gonna regret this

[turf hokie]

but I hope not

I have some questions for the organic side of the industry. I hope not to offend but I can't seem to understand some things....especially after sitting in on Chip Osborne's beginner seminar.

Some of this may be specific to my region, I dont know. Please correct me if I am wrong, I want to understand and implement this not only because in 2010 I will be forced to in some areas, but I started converting with the organic bridge last year because I feel it is the right/best thing to do.

There is a definitive movement towards organics here, towns, counties imposing laws to restrict or eliminate fertilizer.chemicals etc. Currently there are local laws banning fert apps from Dec 1 to Apr1. a no phos ban, and towns and counties going to organic only.

I am trying to learn and implement, but ...... please help me out....I post here because I feel that there is more knowlege available from this group than I can get locally

Why does it seem like this organic movement is a religion or a cult? Every time I go to a meeting or seminar I feel like "one of those" that did not go cold turkey and embrace organics 100%.

Why are there no updated studies that were presented, slides that were showing documentation from 1967, things have changed significantly since then. It seems that the organic groups pull what benefits them and ignore the whole study. I mean if you have to go back 40 years to show a point your gonna lose me, that data is older than me.

Why is that common sense cutural practices are preached as organic. Do those that use synthetic not understand and implement proper watering, proper mowing etc? Are these not methods that transcend one or the other?

Do a good number of you still use "Silent Spring" to attack synthetics? I am tired of hearing quotes out of this book, it too is old and based on old technology out at the time.

Most assume that all synthetic applicators continue to use 2-4d and that it causes cancer....has that not been debunked? Do we still need to compare to agent orange?? Scare tactics dont win me over either.

It was presented that bio=life and cide=death so it is assumed that you can put them together and get biocide, or the killing of life. Just seems like a leap to me when there are organic products out there that are EPA registered as a "cide" and some that can be equally dangerous as any synthetic out there. But it is only the synthetic that are characterized as "biocides"

Why does it seem like a lot of opinion being presented as fact, or pictures being shown that dont give the entire background of what was done, just a before and after picture.

Is it standard practice to overseed in the spring with "contractor's seed" which contains annual, intermediate and perrenial seed? Would this not cause for a patchy/poor lawn that now has what I would consider weed grasses in it? This was presented as good practice.

I know that there is no "cookie cutter" program but how do you set up something for the customer to get a budget, I cant continually go back and say "well this area is going to take a bit more work, it will cost another x" like was suggested. Most customers around here will be understanding to a point but it is still NY.

How do you manage a sand based athletic field when it was flat out said organics wont work in this situation.

I have more, but I dont want to continue writing a book. I hope does not come across wrong, I just want some help understanding.

Thank you
Bryan

[roccon31]

i think alot of it geared towards the guys that advertise fert service, then go buy some fert and start slinging pellets. "more is better" crowd if you will. we have ALOT of them springing up here as guys are trying to keep cash flowing and adding services to their mowing companies. these are the guys that created the problem in the first place.

there are a few reputable companies here that all they do is fert, then there is chemlawn and scotts, and then there is joe schmo with his earthway spreader and lots of fert bags from home depot.

it seems like they are trying to beat this stuff into the heads of the joe schmo type, not the type that has already seen the light (you and i). i feel they are trying to change mindset more than educate.

baby steps......

[muddstopper]

I think your reference to religion or cult hits the nail more closely than you might think. Most of your organic folks attend one seminar on organics and then become fanatics. They hear Dr.Extreme make a few very broad statements on chemicals and ferts and how they are killing all of us, and then set out to change the world. They never take the time to findout the Paul Harvey rest of the story. It not the chemicals and synthetic ferts that are killing everybody, its the chemical and synthetic ferts in the hands of too many people that dont know how to use them and dont take the time to learn. Organics can be just as harmful in the hands of those same people that are now using the chemicals. Have you ever stopped to think about how well E-bola and Salmonella can just thrive in improperly composted materials. If not just look back to the outbreaks in the last couple of years with the Spinage, tomatoes, peppers, ect, ect, and other organicly grown food crops. Organics can be just as deadly in the wrong hands as the chemicals.

My suggestion to you is to learn all you can and continue to research and ask questions. There is more to organics than using compost and microbes. A healthy soil contains chemical as well as biological properties working in balance.

[Kiril]

Why does it seem like this organic movement is a religion or a cult? Every time I go to a meeting or seminar I feel like "one of those" that did not go cold turkey and embrace organics 100%.

I agree, it can be like that at times with the organic purists, but I think the perception is more a political one than a reasonable one.

Why are there no updated studies that were presented, slides that were showing documentation from 1967, things have changed significantly since then. It seems that the organic groups pull what benefits them and ignore the whole study. I mean if you have to go back 40 years to show a point your gonna lose me, that data is older than me.

There are plenty of studies that are more recent than that. Exactly what were they presenting? Just because a study wasn't performed in the past 10 years does not mean the findings are irrelevant.

Why is that common sense cutural practices are preached as organic. Do those that use synthetic not understand and implement proper watering, proper mowing etc? Are these not methods that transcend one or the other?

The door swings in both directions .... however IMO there is more room for "error" in an organic based program.

Do a good number of you still use "Silent Spring" to attack synthetics? I am tired of hearing quotes out of this book, it too is old and based on old technology out at the time.

Never read it.

Most assume that all synthetic applicators continue to use 2-4d and that it causes cancer....has that not been debunked? Do we still need to compare to agent orange?? Scare tactics dont win me over either.

There are good reasons for not using synthetics, scare tactics are not needed. As far as 2,4-D is concerned, no it hasn't been debunked and it did make up about 50% of agent orange, so I'm not sure where you are going with this?

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/24d-captan/24d-ext.html

It was presented that bio=life and cide=death so it is assumed that you can put them together and get biocide, or the killing of life. Just seems like a leap to me when there are organic products out there that are EPA registered as a "cide" and some that can be equally dangerous as any synthetic out there. But it is only the synthetic that are characterized as "biocides"

Organic or not, the important thing to consider is the environmental fate and consequences of whatever is applied.

Why does it seem like a lot of opinion being presented as fact, or pictures being shown that dont give the entire background of what was done, just a before and after picture.

Don't know what you are talking about, so no comment.

Is it standard practice to overseed in the spring with "contractor's seed" which contains annual, intermediate and perrenial seed? Would this not cause for a patchy/poor lawn that now has what I would consider weed grasses in it? This was presented as good practice.

Huh? Perhaps you are confusing conventional turf with native no mow?

I know that there is no "cookie cutter" program but how do you set up something for the customer to get a budget, I cant continually go back and say "well this area is going to take a bit more work, it will cost another x" like was suggested. Most customers around here will be understanding to a point but it is still NY.

Get out of the "program" mindset. Explain the goals of what you want to accomplish and what it will potentially take to get there. IMHO, the whole program mindset is the biggest problem facing this industry, and that goes for both sides of the fence.

How do you manage a sand based athletic field when it was flat out said organics wont work in this situation.

Explain what you mean when you say "flat out said".

[turf hokie]

I agree, it can be like that at times with the organic purists, but I think the perception is more a political one than a reasonable one.
I knew I hated politics, I agree, the extremists saddled right about to the people that were representing the town interests



There are plenty of studies that are more recent than that. Exactly what were they presenting? Just because a study wasn't performed in the past 10 years does not mean the findings are irrelevant.
I did not mean to say it was irrelevant, the theory is obvious with regards to mowing and water. My beef was that it stated percentages of weed control etc. but did not give grass type, watering times, frequency of cuts. And being that it was done in 1967 everything has changed, irrigation systems, grass cultivars, even mowers.



The door swings in both directions .... however IMO there is more room for "error" in an organic based program.



Never read it.



There are good reasons for not using synthetics, scare tactics are not needed. As far as 2,4-D is concerned, no it hasn't been debunked and it did make up about 50% of agent orange, so I'm not sure where you are going with this?
I think without realizing, you got my point, scare tactics are not needed. Fact based ideas are how I base my decisions, what works,what doesnt was is least toxic etc. It just seems like a lot of shooting from the hip with a scare tactic, and that is unfortunate because when there is truth to things like 2-4d, I tend to continue to be skeptical. I was actually asking a question about 2-4d not being a cancer causing agent. I dont remember where, but I thought there was information disproving the connection?

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/24d-captan/24d-ext.html



Organic or not, the important thing to consider is the environmental fate and consequences of whatever is applied.



Don't know what you are talking about, so no comment.
There were slides presented that were before and after but there was no background given (again) in regards to plant species, timing, watering,etc it was just organic good, see



Huh? Perhaps you are confusing conventional turf with native no mow?
Not at all he was responding to a question regarding a home lawn and how to get it to recover quickly from past year insect/disease damage in the spring.



Get out of the "program" mindset. Explain the goals of what you want to accomplish and what it will potentially take to get there. IMHO, the whole program mindset is the biggest problem facing this industry, and that goes for both sides of the fence.



Explain what you mean when you say "flat out said".
I dont have a recording, but it came right from his mouth, he said that an organic program with compost etc would not work on a sand field because it would mess with the drainage, thus causing other problems.

I dont know how to do that multiple quote thing so bear with me.

[turf hokie]

Thank you Mudd and Rocoon

Both of you hit precisely on some of my ideas as to why this is such a battle, I have always said the the states go after the legal applicators because they are easy to find instead of going after johnny one truck that just throws stuff out there because he thinks he can make a buck.

I also think that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, especially in a public forum where some of these activists pass opinions as truth.

I much rather come here and have people like yourselves, kiril, tree etc where I can learn and figure out what is and what is not accurate.

Kiril, I read the link, it looks like you are right it has not been debunked, but it has not been proven either, so I guess the debate will go on.

[Kiril]

There were slides presented that were before and after but there was no background given (again) in regards to plant species, timing, watering,etc it was just organic good, see

Well, since I have not attended the course, nor will I ever, my best guess would be these items were not addressed because it was a beginner seminar.

Not at all he was responding to a question regarding a home lawn and how to get it to recover quickly from past year insect/disease damage in the spring.

Well, I'm not sure what he means by "contractor seed", but for lawns that are still thin after a fall reseed I will throw out some more seed of the same type I used in the fall, in the spring.

I dont have a recording, but it came right from his mouth, he said that an organic program with compost etc would not work on a sand field because it would mess with the drainage, thus causing other problems.

Not sure I agree with this, and I'm fairly certain TG will chime in saying the same.

[turf hokie]

Kiril,

I hope that the course was presented the way it was because it was a beginner course. I can say I was fairly disappointed, I think perhaps I went in expecting some more details on how to and what to do. And not just real basic cultural practices with some organic nomenclature thrown in.

His contractor seed that he mentioned, he specifically said annual rye to get faster germination with some perennial. Which really surprised me, I would have thought a PR blend would be recommended, it comes up fast and does not look bad or stand out like a annual or intermediate rye.

As far as the sand based fields, I hope it is wrong. I dont have any in my portfolio but may soon. These are in areas that are going to organics and I was scared to death that we would not be able to maintain the fields up to standard.

[Kiril]

His contractor seed that he mentioned, he specifically said annual rye to get faster germination with some perennial. Which really surprised me, I would have thought a PR blend would be recommended, it comes up fast and does not look bad or stand out like a annual or intermediate rye.

Well, personally I think using rye just for a faster germination rate and green-up is stooooooopid. There are ways to get faster germination rates (according to Bill) without having to resort to contaminating your turf with undesirable species. I personally have not tried Bills technique of soaking your seed in CT before applying it, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work.

As far as the sand based fields, I hope it is wrong. I dont have any in my portfolio but may soon. These are in areas that are going to organics and I was scared to death that we would not be able to maintain the fields up to standard.

Drainage is not one of the issues I would be concerned about unless you have a high water table or a confining layer, then there might be reason for concern. In this case, building up your SOM probably wouldn't be the best course of action.

[Smallaxe]

Turf care is to make money off the HO's desire to be the best on the block.
It has evolved into a cash cow thanks to redundant deliterious practices that require more money to fix.

I have said it b4 and here we are again.
Grass is the simplest thing in the world to grow. Good soil makes it grow better.

In our world: ... 2 much fert requires, 2 much water, requires aeration/dethatching, requires fungicide, requires soil tests, and the list can grow larger.
Never give a sucker an even break.

Many people go cool on organics when they realize there is NOT a lot of money to be made on repeated apps on the same convenient property.

[robtown]

because organic turf care people are elitists and thats the way we like it.
because scare tactics work on mob mentality. ( did you not see the stimulus packages?)
everyone knows homeowners arent going to challenge what we say.... and even if they did google it to see for themselves they would look at the danger posts and wouldnt read any furthor.
this year all our marketing will be slanted to any one who had a child in the past 2 years. We will send them a letter with some made up research crap about autisim and chemical ferts and pesticides. and bamm new customer.
weeeeee
good luck with getting into organics.
because if your not with us you must be ignorant.
lol...

[bicmudpuppy]

I'm not going to quote, just comment on the athletic field briefly. The possibility that an "organic" approach could cause watering problems could be "valid" if that was the only change that was made. Increases in organic matter will slow the infiltration rate of the sand, BUT a well designed athletic field, with an increased organic matter content is going TO USE LESS WATER, so the irrigation system will need to be managed as well. If the irrigation system is managed to accommodate the improved soil, the savings in water, chemicals, and fertilizer will out weigh the potential loss of infiltration of the soil profile. Cycle and soak irrigation cycles will be beneficial, but they probably should have been in place already. The only possible threat here is if your field is in an area where rainfall could actually flood the field, but again, if the field was designed properly from the start, I cannot see this as a real problem.

[treegal1]

be ready its coming, and it will blow you away..............

[Barefoot James]

Wow robtown you are really sort of weird and scary. I'm glad I'm not in NJ - based on that post I think you are in this business for ALL the wrong reasons. You just make up stuff to scare folks - WOW!:nono:

[Barefoot James]

this year all our marketing will be slanted to any one who had a child in the past 2 years. We will send them a letter with some made up research crap about autisim and chemical ferts and pesticides. and bamm new customer.
weeeeee


This is not a joke and the more I think about this the madder I get. I have a nephew with autism who I love very much and to have this sort of make up in your heart is very disturbing. Then you use scare tactics to grow your business. Totally unethical and basically in human. Educating the public on the benefits is one thing but you sir have crossed the line. There are actual studies on REAL autism causes - maybe you should stick with facts and not ruin organics for the rest of us who really are tying to help folks with real research and benefits.

[Kiril]

because organic turf care people are elitists and thats the way we like it.
because scare tactics work on mob mentality. ( did you not see the stimulus packages?)
everyone knows homeowners arent going to challenge what we say.... and even if they did google it to see for themselves they would look at the danger posts and wouldnt read any furthor.
this year all our marketing will be slanted to any one who had a child in the past 2 years. We will send them a letter with some made up research crap about autisim and chemical ferts and pesticides. and bamm new customer.
weeeeee
good luck with getting into organics.
because if your not with us you must be ignorant.
lol...

Dude, all I can say is WTF. Your attitude is completely fracked up, not to mention politics have no place here. Go away now please.

[bicmudpuppy]

because organic turf care people are elitists and thats the way we like it.
because scare tactics work on mob mentality. ( did you not see the stimulus packages?)
everyone knows homeowners arent going to challenge what we say.... and even if they did google it to see for themselves they would look at the danger posts and wouldnt read any furthor.
this year all our marketing will be slanted to any one who had a child in the past 2 years. We will send them a letter with some made up research crap about autisim and chemical ferts and pesticides. and bamm new customer.
weeeeee
good luck with getting into organics.
because if your not with us you must be ignorant.
lol...


Maybe we are spoiled over in the irrigation forum. MJD drops in quite often and lurks more than many realize. I can't believe the mods haven't stepped in here. Unethical crap like that should be grounds to lose site privileges. Maybe that's just mho.

[Dchall_San_Antonio]

I am hesitant to call further attention to robtown's reply above but, well, here I am. Although the attitude, ignorance, and suggestions expressed may be very disagreeable, this is a forum of personal thoughts, opinions, and ideas - to a point. But it is not an editorial site where the members provide the general thoughts and the moderators reword them to sound pretty. Those who are offended or disagree with him can reply (and some have), blow him off, chalk that one message up to him having a bad day, or go further and hide all of his messages from your personal view using the tools on the site. This one message is far out of character for him and does not establish a pattern of being disagreeable. It's sad but I've seen valuable contributors banned from forums for one silly mistake. I'm inclined at this point to let it slide and see what he can do to rebuild his damaged credibility.

On the original topic, I hope I can help.

I have some questions for the organic side of the industry. I hope not to offend but I can't seem to understand some things....especially after sitting in on Chip Osborne's beginner seminar.

Some of this may be specific to my region, I dont know. Please correct me if I am wrong, I want to understand and implement this not only because in 2010 I will be forced to in some areas, but I started converting with the organic bridge last year because I feel it is the right/best thing to do.

There is a definitive movement towards organics here, towns, counties imposing laws to restrict or eliminate fertilizer.chemicals etc. Currently there are local laws banning fert apps from Dec 1 to Apr1. a no phos ban, and towns and counties going to organic only.

I am trying to learn and implement, but ...... please help me out....I post here because I feel that there is more knowlege available from this group than I can get locally

Why does it seem like this organic movement is a religion or a cult? Every time I go to a meeting or seminar I feel like "one of those" that did not go cold turkey and embrace organics 100%. This is possibly because most of the people attending are already using organic materials. To use your metaphor, they think they are preaching to the choir. There isn't much love for the organic hippies out there so they give it to each other.

Why are there no updated studies that were presented, slides that were showing documentation from 1967, things have changed significantly since then. It seems that the organic groups pull what benefits them and ignore the whole study. I mean if you have to go back 40 years to show a point your gonna lose me, that data is older than me. Possibly because the newest information if fairly difficult to comprehend unless you are a microbiologist. Here's the gist of the latest stuff. In the 1990s it was thought there might be as many as 50 different species of microbes in the soil. Scientists could grow about a dozen in the labs so they extrapolated and guessed that there must be at least 50. During the 90s the cost of DNA analysis was dropping and finally they could analyze dirt. It was then discovered that there was DNA from 35,000 different (unknown) species of microbes. In the early part of this century a refined DNA analysis discovered 100,000 distinct species. The reason recent science seems lacking is the scientists are overwhelmed with the possibilities of what all these microbes are doing.

Why is that common sense cutural practices are preached as organic. Do those that use synthetic not understand and implement proper watering, proper mowing etc? Are these not methods that transcend one or the other? I agree with you although in the interest of giving them the benefit of the doubt, they might have been talking about general good practices in an organic seminar because if you don't do the proper watering and mowing, it almost doesn't matter what fertilizer you use.

Do a good number of you still use "Silent Spring" to attack synthetics? I am tired of hearing quotes out of this book, it too is old and based on old technology out at the time. No. I have not heard Silent Spring invoked since the 70s. If you don't know, Silent Spring was Rachel Carson's eye opening book about how decades of DDT use had softened the eggs of song birds. The birds weight crushes the eggs so the spring would be silent.

Most assume that all synthetic applicators continue to use 2-4d and that it causes cancer....has that not been debunked? Do we still need to compare to agent orange?? Scare tactics dont win me over either. The first research on Agent Orange was so flawed that it increased the scrutiny on the whole topic. It may really be a problem - we'll probably be long gone before it's sorted out. Still, scare tactics are a sleazy way to gain support.

It was presented that bio=life and cide=death so it is assumed that you can put them together and get biocide, or the killing of life. Just seems like a leap to me when there are organic products out there that are EPA registered as a "cide" and some that can be equally dangerous as any synthetic out there. But it is only the synthetic that are characterized as "biocides" Just because there are toxic materials in the organic catalog does not mean Mr Osborne was recommending them. His methods and materials may be far to the safe side of that catalog.

Why does it seem like a lot of opinion being presented as fact, or pictures being shown that dont give the entire background of what was done, just a before and after picture. That's called marketing. You're free to invent your own for your business. You are also free to discount the information you were given based on your perceptions.

Is it standard practice to overseed in the spring with "contractor's seed" which contains annual, intermediate and perrenial seed? Would this not cause for a patchy/poor lawn that now has what I would consider weed grasses in it? This was presented as good practice. That is not standard for home owners, but if you are trying to make a sports field, worn out by winter sports, ready for summer, it might be necessary. Using a mix of grass seed helps to ensure the success of at least some grasses.

I know that there is no "cookie cutter" program but how do you set up something for the customer to get a budget, I cant continually go back and say "well this area is going to take a bit more work, it will cost another x" like was suggested. Most customers around here will be understanding to a point but it is still NY. How do you do it for a chemical program?

How do you manage a sand based athletic field when it was flat out said organics wont work in this situation. Sounds like crazy talk to me. Did he mention what the impossible problems were?

I have more, but I dont want to continue writing a book. I hope does not come across wrong, I just want some help understanding. I am on an organic program firstly because it works and secondly because I'm cheap and lazy. Finding materials that work is easy. The biggest problem with professionals implementing a program is you are stuck using materials that are approved by your state. You are not allowed to go to the feed store and get a brown bag of corn meal for a client because it is not labeled as a fungicide or fertilizer. I have to agree with the intent of this being to keep the fly-by-night operator from buying a bag of worthless corn cobs and applying those. Someone needs to revise the list of approved items with organics in mind. If a bag of organic fertilizer is 90% ground corn, why can't you use corn from a non fertilizer bag but with a guaranteed analysis of 100% corn meal? They will never understand that NPK is a meaningless measure in organic fertilizer. Food value is what matters.

[Smallaxe]

Are we sure that Robtown wasn't just mocking and expounding on the elitest attitude? I looked at it as a joke.

James,
Austrailia, dropped the mandatory innoculation for babies, and the numbers dropped 50%. The other number that dropped was new autism cases. It too dropped 50%. Another correlation with that is SIDS. Usually within 2 or 3 days. We had a nieghbor who lost a baby to SIDS and the gov't went after them for Shaken Baby Syndrome.

[ICT Bill]

I'll take a stab at this, since I was at that conference and listened to Chip.

One of the major points you should have come away with is "a systems approach". The point he was trying to make is to look more closely at your practices and understand what the sites need. Rather than taking a one size fits all approach, some sites need more work than others and it should be reflected in your approach.
soil organic matter may be fine (5 to 7%) on one side of town and sand based sports fields may need something all together different. Below is 15 acres of sports turf that have gone organic last year, stunning results from a complete synthetic program for many many years. Give us a call if you are interested in how the program was implemented

Don't sign on to the radical "the sky is falling" mentality, it is true with any group you associate yourself with. Hang out here and read read read, a mind is a terrible thing to waste. Do not let the ideas of other turn you off, think for your self.
Chip Is a great resource and has many years of experience, his talks change almost every time so next time you see him speaking go get some more nuggets and think them over

[Smallaxe]

I'm not going to quote, just comment on the athletic field briefly. The possibility that an "organic" approach could cause watering problems could be "valid" if that was the only change that was made. Increases in organic matter will slow the infiltration rate of the sand, BUT a well designed athletic field, with an increased organic matter content is going TO USE LESS WATER, so the irrigation system will need to be managed as well. If the irrigation system is managed to accommodate the improved soil, the savings in water, chemicals, and fertilizer will out weigh the potential loss of infiltration of the soil profile. Cycle and soak irrigation cycles will be beneficial, but they probably should have been in place already. The only possible threat here is if your field is in an area where rainfall could actually flood the field, but again, if the field was designed properly from the start, I cannot see this as a real problem.

These are the kind of posts that do the most , to make sense of nutrient availability and the value of organic matter, i.e., the STRUCTURE, of the soil.

Many things take care of themselves when the water is reasonable. Even more important than nutrient balance, IMHO. :)

[ICT Bill]

These are the kind of posts that do the most , to make sense of nutrient availability and the value of organic matter, i.e., the STRUCTURE, of the soil.

Many things take care of themselves when the water is reasonable. Even more important than nutrient balance, IMHO. :)

In central WI you always have water available

I agree with the structure statement, often that is not the case when taking over a property. As Kiril would say yeah yeah yeah "compost"
It does a soil good

[Smallaxe]

That's right, we do.

So we overwater, then add N, then we overwater some more. And desparately await out next N. If the sun gets hot we double overwatering because the roots are 1/2 deep by this time.

Where is all these chemicals coming from? They are in our lakes and streams? We need a University Study grant for a solution - Ban this then ban that. Afterwards, ban this and that.

[robtown]

I honestly did not think that anyone in here would not see it for what it was.
A joke.
The irony was rediculus.
We could afford to lighten up a little and not take ourselves so seriosly some times.
I here it at every class i take not to come off as some organic whako ....now i know why it is stressed so much.
You help where you can ...try to put people on the path recommend some reading and let them choose.
good luck

[Smallaxe]

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

I thot so...

[turf hokie]

I honestly did not think that anyone in here would not see it for what it was.
A joke.
The irony was rediculus.
We could afford to lighten up a little and not take ourselves so seriosly some times.
I here it at every class i take not to come off as some organic whako ....now i know why it is stressed so much.
You help where you can ...try to put people on the path recommend some reading and let them choose.
good luck

I took it at face value....

But as far as being careful about being a wacko....I tend to agree with that in a broad sense. I see no problem in being adamant about your beliefs, what I see as a problem, especially with me, is that I am wanting to learn, I agree with all the benefits, yet when I am around these "wackos" or people that believe that synthetics are bad right down to their core, I feel as though there is no room for a slow change or even the ability for them to sit down and explain their position or how I can find a middle ground while I learn. It is or it isnt and if it isnt then they attack. (Wow that was a run on sentence)

I adamantly disagree with something being thrust down my throat when I am able and showing my willingness to use organics. This is especially true when it comes to the laws that are being passed. It seems that the laws always target those that are trying to do the right thing, are educated but are visible whether it be organic or synthetic. I always and will always say that the most harm comes from those that dont care about anything but the dollar in their pocket at the end of the day. Yes, that is important but I do what I do because of many other reasons as well.

Why does NY spend time and come audit my office etc to make sure of things like my contract being in 12 point type. Yet on any given day during the spring I see hundreds of pounds of chemicals being put down by unlicensed people. They dont have the man power to root out these people but can come to my office to look at my paperwork. This is a bigger cause of run off, misapplications etc. (off topic but a bigger problem than just synthetics)

Thank you all for you input and clarity. I enjoy the back and forth conversations on here because they bring valid points and I learn.

ICT Bill I will give you a call shortly, had snow today, not what they told us but it still messed up my day.

[phasthound]

I took it at face value....

But as far as being careful about being a wacko....I tend to agree with that in a broad sense. I see no problem in being adamant about your beliefs, what I see as a problem, especially with me, is that I am wanting to learn, I agree with all the benefits, yet when I am around these "wackos" or people that believe that synthetics are bad right down to their core, I feel as though there is no room for a slow change or even the ability for them to sit down and explain their position or how I can find a middle ground while I learn. It is or it isnt and if it isnt then they attack. (Wow that was a run on sentence)

I adamantly disagree with something being thrust down my throat when I am able and showing my willingness to use organics. This is especially true when it comes to the laws that are being passed. It seems that the laws always target those that are trying to do the right thing, are educated but are visible whether it be organic or synthetic. I always and will always say that the most harm comes from those that dont care about anything but the dollar in their pocket at the end of the day. Yes, that is important but I do what I do because of many other reasons as well.

Why does NY spend time and come audit my office etc to make sure of things like my contract being in 12 point type. Yet on any given day during the spring I see hundreds of pounds of chemicals being put down by unlicensed people. They dont have the man power to root out these people but can come to my office to look at my paperwork. This is a bigger cause of run off, misapplications etc. (off topic but a bigger problem than just synthetics)

Thank you all for you input and clarity. I enjoy the back and forth conversations on here because they bring valid points and I learn.

ICT Bill I will give you a call shortly, had snow today, not what they told us but it still messed up my day.

You are so on target!

I agree that the NOFA folks can go too far in their quest to be "pure". It's unfortunate because they can alienate people like you and me. I know several of them and greatly admire the work they are doing. They are very helpful in sharing their knowledge and experiences in the field.

I have been inspected several times by the NJDEP and the focus of the inspections have been on paperwork and pesticide storage. Because of budget constraints, the field work is left to County Health Dept. This experience has been good with the NJDEP, I understand the importance of good record keeping and protecting pesticides from the public. The County Health Depts don't have a clue.

But, I do strongly believe that it is every landscapers responsibility to provide the public with beautiful, healthy areas to commune with one's soul without having to worry about undo pesticide exposure. The industry has to learn how to reduce the excessive amounts that are routinely applied.

I applaud you for making the decision to look into proceeding on this path.

[Tim Wilson]

Sorry, I'm probably going off topic in this thread and may bring it back on topic later but in reading through it, I noted the above statement. First E-bola is a monkey transmitted hemorragic disease so I believe you mean E-coli. Secondly, I believe these outbreaks occurred from improperly managed Traditional farming techniques and not organic methods. I believe what you are perpetuating originates from a rumor started on a forum like this one. The outbreak was caused to the best of my knowledge, by traditional growing next to a cattle operation, stupid as it sounds. Just because a company is called 'natural spinach' or some such thing does not mean they are indeed growing naturally.

[treegal1]

Sorry, I'm probably going off topic in this thread and may bring it back on topic later but in reading through it, I noted the above statement. First E-bola is a monkey transmitted hemorragic disease so I believe you mean E-coli. Secondly, I believe these outbreaks occurred from improperly managed Traditional farming techniques and not organic methods. I believe what you are perpetuating originates from a rumor started on a forum like this one. The outbreak was caused to the best of my knowledge, by traditional growing next to a cattle operation, stupid as it sounds. Just because a company is called 'natural spinach' or some such thing does not mean they are indeed growing naturally. oh thank god you fielded that one Tim. hope you are well. i am so beat that i just need to lurk till..................... yep pics soon..............

[JDUtah]

oh thank god you fielded that one Tim. hope you are well. i am so beat that i just need to lurk till..................... yep pics soon..............

tree... you still have my interest. :) I look forward to the pics.

[robtown]

I try to read as much reasearch as i can and formulate my own opinion.
teaming with microbes was a good start for me.
It takes the time to break down the soil and what is going on.
once you understand that the rest falls into place.
ask yourself if what your are putting down is helping or hurting the soil, and do what you think is right.
Just because it is organic doesnt make it right.
Bad tea bad compost poor application...there is still alot that can go wrong.
Organicly there is no watch dog....none.
It is up to you to spend the money on testing or getting trained on doing your own testing.
Some people think they just start composting the grass clippings...make some compost tea and start spaying.
There is no cheap way to do this.
There is no read the bag pour it in a spreader and run around the lawn.
Organicly taking care of a lawn is alot harder.
I believe the people that are good at doing it have done a ton of reading and research on it and spent alot of time and money.
You cant expect them to hand you the keys to the kingdom so you can expand your earnings.
good luck
to make life easier for the people that are interested in going organic the should come up with a required reading list and sticky it.

[treegal1]

dude your so wrong on so many things..........

[bicmudpuppy]

This is why, in golf circles, every time a conversation about organics comes up, someone makes a crack that sounds like "voodoo", or "black magic", or "crazed cult", etc. Without a PhD in micro biology and a Masters in organic chemistry, you just can't do "organic".

[Kiril]

dude your so wrong on so many things..........

........ I agree.

[Smallaxe]

I try to read as much reasearch as i can and formulate my own opinion.
teaming with microbes was a good start for me.
It takes the time to break down the soil and what is going on.
once you understand that the rest falls into place.
ask yourself if what your are putting down is helping or hurting the soil, and do what you think is right.
Just because it is organic doesnt make it right.
Bad tea bad compost poor application...there is still alot that can go wrong.
Organicly there is no watch dog....none.
It is up to you to spend the money on testing or getting trained on doing your own testing.
Some people think they just start composting the grass clippings...make some compost tea and start spaying.
There is no cheap way to do this.
There is no read the bag pour it in a spreader and run around the lawn.
Organicly taking care of a lawn is alot harder.
I believe the people that are good at doing it have done a ton of reading and research on it and spent alot of time and money.
You cant expect them to hand you the keys to the kingdom so you can expand your earnings.
good luck
to make life easier for the people that are interested in going organic the should come up with a required reading list and sticky it.

It really boils down to "Water perculation and retention" and "Nutrient Availability [CEC]".
No lots of time and money for that. :)

The staus quo has soluable ferts applied excessively with excess water with sits on the surface and encourages root growth there. That is called thatch.
Stab a spade into the lawn to determine if your rhizospere is in the soil or above the soil, or some wierd combination of the 2.

Often times - less reading and more thinking - does better than the other way around. Too much confusing redundancy is being put into written form. :)

[Tim Wilson]

Without a PhD in micro biology and a Masters in organic chemistry, you just can't do "organic".


All those backwoods folks, small family farms and people in third world countries growing their own food since before chemical fertilizers were even conceived have it all wrong?

[Kiril]

All those backwoods folks, small family farms and people in third world countries growing their own food since before chemical fertilizers were even conceived have it all wrong?

I believe that was a TIC comment. ;)

[bicmudpuppy]

Post 31
I try to read as much reasearch as i can and formulate my own opinion.
teaming with microbes was a good start for me.
It takes the time to break down the soil and what is going on.
once you understand that the rest falls into place.
ask yourself if what your are putting down is helping or hurting the soil, and do what you think is right.
Just because it is organic doesnt make it right.
Bad tea bad compost poor application...there is still alot that can go wrong.
Organicly there is no watch dog....none.
It is up to you to spend the money on testing or getting trained on doing your own testing.
Some people think they just start composting the grass clippings...make some compost tea and start spaying.
There is no cheap way to do this.
There is no read the bag pour it in a spreader and run around the lawn.
Organicly taking care of a lawn is alot harder.
I believe the people that are good at doing it have done a ton of reading and research on it and spent alot of time and money.
You cant expect them to hand you the keys to the kingdom so you can expand your earnings.
good luck
to make life easier for the people that are interested in going organic the should come up with a required reading list and sticky it.
Post 33
This is why, in golf circles, every time a conversation about organics comes up, someone makes a crack that sounds like "voodoo", or "black magic", or "crazed cult", etc. Without a PhD in micro biology and a Masters in organic chemistry, you just can't do "organic".

All those backwoods folks, small family farms and people in third world countries growing their own food since before chemical fertilizers were even conceived have it all wrong?

And a beautiful job of making sure you took the quote completely out of context. I am new enough here in the organics to not know which are those who "miss" things like this and who the trolls are who are just looking to pick a fight.

Do all those "little" farmers and third world countries do the "required reading list" first too?

[treegal1]

i think Tim's post was in response to wacko post # 31, but hey even he has an opinion........

[bicmudpuppy]

Benefit of the doubt and I hope your right. I know I'm on the "sensitive" side these days. Spring isn't "really" here yet, but the "can't fix stooopid" factor is really starting to drag me down. My 'scope should be here this week. The two stage continuous duty vac motor I pulled of E-bay should ship tomorrow. (Not a regen, and the model number is obsolete, but the closest numbers from the company that made it put it near 100" of water for pressure. 3.5amps and 240V single phase) And I find myself closer and closer to throwing in the towel and telling a GM he can ...................yeah, fill in the blank. Other thoughts run through my mind too. End results is 3 hots and a cot :) Just very little "freedom".

[Smallaxe]

NM would be a snowbird spot for Wisconsinites. What do you mean no spring there yet? You in the mountains?

[bicmudpuppy]

NM would be a snowbird spot for Wisconsinites. What do you mean no spring there yet? You in the mountains?

Yes, I'm in the far NW corner. What they call the "four corners region". I am 12 miles from the CO line and about 30 from AZ. We haven't made the trip to see the actual Four Corners Plate where you can stand and be in UT, AZ, NM, and CO all at the same time, but it is only about 45 minutes away.

The house just misses being at 6000' elevation, and the golf course is at about 5500.

They still have LOTS of snow just 30-35 miles north of me in Durango, CO. Two resorts on the north side of Durango that are still measuring there snow in feet :)

[Smallaxe]

Changed my mind about wintering in NM. :laugh:
Just 2000 ft in the tropics makes a difference, wouldn't know how to deal with 6000 in the temperate zones.
I always think Alberquerque , when I think of NM.

[Tim Wilson]

And a beautiful job of making sure you took the quote completely out of context. I am new enough here in the organics to not know which are those who "miss" things like this and who the trolls are who are just looking to pick a fight.

Do all those "little" farmers and third world countries do the "required reading list" first too?


Bicmudpuppy; or noname,

I was under the impression that your statement which I quoted was not presented sarcastically, however I may indeed have misread, as I believe Kiril has pointed out.

My point does still stand that many thousands of people have for hundreds of years and still do grow naturally or organically in an uncomplicated fashion. This has been done without the aid of books and microscopes. My point is that one can pursue this endeavor with or without all the background detailed knowledge. Some just do what Grampa did. The Terra Preta beds in South America are a prime example of this, almost unmatched in fertility, developed by 'primitive' aboriginals. Soil scientists are still trying to figure out what they did.

I assure you, I am not a troll and was not trying to attack but to make a point albeit in sarcastic tone.

What sort of microscope are you getting? Drop me an email through my website if you need some help setting up.

Salutations,
Tim Wilson

[Smallaxe]

...My point does still stand that many thousands of people have for hundreds of years and still do grow naturally or organically in an uncomplicated fashion. This has been done without the aid of books and microscopes. My point is that one can pursue this endeavor with or without all the background detailed knowledge. Some just do what Grampa did. The Terra Preta beds in South America are a prime example of this, almost unmatched in fertility, developed by 'primitive' aboriginals. Soil scientists are still trying to figure out what they did. ...

And growing grass is the simplest thing in the world. :) [not sarcastic, BTW]

May I add, that "grandpa" as you referenced was able to grow potatoes that taste good. Raw potatoes from the field are bitter enough to taste the chemicals or something. Still like the commercial raw carrots though.

[bicmudpuppy]

And growing grass is the simplest thing in the world. :) [not sarcastic, BTW]


No argument from me. Millions of Americans have grass in what they call a "lawn" all over the country. I manage turf. The grass grows. Some have more "luck" with producing turf of a particular quality than others. I consider myself to be "adequate" at what I do.

[bicmudpuppy]

My point does still stand that many thousands of people have for hundreds of years and still do grow naturally or organically in an uncomplicated fashion. This has been done without the aid of books and microscopes. My point is that one can pursue this endeavor with or without all the background detailed knowledge. Some just do what Grampa did. The Terra Preta beds in South America are a prime example of this, almost unmatched in fertility, developed by 'primitive' aboriginals. Soil scientists are still trying to figure out what they did.
I'm just "sensitive" these days. I would say its in the air, but TG seems to have a dose as well and it can't be the same air. I "learned" much of what I know, not at college, but from an old timer who I am sure forgot more than I will ever know. To hear him talk about PUSH mowing golf greens and mowing fairways w/ horses is not something I can relate with the true nostalgia that went with it. That course always had some kind of wild trials going on somewhere. I learned a love of kelp/sea weed from that man. Much of what we did that worked back then, we did just because it worked. The "science" behind much of those same practices now did not yet exist. The tee box closest to the maintenance shed was a zoysia trial. It might have only been six varieties, or even three, but something about nine still sticks in my head. Maybe it was 3 plots of 3 varieties, or maybe there really were nine varieties of z. japonica, but that tee would have been planted in the late seventies. My freshman year at Manhattan, I was the zoysia "expert" because I was involved in the 16 A strip sodding of the fairways on that 18 hole course. I remember using Milorganite like it was the magic bullet for years, then the price point on it took a turn that made it prohibitive. The guys from that era who took the chance to experiment and combined it with the knowledge of "what works" made my profession what it should be. The universities turn out "spray and pray" professionals in droves, and we are just beginning to see how detrimental that philosophy truly is. We have a magic elixir for this, and one for that, and then we create a new one to "fix" what the first to caused. Getting back to basic, sound agronomic practices just makes good sense. You can call it a "bridge" or a modified organic approach, but good stewardship works.

I assure you, I am not a troll and was not trying to attack but to make a point albeit in sarcastic tone.

What sort of microscope are you getting? Drop me an email through my website if you need some help setting up.

Salutations,
Tim Wilson
Try and forget I made the troll comment. I rant even more in my head than what I post. Mowed greens yesterday (first time for ME this year), the worst part of being on a machine for me is the "think time" that goes with it. My attitude improves if I'm to busy to "think" about a lot of "things".

Scope that is coming is just a cheapo off of e-bay. A "student" model kit, but 1200x at the higher objective.

[Smallaxe]

... The universities turn out "spray and pray" professionals in droves, and we are just beginning to see how detrimental that philosophy truly is. We have a magic elixir for this, and one for that, and then we create a new one to "fix" what the first to caused. Getting back to basic, sound agronomic practices just makes good sense. You can call it a "bridge" or a modified organic approach, but good stewardship works. ...

Thank you for the observation. We worship 'education' in this culture no matter how illogical that 'education' is.
Working with a student that should graduate, with Hort Degree, after one more full semester. She hasn't heard - word one about soil structure and CEC , even at its most rudimentary level. Organics and OM? Forget it.

BTW, I chose this career so I had mostly 'think time'. :) If it depresses me I think about Reality. That usually cheers me up. :laugh:

[Prolawnservice]

Getting back to basic, sound agronomic practices just makes good sense. You can call it a "bridge" or a modified organic approach, but good stewardship works.

Amen brother!:cool2:

[phasthound]

Amen brother!:cool2:

Dude, I was just about to post the same words! :clapping: