PDA

View Full Version : Could someone please answer this paver over concrete question?


bigboar
02-28-2009, 11:05 PM
Hi all,
I have a concrete patio that is 12x16 and is pinned to the foundation of my home. I would like to do a 16x20 paver patio that would cover the entire old slab and extend out 4' on each side. Can I leave the existing and compact base for the rest up to the existing concrete and then lay fabric, 1" of sand and then the pavers? or could I have problems doing this? please take it easy on me as I have just started thinking about this project and would like to do it in the spring. I am in southwestern ohio and have freeze/thaw cycles if it makes a difference. thanks for any help in advance.

PlatinumLandCon
02-28-2009, 11:10 PM
I don't see any issue with that as long as the slab is in good shape.

STL Ponds and Waterfalls
02-28-2009, 11:29 PM
Take a little more time compacting along the edges of the concrete as this tends to be harder to get good total compaction along existing slabs. Also use fabric under your base and over lap the fabric over your concrete for extra insurance.

bigboar
02-28-2009, 11:37 PM
great... thanks for the replies...

KCLandscape
02-28-2009, 11:48 PM
I wouldn't do it that way, unless you want to redo it.

STL Ponds and Waterfalls
02-28-2009, 11:57 PM
I wouldn't do it that way, unless you want to redo it.

KC, what way would you do it??? LOL! Jerry and his trusty black T and sweats. Cool avatar.

KCLandscape
03-01-2009, 12:14 AM
Rip out and do it the right way. Short cuts=crappy results
Gotta love Jerry!

Bru75
03-01-2009, 12:35 AM
I think the term is "disproportionate settlement". When the gravel base settles and the concrete doesn't.
How about pouring concrete to extend the existing patio, and then cover the whole thing with pavers? Just be sure to drill into the sides of the slab and insert rebar to tie in with the new extensions, and to drill drainage holes through the slab if your border course will be glued or mortared.

bigboar
03-01-2009, 12:48 AM
well how about another course of action? has anyone seen a patio done that was concrete and extended with pavers? I am thinking it would probably look weird..

Bru75
03-01-2009, 01:04 AM
well how about another course of action? has anyone seen a patio done that was concrete and extended with pavers? I am thinking it would probably look weird..
I've done it before, where cost of removing the slab was an issue. Some might think it looks weird, but the owner was happy.
I thought you wanted to cover the existing slab?

bigboar
03-01-2009, 01:08 AM
I do want to cover the existing, but dont want to have to add more slab either. I wish i would have thought more about it as the house was just finished 2 months ago and I should have just took the credit for the back patio. I was just hoping i could go right over the existing and not have problems. I dont really want to rip out the existing either as I remember it being pinned to the foundation and also quite a bit of rebar in it..

Bru75
03-01-2009, 01:16 AM
Makes sense to me. I think you would probably be ok to follow your original plan, since this is at your own home. If it ever does settle nobody is going to call and cuss you, except maybe your wife.

Chilehead
03-01-2009, 01:23 AM
I think the term is "disproportionate settlement". When the gravel base settles and the concrete doesn't.
How about pouring concrete to extend the existing patio, and then cover the whole thing with pavers? Just be sure to drill into the sides of the slab and insert rebar to tie in with the new extensions, and to drill drainage holes through the slab if your border course will be glued or mortared.

Of all the responses, this one is the most sound--good balance of structural integrity and uniformity. Best choice economically, too (especially in the long term).:drinkup:

denver 2
03-01-2009, 09:23 AM
Another option is to leave the patio except cut a 6x6 foot inset and lay a decorative panel with pavers and then add the paver extention beyond patio. That way the patio looks like it was planned and you can stick with the same grade and save money. We could use some pictures of your patio to give you a better idea of what to do.

zedosix
03-01-2009, 11:29 AM
You'll be fine doing it the way you asked BB but don't be surprised if in the future you may have to lift a row or two or pavers up against the slab. Take your time to compact very well and don't forget to leave the brick up a bit higher along the edge of the concrete to compensate for compacting. When we do our projects around pools we always ask for a concrete slab poured at grade minus 3" and lay our brick right over the concrete and extending out into the patio area. We've been doing it this way for years and to now, no problems. Just remember you need to compact extremely well at the transition of concrete and granular base.

Not to dissagree with BRU but not everyone has the time, and money to take it to that level.

Rex Mann
03-01-2009, 12:09 PM
You should use a geo-textile over the slab. This will prevent
the migration of bedding sand should the slab ever crack/heave.
Along the edge of your slab over your aggregate I would precompact my bedding sand with a small hand tamper. This is the only time I would precompact the bedding sand. If not going to precompact that section then do what Zero said: leave them higher against the concrete. Remember, it is easier to tamp them down, then lift them up.

Peace,

Rex

http://PaversInstalled.Com

bigboar
03-01-2009, 12:49 PM
ok, thanks for all the help...

Summit L & D
03-01-2009, 03:18 PM
You could also use flowable fill. That should mitigate any residual settling. I would still compact the sub grade really well.

neighborguy
03-01-2009, 04:31 PM
I just want to make sure I am understanding a few things:

1. The patio was just put in two months ago.

2. There will only be 1" of sand between the concrete patio and the new pavers?

If that is the case; my thought is that with the freeze/thaw cycles (I am assuming they are probably similar to what we have here in Southern Wisconsin), your best bet to avoid any problems would be to cut the concrete slab out and do the whole thing right.

Concrete will crack and heave. I don't think anyone will argue with me. When it does that 1" of sand will not do anything to protect the paver surface from mimicking the cracks. Do you know for certain what type of base was used under the concrete and was it compacted properly?

As a compromise due to budget I like the idea of the inlay and a border. But to do it right I would remove the slab.

My 2 cents.

PlatinumLandCon
03-01-2009, 05:37 PM
I think you guys are talking about some serious cracks. There's only 1" of sand, compacted, so it won't make a huge issue of sand going in a crack.

For the 10+ years you'll get out of the patio, I would super compact the gravel aound like zedosix said, and go to town. The cracks and all that are a little extreme IMO

ford550
03-01-2009, 06:43 PM
Rip out and do it the right way. Short cuts=crappy results

Right on.

For the time you are going to waste trying for good compaction, pussy footing around the existing slab, it would just be easier to rip the darn thing out IMO. If it was just put in it's probably only 4" with 4" of stone if your lucky. Construction now a days sucks. Put a hammer on a mini ex, break it up, recycle the concrete and start over. Your base on your pavers will likely be deeper than the existing concrete, makes for a week installation next too eachother.

Good luck.

zedosix
03-01-2009, 06:52 PM
Right on.

For the time you are going to waste trying for good compaction, pussy footing around the existing slab, it would just be easier to rip the darn thing out IMO. If it was just put in it's probably only 4" with 4" of stone if your lucky. Construction now a days sucks. Put a hammer on a mini ex, break it up, recycle the concrete and start over. Your base on your pavers will likely be deeper than the existing concrete, makes for a week installation next too eachother.

Good luck.

Its for himself, why would he remove a concrete slab on new construction and then have to deal with an overdig situation near the foundation. You guys are making way too much out of this seemingly straightforward job. Removing the concrete is overkill imo.

Bru75
03-01-2009, 08:20 PM
You all make good points, and are correct if he were doing this job for hire.
Since this is at his own house, I think his original plan would give him satisfactory results.
If he has problems in the future, he can pull up the pavers, tear out the slab and rebuild on a gravel base.

bigboar
03-01-2009, 09:32 PM
Thanks for all the replies.. I have another idea I thought of today. It might be a dumb idea though! What if I built a higher tier over the existing and then it stepped down to a lower tier where the existing ends? I have about 10" of foundation shoing from the top of the pad to the brick. I have about 23" from the top of the pad to the top of the wood steps that were put in. So basically i was thinking I could do something in a two tier design with a rectangular(12x16) top tier and then a curving slightly lower tier with possibly having a wall around the edge of the lower section.

zedosix
03-01-2009, 09:40 PM
Thanks for all the replies.. I have another idea I thought of today. It might be a dumb idea though! What if I built a higher tier over the existing and then it stepped down to a lower tier where the existing ends? I have about 10" of foundation shoing from the top of the pad to the brick. I have about 23" from the top of the pad to the top of the wood steps that were put in. So basically i was thinking I could do something in a two tier design with a rectangular(12x16) top tier and then a curving slightly lower tier with possibly having a wall around the edge of the lower section.

Pictures would of helped tremondously here. I would of suggested exactly that if you had some elevation to deal with. Great idea! You've essentially created a perfect breaking point and made the top platform completely independant of the lower level. Bravo!

kootoomootoo
03-01-2009, 10:05 PM
I am curious why so many guys are scared of concrete. Form up the new areas and pour concrete...overlay with pavers.

KCLandscape
03-01-2009, 10:11 PM
Not afraid, but concrete is overkill for a base.
Pics would be nice. I do like the latest suggestion.

bigboar
03-01-2009, 10:33 PM
ok, I will get some pics and upload them, I will put them on tomorrow sometime.... thanks again for all the help!!!

PlatinumLandCon
03-01-2009, 11:03 PM
Not afraid, but concrete is overkill for a base.
Pics would be nice. I do like the latest suggestion.

If he already has 80% of the concrete down, I don't see an issue with throwing down the extra 4' around. PLUS its new construction, so who knows what the soil is like.

bigboar
03-05-2009, 07:50 PM
sorry it took me so long but here are the pics. I dont know if it would help with what you all theink i should pick color wise for my pavers so I am including a photo of the front of the house and would appreciate some recommendations. The final grade is not finished yet(friend is doing it once the weather breaks). Thanks again all!

mcclureandson
03-05-2009, 10:02 PM
1) Rip out those useless decks/landings

2) Crack up the concrete (pretty sure you could leave in place - others may not agree...

3) Construct perimeter garden wall w/step or two into backyard

4) Fill interior (flowable or standard base)

5) Construct raised paver patio

Curious what others more experienced might think...I've only got several dozen hardscapes under my belt.

Bru75
03-06-2009, 12:17 AM
Nice house, Boar!
Now that I see it, I would say to build the patio at the level of the foundation/brick line, with landings and steps as needed at the doors. I think you should get rid of the concrete, though. You could bury the slab under your compacted gravel, but I think you would have settlement issues later. I have seen a lot of concrete patios in new construction settle next to the house because of a lack of compaction in the backfill.
Be sure to dig deep next to the house, as the backfill was not likely compacted enough to build on, and then backfill with compacted gravel in layers.
Hope this helps.

STL Ponds and Waterfalls
03-06-2009, 01:14 AM
Are you set on Pavers? Extend the concrete and use a natural stone overlay with some nice stone steps.

steve5966
03-07-2009, 01:16 AM
Your house was completed two months ago, in the winter time. First thing you need to do is wait. You will have settling, maybe even big spaces under the concrete. I would spend most of the summer enjoying the little usable space that you builder gave you. How much do the steps cover, 25%? Some guys think it's fine to lay over concrete, but when you do that you transfer concretes biggest problem to the pavers. When concrete cracks and heaves, you have to replace the concrete. If pavers move for any reason you can fix that section with no sign of ever doing it. If you put pavers over concrete you will have to remove both to make the repair.
In my opinion, the concrete has to go. Just my opinion though, I try not to do things twice.
Search on here for seat walls and see if thats something you would like. Maybe expand your patio area to include a fire feature. You have a blank canvas there and you can do it all or just a little. Just take your time and do it right.

riverwalklandscaping
03-07-2009, 12:24 PM
I'd rip off those ugly wooden steps and build a retainingwall that brought whole patio up to the level of those doors in the back. I'd then have steps down to the regular grade and a patio at that level. It looks terrible the way it is now no offense but it looks like someone screwed up and put some wooden steps in to try to fix it.. especially with the random outcroppings hanging in the air like that

zedosix
03-07-2009, 05:18 PM
I'd rip off those ugly wooden steps and build a retainingwall that brought whole patio up to the level of those doors in the back. I'd then have steps down to the regular grade and a patio at that level. It looks terrible the way it is now no offense but it looks like someone screwed up and put some wooden steps in to try to fix it.. especially with the random outcroppings hanging in the air like that

That'll cost a fortune to do that. Why bother raising everything and having to build walls and all that compacting. Unless you have more money than brains I guess it would be alright.
Someone had it right, just live with it for a year or two and then rip it out and go to town. At least you can compact the base properly and not have to worry about settling for a while. What is the earth there, is it clay or sandy loam.

riverwalklandscaping
03-07-2009, 06:27 PM
Well if one is doing it themself and therefor has nothing but material cost it would not be nearly as expensive. If I couldn't afford it I wouldn't do anything and I'd do it when I could afford it.

bigboar
03-07-2009, 09:07 PM
actually those stupid wood landings were required by code for a dumb 3x3 platform when you walk out the doors. at least my builder made them so i can remove the steps from the platform and then reattach the steps only which will save alot of room until i decide what i want to do for sure. some building codes are so stupid!! Those are getting removed tomorrow if it doesnt rain here..

cudaclan
03-08-2009, 12:09 AM
Architecturally, those steps in close proximity look unattractive. Leave the concrete in place and use it as a pad for a deck. Remove the two steps so that the deck is uniform to the entrances to the house. You will then have better options for landscaping/hardscaping.

KCLandscape
03-08-2009, 12:16 AM
Like that! Deck the two doorways together then step it down to a paver/sitting area of whatever size. Sitting walls would be a nice addition. Fire pit?

bigboar
03-08-2009, 12:21 AM
that is sounding good.... any possibilities of some design ideas for it? I would love to have a fire pit