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JoeyD
03-05-2009, 11:38 AM
I found this interesting......

http://ledsmagazine.com/news/6/1/26




Letter to the Editor: White LEDs fail to match hype
26 Jan 2009
A lighting designer and specifier explains why he has stopped using white LEDs.
[Comment on this issue via our Blog entry "White LEDs fail to match hype".]
Dear Sir

As an exhibition designer and lighting specifier I have been a keen advocate of white LED lighting in exhibitions, but recently I have had to reconsider this decision. There is an urgent need for the white LED lighting industry to develop a more transparent and meaningful framework for the specification and performance rating of white LED-based lamps.

If this is not done then I believe that many of the developmental gains of the last few years may be squandered as users are put off by the poor performance of some products.

High failure rates and very rapid phosphor degradation has made manufacturers claims of 50,000-hour lifetimes seem, at best, grossly exaggerated hyperbole and, at worst, deliberate deception.

A recently surveyed exhibition, containing 48 GU10-base lamps, revealed that in 2500 hours of operation, light output had fallen by between 82 and 87%, while 12% of the lamps had failed electronically.

Given that the purpose of a lamp is to provide useful light, while the LED emitters themselves may well function for the 50,000 hours claimed, the actual life of a lamp is determined by the useful phosphor life, which does not even begin to approach this figure.

In reporting this sort of performance to suppliers I have been surprised at how little they know about the true performance of the products they are selling. As white LED lighting becomes more prevalent it will be distributors and retailers that will bear the brunt of customer dissatisfaction and may well fall foul of advertising standards regulations.

It is only market pressure that will force manufacturers to specify their products more transparently and direct resources into solving these challenging problems.

In the meantime I have been forced to replace whole lighting systems at my cost and consequently I have had to take the decision to not specify white LED lighting until such time as I can be confident in the specifications and lamp life.

Unless the true performance of white LEDs can be dramatically improved or costs substantially reduced then this technology may yet prove to be a dead man walking.

Frazer Monks
Exhibitas Design
Newport on Tay, Fife, Scotland
Email: Frazer Monks

Tomwilllight
03-05-2009, 03:32 PM
More information is available on the blogs attached to the article.

I see that you have used LED lamps with LEDs packaged in standard halogen lamp package and that's one of the big errors made by a big number of LED lamp manufacturers without sufficient technical knowledge of LED technology. For the best of its use LED lighting shall be apply differently to the standard lighting technologies, LEDs shall be properly packaged taking into account the heat dissipation criticality.

The LED killer is heat and white LED's are particularly sensitive. Put them in a sealed fixture designed for halogen and you have problems. Unless, of course, you work in a cold climate with short summers.

Tom

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-05-2009, 08:57 PM
The LED killer is heat and white LED's are particularly sensitive. Put them in a sealed fixture designed for halogen and you have problems. Unless, of course, you work in a cold climate with short summers.

Tom

OR - Unless you develop unique, proprietary driver technology which actually results in cooler running LED chips, combined with well engineered heat sinks that take the thermal issues into consideration.

It IS possible to build LED lamps that meet all of the operating requirements of the LEDs themselves. Kumho's Luxxo is one example, as is the CRS product. Both of these product lines perform very well, and keep the LEDs operating below manufactures heat specifications, even when installed in sealed fixtures. The G4 Bi-Pin LED lamp that I am having made for my company shares these features as well.

Neither the letter that Joey posted, nor the information that Tom referred to names the specific lamps or manufacturers used. There is a TON of cheaply made, poorly engineered LED lamps on the market. I know I have tested well over 100 of them. That doesn't mean that it is impossible to build good product.

MAGLIGHTING
03-05-2009, 09:15 PM
There are two sides to every story and sometimes there is a hidden agenda in these blogs/articles etc.

If you've put alot of money into developing a technology and support it then obviously you are going to talk positively about it at all times and promote it.

If you've got your money in conflicting or competing technology your story will be different.

One thing is for sure that everyone's perception of brightness is different. Not much ambiguity with lamp life and longevity. Either it holds it's efficiency for somewhere close to it's claims or it doesn't.

The jury is still out and time will tell.

Right now there are too many uncertainties to jump in with both feet.

I've been burned too many times before by wild manufacturers claims regarding outdoor lighting. I have an open mind but I'm sticking with what has worked and will continue to work and those are halogen MR-16 lamps.
They have some deficiencies but it's the best we've got right now. Why fix it if it's not broken?
My biggest concern regarding LED's are that they will take the technical and electrical engineering hurdle out of the way and will open the door for every Tom, Dick, and Harry to become a lighting installer. You think you've got competition from gardeners, landscaper, electricians, handyman now? You ain't seen nothin' yet.

dglights
03-05-2009, 11:01 PM
I just pulled up the Luxxo spec sheet James. Is this the lamp with 4 chips?

There are to many unknowns from Joey's post to really determine exactly what happened with those lamps. What was their maximum operating temp, what was their wattage, what was there life rating, what LED was used, were they quality lamps, where were they installed exactly, did the specifier know the maximum ambient temp for his application? All we know is he used LED lamps and experienced failures and diminished light output in a very short period of time. With light output dropping over 80% in 2500 hours I don't think he even had high brightness LEDs but rather the old pin style which are known for their rapid light loss. I believe his experience and we also need more info to really figure out what happened and how it would apply to our industry.

Don't expect much from these lamps. There's a certain wattage limit for their size and not much you can do about it except know the limitations and use it accordingly. Tom's post sums it up, LEDs and electronics are sensitive to heat so make sure the lamp or fixture is designed correctly.

Comments like, MR16s not being broken so why fix them? LED fixtures can be installed by any DIY? seem to be based on fear of the unknown. If LED fixtures can be installed by anyone then there's plenty wrong with halogen. There will always be a need for professional installation. It's lighting design, there's creativity involved, skill required. I wouldn't want to be a DIY trying to figure out which direction to go with LED. LED lamp or LED specific fixture, what wattage, what optic etc? Now is a great time to differentiate yourself with product knowledge.

MAGLIGHTING
03-05-2009, 11:30 PM
I just pulled up the Luxxo spec sheet James. Is this the lamp with 4 chips?

There are to many unknowns from Joey's post to really determine exactly what happened with those lamps. What was their maximum operating temp, what was their wattage, what was there life rating, what LED was used, were they quality lamps, where were they installed exactly, did the specifier know the maximum ambient temp for his application? All we know is he used LED lamps and experienced failures and diminished light output in a very short period of time. With light output dropping over 80% in 2500 hours I don't think he even had high brightness LEDs but rather the old pin style which are known for their rapid light loss. I believe his experience and we also need more info to really figure out what happened and how it would apply to our industry.

Don't expect much from these lamps. There's a certain wattage limit for their size and not much you can do about it except know the limitations and use it accordingly. Tom's post sums it up, LEDs and electronics are sensitive to heat so make sure the lamp or fixture is designed correctly.

Comments like, MR16s not being broken so why fix them? LED fixtures can be installed by any DIY? seem to be based on fear of the unknown. If LED fixtures can be installed by anyone then there's plenty wrong with halogen. There will always be a need for professional installation. It's lighting design, there's creativity involved, skill required. I wouldn't want to be a DIY trying to figure out which direction to go with LED. LED lamp or LED specific fixture, what wattage, what optic etc? Now is a great time to differentiate yourself with product knowledge.


Comments like, MR16s not being broken so why fix them? LED fixtures can be installed by any DIY? show me where I mentioned anything about DIY?

seem to be based on fear of the unknown. If LED fixtures can be installed by anyone then there's plenty wrong with halogen. This statement makes no sense at all. What are you trying to say?

There will always be a need for professional installation. It's lighting design, there's creativity involved, skill required. I wouldn't want to be a DIY trying to figure out which direction to go with LED. LED lamp or LED specific fixture, what wattage, what optic etc? Now is a great time to differentiate yourself with product knowledge. I speak from a contractors standpoint and You have no clue the challenges that each and every contractor faces everytime he goes out to sell a project no matter how good or how established. Again show me where I said anything about the DIY that you keep referencing. Sorry but you haven't convinced me

By the way , are LED threads (because you sell them) the only ones you contribute to here?
Yes they are. I've just checked your 18 posts and everyone of them has to do with LED's.
__________________
Sherman Gingerella

dglights
03-06-2009, 11:55 AM
Mike, your biggest concern with LEDs are that they will take the technical and electrical engineering hurdle out of the way and will open the door for every Tom, Dick and Harry to become a lighting installer. If that's true then halogen must be more difficult to install than LED. Is that really your biggest concern?

I've installed entire systems before and have spoken to many contractors about their challenges so I wouldn't make the assumption I have no clue what your challenges are. If you were more specific about your challenges I might be able to help. For example many contractors are submitting bids for halogen and LED. This provides and advantage over someone who is only able to offer 1 or the other. This was my point about increasing your product knowledge and using it to help you. What happens frequently is the higher cost LED system makes the halogen system look pretty reasonable. Although the cost difference is decreasing between the two and the end user is becoming more aware of the value of LED.

This isn't the place to promote LED products its more like getting beat-up. If I wanted to promote I would have a logo, photo and link. LED is what I do and that's where you'll find my posts. I have an opinion about pierce point connectors and FX's use of Italian names but I just don't feel compelled to get in the mix on those. I don't make LEDs, I buy them and use them. The same challenges I've gone through are similar to what everyone is going through now with selecting LED lamp, led specific, what's this what's that. There are a lot of questions and I try to help out. I've even given Joey some advice in the past. Standards are being slowly put in place.

Do you want to discuss halogen vs led and which is best? I was hoping James would confirm the Luxxo lamp since LED lamp failure was the start of this thread.

MAGLIGHTING
03-06-2009, 08:02 PM
Mike, your biggest concern with LEDs are that they will take the technical and electrical engineering hurdle out of the way and will open the door for every Tom, Dick and Harry to become a lighting installer. If that's true then halogen must be more difficult to install than LED. Is that really your biggest concern?

I've installed entire systems before and have spoken to many contractors about their challenges so I wouldn't make the assumption I have no clue what your challenges are. If you were more specific about your challenges I might be able to help. For example many contractors are submitting bids for halogen and LED. This provides and advantage over someone who is only able to offer 1 or the other. This was my point about increasing your product knowledge and using it to help you. What happens frequently is the higher cost LED system makes the halogen system look pretty reasonable. Although the cost difference is decreasing between the two and the end user is becoming more aware of the value of LED.

This isn't the place to promote LED products its more like getting beat-up. If I wanted to promote I would have a logo, photo and link. LED is what I do and that's where you'll find my posts. I have an opinion about pierce point connectors and FX's use of Italian names but I just don't feel compelled to get in the mix on those. I don't make LEDs, I buy them and use them. The same challenges I've gone through are similar to what everyone is going through now with selecting LED lamp, led specific, what's this what's that. There are a lot of questions and I try to help out. I've even given Joey some advice in the past. Standards are being slowly put in place.

Do you want to discuss halogen vs led and which is best? I was hoping James would confirm the Luxxo lamp since LED lamp failure was the start of this thread.


No that is incorrect, my biggest concern is that they are not going to do what they are said to do and that is to perform and last.

I installed over 5,000 fixtures last year. I don't want to have to go back and replace failed equipment or field calls from dissatidfied clients who've paid a premium for the product.

For me this does not make financial sense until the technology has fully proven itself in the outdoor environment. Maybe for some guys who install lighting occasionally but for me it's not worth the risk.

My slogan is Low voltage landscape lighting systems Designed and built to last. My reputation rides on it.

Tomwilllight
03-06-2009, 08:43 PM
For me this does not make financial sense until the technology has fully proven itself in the outdoor environment....
My slogan is Low voltage landscape lighting systems Designed and built to last. My reputation rides on it.

Amen Mike!

In an industry that has been plagued with too much unprofessional practice, it's more important to be reliable than it is to be the first.

Tom

MAGLIGHTING
03-06-2009, 08:58 PM
Amen Mike!

In an industry that has been plagued with too much unprofessional practice, it's more important to be reliable than it is to be the first.

Tom

You are absolutely 100% correct Tom.

dglights
03-06-2009, 11:22 PM
If you're installing halogen fixtures then it's guaranteed your going back to replace lamps. The halogen system is pretty unreliable if you think about it. Everyone expects the halogen to fail and they're only a few dollars to replace. If the LED lamp fails before it's time though then this is very bad because they're quite a bit more. More importantly the reputation of the individual who selected the lamp is tarnished or worse. The burden of lamp selection falls on the specifier/installer along with the responsibility and accountability of ensuring it's up to the task.

How will you know when or if LED lamp technology is ready?

I think it would be best to say what you want and expect from this technology. I see a lot of feedback on the transformer thread (can I get a 100Watt by the way with all the bells and whistles please especially the LED light inside) I just got the latest issue of Architectural SSL and every time there are more companies involved and lots of discussion as to how this technology should be handled. Architects and specifiers are definitely providing there feedback, good and bad. There are good examples of LED specific fixtures too like Cree's LR6 downlight, it's won awards and I haven't heard anything negative about this fixture since it's release a few years ago. There's an article about Zumtobel's redesigned Aero lamp using LED technology. I think Zumtobel is a reputable company concerned with their reputation and I also think they took the time to do it right.

If you're going to say LED lamps are no good then you should say why. Like I measured the heatsink of brand X and it was over 200F at room temperature or there are 4 LED chips off center in relation to the reflector so how can that be the most efficient design. If you don't know the questions to ask or what to look for how will you know when you can use it?

MAGLIGHTING
03-07-2009, 08:14 AM
If you're installing halogen fixtures then it's guaranteed your going back to replace lamps. The halogen system is pretty unreliable if you think about it. Everyone expects the halogen to fail and they're only a few dollars to replace. If the LED lamp fails before it's time though then this is very bad because they're quite a bit more. More importantly the reputation of the individual who selected the lamp is tarnished or worse. The burden of lamp selection falls on the specifier/installer along with the responsibility and accountability of ensuring it's up to the task.

How will you know when or if LED lamp technology is ready?

I think it would be best to say what you want and expect from this technology. I see a lot of feedback on the transformer thread (can I get a 100Watt by the way with all the bells and whistles please especially the LED light inside) I just got the latest issue of Architectural SSL and every time there are more companies involved and lots of discussion as to how this technology should be handled. Architects and specifiers are definitely providing there feedback, good and bad. There are good examples of LED specific fixtures too like Cree's LR6 downlight, it's won awards and I haven't heard anything negative about this fixture since it's release a few years ago. There's an article about Zumtobel's redesigned Aero lamp using LED technology. I think Zumtobel is a reputable company concerned with their reputation and I also think they took the time to do it right.

If you're going to say LED lamps are no good then you should say why. Like I measured the heatsink of brand X and it was over 200F at room temperature or there are 4 LED chips off center in relation to the reflector so how can that be the most efficient design. If you don't know the questions to ask or what to look for how will you know when you can use it?

In your opinion MR-16's are pretty unreliable. I don't share that opinion. Your argument is not strong enough to change my opinion not one iota regarding LED's.

Again I never said they were no good. Right now I have much to lose and zero to gain by "experimenting" with un field proven product. Pioneers come home with arrows in their backs. I'll stick with my unreliable MR-16's for the time being thank you

The Lighting Geek
03-07-2009, 11:07 AM
I believe what is lacking in terms of LEDs, is standards to be tested by. If there were standard benchmarking of every lamp, with specified tests so we can do an actual comparison, many people could at least know when it is time to use LED lamps. I am talking about using a group of different fixtures so they are tested in real world conditions, a scale to rate the results on color rendition, temperature, lumen output, etc. Then we can actually compare products. Right now many of the lamp info for halogen are based on bare bulb tests in unrealistic conditions, not real world. They do a pretty good job comparing and benchmarking computer components, maybe we could hope for something similar.

David Gretzmier
03-07-2009, 09:09 PM
I've posted enough on the LED argument that everyone knows what side I am on. I know what to expect with halogen and have built my business plan around annual replacement. I know what to promise and what I can deliver. With LED's there has been a 5-10 year promise, with 5-10 years of miserable failure.

Only recently have I heard from James that there are a small minority of the lights out there, one or three out of 100, that perform properly and indeed have lasted a year or so out in the field. Compare this to the 70-80%, or solid majority of mr16 and g6 bulbs out there that, at the right voltage, will perform properly and last a year in the field.

It also makes sense that if LED's are able to work at all voltage levels that could possible come out of a trans and land at a fixture, then you have removed or reduced sharply one of the barriors of entry into this field, which is a technical knowledge of line load and voltage drop. Yes, you should also have a business sense and a science/art feel for locating, placing and aiming fixtures, along with that voltage expertise. However, all of us seem to rail against the majority of installers who seem to fail at all areas anyway, regardless of if they have LED's in thier hands or not. If LED's will make more installers, my guess is most of them still won't be good at what they do.

My two biggest issues with Led's are simple- number one- They will completely erode the selling value of your business, probably on the factor of 90%. with no rebulbs, you have no residual sales, and no residual value. don't believe me, then ask any business broker. number 2, LEd's reputation is already those ugly solar things from internet and everywhere else. I will have to completely re-educate the client. not really interested in that.

dglights
03-07-2009, 10:10 PM
Mike I'm glad you never had the opportunity to tell Steve Jobs pioneers go home with arrows in their backs! The last time I read a post with you saying that was May 17, 2007. Almost 2 years later and no arrows and don't forget I started way before then. No Pioneers, nothing gained. I suppose low voltage lighting just appeared one day.

Thank you Tommy for bringing up the standards and not the arrows. Standards are in place and products are being tested. Standards are also changing to keep up with fixture design. The popular opinion in LED circles is why are we trying to fit a new technology into an old fixtures. LED technology requires thermal management which existing halogen fixtures and sockets do not provide.
New LED specific fixtures are the only success stories out there.
David can you provide the brand of lamp and fixtures used? I'm curious to know if they were large or compact fixtures. What failed, LED or electronics?

We need to produce better green products that are inline with everything else that's going on. If you think LEDs have issues then sell me on all the benefits of halogen.

MAGLIGHTING
03-07-2009, 10:49 PM
Mike I'm glad you never had the opportunity to tell Steve Jobs pioneers go home with arrows in their backs! The last time I read a post with you saying that was May 17, 2007. Almost 2 years later and no arrows and don't forget I started way before then. No Pioneers, nothing gained. I suppose low voltage lighting just appeared one day.

Thank you Tommy for bringing up the standards and not the arrows. Standards are in place and products are being tested. Standards are also changing to keep up with fixture design. The popular opinion in LED circles is why are we trying to fit a new technology into an old fixtures. LED technology requires thermal management which existing halogen fixtures and sockets do not provide.
New LED specific fixtures are the only success stories out there.
David can you provide the brand of lamp and fixtures used? I'm curious to know if they were large or compact fixtures. What failed, LED or electronics?

We need to produce better green products that are inline with everything else that's going on. If you think LEDs have issues then sell me on all the benefits of halogen.

Sherman your arguments are real weak. I don't wish to waste anymore time debating you over this. Keep doing what you are doing and I'll keep doing what I'm doing. Again I disagree with you . It is not my responsibility to save my client electricity at the cost of ineffective lighting. "We" don't have to do anything but provide our clients with the best effective lighting system that's available today and that is not LED. Low voltage halogen is very energy efficient. It's the best that's out there performance to energy consumption ratio hands down. Considering that 75% of the lighting I do is with 20 watt lamps I'm not out there driving up my clients energy bills.

I did a job this summer where LED's were specified for step lights. I told the architect that I wanted nothing to do with them so they had the electrical contractor install them. I did a site walk 2 weeks ago with the owner because she wants more lighting. The first item on her list was to "properly" light the steps. These fixtures are of european manufacture. These LED cheek wall installed lights are blinding to the eye yet they put no usable light on the steps where needed. It's downright dangerous. The photometry of the fixture/lamp is terrible. They do look high tech during the day though I'll give you that. Too bad I don't install lighting for the ornamental value of the fixture though.

Steve Jobs? He's a perfect example of someone who came home with arrows in his back. For the first 20 years the company was a failure and nearly went out of business. He wasn't around for much of that time either. If it wasn't for Bill Gates bailing Apple out so he could sell them software there would be no Apple today.

If your technology takes 20 years to perfect and become profittable as Apple computers has then I guess we'll all have a long time to wait. Steve Jobs is a pioneer and a genious but he was no overnight success and it took many generations and development of product before becoming so.

Sherman Gingerella may some day achieve the same . Until then I don't want to hear anymore of your nonsense.

irrig8r
03-08-2009, 11:33 AM
Sherman Gingerella may some day achieve the same . Until then I don't want to hear anymore of your nonsense.

Jeez Mike, who died and made you emperor of the lighting universe?

Sherman knows his business.

Some of us would like to hear more.

Have you tried any of his fixtures? The way I understand it they are specifically engineered for LED use and not retrofits of existing fixtures...

Sure, it's relatively new technology... but I'm keeping an open mind.... not jumping on any bandwagons yet, but willing to give a few a try...

MAGLIGHTING
03-08-2009, 03:02 PM
Until then I don't want to hear anymore of your nonsense. :)

I added the smiley face. That was supposed to be a joke.

irrig8r
03-08-2009, 05:15 PM
Until then I don't want to hear anymore of your nonsense. :)

I added the smiley face. That was supposed to be a joke.

Thanks for the clarification Mike.

And I hope your neighborhood is as beautiful as it is here today...deciduous trees in bloom, a few puffy clouds in a bright blue sky. Sun shining on my back.

Life is good.

Smileys seem to have a calming effect on everybody these days, even though they were so ubiquitous I got sick of them in the 70's :)

irrig8r
03-08-2009, 05:35 PM
BTW.... off on a little tangent... who invented the smiley?

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/961/who-invented-the-smiley-face

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Ball

http://slick.org/deathwatch/mailarchive/msg00253.html

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-08-2009, 08:28 PM
I thought it was Forest Gump! :laugh:

BTW.... off on a little tangent... who invented the smiley?

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/961/who-invented-the-smiley-face

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Ball

http://slick.org/deathwatch/mailarchive/msg00253.html

David Gretzmier
03-08-2009, 10:44 PM
to the question- are you asking what lamps/fixtures work or don't? I don't reccomend any as I have not long tem tested any that have stayed on. I have not tested the kumho that James uses, but he has said that it works for him.

I've tested a number of multi-5mm, led mr-16's, single and multi-crees and SSC led's, single 1,3,5 watt luxeons, and a number of clones with different external heat fins, etc. they all fail, or lose thier lumens quickly. it seems pretty ridiculous to continue when the success rate is zero. The color on all were vastly inferior to halogen. the spread/dispersion was inferior.

The same has been true on the Christmas light side of the biz. lots of promises, but expensive poor results.

The only place that LED's are having some degree of success are on flashlights. I have a dozen or so cree, and high power P7 ssc led and the newer cree MCE LED flashlights and they are extremely reliable and ten times as bright as a Maglight ( this is an actual Maglight, not a new-old Lawnsite member)

I am completely behind Mike G on this one. The best product out for our clients are Halogens. period. but hey- I've said it before and i'll say it again- I am happy to have you guys out there experimenting large scale. your massive success or failure at the hands of your pocketbook and clients will pave the way for what works and what does not. we need you guys out there.

David Gretzmier
03-08-2009, 10:58 PM
also- It seems Steve Jobs has had some pretty good sucess, Apple computer was co-founded by him, after the appple 2 and the Mac, he was forced out in '85 or so. So, in '86, he bought the animation division from Lucasfilm and formed Pixar. Toy, Story, Monsters Inc, etc. Disney essentially bought that for a gazillion dollars in '06. He went back to Apple in 97 after they bought out the new computer company he built, the NeXt. bear in mind he was the CEO of Apple AND Pixar for awhile. The ipod, the Iphone, the apple music App store, jeez, what does a guy have to do to be successful ?

I also surfed around the internet to find out where Bill Gates bought out anything from Apple, software or Hardware, and could not find it. Mike G- can you shed light on this ....?

MAGLIGHTING
03-08-2009, 11:48 PM
also- It seems Steve Jobs has had some pretty good sucess, Apple computer was co-founded by him, after the appple 2 and the Mac, he was forced out in '85 or so. So, in '86, he bought the animation division from Lucasfilm and formed Pixar. Toy, Story, Monsters Inc, etc. Disney essentially bought that for a gazillion dollars in '06. He went back to Apple in 97 after they bought out the new computer company he built, the NeXt. bear in mind he was the CEO of Apple AND Pixar for awhile. The ipod, the Iphone, the apple music App store, jeez, what does a guy have to do to be successful ?

I also surfed around the internet to find out where Bill Gates bought out anything from Apple, software or Hardware, and could not find it. Mike G- can you shed light on this ....?

Gates didn't buy Apple out he gave them money to keep them afloat. I said Jobs was succesful and even called him a genius. His success did not come as an early pioneer though. Speaking of Pioneers how about Bill Locklin and Nightscaping. He was succesful until he had competition and things arguably went down hill from there.

dglights
03-09-2009, 12:18 AM
Low voltage halogen is very energy efficient Mike? Since you said you moved 5000 fixtures last year, assume they're all 20W, 6 hours per night, that's 219,000kwh Compare that to 43,800kwh using LED. If you're paying the bill you notice. That's right, 4Watt LED, 7Volt input vs 20Watt halogen. I guess everyone has forgotten the side by side photo Billy posted with someone guessing the LED was the halogen. Wasn't even a real LED fixture. Didn't someone post awhile back complaining the Kichler LED puck light was to bright.

If you had the product knowledge I bet you could have convinced your client's Architect to go with another fixture.
Please tell me how halogen is the best lighting out there, besides the maintenance contracts and difficult installation.
If you don't want to debate LED and Halogen don't post on these types of threads. Pretty simple.
Why did you choose LED for your transformer work light? Wasn't there an incandescent bulb you liked?

Anybody know the input voltage for the Luxxo lamp? I didn't see it on the spec. With 4 chips I'm guessing it's around 12V. Multi-tap required or your in the same boat as halogen.

MAGLIGHTING
03-09-2009, 08:14 AM
Low voltage halogen is very energy efficient Mike? Since you said you moved 5000 fixtures last year, assume they're all 20W, 6 hours per night, that's 219,000kwh Compare that to 43,800kwh using LED. If you're paying the bill you notice. That's right, 4Watt LED, 7Volt input vs 20Watt halogen. I guess everyone has forgotten the side by side photo Billy posted with someone guessing the LED was the halogen. Wasn't even a real LED fixture. Didn't someone post awhile back complaining the Kichler LED puck light was to bright.

If you had the product knowledge I bet you could have convinced your client's Architect to go with another fixture.
Please tell me how halogen is the best lighting out there, besides the maintenance contracts and difficult installation.
If you don't want to debate LED and Halogen don't post on these types of threads. Pretty simple.
Why did you choose LED for your transformer work light? Wasn't there an incandescent bulb you liked?

Anybody know the input voltage for the Luxxo lamp? I didn't see it on the spec. With 4 chips I'm guessing it's around 12V. Multi-tap required or your in the same boat as halogen.

I chose the LED's for my work lights in the transformers because of no other reason but space. There are three overhead and the light pattern stinks but better than nothing. I have had a 50% failure rate with the original LED indicator lights within the first year:nono:. We have changed to a different brand and we'll see. This has not reinforced my confidence in the product.

Is that what you're looking for a debate with LED VS. Halogen? Sorry pal, I'm too busy installing halogen lights to be bothered with your nonsense. No smiley face.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-09-2009, 08:53 AM
[QUOTE=David Gretzmier;2835150]I've tested a number of multi-5mm, led mr-16's, single and multi-crees and SSC led's, single 1,3,5 watt luxeons, and a number of clones with different external heat fins, etc. they all fail, or lose their lumens quickly. it seems pretty ridiculous to continue when the success rate is zero. The color on all were vastly inferior to halogen. the spread/dispersion was inferior. David, how many of these products above were engineered and designed into a fixture or lamp package by specialists who understand the specific requirements of the LEDs themselves? You cannot simply wire up some LED engines in your shop and then expect them to perform properly. Do you really think that the LED industry would exist if the results of their efforts provided a 0% success rate? Give me a break.


The only place that LED's are having some degree of success are on flashlights.:laugh: I have a dozen or so cree, and high power P7 ssc led and the newer cree MCE LED flashlights and they are extremely reliable and ten times as bright as a Maglight Another wild, broad sweeping comment. To state this is absurd. LEDs are making huge inroads into all forms of 'traditional' lighting. From civic, commercial, industrial and residential lighting, there are scores of excellent products available and success stories from every corner of the world. Get yourself subscribed to a few lighting periodicals my friend, or attend a major international lighting conference. LEDs are here and are now. Including functional, efficient, long lasting, well engineered LED lamps such as the Luxxo and the CRS line.

/QUOTE]

I have no qualms with you deciding to stick with incandescent lamp technology in your business. Where I do have an issue is when wild, inaccurate, misleading claims are made in a public forum. To state that LEDs are ineffective, untested, risky, etc. is simply wrong. There is good and bad in every sector of the industry, (prism lamps vs. GE for example) you just have to do your reading, get educated and go with that which works.

Regards.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-09-2009, 09:05 AM
Anybody know the input voltage for the Luxxo lamp? I didn't see it on the spec. With 4 chips I'm guessing it's around 12V. Multi-tap required or your in the same boat as halogen.

The rated input voltage for the Luxxo LED MR16 lamp is 10 to 14 Volts AC or DC.

I have bench tested the lamps down to 9Vac input and saw no visible deterioration in the light output or colour. As you start to drop input voltage down to 8Vac and lower the lamp will flicker for a bit and then simply turn off. It is not dimmable due to the nature of the onboard power management circuit that it employs.

In fact, it is the proprietary power management circuit on the Luxxo lamp that greatly assists in its ability to operate below the Nichia LED chips recommended heat ratings. Beware of LED lamps that are fully dimmable, as they are using linear power circuits which tend to cause the LED chips to run overly hot. (as explained to me by the lead engineer at Kumho in 2008)

Regards

NiteTymeIlluminations
03-09-2009, 10:02 AM
:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

dglights
03-09-2009, 01:05 PM
Mike you should stop shooting arrows. No smiley face. I could of helped you with your little work light. Your lights not working says more about the manufacturer than the light source. LED indicator lights have been around since the 60's.

You haven't been able to step up and argue halogen.
Try it, it'll be good practice for when you go up against guys that know both.

For everyone already using both, keep informed so that you can speak intelligently when choosing the appropriate light source.

David Gretzmier
03-09-2009, 02:56 PM
James- what I am stating is not wild or inaccurate- go ahead, and head out to Sam's wholesale, walmart, Target, or the internet. buy your self 100 of the first bulbs you find using LED's. using this simple pattern of purchase that normal folks use for everything from toothpaste to dog food, you will find what you already know- that the houshold bulbs sold in the stores right now give off poor illumination at a poor color rendering at best. Ok, fine, use the power of the internet- buy some off ebay, and buy some from bulb distibutors and see what anyone with half a brain can come up with. you'll find dozens if not hundreds of mr-16 type bulbs. 97% of them will look poor in a landscape setting or will fail in the first year or both. Did they design any of these Led's to work outside? I don't know, but then, I never ask that question when I buy halogen bulbs. you assume a bulb should work, period. the same is true of most of the LED products out there for Christmas Lights. I've tested, retested and am still testing just to find a bulb that looks good and lasts. You'd think they would design Christmas LED's to work outside, but they don't. I'd love to "give you a break" on this, but I'm not the only one with this experience. LED's fail like crazy.

compare this to "old fashioned" mr-16 halogen bulbs. I would say that 97% of those you can buy locally and on the internet may not be the best, but they are perfectly usable and may very well last a year.

Wild and inaccurate? Just because red led's work in commercial exit signs does not a landscape light make.

I'm sure there is good and bad in every industry. I just think that a measure of the maturity of the product is how hard do you have to look to find something good? not great mind you, just good. good should be average. and the average LED products that are in houshold bulbs, christmas lights, and yes landscape lights and landscape bulbs, that most folks can find now, are bad. The fact you have tested over 100 and you have found only 2 to reccomend speaks volumes.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-09-2009, 03:11 PM
Oh my, forget it David. I have no time or interest to argue with you while you compare retail level, no-name crap with professional grade, well engineered, industry standard products. Your ealier assertation was that the only successful LED based products on the market are flashlights! You and I both know this is wildly inaccurate.

Following the same logic as you present in your argument above, one would draw the conclusion that outdoor LV lighting is a miserable failure. After all, the stuff you buy at Walmart and Costco etc is pure junk... never works as ilustrated etc etc.

David Gretzmier
03-09-2009, 09:01 PM
You don't have to agree with me James, Although I would think an intelligent, learning person like yourself and others would at least admit-

-If most folks buy LED products, It'll be landscape lights, light bulbs and Christmas lights at Wal-mart, and at most home improvement stores- along with flashlights- which proves my point- all that stuff, except for the LED flashlights, will be worthless for doing what it is supposed to do.

buy an MR-16 bulb at walmart or Lowes however, different story. same online-most Mr-16 bulbs out there work fine if wired properly.

also, If you go out randomly and buy a landscape mr-16 fixture from anywhere, odds are it'll work longer than a year, maybe 5 years. This shows the maturity of the halogen bulb and fixture. a decent light for a homeowner is readily available.

and yeah, our stuff lasts longer than that. But it is not that hard to find the good to great stuff.

So if you are the learning, intelligent person I think you are, then like most of those folks you'll get

MY POINT- If you will at least listen, is that it is probably 10 times harder to find a workable LED landscape light or bulb than to find good landscape lights or fixtures. I'd say it is even harder than that, because I have not found one yet, but I have been taking your word that you have found 1 or 2.

The harsh reality is we don't know how long these fixtures you so heartily reccomend because James, you only started using them in the last 16 months. If I am going to look a customer in the eye and tell them this bulb and fixture is going to last 5,10 years, I need to know that somewhere, somehow, it HAS. Not on some instrument panel on a plane, or in an exit sign, but that bulb in that fixture in the ground OUTSIDE . period.

and as an aside, isn't it great that heat is the issue with these things, and James lives in Canada? I am wondering if what works in Canada will truly work in Phoenix , The land of 100 degree nights. if truly heat management is the key to these working long term, then hopefully the heat sinks are made large enough to handle the heat of the lower 48.

MAGLIGHTING
03-09-2009, 10:16 PM
Mike you should stop shooting arrows. No smiley face. I could of helped you with your little work light. Your lights not working says more about the manufacturer than the light source. LED indicator lights have been around since the 60's.

You haven't been able to step up and argue halogen.
Try it, it'll be good practice for when you go up against guys that know both.

For everyone already using both, keep informed so that you can speak intelligently when choosing the appropriate light source.

I called you pal, I thought that nullified the need to add the smiley face :).

Here's my answer to your debate request. I just pulled this photo quick. I'm too tired from installing halogens all day to search for a better one but I think this proves my point.
Attach a photo of yours showing trees of this size illuminated with LED's
Each one of these trees has a single 12V halogen fixture no greater than 35 watts. Try doing this with 12V LEd's at any wattage. Let's see what you've got.

MAGLIGHTING
03-10-2009, 08:10 AM
I called you pal, I thought that nullified the need to add the smiley face :).

Here's my answer to your debate request. I just pulled this photo quick. I'm too tired from installing halogens all day to search for a better one but I think this proves my point.
Attach a photo of yours showing trees of this size illuminated with LED's
Each one of these trees has a single 12V halogen fixture no greater than 35 watts. Try doing this with 12V LEd's at any wattage. Let's see what you've got.


Still waiting for your response.........................................

NiteTymeIlluminations
03-10-2009, 08:23 AM
:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

JoeyD
03-10-2009, 09:50 AM
LMAO..........

I have been waitng to see some really impressive LED landscape lighting photos and have yet to see them...........Not just good, but impressive!!!!!

dglights
03-10-2009, 10:05 AM
Let's see if I attached this correctly. 139298

dglights
03-10-2009, 10:12 AM
I know what you're saying Mike, installing halogen is a lot of work! Time is money.

Tomwilllight
03-10-2009, 01:26 PM
...if truly heat management is the key to these working long term, then hopefully the heat sinks are made large enough to handle the heat of the lower 48.

First: A WATT is a measurement of heat and describes an amount of increase. A watt of steam is the same increase as a watt in solid-state electronics. The higher the watts, the greater the heat produced.

Second: The problem for higher wattage LEDs is heat management. IC boards don't like heat. LEDs are mounted on IC boards.

Third: The heat generated by an LED is located in the IC board and must be removed to avoid damaging the circuitry. This damage, if allowed to continue, leads to rapid deterioration in the LED performance.

The Problem: How to wick the heat away from the IC board? Obviously, water works well as do fans, particularly if you have the amount of room an automobile engine has to work out it's heat production problem. (In ’67 my trip to Orlando Beach was ruined when my radiator failed on I-95. That's when I learned about heat exchange)

I sat in on a meeting last week where a LED engineer briefly considered cooling LEDs with water in Industrial and Theatrical lighting applications. He admitted that water and solid-state circuitry do not mix very well and that the amount of plumbing necessary to cool LEDs in those applications didn't make much sense either.

Clearly, the solution lies in a mix of more efficient LED's that produce fewer Watts to produce more lumens. The heat will be wicked away with more efficient heat sinks. The way to make heat sinks more efficient is to make them BIGGER and to assist them with MOVING AIR. The air takes away the heat from the larger service and cools the heat sink which can then take up more heat and so on. In this case, air is certainly better than water.

Most of our discussion, to this point, has been about the use of RETROFITTED MR16 sized LED lamps in existing MR16 landscape fixtures.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't recall ever seeing a MR16 fixture designed for the landscape that was not sealed against the elements. The goal is: NO exchange of hot air inside with moist air from the outside.

Landscape lighting fixtures are designed to handle very high heat. Why? Halogen lamps love heat. They are designed to run hot, because the heat makes the Halogen Cycle work. If you want to use a LED Retrofit MR16 lamp in a landscape fixture you must deal with the heat build up inside the sealed fixture.

The fixture you are retrofitting is designed to withstand high heat. Most of design consideration for heat was based on concern for the early failure of the fixture components themselves or the possibility of starting a fire in the landscape, not the life of the MR16 lamps.

I've been involved with two manufactures who decided to reduce in the maximum wattages recommend for stainless vs brass vs aluminum. The problem in both case was premature failure of the fixture… not the lamp. My involvment was part of a learning process that came from our reporting and evaluating early failures in new lines.

How do you manage the heat generated by a LED in a fixture designed to withstand high heat? Remember, this fixture is not designed to cool quickly, but to NOT fail when it gets hot. That difference is important.

In a sealed landscape lighting fixture, there is no cooling air flow over the heat sinks which makes the built in heat sinks virtually useless. Slowly the air inside gets hot, there is no exchange of cool air for hot air and the inside gets hotter. Add a hot day followed by a hot night and you have a hot fixture which will eventually exceed the design limits of the LED MR16 IC board.

How to fix the problem?

Could we modify the irrigation system to cool the fixtures - a drip on each fixture? - some sort of built in car-like radiator - a separate fan cooling each fixture? Or perhaps a single fan with ducts running to a group of fixtures. The AC guys will love that new market.

Retrofitting for a radically new technology is always difficult and usually unsuccessful.

And we have a market share problem too. We just don’t buy enough lamps to interest major lamp manufacturers

As I understand it, by far the greatest use of MR16's is for commercial Retail and Display applications. Landscape Lighting is a relatively minor segment of the MR16 lamp industry. We are a sideshow in the lamp manufacturing world.

The designer/engineers of the LED MR16 retrofit lamps have a number of serious problems to deal with. The LED manufacturers' want a piece of the giant MR16 market. The retail managers want to save money and labor. The LED manus need to produce lumen and life numbers that suggest that it makes economic sense to spend 10 to 15 times more than the cost of a generic MR16 that will last a year.

In addition, everybody likes the small size of the MR16. We certainly do.

All of the recently released MR16 LED retrofits I’ve seen have integral heat sinks. The heat sinks can’t be too big because the retrofits could quickly become too large to replace the MR16. If they are too small, the LEDs fail prematurely.

The engineers have anticipated that the units will be used in "open" fixtures that allow air to flow continuously over the units. They are designed for track light retrofits in retail and display use and are expected to live with air conditioning.

Even in those applications, we are hearing a lot about very early failures. Why are they predictions for long life and increased output so far off the reality?

The LED designer/engineer test their designs in a lab and use meters to prove what their bosses want to hear. It works in the air-conditioned lab… it should work in the real world… Right? Wrong!!!

The Manufacturer, certain they will make a sell a gazillion, advertise the best possible lumen, life and cost numbers. They need the inflated results to compete with a very mature technology that works very well - the MR16 Halogen lamp.

Solution - from what I hear and read - the manus and their engineers haven't come up with a solution that is proven to hold up in the real world of retail/display applications or in the landscape.

James, a courageous innovator by any measure, is reporting his success with a particular line of retrofit LEDs. He is the only user of retrofit LEDs in North America I know of who gets such good results. He lives and works in Canada, in a resort community that has a relatively short season (compared to Florida or North Carolina or even NY's Hamptons). I believe it’s because his short season and relatively low ambient temps at night, even in the summer, reduce the stress on his LED products and significantly delays their failure.

I believe the challenge for our industry is to create fixtures that work with LEDs. I believe the answer to LEDs in the landscape is in very well designed and dedicated LED fixtures. We need to make them to match our environmental and economic challenges, not the retail market’s.

Several manufacturers have made strides in producing working LED fixtures for the landscape. I believe the changing market will continue to push their development.

Of course, this will change the design/install industry. The MR16 is difficult to give up for many reasons: their small size and low unit cost. The good profit from replacing the dead, the quality of their light, and the incredible number of ways we've learned to modify their output to match our design goals. I will miss the MR16.

Tom

NightLightingFX
03-10-2009, 03:34 PM
Let's see if I attached this correctly. 139298

Looks good! What happens five years down the road when the light isn't as bright as it was on the first day. Do you have to buy a whole new fixture? What is the cost of a new fixture compared to a basic high quality brass MR16fixture?

NiteTymeIlluminations
03-10-2009, 04:38 PM
I really try to stay out of the ego battle that occurs here but here's a 100% LED install I am working on right now.

Pool lights, step lights, spot and floods, all LED.

Lazy river, surfing wave pool ( really cool) and water spouts for kids everywhere!

For these pictures I am standing in a night club that is 95% LED.

NiteTymeIlluminations
03-10-2009, 04:45 PM
and sorry...put in wrong photo...

JoeyD
03-10-2009, 04:53 PM
One of your best posts ever Tom!!! Very well said!!

Tomwilllight
03-10-2009, 04:58 PM
Thanks Joey!

NiteTyme, Good luck with your project. Please post some photos when it is up and glowing.

Tom

NiteTymeIlluminations
03-10-2009, 05:03 PM
I do lighting... I'm not a photographer. Sorry.

JoeyD
03-10-2009, 05:57 PM
LOL.......I cant wait to see that job Doug!!

MAGLIGHTING
03-10-2009, 07:27 PM
Let's see if I attached this correctly. 139298

Sorry Not impressed at all. There is no comparison to halogen. I noticed there are several fixtures there. How much did that cost to light that tree ineffectively? Where is the light on the outer fronds? It's concentrated on the "bulb" and the inner fronds. Nice hot spot on the ground under that pathlight-LED too? The photo is lousy as well. What is with that dead palm on the right? again LED's? I'd be embarassed to show such a thing. This is laughable

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-10-2009, 08:01 PM
First: A WATT is a measurement of heat and describes an amount of increase. A watt of steam is the same increase as a watt in solid-state electronics. The higher the watts, the greater the heat produced. Sorry but that is not 100% accurate. A watt is not a measure of heat. A watt is standard unit of power (energy over time). The watt is used to specify the rate at which electrical energy is dissipated

Second: The problem for higher wattage LEDs is heat management. IC boards don't like heat. LEDs are mounted on IC boards. No, not all LEDs are mounted directly to the IC/PC boards that carry the power management circuits. Many LED chips are mounted directly to heat sinks and have the IC/PC boards mounted remotely. The Luxxo Lamp is built like this.


Third: The heat generated by an LED is located in the IC board and must be removed to avoid damaging the circuitry. This damage, if allowed to continue, leads to rapid deterioration in the LED performance. No not 100% true. See my note above. Also, the heat produced at the junction of the LEDs and their mounting can be problematic to the phosphors that are used to shift the colour output to the white spectrum. In fact, the heat issue (if you will call it that) is more problematic for phosphors than it is for IC circuits.

The Problem: How to wick the heat away from the IC board? Obviously, water works well as do fans, particularly if you have the amount of room an automobile engine has to work out it's heat production problem. Fans can work, and I have some fan cooled LED A-Lamps here that are amazing. I am also working with closed circuit nitrogen filled cooling systems for very high output LEDs. Very cutting edge stuff, and much more effective than H2O.

I sat in on a meeting last week where a LED engineer briefly considered cooling LEDs with water in Industrial and Theatrical lighting applications. He admitted that water and solid-state circuitry do not mix very well and that the amount of plumbing necessary to cool LEDs in those applications didn't make much sense either. Watch what happens in that segment with nitrogen and other super conductive liquids.

... The way to make heat sinks more efficient is to make them BIGGER and to assist them with MOVING AIR. Not necessarily, special alloys are effective as well as other techniques. The air takes away the heat from the larger service and cools the heat sink which can then take up more heat and so on. There is also the ability to transfer heat away from the body of the lamp with physical conduction. Where the body of the lamp comes into contact with the body of the fixture. Most of our discussion, to this point, has been about the use of RETROFITTED MR16 sized LED lamps in existing MR16 landscape fixtures.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't recall ever seeing a MR16 fixture designed for the landscape that was not sealed against the elements. The goal is: NO exchange of hot air inside with moist air from the outside. There are a few MR16 fixtures on the market that are open design. Nighscaping, Kichler and Unique all have them.

Landscape lighting fixtures are designed to handle very high heat. Why? Halogen lamps love heat. They are designed to run hot, because the heat makes the Halogen Cycle work. If you want to use a LED Retrofit MR16 lamp in a landscape fixture you must deal with the heat build up inside the sealed fixture. Or you have to use a lamp that is capable of operating in those conditions, like the Luxxo LED MR16 lamp is. Also the CRS products work find in enclosed fixtures.

...

...

...

In a sealed landscape lighting fixture, there is no cooling air flow over the heat sinks which makes the built in heat sinks virtually useless. Not entirely true. It all depends on the heat sinks, conductivity between lamp and fixture, volume of internal atmosphere, and the materials that the fixture is made of. Slowly the air inside gets hot, there is no exchange of cool air for hot air and the inside gets hotter. Add a hot day followed by a hot night and you have a hot fixture which will eventually exceed the design limits of the LED MR16 IC board. Again, it is not necessarily the case that the LED chips are mounted to the driver's IC board. This is NOT the case with the Luxxo LED MR16.

How to fix the problem?

...

...

And we have a market share problem too. We just don’t buy enough lamps to interest major lamp manufacturers. Really?? I think that outdoor lighting makes up a significant share of the MR16 lamp market, certainly enough to be noticed. Also, these lamps are not ONLY suitable for use in outdoor lighting systems. They fill many niches in many categories and will become more suited to more applications as the technology is advanced and improved.


As I understand it, by far the greatest use of MR16's is for commercial Retail and Display applications. Landscape Lighting is a relatively minor segment of the MR16 lamp industry. We are a sideshow in the lamp manufacturing world. MR16s are a very common lamp for residential interior applications too. As a whole, they are a very common spec. throughout the world.

The designer/engineers of the LED MR16 retrofit lamps have a number of serious problems to deal with. The LED manufacturers' want a piece of the giant MR16 market. The retail managers want to save money and labor. The LED manus need to produce lumen and life numbers that suggest that it makes economic sense to spend 10 to 15 times more than the cost of a generic MR16 that will last a year. They are most certainly not that expensive! New ratings and measures are being introduced by IES and others that will help in leveling the playing field when it comes to listing efficacy, output, efficiency, etc. (The L70 is but one example)
In addition, everybody likes the small size of the MR16. We certainly do.

All of the recently released MR16 LED retrofits I’ve seen have integral heat sinks. The heat sinks can’t be too big because the retrofits could quickly become too large to replace the MR16. If they are too small, the LEDs fail prematurely. Not ALL fail prematurely! Some actually operate, while in enclosed fixtures, at or significantly below the LED chip manufacturers max operating temperature. It is possible to make these things function.

...

Even in those applications, we are hearing a lot about very early failures. Why are they predictions for long life and increased output so far off the reality? Mostly because a lot of the product on the market is clone and 'no-name' product from unknown SE Asian factories. Just like the first wave of popular CFL products, these manufacturers are long on claims and short on quality control. They play fast and loose with the numbers and flood the market with junk. That does not mean that Quality product is not available. Kumho & CRS are on the leading edge of engineering and manufacturing in this category.


The LED designer/engineer test their designs in a lab and use meters to prove what their bosses want to hear. It works in the air-conditioned lab… it should work in the real world… Right? Wrong!!! How would you know? How many years of shop testing have you done? How many hundreds of LED lamps have you tested and vetted? How many thousands of LED lamps have you installed? Is your opinion based on any real life experience, or simply conjecture and vague, outdated reports?

The Manufacturer, certain they will make a sell a gazillion, advertise the best possible lumen, life and cost numbers. They need the inflated results to compete with a very mature technology that works very well - the MR16 Halogen lamp. I won't argue that the MR16 Halogen lamp is not an excellent product, I still use them by the thousands every year. But to say that ALL LED lamp manufacturers have it wrong, inflate their numbers, mislead and misrepresent is a very negative, and wrong generalization.

Solution - from what I hear and read - the manus and their engineers haven't come up with a solution that is proven to hold up in the real world of retail/display applications or in the landscape. I guess you have not spent much time with Kuhmo, CRS, and (suitable for interior fixtures) Lamina & Ushio then. They all have fantastic products that have unique solutions.

James, a courageous innovator by any measure, (Thank you Tom,) is reporting his success with a particular line of retrofit LEDs. He is the only user of retrofit LEDs in North America I know of who gets such good results. I assure you there are others! He lives and works in Canada, in a resort community that has a relatively short season (compared to Florida or North Carolina or even NY's Hamptons). Our climate here is not at all different from anywhere in the Northern Half of the United States! Heck it is pretty much Identical in climatic and weather conditions to where you are from Tom. I believe it’s because his short season Same length of season as anywhere else Tom... 365 days in the year even here in Canada! and relatively low ambient temps at night Again, same temperatures here as in most of the United States, even in the summer, reduce the stress on his LED products and significantly delays their failure. The product I use is not only being produced for and used here in North America. In fact the lions share of the product is used throughout all of Asia and Europe, in all climatic zones. Lets not for a moment suggest that I live in some micro-climate zone that is uniquely adapted to the operation of LED lamps! The things work... period... why do you have such a hard time accepting that fact?

I believe the challenge for our industry is to create fixtures that work with LEDs. I believe the answer to LEDs in the landscape is in very well designed and dedicated LED fixtures. We need to make them to match our environmental and economic challenges, not the retail market’s. I believe that there is a place for LED fixtures too, but significant hurdles will have to be overcome. They need to be field serviceable for one and their designers and engineers need to accept that function cannot over ride form at every turn.

The market for LED lamps far outstrips that of LED fixtures, and it is this potential market that will continue to drive the research and development into successful LED lamps for years to come.

...

Of course, this will change the design/install industry. The MR16 is difficult to give up for many reasons: their small size and low unit cost. The good profit from replacing the dead, the quality of their light, and the incredible number of ways we've learned to modify their output to match our design goals. I will miss the MR16.

Tom

Wow, that was a great point / counterpoint Tom! :)
When are we going to get together for those beers you mentioned previously? We have a LOT to discuss! :)

MAGLIGHTING
03-10-2009, 08:38 PM
OK Sherman, let's see what you have for a difficult tree to light like a Live oak. There are 5 MR-16's aimed at this tree. 3-35watt FMW and 2- 20watt BAB to wash the lower trunks (there are three downlights installed up in the tree aiming onto surrounding plantings not onto the Oak). 5 LED fixture's cannot produce this kind of effective and powerful illumination and color rendition. I'll bet twenty cannot replicate this either. Are you saying Janet Lennox Moyer is wrong? Are you saying Nate Mullen is wrong? Well my friend ,if using halogen 12v lamps is wrong then I don't want to be right.

irrig8r
03-10-2009, 08:55 PM
That live oak is overly pruned and overly lit in my opinion.

It looks really unnatural and there's too much light at the branch ends, which if not pruned annually (assuming the tree is healthy) will fill in with new growth anyway.

Most of my customers are looking for a more subtle effect than this.

This particular specimen brings up that age old question that I first heard from Bill Locklin... "why light?"

If the answer is "ostentatious displays of conspicuous consumption", then this hits the mark.

Otherwise, fuggedaboudit. :)

MAGLIGHTING
03-10-2009, 09:00 PM
That live oak is overly pruned and overly lit in my opinion.

It looks really unnatural and there's too much light at the branch ends, which if not pruned annually (assuming the tree is healthy) will fill in.

Most of my customers are looking for a more subtle effect than this.

Right on. And that's why you sit home everyday in front of your computer while I'm out installing systems. If you had any idea what your customers wanted you'd have some lighting customers. let's see some of your work.

NiteTymeIlluminations
03-10-2009, 09:01 PM
It's over photographed. Some people can make a good job look bad or a bad job look good with photos...ughhh...

:sleeping:

MAGLIGHTING
03-10-2009, 09:05 PM
It's over photographed. Some people can make a good job look bad or a bad job look good with photos...ughhh...

:sleeping:


let's see some of your Nighttime shots . Maybe you're not a photographer but you can still hire one. Those who are serious and are relevant in this business document their work. Those who are not make excuses and criticize others on message bds.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-10-2009, 09:09 PM
There is not much point debating if the object is over lit or under lit or well photographed or not. Perhaps the client was looking for just that look, and if so, then Mike nailed it. A bit stark perhaps, but who am I to judge... the man does some amazing lighting! No one can argue that.

As for the Halogen vs LED debate... It is possible to replicate that exact look with LED fixtures Mike. The Kichlers (I do have a lot of reservations about the kichler LED fixture designs and "features"... Can't stand em!, but the output is very good) and I suspect the DG Lights products do produce amazing output in terms of intensity, beam spread, colour rendition, etc.

Ultimately... to each their own! :)

Enjoy!

MAGLIGHTING
03-10-2009, 09:22 PM
There is not much point debating if the object is over lit or under lit or well photographed or not. Perhaps the client was looking for just that look, and if so, then Mike nailed it. A bit stark perhaps, but who am I to judge... the man does some amazing lighting! No one can argue that.

As for the Halogen vs LED debate... It is possible to replicate that exact look with LED fixtures Mike. The Kichlers (I do have a lot of reservations about the kichler LED fixture designs and "features"... Can't stand em!, but the output is very good) and I suspect the DG Lights products do produce amazing output in terms of intensity, beam spread, colour rendition, etc.

Ultimately... to each their own! :)

Enjoy!

Thanks James. These guys are just trying to push my buttons. You have been doing some excellent work with LED's up north and I respect that as you are plowing new ground. I'm considering the whole package. I haven't seen anything that comes close to halogen yet in light output, fixture build, cost etc.

I have nothing patently against LED's or the new technology itself . Once I am certain they will do what I want them to do and they will last, not lose effectiveness prematurely and all my other criteria is met then I'll be on board.

The thread takes on a life of it's own when you get knuckleheads :hammerhead: chiming in who have no credentials taking pot shots at you for no other reason then their own personal hatred.

Thanks for injecting a dose of sanity and intelligence.

irrig8r
03-10-2009, 09:38 PM
Yes James.... you are a calming influence on knuckleheads of all stripes...

MAGLIGHTING
03-10-2009, 09:47 PM
Yes James.... you are a calming influence on knuckleheads of all stripes...

And you forgot those with no credentials as well. :dizzy:

irrig8r
03-10-2009, 09:50 PM
Hey Mike.. some of us don't need to be "relevant" in this business. We do it because we enjoy it, we make customers happy, we get paid and we go home.

We have lives besides our work. Sometimes they get in the way of doing nighttime demos and photography sessions... Oh well.

I was just having fun with you over what was either an overexposed photo or (in my opinion) too much light.

Let me explain where I'm coming from:

Most of my higher end customers are in the foothills with expansive (and expensive) views of the valley below. I've learned not to overlight the foreground and tend to only uplight trees that frame the view off to the sides. Your clients may have different needs.

Now I'm off to a sit down dinner of chili verde. I like being home by dinner time most nights.

David Gretzmier
03-10-2009, 09:51 PM
ah, yes, great to see truth and logic rule the day. The great thing about intelligent folks is they recognize when others are right and they are wrong, not afraid to admit when others make good points ,and further, when confronted with the possibility, they are wrong, They don't get personal. A true demonstration of intelligence is admitting where your argument is weak and where it is strong. Did any of you guys debate in college? did any of you go?

Wild and outreageous?

Liquid nitrogen cooled LED's ? do you honestly believe anyone with an intelligence over 100 believes those will ever find thier way into landscape? please.


If you want to look at how high power Leds in Landscape are going to work in the future- Try to look where they work well CONSISTANTLY - Flashlights and commercial signs. they both use large ( relative to the size of the LED) aluminum heatsinks. They are both water proof to a degree.

You can buy a high quality waterproof aluminum flashlight with a suitable heatsink at around 160 lumens that will burn through batteries all day long for about 30 bucks. blow that design up with proper heatsinks, to a 60 degree flood at the same price, you'll find your mass install market James.

David Gretzmier
03-10-2009, 09:52 PM
and I am done with this thread.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-10-2009, 10:10 PM
Liquid nitrogen cooled LED's ? do you honestly believe anyone with an intelligence over 100 believes those will ever find thier way into landscape? please. Do some more research David. There are a few different directions being taken down this route. Prototypes exist now. We are talking about micro-tech. here, not some "back to the future" mess of tubes and such. I would suspect the scientists and engineers working on this have some rather decent IQ scores.
You can buy a high quality waterproof aluminum flashlight with a suitable heatsink at around 160 lumens that will burn through batteries all day long for about 30 bucks. blow that design up with proper heatsinks, to a 60 degree flood at the same price, you'll find your mass install market James.

What? Only 160 lumens? :laugh: and no doubt cooler blue than a glacier's ice cap too! The Luxxo MR16 is putting out 216 Lumens at 3.6W at 3100K and costs just a bit more than $30. (just over 70 Lm / W) The new CRS LED MR16 makes 300 Lumens at 2800K but does have a 'new release' price tag (for now) and still operates at acceptable heat levels even when installed in a fixture. If you can handle 'cool white' (approx 4000k) then the CRS unit will produce over 400 Lumens... equivalent in output to an 35W Halogen FMW. and sitll operate within heat spec.

Peace.

MAGLIGHTING
03-10-2009, 11:54 PM
I really try to stay out of the ego battle that occurs here but here's a 100% LED install I am working on right now.

Pool lights, step lights, spot and floods, all LED.

Lazy river, surfing wave pool ( really cool) and water spouts for kids everywhere!

For these pictures I am standing in a night club that is 95% LED.

Your photos are under produced. sometimes photos can make a good construction site look bad and a bad construction site look good. Go figure.

Yeah you are right the caribbean is known for being on the cutting edge of landscape lighting so why should we not listen to you. :cry::cry::cry::cry:

I went last year and the high end resort that I stayed at really had some of the best lighting products installed that I've seen to date. see ya in saint louie :waving: keep knockin' em dead over there and maybe someday you'll make it back to the big leagues (continental US) :usflag: :canadaflag:.

MAGLIGHTING
03-10-2009, 11:57 PM
double post

NiteTymeIlluminations
03-11-2009, 08:18 AM
why would I hire a photographer?
Mike, I just don't like the way you talk to people on here and I think you constantly sound condescending. He sent a photo back and it wasn't good enough for you. Don't use LEDs! If you don't have an interest in using LEDs stay out of the LED thread and go to another thread. You don't have to constantly ruin a perfectly good thread by dominating it. I sorta liked last year when you weren't on this site; the year before you dominated every thread and ruins a perfectly good forum.
Did I ever say the Caribbean was dominating the landscape lighting world or that the bahamas was better? No, but there is a lot of work to be done down there obviously by looking at your photos...take a chillaxative. You don't have to beat a thread until you finally felt like you 'won' because nobody will respond anymore.
Are you like this, or come across, like this in person?

NightLightingFX
03-11-2009, 11:26 AM
What? Only 160 lumens? :laugh: and no doubt cooler blue than a glacier's ice cap too! The Luxxo MR16 is putting out 216 Lumens at 3.6W at 3100K and costs just a bit more than $30. (just over 70 Lm / W) The new CRS LED MR16 makes 300 Lumens at 2800K but does have a 'new release' price tag (for now) and still operates at acceptable heat levels even when installed in a fixture. If you can handle 'cool white' (approx 4000k) then the CRS unit will produce over 400 Lumens... equivalent in output to an 35W Halogen FMW. and sitll operate within heat spec.

Peace.

What about the "CRI" on the LEDs? Even though the color might look good is the Color Rendering Index good on the LEDs. I have been temped to try James' Luxxo's for some down lighting on a patio but I am concerned the color on peoples faces, clothes and etc might be kind of funky.

I am thinking you can get by without a strong CRI for wall washing and etc. but in a space where people will be I am thinking a weak CRI might not be very good. What do you guys think???

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-11-2009, 12:03 PM
The standard Luxxo carries a CRI rating of "70+". There is also a high CRI Lamp (90) available but by special order as I don't think there is any inventory here now.

I know from experience the colour rendition of these lamps is quite good. I have used these lamps in all sorts of applications, including moonlighting patios and there is nothing "funky" at all about the colour rendition. Things look just as they should.

Regards

NiteTymeIlluminations
03-11-2009, 01:17 PM
James, you have a Par16 or 20?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-11-2009, 01:31 PM
The best PAR20 & PAR16 120V LED Lamps I have tested are 7W units with really nice optics and intensity but not quite what I would call warm white colour. 3700K to 4000K is how I would classify them. Pretty good for general illumination in commercial applications but not quite warm enough for residential interior use. They are decent replacements for 35-40 Watt halogen PARs.

As they are not 'perfect' to my eye, I have not pursued listing them as available through my distribution channels. If you want more info, I can forward you a spec sheet, just email me.

Regards.

NiteTymeIlluminations
03-11-2009, 07:14 PM
im testing some megaman soon whom we get alot of dimmable CFLs from. I'll email you my address for some literature.

MAGLIGHTING
03-11-2009, 08:04 PM
why would I hire a photographer?
Mike, I just don't like the way you talk to people on here and I think you constantly sound condescending. He sent a photo back and it wasn't good enough for you. Don't use LEDs! If you don't have an interest in using LEDs stay out of the LED thread and go to another thread. You don't have to constantly ruin a perfectly good thread by dominating it. I sorta liked last year when you weren't on this site; the year before you dominated every thread and ruins a perfectly good forum.
Did I ever say the Caribbean was dominating the landscape lighting world or that the bahamas was better? No, but there is a lot of work to be done down there obviously by looking at your photos...take a chillaxative. You don't have to beat a thread until you finally felt like you 'won' because nobody will respond anymore.
Are you like this, or come across, like this in person?

Mr. carribbean with 333 posts on here you are hardly entitled to say who should post on here and who shouldn't. You started with me and I let it go and ignored it for the first couple of times until I had enough. Sherman also started and challenged me and goaded me into a debate. I quickly dispensed of him too when he couldn't answer my challenge to post an equivalent photo.

Why don't you read the posts first before trying to paint me the bad guy. All I did was state my personal opinion about LED's and why I'm not using them right now and a couple of wise guys think they are going to teach me a lesson and take me to task. Others like you seem to want to challenge me and then when you are soundly beaten you cry and complain and call me a bully or run and hide and hope the thread goes away.

I don't know it all , but I know alot and I've been around a long time and deserve more respect from someone like you who is trying to build yourself up by taking cheap shots at me.

You want to get some respect then let's see some of your work. That's a lame excuse that you are not a photographer and everyone knows it. All I see is a lot of talk and nothing to back it up from you. I received an unsolicited personal message from someone here who apparently knows you and they pretty much confirmed what I suspected about you. You got your 15 minutes of fame now go away. :waving:

NiteTymeIlluminations
03-12-2009, 08:27 AM
k bye bye.

Tomwilllight
03-12-2009, 03:28 PM
Wow, that was a great point / counterpoint Tom! :)
When are we going to get together for those beers you mentioned previously? We have a LOT to discuss! :)

As several have noted before, I have a tendency to fall in love with my logic stream and spend much time and words shoring my thoughts when a couple of simple declarative sentences will do the job. Call it an occupational hazard; the result of 25 years of delivering lectures to 18 year old kids who wondered why they wanted to take Intro to Theatre Arts.

Let me try to be brief and state my concerns clearly:

LED's produce some heat. Enough heat that, if it's not properly managed, the LEDs will fail prematurely.

True, advances have been made in the life and quality of LED's as a light source. But I don't believe any major lamp manufacturers are more than peripherally focused on Landscape Lighting.

Heat is a problem for all LEDs. This problem is not easily managed in a compact, sealed fixture that is originally designed for a MR16.

The MR16 retrofit LEDs all have heat sinks - that is, all I have seen. Heat sinks need moving air to dissipate heat. Moving air requires volume and the volume inside most Landscape Lighting fixtures very limited. The fixtures are designed to withstand high heat... not to dissipate it efficiently. Tree-mounted in a sunny spot late in the day and a hot, still night... or mounted on a west-facing masonry wall, I think the retrofitted LEDs will be subjected to relatively high heat levels. Higher levels than their designers envisioned.

I believe the retrofits will offer good service in climates that have significant cooling in the evenings and for clients who have engaged an installer of your caliber. That means, they have a well-designed control system will turn the lights off during the much warmer daytime.

Early adopters, such as yourself, by default, should put the new units to the test in the field. It's absolutely necessary for the engineers' designs to be tested in the field, accurate information gathered and reported to the engineers and the manufactures who are bankrolling the research. This field testing must be done in a WIDE variety of environments. Indoor and outdoor. In open and sealed fixtures. They should must be operated around the clock and output measured regularly.

I believe that LED's will come to dominate the landscape lighting market sometime in the not too distant future. I also believe that market will be smaller than it is now. How much smaller... make a guess.

Much depends on the public's eventual acceptance of LED's. Right now, we are in the midst of a lot of consumer confusion - very similar to the awkward way CFL's were introduced about 15-20? years ago. Then, many claims about CFL's life and color were grossly overstated, wrong or outright lies. That market has finally matured and CFLs are taking hold. I hope the LED market will mature quickly and with much less catastrophe.

Expect an order soon.

Thank You,

Tom

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
03-12-2009, 04:10 PM
LED's produce some heat. Enough heat that, if it's not properly managed, the LEDs will fail prematurely. True, and that heat can be properly managed. It is possible and it is currently being done. Kumho and CRS are doing it just fine, Ushio and Lamina not so much. It all comes down to using different mounting techniques, different driver technology and different heat sink methods.

True, advances have been made in the life and quality of LED's as a light source. But I don't believe any major lamp manufacturers are more than peripherally focused on Landscape Lighting. Landscape Lighting has always been a 'little brother' in the Lighting Industry, that is why almost all of our technologies (sockets, stems, lamps, etc) have been borrowed for so long. So be it... there are excellent LED lamps available now and more coming online all the time. Adopt the excellent product that will fit and work in existing excellent fixtures and politely excuse the rest. What is new with that?

Heat is a problem for all LEDs. This problem is not easily managed in a compact, sealed fixture that is originally designed for a MR16. Hmmm, how about: "Heat can be a problem for LEDs, it is not easily managed in a compact lamp format, but it is possible with some good design and engineering."

The MR16 retrofit LEDs all have heat sinks - that is, all I have seen. Heat sinks need moving air to dissipate heat. To some degree yes, there is also the opportunity for conduction though. Moving air requires volume and the volume inside most Landscape Lighting fixtures very limited. To some degree yes, there are larger body (internal volume) fixtures though (CopperMoon CM125, CAST CCTL1C, Nightscaping Vermeer, etc) and you are not giving any credit to the fact that there are a couple of LED lamps that do operate just fine in small fixtures like the Lumiere 203. They DO exist! The fixtures are designed to withstand high heat... not to dissipate it efficiently. Tree-mounted in a sunny spot late in the day and a hot, still night... or mounted on a west-facing masonry wall, I think the retrofitted LEDs will be subjected to relatively high heat levels. Higher levels than their designers envisioned.

I believe the retrofits will offer good service in climates that have significant cooling in the evenings and for clients who have engaged an installer of your caliber. That means, they have a well-designed control system will turn the lights off during the much warmer daytime. So, can we finally agree that my climate here in Ontario, from a temperature point of view is virtually the same as that of say 75% of the USA? I don't live in the Arctic you know! (No offense to Mike Murphy :) )

.... (just saving some space here )

I believe that LED's will come to dominate the landscape lighting market sometime in the not too distant future. I also believe that market will be smaller than it is now. How much smaller... make a guess. Hopefully not nearly as much shrinkage has taken place in the Landscape Lighting Market as has occured in the financial markets!

Much depends on the public's eventual acceptance of LED's. Right now, we are in the midst of a lot of consumer confusion - very similar to the awkward way CFL's were introduced about 15-20? years ago. Then, many claims about CFL's life and color were grossly overstated, wrong or outright lies. That market has finally matured and CFLs are taking hold. I hope the LED market will mature quickly and with much less catastrophe. I hope so too... which is why I devote so much time and attention to helping others understand the technology.

Expect an order soon. I will welcome it Tom. There are some new products coming on line soon. Really cool, innovative stuff. All tested and vetted and built to spec.

Thank You, No, thank you! I enjoy a good discourse now and then! :weightlifter:

Tom

Have a great day.