them or not. I can always go back to soldering every splice I make. Aces are no faster and might actually be more time consuming for me not to mention more expensive.

It is not just the barrels that need to be considered. You need someone to cut down the shrink boot in a uniform manner unless it can be ordered pre cut which I am sure it can for the right quantity and price. Then you need someone to count out everything and package it all up. Maybe it would be better if they came by the pound ?

I figured I could get my girlfriend's kid to do that and pay him for piece work. 48" sticks @ 3" each piece is 16 pieces per stick. 12 sticks per carton makes 192 pieces per carton.

Mr. Quik electric
03-21-2009, 10:32 PM
Hey Mike, can you PM on the price of your connectors? I would like to pick some up if you have some available to sell.

Thanks a bunch.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-22-2009, 08:32 AM
I figured I could get my girlfriend's kid to do that and pay him for piece work. 48" sticks @ 3" each piece is 16 pieces per stick. 12 sticks per carton makes 192 pieces per carton.

Hey Gregg... the more I think about this, the more I think you should talk with the young man and encourage him to run with this idea.

Make it more attractive than simply something to do in front of the TV. Encourage him to open a real business, assembling these connectors and marketing them. You already have all the information and networks he needs to get going. It would be a really low overhead startup for him, and he could learn a awful lot by doing this, not to mention make some good dough.

It is a near perfect business startup model for a young man. Easy product, strong but manageable demand, established network of customers.... Who knows, in a year or so he might be in a position to provide a job or two for a friend!

Git er' done!

MAGLIGHTING
03-22-2009, 10:03 AM
Hey Gregg... the more I think about this, the more I think you should talk with the young man and encourage him to run with this idea.

Make it more attractive than simply something to do in front of the TV. Encourage him to open a real business, assembling these connectors and marketing them. You already have all the information and networks he needs to get going. It would be a really low overhead startup for him, and he could learn a awful lot by doing this, not to mention make some good dough.

It is a near perfect business startup model for a young man. Easy product, strong but manageable demand, established network of customers.... Who knows, in a year or so he might be in a position to provide a job or two for a friend!

Git er' done!

:laugh::laugh::laugh:
Sometimes you guys are funny. Profit from Ace connectors is so rediculously low that you will go broke if it were your sole source of income. If you notice Nightscaping really has no competitors when it comes to that pc. That's because they sell it so cheap.

Literally , I made pennies supplying the few pcs I sent to Billy. I did it more to help him out because he was short.

I'd also like to clear up another misconception while I'm at it. What I do , I do not do for cost savings or economy. I could go out into the marketplace and save myself a bunch of money by buying off the shelf product.

I do it because the product is my design, has my name on it, it is different than commercially available and the quality is very high which I have complete control over. I certainly have no financial edge over my competition when it comes to purchasing materials. In fact I've got between 100-200K of product that has been paid for before being sold in stock at any given time.

Tell me how many distributors there are out there besides CLL FOLD , maybe Terradeck and a few others that have that kind of investment?

I also do what I do for 1 very important reason and I want you to understand this so I'm going to make it clear.

I have insulated myself from all of the liars, sleezebags and miscreants who will promise you that they are selling to you at the best price only to find out that they are selling the same product to your competitior who buys less for lower or even worse direct to your customer for the same or close to the price you are buying for. You will also not find it on the internet anywhere with a discount price tag attached to it.

That to me has been a cornerstone to my success in this business.

While a bunch of you other guys are selling commodities easily procured from the internet I am selling very limited available high quality product that is similar but distinctively different than anything else out there.

David Gretzmier
03-22-2009, 11:21 AM
Having looked at photo's ( but not in person) of Mike's lights I can wholeheartedly agree with the above. They are truly hardcore lights that no one else has. I can relate, I had some custom wreaths made last year for my Christmas Light side that no one else had, period. they were simply the best. My investment was closer to 40k for a container load, so Mike G definetely has deeper pockets, but the result is the same- it seperates you from your competition.

It seems the nighttime Demo also takes away some of the focus on the product, and back at the effect. while I spend the next five years saving my pennies to get custom landscape lights built, I use the best I can find and try to put the focus on my work product. It's true, I've had customers print out and show me the light or trans I use that they found on ebay. It hurts, but you can't stop it.

Since the only thing that seperates me from my competition and customer DIY is the effect that I can provide, I will use the demo until I have enough jobs out there and my reputation is such that I no longer need it.

Since this thread is about nightscaping, all you have to do is search on ebay for nightscaping and you'll find dozens of products at a price below most of us would have paid at a distributor.

But it seems a shame that a simple product like an ace connector and heat shrink tubing cannot be made in quantity and sold at a good profit.

irrig8r
03-22-2009, 12:50 PM
Mike, are your connectors UL rated?

I know that the aluminum lugs that I get from IHI are, that aluminum conducts better than brass, (less resistance = less heat) and that I can get them in an assortment of sizes. (And in a sealed connector, aluminum won't corrode.)

Even with the premium adhesive lined 3M tubing that Nightscaping uses, I can beat the cost I pay for Ace connectors by about 1.00 per pair (depending on lug size... actually a bit more on the larger equiv. of a Dual Ace) not including the time to cut, sort and pack...

irrig8r
03-22-2009, 12:58 PM
While a bunch of you other guys are selling commodities easily procured from the internet I am selling very limited available high quality product that is similar but distinctively different than anything else out there.

I wish you nothing but continued success. You have found a business model that works particularly well with your artistic temperament and your desire to stand out above the fray.

And if it insulates you more from the recession that a few of use are feeling, then more power to you.

irrig8r
03-25-2009, 09:05 PM
Not sure yet whether this is the best turn of events. I can think of other scenarios I might have preferred. Sounds like they might be seeking new sales reps if anyone is looking for a job. Not sure yet what it means for warranty coverage either, but time will tell.

Received from LaVesta Locklin today:


To All of our Friends of Nightscaping®,

Thank you for your patience during the past three weeks. I know this has not been an easy time for you. We understand your concerns for your own businesses, and we appreciate your loyal support for the Nightscaping® that Bill Locklin worked so hard to establish over the past 50 years. We all want Bill's legacy to live on.

At Nightscaping we considered several options for how we would be able to continue to serve the needs of the many outdoor lighting professionals across the country. A decision has been made, and we are acquiring sufficient funding that will allow us to once again become self- sufficient. So, the good news is NIGHTSCAPING® WILL BE OPEN TO FULL PRODUCTION AND SHIPPING on Monday, 3-30-09.

New management will be in place on Monday, and our search for additional qualified staff will commence at that time. An official announcement will be made in the near future.

Nightscaping® will continue to provide you with the finest value in low voltage outdoor lighting. Quality products, Excellent customer service, and as Bill always said, “Friends Doing Business with Friends.”

Pro-Scapes
03-25-2009, 11:41 PM
Having looked at photo's ( but not in person) of Mike's lights I can wholeheartedly agree with the above. They are truly hardcore lights that no one else has. .


I wouldnt say no one else has em. Several of my clients are sporting some Gambinos nightly.

On the Ace connectors. By the time you ship them from the manu then ship them to a dist then ship them to the contractor I think UPS is making more profit than anyone is on them. Labor intensive to count them out.. package them up...etc. One of my best clients asked me what thoes little things cost and he was floored when I told him what they cost.

Mikes connectors look good. Price is similar to an ACE but no hassels getting stock quanties and they took me only 5 days to get vs 4.5 weeks.

MAGLIGHTING
03-25-2009, 11:54 PM
I wouldnt say no one else has em. Several of my clients are sporting some Gambinos nightly.

On the Ace connectors. By the time you ship them from the manu then ship them to a dist then ship them to the contractor I think UPS is making more profit than anyone is on them. Labor intensive to count them out.. package them up...etc. One of my best clients asked me what thoes little things cost and he was floored when I told him what they cost.

Mikes connectors look good. Price is similar to an ACE but no hassels getting stock quanties and they took me only 5 days to get vs 4.5 weeks.

Thank you David and Billy. Your kind words are very much appreciated. :)

Billy what is your opinion of my "Toscano" ?

Pro-Scapes
03-26-2009, 12:22 AM
Its a really nice lfixture. Built real solid and blows away your previous version. I like how you can replace the socket without having to uproot the entire fixture and cut the splice. Socket to 16ga connection behind the heatshield right inside the fixture. I have not had a chance to light it up but I like how the louver is preinstalled for me and how the lens sits above the brass like the coppermoon does.Shouldnt hold debris unless there is some negative angle on it. Definatly not a toy for the masses thats for sure.

Whats up with the reflector behind the lamp ?

MAGLIGHTING
03-26-2009, 01:08 AM
Its a really nice lfixture. Built real solid and blows away your previous version. I like how you can replace the socket without having to uproot the entire fixture and cut the splice. Socket to 16ga connection behind the heatshield right inside the fixture. I have not had a chance to light it up but I like how the louver is preinstalled for me and how the lens sits above the brass like the coppermoon does.Shouldnt hold debris unless there is some negative angle on it. Definatly not a toy for the masses thats for sure.

Whats up with the reflector behind the lamp ?

It's a heatshield for the wire and It keeps the coiled up cable from coming into contact with the lamp. Keeps the interior of the fixture looking tidy. It also directs any stray light out of the wide angle lens of the fixture .

Light it up and check out the shielding and let me know what you think.
How do you like the 10" brass stake that has the cable strapped to it so it won't get yanked. There is also a strain relief inside the bottom of the fixture body to prevent wire from being pulled. Knuckle also has rubber o-ring seal and rubber bushing in stem.

The next run, I'm doing a brass tooless key along with the stainless hex nut that locks the serrated knuckle so you will have your choice of which to use.
The shield locks 4 positions.

Pro-Scapes
03-26-2009, 07:08 AM
Time to set up for the patio show. Send me 1 torino stem when your back in town please :)

I will check out the bullet more after the show is done.

MAGLIGHTING
03-26-2009, 08:15 AM
Time to set up for the patio show. Send me 1 torino stem when your back in town please :)

I will check out the bullet more after the show is done.

Sorry about the shortage of the path light stem. I'll get it right out to you.

I am back in town. Got in late tuesday night. More about that trip later..............

irrig8r
03-26-2009, 10:00 AM
Can't you guys use email for this private conversation?

irrig8r
03-26-2009, 10:01 AM
Back to the topic of the thread, Nightscaping News.....

I'm assuming that because it says "press release" I can share this...


Press Release

Thursday March 26, 2009
From: Seng Tee Tan and Rob DiSchino
Subject: Nightscaping® Status


After three and a half weeks of effort, we regretfully are no longer associated with the Nightscapng® brand of outdoor lighting. Any and all plans being made at this time by what is left of Nightscaping® will not include our services or those of the majority of the sales staff that you have dealt with in your respective areas. Mrs. Locklin has decided to run Nightscaping® based on her own philosophies and priorities and we wish her well. Our hope is that past established business practices and principles will not be sacrificed for expected future returns.

We have enjoyed our relationship with each and everyone as customers, confidants, and most importantly, as true friends. We owe you all a debt of gratitude and thanks. It is our hope that we can continue this relationship despite these recent developments.

Although we are saddened by this we look upon this as an opportunity to freely ponder our next course of action. We love this industry that we helped create and build. This 48 love affair will not end. We intend to step back, observe, and most likely come back with a different agenda. We are keeping an open mind and suggest that you do the same. Please feel free to share with us any opportunity or needs you see.

In the interim, if we can assist you in any way possible helping you maintain your lighting business and getting through the turmoil this corporate decision has created please feel free to contact us. We have placed our e-mail addresses below and Rob has listed his cell phone number.

Your friendship, kindness, and loyalty during these past years and especially these past weeks were priceless. Thank You

Sincerely,
Rob DiSchino and Seng Tee Tan

s.tee.tan@gmail.com

rdischino@gmail.com

JoeyD
03-26-2009, 11:36 AM
Wierd.........

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-26-2009, 04:22 PM
The whole situation has been 'weird'.

I wish LaVesta all the luck in the world, but I am rather skeptical that she will be able to pull off the enormous task of rebuilding the loyalty and faith that so many contractors had in Nightscaping for so very long. After all, the products are just tools, and there are many good tools to be had in the market. The real asset that NS had over others was the interpersonal relationships and their willingness and ability to customize any fixture, any time, on the fly, to specification and deliver it in a matter of days. With so many of the key individuals gone, or themselves worried and skeptical over the viability of their employment, it will be a long row to hoe for sure.

I just put in an order for some INTEGRALiters, and some customized Artisans and Postliters. Should be interesting to see how long it takes to get me the orders.

Regards.

Go Halogen
03-26-2009, 09:03 PM
James,

The way that you describe past joys of working with Nightscaping is exactly the way that I have been treated by Vista. They are always tweeking my fixtures orders and also doing some very creative add-ons (on the fly).

To my knowledge, they will do that for anyone. The biggest plus....they do it all within 24 hours and then ship it out anyway that I want it. I did a Harley Davidson dealorship two years ago and guess what they wanted.....
Chromed fixtures. Vista had the fixtures chromed and some nickel plated as well.

I am never afraid to ask for special things from them.

Food for thought....

-Andy

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-26-2009, 09:39 PM
Oh I have not problem using a wide variety of manufacturers. I have always done this. There are a few fixtures that Nightscaping makes that have no equal in the biz. It would be nice to be able to continue to use these in my systems.

I will be using a lot more Vista in the near future as well as a smattering of Unique fixtures as well.

MAGLIGHTING
03-26-2009, 10:55 PM
The whole situation has been 'weird'.

I wish LaVesta all the luck in the world, but I am rather skeptical that she will be able to pull off the enormous task of rebuilding the loyalty and faith that so many contractors had in Nightscaping for so very long. After all, the products are just tools, and there are many good tools to be had in the market. The real asset that NS had over others was the interpersonal relationships and their willingness and ability to customize any fixture, any time, on the fly, to specification and deliver it in a matter of days. With so many of the key individuals gone, or themselves worried and skeptical over the viability of their employment, it will be a long row to hoe for sure.

I just put in an order for some INTEGRALiters, and some customized Artisans and Postliters. Should be interesting to see how long it takes to get me the orders.
Regards.

Weird is not the word for this. I too put in an order for Nightscaping product today and I received a call from my distributor telling me that Nightscaping only has 25% of what I ordered. Doubt I'll get the other 75% but we'll see. FYI James the Artisanliter was mine and Tommy Meis's creation.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-27-2009, 01:06 AM
I had no idea that you were still using NS product Mike.

Apparently the factory is to resume full production on Monday. None of the product I ordered today is in inventory, they will have to build it all. It will be a good trial by fire. We will see.

I knew that Tom Meis had his hand in the design and development of the Artisan, that was a large part of his job there. I didnt realize you were part of that too. It is still a good yoke mount fixture, good for mounting to small architectural details. There are not many out there like it. What ever happened to Tom after he left NS? He seemed to drop off the map completely.

Have a great day.

irrig8r
03-27-2009, 01:23 AM
What ever happened to Tom after he left NS? He seemed to drop off the map completely.

Have a great day.

Looks like some info on his website was updated after he left Nightscaping.

http://www.artisanlite.com/index.htm

MAGLIGHTING
03-27-2009, 01:33 AM
I had no idea that you were still using NS product Mike.

Apparently the factory is to resume full production on Monday. None of the product I ordered today is in inventory, they will have to build it all. It will be a good trial by fire. We will see.

I knew that Tom Meis had his hand in the design and development of the Artisan, that was a large part of his job there. I didnt realize you were part of that too. It is still a good yoke mount fixture, good for mounting to small architectural details. There are not many out there like it. What ever happened to Tom after he left NS? He seemed to drop off the map completely.

Have a great day.

Yeah it was my idea and Tom got it done for me and asked if I wouldn't mind calling it Artisan after his landscape company.

The Monetliter, Gambinoliter were mine as well. It's a shame they built that fixture out of aluminum. I wanted them to do a brass casting but they didn't want to invest the money at the time.

I saw Tom a few weeks ago and he is doing well. He went back to being a landscape contractor. He was one of the "good guys" there.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-27-2009, 07:02 AM
No way!?!? The "Gambinoliter" was one of your designs Mike? I never would have guessed that! :) I actually installed 2 of those once. They slip fit right up into the existing pot light cans (ancient ones) over a garage. The garage has since been renovated and I was surprised to find that the fixtures had been re-installed as flush mounts on the soffits. I guess if it aint broke, why fix it?

It will be interesting to see if Mrs. Locklin and her Son-In-Law have what it takes to return Nightscaping to what it was. I suspect that there will be a lot of changes to the availability of custom orders and we might even loose some of the higher end lines like the Vermeer etc. I think she is in for a big surprise when it comes time to order raw materials.... I would suspect most of the vendors have put them on COD terms now. Like I said, they have a tough row to hoe.

MAGLIGHTING
03-27-2009, 09:45 PM
No way!?!? The "Gambinoliter" was one of your designs Mike? I never would have guessed that! :) I actually installed 2 of those once. They slip fit right up into the existing pot light cans (ancient ones) over a garage. The garage has since been renovated and I was surprised to find that the fixtures had been re-installed as flush mounts on the soffits. I guess if it aint broke, why fix it?

It will be interesting to see if Mrs. Locklin and her Son-In-Law have what it takes to return Nightscaping to what it was. I suspect that there will be a lot of changes to the availability of custom orders and we might even loose some of the higher end lines like the Vermeer etc. I think she is in for a big surprise when it comes time to order raw materials.... I would suspect most of the vendors have put them on COD terms now. Like I said, they have a tough row to hoe.

Who woulda guessed. I can't ever remember seeing so much dirty laundry aired out in the public domain before. I would think that such inner financial strife would be the last thing a company would want to bring public. It really doesn't instill a feeling of reliability and confidence in the company that's for sure.

I don't think Nightscaping is alone . My guess is that this year and maybe the next few coming yrs there will be shakeouts or consolidations hapenning just to keep the doors open . Time will tell.

irrig8r
03-31-2009, 01:29 AM
To Our Friends, Associates and Partners:

Welcome to a new era of Loran-Nightscaping®. After our short break to re-organize, we are alive, well and continuing to manufacture the finest low-voltage outdoor lighting systems in the industry. When you purchase our products, you will enjoy the same high quality lighting tools produced by the same hands of our skilled American craftsmen at our factory in Redlands, CA. Fabricated with the same care and skill that Bill Locklin insisted on for the past 50 years of Nightscaping®. And we still subscribe to our commitment of "Friends Doing Business With Friends."

Many of our factory staff still work with us. Some have moved on to other ventures, and we wish them the best. Our field representatives will return this week, providing their personal one-on-one service that is unmatched in our industry. The following individuals will be serving you and the company in their respective positions. Mr. Steve Atkinson, National Sales Manager: Connie Barnes, Office Sales Manager: Suzie Smith, Bookeeper and Accounts Payable: Linda Senchak, Accounts Receivable: Craig Woolley, Plant Manager: Tony Senchak, Purchasing Agent and Raymond Collazo, Computer Manager and Payroll. These individuals have many years of experience here at Nightscaping® and none are new to the company. During the month of April, Nightscaping® will be adding a new General Manager, a new Finance Manager and Customer Service at the factory will be greatly enhanced.

We are ready to fill your orders for Nightscaping® product.

Our company and staff are committed to ensuring that Bill Locklin's legacy will live on. Nightscaping's® 50th Anniversary is truly a very special occasion. I would like you to be a part of that.

Regards...

LaVesta Locklin
Loran Nightscaping®
Owner/ President
909-794-2121 office
909-794-7272 fax
lavesta@nightscaping.com

Steve Atkinson
Loran-Nightscaping®
National Sales Manager
530-409-0795 cell
530-621-2636 office/fax
stevea@nightscaping.com

JoeyD
03-31-2009, 10:12 AM
Thats good news!! Thanks for posting Gregg!! Kudos to Nightscaping for not just throwing in the towel!! Still wierd how all this went down but I am glad to see them make it through this tough time.

irrig8r
03-31-2009, 01:02 PM
We'll see Joey. To my way of thinking, competition is good for product improvements and new product ideas... if as Mike G. seems to suggest, the state of the economy leads to more consolidations and familiar company names going by the wayside, then maybe we're worse off. But you don't see too many Studebakers, DeSotos or Ramblers around anymore either, do you?

klkanders
03-31-2009, 02:03 PM
Don't be trashin my Ramblers now Gregg! :) My Dad was an AMC dealer during their glory days of 67-74 when they were putting out some very innovative cars. I still own a 69 AMX 2-seater. I don't know much about Nightscaping but it seems they were also ahead of the game in the development of low-voltage lighting and set the bar for everyone to follow.

Keith

Mr. Quik electric
03-31-2009, 06:13 PM
Don't be trashin my Ramblers now Gregg! :) My Dad was an AMC dealer during their glory days of 67-74 when they were putting out some very innovative cars. I still own a 69 AMX 2-seater. I don't know much about Nightscaping but it seems they were also ahead of the game in the development of low-voltage lighting and set the bar for everyone to follow.

Keith

Maybe they set the bar in product innovation 10-15 years ago, but they have long since leaned the bar up against the wall in the corner. Just my opinion though, so we all know what that is worth.

irrig8r
03-31-2009, 07:49 PM
Don't be trashin my Ramblers now Gregg! :) My Dad was an AMC dealer during their glory days of 67-74 when they were putting out some very innovative cars. I still own a 69 AMX 2-seater. I don't know much about Nightscaping but it seems they were also ahead of the game in the development of low-voltage lighting and set the bar for everyone to follow.

Keith

Studebaker put out some cool ones too, like my favorite, the '63 Avanti, the Lark and the Hawk... they had some features that were quirky and ahead of their time (like pushbutton transmissions) and in some ways Nightscaping did too.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Studebaker_Avanti.jpg

I purposely picked the three brands I did because they were all still in business the year Nightscaping was started, 1959.

Fifty years later and they're gone, but Nightscaping is still here.

klkanders
03-31-2009, 08:51 PM
Gregg, Nice cars and pics! Very true about being around 50 years......its quite an accomplishment. Even guys like me who have never used Nightscaping product have to respect that.
Who could be next on the chopping block....GM....Chrysler?

Keith

Pro-Scapes
03-31-2009, 08:58 PM
exatcomundo!

How many are losing faith in GM and Chrysler products. Even James went with a toyota this time around. I for one am furious with GM right now. 3 times before my warranty was up I had it to the dealer to be repaired. All 3 times no problem found. Now... 10k out of warranty I have thrown 1300 bucks at my truck and they still have not fixed the issue.

It is hard to have faith especially when it comes to warranty in a stuggeling company. Especially when that stuggeling company has a product line which is a couple of steps behind the competition. Great concepts but whats important is the reality. I can order anything I want from Nightscaping or GM but when it comes down to customer service both have left me disapointed. Both are struggeling.

See the similarities ?

MAGLIGHTING
03-31-2009, 09:00 PM
After 50 years in business the least president Obama could do is give Lovesta bailout money.

Guaranteed had McCain won and if Bill were still alive he'd be spinning Illuminators on a lathe in the Whitehouse basement. Probably have his sand casting operation right in the oval office :usflag:

irrig8r
03-31-2009, 11:32 PM
It is hard to have faith especially when it comes to warranty in a struggling company. Especially when that stuggeling company has a product line which is a couple of steps behind the competition. Great concepts but whats important is the reality. I can order anything I want from Nightscaping or GM but when it comes down to customer service both have left me disapointed. Both are struggeling.

See the similarities ?

The recent brief hiatus Nightscaping took reminded me that a lifetime warranty is only good as long as the company exists...

OTOH, I hear the govt. is going to back GM and Chrysler warranties...

David Gretzmier
04-01-2009, 09:10 AM
I'm pretty sure if Bill were still alive he'd be working who ever was president. 99% of the time companies fail because they fail to plan for the future. This is the case with nightscaping, G, Chrystler, GM ( Notice Ford planned for this recession 2 years ago by mortgaging everything it owned while it could, although it will need help when out of cash in 12 months or so) .

the same is true with us. 99% of us have very little to no long term plan for the future. I am planned out maybe 1 year, with some 5 year goals and 10 year dreams. If I were to die tomorrow, my business would fail. In 5 years, failure.

try to remember GM beat everyone to the punch with the first mass produced electric car. They pretty much invented the NIMH battery production process. and they crushed nearly every car and cancelled the project. where would they be if they actually continued the car and had improved it over a period of 10-15 years? Instead, Toyota wins the prize for making the first hybrid and selling the crap out of them.

NightscapingInsider
04-25-2009, 12:41 AM
There is a lot of details that have been left out of the recent restructuring of Nightscaping. Unfortunately, loyal employees of the company were fired due to the new change in ownership of the company since the recent death of Bill. The details are difficult, seeminly suspicious, and uncharacteristic of the Nightscaping way of doing business.
I will not defame the name or image that Nightscaping has built, but urge you to look further into the sudden shutdown of the plant.

NightscapingInsider
04-25-2009, 01:15 AM
I am deeply saddened at the turn of events at Nightscaping. It literally breaks my heart that as Bill passed on, the company changed so dramatically. Without dropping names, imagine a company created by Bill, based on Friends doing business with friends, yet, through greed- friends are no longer friends, they are jobless, released for no reason other than they were in the way of new owners goals (you can imagine what that is). I loved Nightscaping, yet will no longer even consider bringing my business to Redlands. Again, more disturbing details lie beneath the eloquent words of the company.. This public forum is no venue to get into details, but through long time connections, experience and common sense, I see right through it.

irrig8r
04-25-2009, 01:33 AM
Come clean and identify yourself if you want anyone to take you seriously.

"Insider"?

Former salesperson, office staff, production worker...or?

Maybe just another contractor installing their products?

Anyone can take potshots behind a mask of anonymity.

What's done is done.

Some of us see an opportunity for them to streamline their product line and become more efficient. We'd like them to succeed.

NightscapingInsider
04-25-2009, 10:17 AM
I am connected to Nightscaping through a long lasting releationship with Bill. A friend, not a contractor, not a salesman. I understand being anonymous is shady- but just want you all to look into the facts.

irrig8r
04-25-2009, 10:46 AM
Since you don't have enough posts to use private messaging on lawnsite, please email me and/ or James Solecki. James and I were also friends of Bill. I first met Bill in 1989.

We won't expose your identity. But I do believe that taking anonymous shots at a company is unfair.

irrig8r
04-25-2009, 11:08 AM
I remember once a while back, before Bill got sick, when he must have read a story about the negative effects that anonymous attacks through the Internet could have on a business' reputation, and brought it up on Nightchat, an email list of loyal contractors/ Nightscaping users.

As I recall, it was after his reading an article on blogs, in the WSJ or some other business publication.

It's just one reason why I think allowing anonymous users on message boards like this are a bad idea. It doesn't take much for a disgruntled employee or competitor to stain a company's reputation.

johnh
04-25-2009, 11:03 PM
I am deeply saddened at the turn of events at Nightscaping. It literally breaks my heart that as Bill passed on, the company changed so dramatically. Without dropping names, imagine a company created by Bill, based on Friends doing business with friends, yet, through greed- friends are no longer friends, they are jobless, released for no reason other than they were in the way of new owners goals (you can imagine what that is). I loved Nightscaping, yet will no longer even consider bringing my business to Redlands. Again, more disturbing details lie beneath the eloquent words of the company.. This public forum is no venue to get into details, but through long time connections, experience and common sense, I see right through it.

But you consider this public forum the venue to spew conjecture and inuendo? "eloquent words" ? Did you actually receive any of those emails? Quit hiding behind the mask of anonymity, if you have something to say, say it. What is your motivation for making these comments? What are you trying to accomplish?
I have a natural distrust for people who make broad general comments, with no specific detail or facts, and hide while doing it.

John Higo

Alan B
04-26-2009, 06:21 AM
The more manufacturers and distributors--the more choices--the better it is for the contractor and the industry. Bashing hurts the industry which in turn hurts the contractor. Hopefully Nightscaping, a great component of the industry, will adapt to change and thrive.

I'm sorry their changes don't work for you personally. But like all bashing, it usually comes from people with an agenda.

David Gretzmier
04-26-2009, 05:19 PM
I don't know, When I don't like a particular product, method, manufacturor, dealer, whatever, and I bash it, it is because I think it is wrong and not because I have any preset agenda.

I appalud all others who use logic and common sense when they state an opinion and back it up with facts and anecdotal stories.. it is what makes this site valuable to readers and posters alike.

I do hate when folks just state they use A or B just because...they always have. and then they bash whatever other folks do or use because...they don't do it that way.

Nightscaping is where it is because of the market of installers that use what works. When thier products are no longer the best, overpriced, or for whatever failing they may have and thier is a better product, the smart installers use the better product. the slower adopters eventually do the same.

The loyalists who don't change no matter what often ENABLE companies to NOT improve thier products. the companies get complacent. they don't invest in better manufacturing methods and explore ways to improve the value/price of the product.

Nightscaping has constantly had the highest cost items to the installer, yet they have been behind the curve on tech for so long, that many lower cost items have exceeded them in quality and ease of use to the installer for years. They do still have some products that are the best, but it almost is as if this is by accident rather than on purpose. And who among us does not raise thier eyebrows at the cost? I have clients that are stunned at the cost of PARTS on some of thier nightscaping items in thier system. I too am often bowled over at paying more for a repair item than an entire quality light that could replace it.

I hope that whoever comes in can turn around the essential founding company of landscape lighting. to say it sounds easy- make simple, great quality lights at a reasonable cost to an already established distributorship
network.

to start- nightscaping, please listen-How about a focus on a bronze/brass/copper waterproof uplight with:

1 an easy to change 20 watt 60 degree MR-16 bulb installed,
2 slight rain drain bubble lens,
3 with hexcomb louver install available, but not installed or included
4 decent hand adjustable shroud ( THUMBSCREWS),
5 hand adjustable angle with real teeth (THUMBSCREWS),
6 sturdy 10 inch plus plastic stake that you can somehow hammer in THEN thread the wire and light through and into/onto, and a surface mount available
7 thick silicone gaskets prelubed,
8 a good but easy to replace socket,
7 at least 15 foot 16 guage lead wire,
8 light that that is already assembled and easy to take out of the package, pull off the twisty for the wire ( hey, how about no twisty?)
9 and just make it easy to install the friggin thing?

and HEY,

10 price it like you went somewhere designed it, prototyped it, and bought a few container loads, like anybody else would,could. and has.
11 Put your name on it like you are proud of it, with a phone number to call if it breaks.

then 12 fix it for free if it does. no arguments, just fix it.

and psst- 13 don't put the price I pay for this light on the internet and sell it to everyone- my customers, believe it or not, know how to use google.

just 14 sell it through your existing dealer network. and don't make them eat warranty fixes.

This one light, if priced in the marketplace fairly with everyone else, I would buy HUNDREDS of. It is the bread and butter of all of us, yet it does not exist from the oldest landscape light company out there. HOW? WHY? WHY is it so hard to find a light that will save an installer time? why do most of the mr-16 nightscaping lights I replace have either a cork ( CORK ? ) or rubber innertube material as a gasket to keep water out? why is it so hard to replace the bulbs, it is so freaking hard to open some of these things . why do I have to spend 10-20 minutes of my time to open and assemble the new light? I ranted on this vey subject, what, a year ago, 18 months ago, and this light still does not exist. not nightscaping, not anybody. doesn't anyone that makes lights actually install them?

why do I believe that nightscaping has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars designing beautiful lights that I only need once every 2 years? or never? looking back,was this a good use of thier resources?


This is not about an agenda. this is about doing things right and wrong. and Nightscaping has been doing it wrong for too long and all of us know it. build it right, stand behind it, and everyone will come back. I will come back and speak with my pocketbook.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-26-2009, 08:45 PM
I will not deny anyone their opinion. David has emphatically stated his opinion. Personally, I don't share his opinion and there are many others out there who do not share it either.

David Gretzmier
04-26-2009, 09:58 PM
many people disagree with me on lots of things. I am specific. I am detailed to the point of pointing out the problem and then I try to offer at least some solution/solutions. at least debate there is a problem, fine, be detailed, and use facts, common sense, and logic. I have no problem with folks questioning facts, figures or showing me how I am wrong. I wholeheartedly admit when I lose points and when the person disagreeing with me is right and I am wrong. That's healthy to getting to solutions that work.

If nothing changes at Nightscaping, they deserve and you deserve what happens to them.

stating you don't agree with me and leaving it at that, well, I guess that works for you.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-27-2009, 12:36 AM
I dont have the time or inclination to debate you on this topic David.

Things have already changed at Nightscaping and many more changes are currently in the works and planned for the near future.

I liken my loyalty to this company to that of standing by a sick friend. Just because someone you know well gets ill, maybe to the point of hospitalization, does not mean you toss in the towel and turn your back on them. Even if the situation turns critical, possibly terminal, does that mean you dump them and move on, or do you stick by them, support them how you can, and try to help to make things better?

Bill said it best: "Friends doing business with friends."

Pro-Scapes
04-27-2009, 08:11 AM
I dont have the time or inclination to debate you on this topic David.

Things have already changed at Nightscaping and many more changes are currently in the works and planned for the near future.

I liken my loyalty to this company to that of standing by a sick friend. Just because someone you know well gets ill, maybe to the point of hospitalization, does not mean you toss in the towel and turn your back on them. Even if the situation turns critical, possibly terminal, does that mean you dump them and move on, or do you stick by them, support them how you can, and try to help to make things better?

Bill said it best: "Friends doing business with friends."

I doubt you dont have the time to reply to david since you will post 50 other times :)

Your speaking of 2 different things James. Standing by a sick friend or a friend in need is a personal and emotional thing. Its a living soul. Standing by a sick product or a product you can find something better and of more value out there is a business decision. Nothing more nothing less.

While I can appreciate your loyalty to NS and all I gotta agree with David. They do make some quality and different fixtures but from what I have seen they need the meat and potatoes and not just the side orders. I was very impressed with the clairliters I used. I was also impressed by the wrightliter with the eyebrown but when I gotta service things like the magnaliter or any of thoes square lights it makes me cringe with all thoes tiny screws.

Long before I ever said a cross word about nightscaping I had problems with service. With Unique and coppermoon 1 email or text is usually answered within minutes and the problem corrected as soon as the next day but no longer than 3 days.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-27-2009, 09:01 AM
I have never stated that the entire Nightscaping line is perfect, necessary or even marketable. I stand by the 7 to 12 fixtures or so that are excellent. Nobody ever asked you guys to use 100% of the line... if you don't like it, then don't buy it. But don't bash the company that also innovates and produces some of the most unique products in the industry. Their 50 year history in this business is filled with 1sts and remarkable innovations. Now they are embarking on a mission to rebuild that business and change it in a positive direction.

Nightscaping, at least the old version, was so much more than a business decision. It was a relationship that worked, proven over and over, again and again. Through its employees, agents and contractors I have built a strong network of colleagues and friends, not to mention a line of new and unique products, all designed, formed, built & assembled in the USA.

All of my service and customization request have always been handled efficiently, effectively and in a timely manner. I have never had a warranty or service issue in over a decade of using their products. I just pick up the phone, to my Rep. or direct to the factory and speak to the top person in charge.

I am currently standing by, hoping to see the new regime pick up and carry forward the old school way of doing business while at the same time culling the line and making the necessary modernizations and improvements that the contractors are asking for. It is a tall order I know, but not impossible.

NightscapingInsider
04-28-2009, 12:08 AM
What happened to Bill's right hand man, who had been working next to Bill for the last some 20 years?

What really happened when they shut down for a few weeks?

Who is now in charge?

Just a couple of short questions I encourage you to find out...

I do not have an agenda, just want to make you think. Obviously you choose what works best for you..if that is NS, then go for it!

I understand anonymous comments are worthless, so feel free to just ignore this..take it as you wish.
Have a great day!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
04-28-2009, 01:08 AM
1: Seng Tee Tan was Nightscaping's CFO for many more years than most would remember. After Bill's passing there was a falling out between him and Bill's widow, the current owner of Nightscaping.

2: During the production shut down, Mrs. Locklin looked at many different options to re-structure the business. Many of the employees stayed on a volunteer basis and they continued to ship inventory on a limited basis. Offers to purchase were explored, potential investors were explored and in the end Mrs. Locklin found some new capital to invest into the business allowing it to resume production.

3: Mrs. Locklin is the owner of Loran Inc - Nightscaping. They are seeking a new General Manager as we speak. Steve Atkinson has been promoted to National Sales Manager. Connie Barnes is in charge of inside sales / contractor support and Craig is the new production manager.

The whole process has been painfully open and transparent.

NiteTymeIlluminations
04-30-2009, 08:55 AM
Is there any update on Nightscaping? Are they shipping product or not? If I spec a product what are the chances we can get it? Are they cleaning out inventory? James?

JoeyD
04-30-2009, 10:02 AM
They are shipping from what I understand and have been for a little while now.......

NiteTymeIlluminations
04-30-2009, 01:11 PM
since you wont sell me your tiki torch joey!!!!

JoeyD
04-30-2009, 02:03 PM
its not ready yet but will be SOOOOONNNNN!!!! LOL Your gonna like it too!

Lite4
04-30-2009, 03:12 PM
I could have sold some of those Tikis to a job last month.

TXNSLighting
04-30-2009, 03:17 PM
its not ready yet but will be SOOOOONNNNN!!!! LOL Your gonna like it too!

you better let me know as soon as this is out!! Or you can go ahead and send me one for my approval...for free of course..

JoeyD
04-30-2009, 03:45 PM
of course!~!!! LOL

I will keep you guys posted on them when they come out!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
05-01-2009, 12:54 AM
Is there any update on Nightscaping? Are they shipping product or not? If I spec a product what are the chances we can get it? Are they cleaning out inventory? James?

Nightscaping is back in production and has been for about a month now. They are culling the lineup of outdated fixtures and consulting about what improvements should be made to the lineup.

There have been some staffing changes at the factory and with the Reps.

There have been some issues with the re-start of production, mostly to do with component inventories and some specialty lines are on hold while inventory is procured. For the most part most product is being shipped in reasonable time frames.