Advertise organics now?

[dirtandhoops]

Looking for some opinions: Will it do any good to advertise organic treatments now with most of the big companies (e.g. TruGreen, Scotts) normally renewing customers (non-organic) last Fall?

[ICT Bill]

Absolutely, just because someone has signed up does not mean they have to stay on the program, they can call up and say "no thanks" at any time

Stand on the sidewalk downtown and hand out flyers, go to watershed association meetings or other meetings that folks that lean towards organics. Got to the local grocery stores that may lean towards organics and leave brochures behind

Go talk to McDonalds, Marriott, property managers, county managers. I have seen several hotels in my travels that have a sign where you check in "your children are safe to play on our property, it is maintained organically" or something to that effect

All of those folks love to market themselves as helpful and harmless, DO NOT underestimate the marketing potential for other companies for your services

If you are doing your own marketing it should be focused squarely at 18 to 45 year old mothers and no one else.

[treegal1]

If you are doing your own marketing it should be focused squarely at 18 to 45 year old mothers and no one else. and get a woman to to it and its like a duck shoot!!!! trust me on this one get to the real heads of house!!!!

[dirtandhoops]

Thanks Bill and treegal. I am a niche landscape contractor. I don't do everything but what I do, I do the best. I've been studying the organic approach to lawn care through this winter. I thought I knew a fair amount about soil but now I've learned a whole lot more (and more to come.) I always thought of the organic folks as kind of "kooky" because I don't share a fear of harm to humans from synthetic fertilizers and herbicides when used with care and as directed. But I want to do what is most healthy for the soil and turf. After studying, it sounds like organics will make for long-term health of turf because the soil is healthier.

As for marketing, thanks for the ideas Bill. And treegal, I know who the decision makers are in a household! I influence her but when it comes right down to it, my wife makes the decisions in our house.

I will be looking forward to other posts on this thread.

[ICT Bill]

Thanks Bill and treegal. I am a niche landscape contractor. I don't do everything but what I do, I do the best. I've been studying the organic approach to lawn care through this winter. I thought I knew a fair amount about soil but now I've learned a whole lot more (and more to come.) I always thought of the organic folks as kind of "kooky" because I don't share a fear of harm to humans from synthetic fertilizers and herbicides when used with care and as directed. But I want to do what is most healthy for the soil and turf. After studying, it sounds like organics will make for long-term health of turf because the soil is healthier.

As for marketing, thanks for the ideas Bill. And treegal, I know who the decision makers are in a household! I influence her but when it comes right down to it, my wife makes the decisions in our house.

I will be looking forward to other posts on this thread.

I do not subscribe completely to the no chemical story either. Even the most organic of organic (NOFA) have an emergency form that they use when they have to pull a chemical trigger.

The form is filled out as to the product being used, app rate and any warnings, often they will supply a copy of the label as well. The homeowner then has to sign off on the treatment

I believe it is about less inputs, if you can have a great looking stand of turf and you are using 75% less chemicals than you were before, that is success in my book. You could also call it an IPM approach if you like, diagnose before application

[Kiril]

I'll add that my goal is to return the landscape to a "natural" habitat, or at least as close as one can get on developed property. Is my goal realized on every property I work with .... no, but that doesn't stop me from trying to get there. :)

[treegal1]

I do not subscribe completely to the no chemical story either. Even the most organic of organic (NOFA) have an emergency form that they use when they have to pull a chemical trigger.

The form is filled out as to the product being used, app rate and any warnings, often they will supply a copy of the label as well. The homeowner then has to sign off on the treatment

I believe it is about less inputs, if you can have a great looking stand of turf and you are using 75% less chemicals than you were before, that is success in my book. You could also call it an IPM approach if you like, diagnose before application
now that's the wisest thing I have seen in a while, even from a purist of sorts its still in the last resort category, if its a high value plant or crop and the danger factor is low, then go the way of the chemical and do what you need to do, but only as a last resort, maybe think about letting it die or just replace it with something more native or resistant??

[Kiril]

Agriculture != Landscapes.

This is a very important distinction to make, especially given much of the information/research out there is generated by the agricultural industry. That doesn't mean the information is invalid with respect to landscapes, but one needs to keep the end game in mind.

[Smallaxe]

... I am a niche landscape contractor. I don't do everything but what I do, I do the best. I've been studying the organic approach to lawn care through this winter. .... After studying, it sounds like organics will make for long-term health of turf because the soil is healthier.
...

What do you plan to do for a "Program"? 4-6 apps perseason or on an 'as needed basis'?

[dirtandhoops]

What I have in mind is: soil test first; then core aeration with compost application; and 4 to 5 apps. I would customize it all according to results. One thing I would like advice on is the timing of the first application in relation to the compost. I have a good source for yard-waste compost. I would prefer to use plant-derived ferts. I also need to study a little more about compost tea. (Yes, I expect to hear from Bill.)

[ICT Bill]

Dirt and hoops

You can't do it wrong, you can only do it better (Kevin John Richardson)

He also said "Organic matter is the gas that makes the engine run"

If you are doing core aeration.........spray compost teas AFTER core aeration and BEFORE anything else

[Smallaxe]

... One thing I would like advice on is the timing of the first application in relation to the compost. ...

I was going to add seed along with the first composting, near the time of the first mowing. [give or take as time permits]
Depending on the color after the third mowing I might start with Milorganite then. Unless it's real sandy with a wet spring. Then it might be worth while to spread some heavy topsoil the same way you spread compost, hitting it with Milorganite at the same time.

Does being an "Organic Professional", mean that you know how to prevent the common lawn problems?

[Itsthesoil]

"Looking for some opinions: Will it do any good to advertise organic treatments now with most of the big companies (e.g. TruGreen, Scotts) normally renewing customers (non-organic) last Fall?"

As said, people can opt out of many programs. Given that, my 2 cents is in your marketing:

1- Set customer expectations focusing on the long term switch to organic transition process. Here is a site for info: http://www.joe.org/joe/2008february/a4.php

2- Look for cost effective organic products. In a University turfgrass management school I just completed, there was limited / no support for compost tea and other similar products. Buy bulk from chickitydoodoo.com or the biosolids like Milorganite. Offer your services at about mainstream service prices.

3- Sell /market based on a long term process that decreases inputs and costs as the lawn and landscape become more organically and biologically active.

Organic suppliers and services are often overpriced and less effective than the hype. Scare tactics about synthetically produced inputs are sometimes used. An example is the 'heavy metals' hype in biosolids.

The fact is, there are no correlation studies that directly link lawn care chemicals with general health effects. (Allergic reactions aside) There are > 20 studies that have 'indications' of health issues.

Often, the perceived end value of 'organics' is not there. Corn gluten is an example. Wow, is that stuff expensive. As a result, people resist jumping in, even if they have kids and are a mother between 20 and 45 years old. BTW, market to everyone. Mother's are not the only buyers.

Last point. Cost of service in 2009 and 2010 will probably be a huge deal in our down economy. One way to be cost effective is to offer a 2 times per year organic 'maintenance level' fertilization program. Then build off that. Upsell and offer more 'value' services like deep tine aeration.

[Itsthesoil]

"The fact is, there are no correlation studies that directly link lawn care chemicals with general health effects. (Allergic reactions aside) There are > 20 studies that have 'indications' of health issues."

This shoiuld read when applied to lawns. Of course there is evidence that DDT, for example, is evil stuff for human tissues.

[Itsthesoil]

2,4D - Not DDT. Maybe I'm having a chemical caused brain malfuntion.

[Kiril]

Point 3 -> Absolutely

As far as health effect and chemicals, I'll leave that one for TG.

[Smallaxe]

"Looking for some opinions: Will it do any good to advertise organic treatments now with most of the big companies (e.g. TruGreen, Scotts) normally renewing customers (non-organic) last Fall?"

As said, people can opt out of many programs. Given that, my 2 cents is in your marketing:

1- Set customer expectations focusing on the long term switch to organic transition process. Here is a site for info: http://www.joe.org/joe/2008february/a4.php

2- Look for cost effective organic products. In a University turfgrass management school I just completed, there was limited / no support for compost tea and other similar products. Buy bulk from chickitydoodoo.com or the biosolids like Milorganite. Offer your services at about mainstream service prices.

3- Sell /market based on a long term process that decreases inputs and costs as the lawn and landscape become more organically and biologically active.

Organic suppliers and services are often overpriced and less effective than the hype. Scare tactics about synthetically produced inputs are sometimes used. An example is the 'heavy metals' hype in biosolids.

The fact is, there are no correlation studies that directly link lawn care chemicals with general health effects. (Allergic reactions aside) There are > 20 studies that have 'indications' of health issues.

Often, the perceived end value of 'organics' is not there. Corn gluten is an example. Wow, is that stuff expensive. As a result, people resist jumping in, even if they have kids and are a mother between 20 and 45 years old. BTW, market to everyone. Mother's are not the only buyers.

Last point. Cost of service in 2009 and 2010 will probably be a huge deal in our down economy. One way to be cost effective is to offer a 2 times per year organic 'maintenance level' fertilization program. Then build off that. Upsell and offer more 'value' services like deep tine aeration.

Here again we are talking about 'inputs' and their cost. Also I hear 'expensive' and 'lower expectations'.

We used to beat the drum It's all about the soil". Now we talk just like the University of 'one size fits all' - only thing is: our side has a better product line. No we don't.

Synthetic is easily shipped , measured, and applied with reliable results.
Can CGM beat that?

We need to offer better soil, less disease, and sensible water care. In other words: a Real Program. JMO.

[Kiril]

Dude .... one size does fit all .... COMPOST DOES A SOIL GOOD! :)

[Smallaxe]

Dude .... one size does fit all .... COMPOST DOES A SOIL GOOD! :)

OK, you got me there. :)

[quackgrass]

My advertisement advice would be to do it now, and don't get into toxicology with your customers unless they insist.

Health:
There have been more deaths caused by pathogens and spores from compost in recent years than synthetic fertilizers or 2,4-d

Environment:
Human composts and milorganite have toxins that were filtered out of the waste water supply. You are proposing to put this on their land.

Try to focus on the plant and explain what your organic products can do for it.

Leave the other stuff for scientists and the EPA to debate.

[Smallaxe]

... Human composts and milorganite have toxins that were filtered out of the waste water supply. You are proposing to put this on their land.
....

You really think that they filter all the toxins out of the water and stash them in the Milorganite?!?

I haven't seen how they compost humans - so I can't comment on that.

[JDUtah]

I haven't seen how they compost humans - so I can't comment on that.

ROFL :clapping:

[dirtandhoops]

Quackgrass: I can't tell if you're for 'em or agin' 'em.

[quackgrass]

You really think that they filter all the toxins out of the water and stash them in the Milorganite?!?

I haven't seen how they compost humans - so I can't comment on that.

Milorganite is the toxin filtered out of the water. Do you think treatment plants catch turds for sport? Turds are toxins and they capture them to keep our waters clean. It also happens to make a great fertilizer.

Those of us that run composting plants refer to the product by what it is based on. "Human compost" refers to a product that is about 1/3rd human feces.

When human feces leaves the body and goes to a water treatment plant, it goes through a major filtering process to insure that our water ways are not being polluted.

Consequently, what is filtered out of the water contains many things.

This is from the latest EPA report:
Briefly, the survey found in 84 random samples of treated sludge:

* The four anions were found in every sample.
* 27 metals were found in virtually every sample, with one metal (antimony) found in no less than 72 samples.
* Of the six semivolatile organics and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, four were found in at least 72 samples, one was found in 63 samples, and one was found in 39 samples.
* Of the 72 pharmaceuticals, three (i.e., cyprofloxacin, diphenhydramine, and triclocarban) were found in all 84 samples and nine were found in at least 80 of the samples. However, 15 pharmaceuticals were not found in any sample and 29 were found in fewer than three samples.
* Of the 25 steroids and hormones, three steroids (i.e., campesterol, cholestanol, and coprostanol) were found in all 84 samples and six steroids were found in at least 80 of the samples. One hormone (i.e., 17a-ethynyl estradiol) was not found in any sample and five hormones were found in fewer than six samples.
* All of the flame retardants except one (BDE-138) were essentially found in every sample; BDE-138 was found in 54 out of 84 samples.

http://www.epa.gov/waterscience/biosolids/tnsss-overview.html

[quackgrass]

Quackgrass: I can't tell if you're for 'em or agin' 'em.

I couldn't have a weirder perspective.

1. I was a share holder and developer of an awesome company called Bio-logics. We obtained a license to produce compost, including We sold to the public, but mostly for mine reclamation projects.

2. I work for an environmental engineering company doing reclamation on super-fund sites.

3. My wife works for the DEQ

4. My Family owns a Lawn, tree, pest and weed control company. I've helped them create an organic program and I know the synthetic side also.

I am for the best solution. Sometimes its Organic, other times its synthetic. I am against people's assumptions that organics better and man made is always harmful. I just want a spade to be a spade. My O/P was advice to avoid getting into toxicology with a customer, its very complicated and you probably don't have enough info right now. Just keep your marketing peaceful without trashing other LCO's.

[Smallaxe]

Milorganite ...

http://www.epa.gov/waterscience/biosolids/tnsss-overview.html

Milwaukee doesn't whitewash what is in your basic sewage sludge and what go back into the lake.

A good case of Cryptosporidium proves to be a good 'Wake-up Call'.

Your article about sewage sludge a reportted by the EPA statutitions has nothing to do with Milorganite?
The EPA has analysed that as well.

If there are lies out there then we need to know that. :)

If the EPA says sludge is bad, but can be cleaned up to make NPK and fe for vegetables and everyone with a testing method agrees then....

then we need to be smart enough to know what that means.

[dirtandhoops]

Quackgrass: At least you're smart enough to know your perspective is "weird."
I say that in a complimentary way. I've only been studying organics during this off-season (for us Northerners.) I can see that there are as many questions as there are answers. Thanks for your advice on marketing. While I may end up serving some clients who are frightened of "chemicals", my main offering will be building up the soil as the way to better turf. I have always practiced IPM for plants and turf. For instance, I rarely blanket spray for weed control. It's always been the pump-up sprayer for me. As for plant pests, many times it's just good ol' soap and water.

[Kiril]

I am against people's assumptions that organics better and man made is always harmful.

This is an unfortunate stigma that has been cast on the "organic" crowd due to the actions of zealots and political perception/agendas. It is not really a question of what is better, but more a question of what is sustainable. Can organics (ex. biosolids) do just as much harm to the environment, absolutely. Every site needs to be assessed independently to determine the most logical and sustainable way to manage it, and for what products can be used successfully. Sometimes this means a bridge, sometimes a complete redesign, and others an all organic approach, sometimes biosolids, or just a mix of all.

Point is, there is no such thing as one size fits all. If I were dealing with sandy soils and a shallow water table (ex. TG), an all biosolid program or an all synthetic program would not be a good idea. A small percentage of biosolids mixed in with green waste compost probably would be the best way to use the shiit in this case. On the other hand, an all biosolids program with soils high in clay and deep water tables may be acceptable depending on land usage.

[quackgrass]

I am a big supporter of composting in the right situation, but I don't want to be guilty of down playing its hazards. Many consumers, and providers of compost act as if there isn't a foot print or impact from its use.

I have paid enough diesel bills and purchased enough heavy equipment to know that composting requires a tremendous amount of energy. It has a foot print.

The Super Fund sites I have worked on used over a million yards of compost to fortify soil that was stripped of organics by mining. Taking soil that couldn't grow a weed and turning it into a lush pasture is an amazing thing and I saw first hand what compost could do.

I also realized the downside to compost after seeing how many toxins it actually contains. The goal of these Super Fund sites was not only reestablish vegetation, but to have a 24" layer of "clean" soil. Many of the areas where we had tilled compost into clean capping soil, didn't meet the EPA's strict requirements for being clean. The problem was traced back to the Human sludge compost, which contained a high amount of metals and other contaminates.

The EPA had permitted the use of sludge without fully knowing what it contained because it is exempt from thorough testing. Recently they have chosen to find out more about it and its effects.

Everything we do has some impact on the environment, even a natural peat topdressing has to be mined and hauled. Claiming organic services are the lesser of two evils is speculation at best. Claims like "safe" "environmentally friendly", preys on peoples emotions by allowing them to shrug off environmental responcibility. It isn't allowed in the synthetic industry so why should it be done in the organic industry?

I'm not saying don't do any services because its potentially harmful or unnatural to the environment, I'm saying sell your services based on what it does for the customer.

[Kiril]

Quackgrass,

I think it would lead to less confusion if when referring to biosolids (eg. sludge derived), use biosolids instead of compost. Yes it is "compost", but it is important to distinguish the differences. A compost derived from green waste is far less likely to contain harmful byproducts than a sludge or all manure compost.

[Dotens]

seems like we got wayyyyyyyyyyy of topic on this one. What does everyone do as far as advertising go? Newspaper ads, yellow pages, word of mouth? Lets hear about advertising and stick to the topic:)

[JDUtah]

Door hangers, website, word of mouth (business cards)... ALL with the same theme/feel.

Truck isn't lettered yet, will be asap (with same theme).

Oh, and I have friends that let me put stacks of my business cards at their businesses.

Also, I just started a Facebook add campaign. It targets people in specific cities and with specific interests. The add has an image of my logo (for branding) so even if they don't click it branding is happening. 48 hours with 28,000 impressions and 6 click troughs to my website... cost so far? $3.48 (well free with my $50 credit from Godaddy)

If the Facebook gets decent response I might go with Google and Yahoo advertising as well.

[dirtandhoops]

If you really want to get back on topic, it was supposed to be about Organics Advertising. Thanks.

[phasthound]

http://www.epa.gov/waterscience/biosolids/tnsss-overview.html

You left out the last line.
It is not appropriate to speculate on the significance of the results until a proper evaluation has been completed and reviewed.
Not saying you're wrong, but the study is not done.
I also did not see any reference as to which EPA grade of biosoilds was tested. I'll admit to not reading all links. And I'll admit to believing using biosolids on lawns is a good sustainable practice.

[phasthound]

If you really want to get back on topic, it was supposed to be about Organics Advertising. Thanks.

Put posters in local veterinarian offices, day care centers, etc. Forget Yellow Pages.

[quackgrass]

Sorry I side tracked everything.

anyway,

Organics have a stigma. That stigma is "a safe alternative". Most people want the best, not an alternative. Sell your products on their merits without turning away potential skeptics.

Market yourself as the best. People want assurance that you are professional, knowledgeable, easy to deal with, sturdy, reliable and proven.

Pass out door hangers that say something to this effect:

"Our business is providing exceptional results with natural products, to enhance the nature of your landscape."

"Find out how easy and inexpensive it is to turn tired soil - into TOPSOIL. Reliable and proven methods that show visible results."

An advertisement like this makes you a provider not an alternative.

It targets everybody, and best of all it doesn't feed the "Organic is safe" monster that has bitten everyone including the EPA.

It also leaves flexibility to offer many services and cater to each clients needs.

[Dotens]

Sorry I side tracked everything.

anyway,

Organics have a stigma. That stigma is "a safe alternative". Most people want the best, not an alternative. Sell your products on their merits without turning away potential skeptics.

Market yourself as the best. People want assurance that you are professional, knowledgeable, easy to deal with, sturdy, reliable and proven.

Pass out door hangers that say something to this effect:

"Our business is providing exceptional results with natural products, to enhance the nature of your landscape."

"Find out how easy and inexpensive it is to turn tired soil - into TOPSOIL. Reliable and proven methods that show visible results."

An advertisement like this makes you a provider not an alternative.

It targets everybody, and best of all it doesn't feed the "Organic is safe" monster that has bitten everyone including the EPA.

It also leaves flexibility to offer many services and cater to each clients needs.

Very well said