Help Lime?

[humble1]

I use pelletized lime. The problem is that it also has mg. Weeds like Mg. Weeds dont like high calcium grass does, so in theory if you have a high enough calcium and low mg mosts weeds wont grow well. So what is calcitic lime?

Where can i get lime that is not high in mg?

I already know about soil fertility and aeration helping aleviate weed proliferation.

[Prolawnservice]

The same supplier you get your dolomite from should be able to supply you with calcite or hi cal lime. However, I would get a soil test first and not just randomly apply.

[muddstopper]

I use pelletized lime. The problem is that it also has mg. Weeds like Mg. Weeds dont like high calcium grass does, so in theory if you have a high enough calcium and low mg mosts weeds wont grow well. So what is calcitic lime?



Weeds also like calcium and grass also like magnesium. Adequate amounts in proper balance. Adding calcitic lime just to lower magnesium levels only works if your magnesium levels are truely high already. Many factors determine proper mg levels, notabily saturation levels of the nutrient and the Cation Exchange Capacity, (CEC), of the soil. Determing how many lbs you have of a nutrient doesnt tell you whether or not you have to much or to little of the nutrient. It will only tell you how much is needed to get to the proper saturation level and correct ratios. The higher the CEC of the soil, the more lbs of nutrient that are needed to be available to the plants.

[Smallaxe]

Weeds also like calcium and grass also like magnesium. Adequate amounts in proper balance. Adding calcitic lime just to lower magnesium levels only works if your magnesium levels are truely high already. Many factors determine proper mg levels, notabily saturation levels of the nutrient and the Cation Exchange Capacity, (CEC), of the soil. Determing how many lbs you have of a nutrient doesnt tell you whether or not you have to much or to little of the nutrient. It will only tell you how much is needed to get to the proper saturation level and correct ratios. The higher the CEC of the soil, the more lbs of nutrient that are needed to be available to the plants.

I was hoping Mudd would jump in here.

He was explaining the soil chemistry of Mg/Ca during my study of Terra Preta.
I had remembered reading that in TP the exact same ratio was found, while he was posting. Thanks, BTW.

Soil chemistry is interesting enough , but still - too many variables at this point. When we know enough to rule out some pertinent questions, and learn something new about it -- It will be even more interesting.
[We still don't know why TP is so extraordinary. :) ]

[phasthound]

I use pelletized lime. The problem is that it also has mg. Weeds like Mg. Weeds dont like high calcium grass does, so in theory if you have a high enough calcium and low mg mosts weeds wont grow well. So what is calcitic lime?

Where can i get lime that is not high in mg?

I already know about soil fertility and aeration helping aleviate weed proliferation.

We ship Hi-Cal Lime with Soluble Humates by the pallet.
Recommended application rate 5lb/1000.

[Kiril]

The higher the CEC of the soil, the more lbs of nutrient that are needed to be available to the plants.

Whoa .... back the truck up. You have this backwards. Higher CEC means less fertilizers/nutrient amendments required.
This is the reason why raising your SOM leads to reduced inputs, especially in a bridge program.

[Barefoot James]

Not sure but I think that is what mudd means the higher the CEC the more nutrients are available to the plants - just worded it wrong (funny) - should have dopped this "that are needed to be "

mudd??

[treegal1]

lime, yes please 2 in my drink....... oh in the soil no thanks I will pass, alllllll ssssttttoooocccccckkedd up :cry:

[Prolawnservice]

With a higher CEC you need more of that nutrient because there are more exchange sites to be occupied. Should have been a comma after "needed," and it would read better, I think.

[Smallaxe]

With a higher CEC you need more of that nutrient because there are more exchange sites to be occupied. Should have been a comma after "needed," and it would read better, I think.

That is quite true. Charcoal is the king of CEC sites. Innoculating them with nutrients seems to be the first step.

Many nutrients are unavailable because so few proper CEC sites are available. Meanwhile N will leach and/or evaporate waiting for a site to open up. Water soluable in the right place in the right time is what the majority of lawns live off of nowadays in the status quo.

Am I wrong? :)

[treegal1]

Charcoal is the king of CEC sites

so all the sh*t i talk actually has some merit, go figure some blond stumbles on to the holy grail of CEC, reads some BS on tera preta, and thats the end of story...............:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

wheres your char at?????

[Kiril]

With a higher CEC you need more of that nutrient because there are more exchange sites to be occupied. Should have been a comma after "needed," and it would read better, I think.

No, that is not the way it works. A higher CEC in the effective root zone means the ion has a better chance of being retained in the area it is needed, hence the lower requirement. You don't want to occupy every exchange site with a single ion, nor would that even be possible.

[Kiril]

That is quite true. Charcoal is the king of CEC sites. Innoculating them with nutrients seems to be the first step.

Why?

Many nutrients are unavailable because so few proper CEC sites are available.

?? Not following you here.

Meanwhile N will leach and/or evaporate waiting for a site to open up.

Leach or volatize per N cycle (denitrification) ... waiting for an exchange site to open up .... not so much.

Water soluable in the right place in the right time is what the majority of lawns live off of nowadays in the status quo.

I believe that is the way it has always been with all plants.

[Prolawnservice]

No, that is not the way it works. A higher CEC in the effective root zone means the ion has a better chance of being retained in the area it is needed, hence the lower requirement. You don't want to occupy every exchange site with a single ion, nor would that even be possible.

So, your saying to make the changes in soil balance that would effect a plants ability to thrive, over a undesired plant, in a Higher CEC, It would take less of that nutrient than in an area with lower CEC? Isn't that what this thread is about, liming?

Kiril,
I know, its not Ag, we are growing landscape plants, but if your trying to balance soil to deter weeds and encourage the desired plants to thrive, what would be your course of action?

[Kiril]

So, your saying to make the changes in soil balance that would effect a plants ability to thrive, over a undesired plant, in a Higher CEC, It would take less of that nutrient than in an area with lower CEC? Isn't that what this thread is about, liming?

My first post was in response to what Mudd said.

The higher the CEC of the soil, the more lbs of nutrient that are needed to be available to the plants.

I know, its not Ag, we are growing landscape plants, but if your trying to balance soil to deter weeds and encourage the desired plants to thrive, what would be your course of action?

Ag, landscape, nature, the relationships are the same. My course of action is to balance the nutrients in a manner that works with the natural system and to use plants that also work with the natural system.

With respect to lime .... please read and ask questions if necessary.

http://lawr.ucdavis.edu/classes/ssc102/Section8.pdf

H2O + CO2 + CaCO3 -> Ca2+ + 2 HCO3- , 2 HCO3- + 2 OH- -> 2 CO2

[Smallaxe]

so all the sh*t i talk actually has some merit, go figure some blond stumbles on to the holy grail of CEC, reads some BS on tera preta, and thats the end of story...............:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

wheres your char at?????

Under the snow at -11 F.

Anxious to see how I did with stage 1. :)

It is a contually evolving process...
So how are you using it these days?

[Prolawnservice]

Ag, landscape, nature, the relationships are the same. My course of action is to balance the nutrients in a manner that works with the natural system and to use plants that also work with the natural system.

With respect to lime .... please read and ask questions if necessary.

http://lawr.ucdavis.edu/classes/ssc102/Section8.pdf



I'll read about lime later today. In the landscape, the Ideal situation would be what you said, however, most landscapers and property owners are not in that paradigm yet, and some may never be.

[Smallaxe]

Why?



?? Not following you here.



Leach or volatize per N cycle (denitrification) ... waiting for an exchange site to open up .... not so much.



I believe that is the way it has always been with all plants.

Because it is.

Don't overthink it. It is the beginning thought not the detailed analysis.

But if not bound - it is - likely to escape.

And that is the way it is for all excessive fert programs.

Like fertilizing trees. Lots of cec sites intitially ... Fertilizing trees for GP really bugs me. Irrelevant I know, but it does relate to wasteful fert abuse.

[treegal1]

Under the snow at -11 F.

Anxious to see how I did with stage 1. :)

It is a continually evolving process...
So how are you using it these days?

love it!!! under the snow. LOLOL

yes it has evolved, continuous retort with a gas re-burn and acetate recovery. then it gets wet milled with a diamond stone too we purposed to do our biding, then we add to tea or compost at will. but I am going forward with its use sort if in baby steps as I have yet to establish a baseline or max input for it yet..........

[Smallaxe]

love it!!! under the snow. LOLOL

yes it has evolved, continuous retort with a gas re-burn and acetate recovery. then it gets wet milled with a diamond stone too we purposed to do our biding, then we add to tea or compost at will. but I am going forward with its use sort if in baby steps as I have yet to establish a baseline or max input for it yet..........

Sounds great.
I am hoping to research 'potting soil amounts' this season, with multiple scenarios to see if I can observe any cause and effects.

I should get a truckload from you and expand into garden plots. :)

[Kiril]

Don't overthink it. It is the beginning thought not the detailed analysis..

No offense, but there is a difference between over thinking and getting it right. If your goal is to get to Boston, but you pick the road to Dallas, you will never get to your destination.

[Smallaxe]

No offense, but there is a difference between over thinking and getting it right. If your goal is to get to Boston, but you pick the road to Dallas, you will never get to your destination.

I pretty much have the same understanding of CEC as the article posted in the CEC thread. Water soluability in soils is relative to CEC moreso than in hydroponics.

After an accurate understanding of CEC in soils then we can look at water soluability in the rhizosphere.

Without adequate soil structure - Both issues become irrelevant to large and wasteful extent.

I like to start with a basic clear understanding of point 1 - b4 muddying the water with inappropriate references to points 2 and 3. I am really not sure just how basic the discussion needs to be, but when I read a post about "difficult" growing grass is I think maybe we should get back to some common ground here.

Maybe the squirt, fert, and irrigate folks don't know what -perc and retention- are and/or how they apply to the fert and squirt routines. As a results there are alot of foolish statements tossed around that amount to --
...that amount to -- little more than bashing.

[treegal1]

I should get a truckload from you and expand into garden plots.


well, due in large part the number of Florida associates that are coming on board with the tree program we are un able to meet our( the collective) needs...... that and a truck load of fines from up thata way may be cheaper, but if you want, a few bags are not out of the question.

I wish we had sources of some of the more northern materials that we use here.:cry: but we have made some great finds here local as we can get, that are working out just fine........

[treegal1]

so far about 4-8 lbs per K is what we are getting towards...

[Smallaxe]

I haven't discovered any char projects on a large scale here yet. I still use the commercial stuff for experimentation even though I have read a number of bad things about it.

Perhaps I can cook up 4-8 lbs of my own easily enough!! and try it on k, of one of my lawns. Mix it in with a few wheelbarrow of c-post. Not a bad idea. Thanks for the tip.

[Barefoot James]

Don't assume biochar is the be all end all product of the future. There is a ton we don't know and tests are inconclusive at best. Trying to recreate Terra Preta has not been accomplished. There seems to be more we don't know than do. Here is a new 10-page article, which addresses Biochar. Personally I think the solution is to get your soils mycorrhizal. If it has Myco it will use the char, humates or whatever else it needs to set the soil on the path to pedogenesis (living soil / active humus). if you got his everyting else is gonna be clicking and your grass/tree/plants and veggies will love it - except stuff like broccoli and cauliflower - LOL and a few others - but even they should do their best in these types of soils. You will note Terra Preta has very high humus contents and pedogenesis going on so it is able to use the char and carbon.

[treegal1]

Terra Preta, James I am real close to it on some levels, the final chunks of the puzzle came from some pottery shards I laid hands on, now we are sourcing some commercial ground waste Terra cotta.......... strange things happen for stranger reasons......... but i have a dream to find the solution and win the prize........

I haven't discovered any char projects on a large scale here yet. I still use the commercial stuff for experimentation even though I have read a number of bad things about it.

Perhaps I can cook up 4-8 lbs of my own easily enough!! and try it on k, of one of my lawns. Mix it in with a few wheelbarrow of c-post. Not a bad idea. Thanks for the tip.
Today 11:03 AM the high temp char is not so good and the low temp is what the dark earth had...... I will lend a hand to you later on after the TP wizz gets back, maybe shoot out a char retort plan if its cool to do so.

[Kiril]

Maybe the squirt, fert, and irrigate folks don't know what -perc and retention- are and/or how they apply to the fert and squirt routines. As a results there are alot of foolish statements tossed around that amount to --
...that amount to -- little more than bashing.

I can agree with this assessment. :)

[treegal1]

Don't assume biochar is the be all end all product of the future there is no one shot do all that i know of for all sites, will bio char save the world on its own, NO!!!!!

[Barefoot James]

Go for it tree. If you do get some of the puzzle figured out you will apparently have billions of dollars at your disposal - it would be like winning the biggest lotery of your life - cause you could start selling your own carbon credits - Mr Obama would get you written into the stimulas plan :laugh:

But seriously this would be some discovery cause everyone around the world is looking at this being some carbon tank solution right now. Hope you love travel:walking:

[Barefoot James]

BTW I like to travel so if you need help.................

[Kiril]

But seriously this would be some discovery cause everyone around the world is looking at this being some carbon tank solution right now.

If only it were that simple. :dizzy:

[treegal1]

james i am very aware of the benefits to me and others if i find all the clues and do win the prize, and yes there is an international competition that is going on now, of course as always, self funded and under-capitalized........

I do not like to travel and I will not fly to save my soul!!!! nothing unless i grow wings and that aint gona happen!!

also i dont want to think of the profane amount of cash that this would bring me as i feel it will taint my work and make me greedy, that aint me, I am my brothers keeper!!

[treegal1]

If only it were that simple. :dizzy:
if only...........................:cry::dizzy::cry:

[Barefoot James]

So, I'm in? me and King traveling the world spreading the good news. I'm packing now - get to work and figure it out:)

Back to Terra Preta. Almost seems like a fluke. That whatever happened everything lined up right and then they had all that time. Was the soil working well for the folks that ammended it? Or did it finally come together much later. This brings my thoughts back to that giant digester concept. And what about ramial chipped wood - don't you think it all works together?

[Kiril]

the Ideal situation would be what you said, however, most landscapers and property owners are not in that paradigm yet, and some may never be.

Seems pretty simple to me .... don't plant turf in the desert, don't plant acid loving plants in an alkaline soil, don't use plants that like a well drained soil in a heavy clay, etc.... The solution starts with the people pushing the products/services. The vast majority of property owners only know what is offered to them or what is available to them at the local nursery. Offer regionally appropriate plants and services, (re)design regionally appropriate landscapes .... one huge step closer to a saving/conserving valuable resources.

[treegal1]

don't you think it all works together?

no doubt in my mind, and if it was a fluke then.... up to me and others to figure it out.and if it was done by design and I think it was, what a great piece of science that is lost.

[Kiril]

Back to Terra Preta. Almost seems like a fluke. That whatever happened everything lined up right and then they had all that time.

And that is the problem with reproducing it. TP came about under a specific set of conditions and inputs which cannot be duplicated because of those required conditions. At best one can hope to achieve something close to TP, but it will be highly dependent on if the conditions of the region are conducive for that to occur. Basically, if TG comes up with something, it most likely will only work under her specific set of conditions. Try to do it in your conditions .... may or may not work at all.

[treegal1]

very true, only thing is my quest is 2 fold in that i first want to understand TP more and then try and use what i have gained to find a TP soil mix for my area.......

[Smallaxe]

very true, only thing is my quest is 2 fold in that i first want to understand TP more and then try and use what i have gained to find a TP soil mix for my area.......

Good job, TG. I will be riding your coattails and will even help win the prize if I collect a useful clue. As Lestrade said to Holmes, " We are not jealous of you - We are proud of you".

Just explain what makes TP so extraordinary, to me, when you discover the secret.

At least we know its real, now we only need to know , Why?.
No pioneer spirit in some people ... eh?