Charging too little for organic?

[lawncuttinfoo]

This year, because of a cheaper supply chain, I am able to offer my organic program at a very close price to my synthetic program, when last year it was close to double the price of synthetic.

Only thing I am afraid of is customers being afraid that my program is so much cheaper than all other organic/natural programs available they may think I am cutting corners.

Similar problems anyone?

[JDUtah]

What happens when that supply chain runs out? I wouldn't lower prices.

Take the extra profit and invest in future growth, better employees, etc...

[Smallaxe]

Definately maintain what you have. Now you have the luxury of 'psychological' discounts.
Anything you can do to boost the confidence of a customer - that's the next thing you do. You got lucky. :)

Is the turf actually improving now or are you simply maintaining , par with synthetics?

[NattyLawn]

Why not lower your prices? Explain to the customers in a letter with your contract/proposal that the supply chain has lowered your costs, making the organic program cheaper to your customers. You don't have to lower it to the synthetic, you still have to make a profit, but the customer is looking for VALUE, and you trying to pass that on to them is a good thing in their eyes....JMO..

[lawncuttinfoo]

Yes, I will definattly be lowering the prices, price was the major reason I did not have more signups than I did. Also this way I may eliminate the synthetic option all together.

[treegal1]

lower cost!!!!!!!!!

[HayBay]

Lawncuttinfoo how many square feet are you customers lawns.

[phasthound]

lower cost!!!!!!!!!

Pirates love skull & crossbones. :confused:

[treegal1]

I am going after some of the larger corporate shops this year............. and I am bringing me mates!!!

[lawncuttinfoo]

Lawncuttinfoo how many square feet are you customers lawns.

1,500-17,000 sq ft

why?

[heritage]

This year, because of a cheaper supply chain, I am able to offer my organic program at a very close price to my synthetic program, when last year it was close to double the price of synthetic.

Only thing I am afraid of is customers being afraid that my program is so much cheaper than all other organic/natural programs available they may think I am cutting corners.

Similar problems anyone?

Clients are Paying for Results and Service.

A true Organic product for lower cost to you?

Do your numbers and look at your Competition.........Then decide if you in fact deserve a Raise because you offer better service/results IMO.

If you want to pass the savings onto your Clients, that is your call.

Look at the Value of your service.....Do you deserve a Raise???

Pete

[JDUtah]

Oh man, this is scary. lol. Seriously though, I wouldn't lower prices. Read this article (http://www.nhada.com/docs/Innovating%20through%20Recession_ANDREW%20RAZEGHI_KELLOG%20SCHOOL%20OF%20MANAGEMENTdoc.pdf).

A part of it here...

Rather than reduce price, offer more value to your customers...

...price reductions do more than compromise earnings. They compromise customers’ perceived value of your products and services [your brand] which ultimately affects the long-term equity of the franchise. Therefore, rather than look to price reductions, add greater value to your customers. Extend them better terms. Improve the purchasing process. Get your products to them more quickly. Increase your cooperative marketing activities. Show them ways in which to better use your products to improve their lives. Do anything but reduce price.

This logic also extends to your relationship with your vendors. Rather than demand price reductions from your vendors – which ultimately translate into quality reductions – work with your supplier community to extract greater value. Insist that they deliver faster, be more innovative, find ways to cut costs in their operations (and to show you how they’ve done so), and invest in your growth agenda. Do as a client of mine did: sponsor a “stop doing contest” and offer awards. The idea is simple. Offer “rewards” for those who can find ways to reduce operating expenses, improve efficiencies, and eliminate redundant and costly processes that may help not only save money, but improve operations. There is only one caveat: other than the CEO, who has the unfortunate task of cutting jobs in some cases, you cannot. In other words, those who participate in “stop doing contest” must find ways through process, structure, and other avenues to reduce expenses. You can get creative about what winners will receive, but – my advice for more than one reason – is to stick to recognition over financial rewards. Much like getting in shape, people get creative when they have to. Lean on them – your vendors and your employees - to help you not only survive, but to thrive during these times. Let vendors innovate for you. One of the most often overlooked opportunities for innovation is to simply ask your vendors what they would do if they were you. Let them incur the cost of research. It is in their best interest to find the future for you.

[HayBay]

Thanks for replying back grasscuttinfoo.

For 17,000 sq ft. I would need 3 bags of organic product.
For 17,000 sq ft. I would need 3/4 bag of Synthetic Product.

Mind you I mostly maintain 15,000-135,000 sq ft yards.

and my point is carrying 3 times the product to do a job.

I have 1 client that requires 25 bags of organic fert for 1 application.
I make very little money on that job. The supplier makes the money.
25 x 50lb = 1250LBS to carry on the back of my vehicle/trailer.
Riding spreader.

We are talking real organic products.

I would love to learn a cheaper and lighter way to do this.

[treegal1]

cheaper yes!!! lighter not a chance!!!!! organic products are just more weight and volume

[Smallaxe]

cheaper yes!!! lighter not a chance!!!!! organic products are just more weight and volume

This would also be an opportunity to evaluate - Just how much N is required to replenish the supply in a good organic soil.

At least dump on the organics once a year. Late spring would be my choice. If you are not removing the clippings , and your soil is biologically active , and your watering is not extreme, I would think you could get by with something less than 4# of N/k per season.

Sometimes I do have to put down synthetics for a greener green, but so far once every 2 years , in the fall. I am working on that. :)

[humble1]

This year, because of a cheaper supply chain, I am able to offer my organic program at a very close price to my synthetic program, when last year it was close to double the price of synthetic.

Only thing I am afraid of is customers being afraid that my program is so much cheaper than all other organic/natural programs available they may think I am cutting corners.

Similar problems anyone?

I dont supose you want to give up that supply chain do ya?
You could pm me we arent in the same area:drinkup:

[Barefoot James]

Well maybe you should talk to ICT Bill. He has products like his hydro seed that 1 gallon will do 360,000 sq ft - cost about $70. Double the dose - fill up at the local fire pump and you tow 2000 lbs (assuming you have a 200 gal sprayer) several hundred yards - but to and from the job it you tow 1 gallon!!

Think about that - call Bill. 5 or 6 apps a year and you are adding myco - heck he has a bunch of other options too. So if you are looking for light weight or simplicity, in what you do, this might be a key product.

On the other hand at least once a year, you are going to have to get some bulk organic matter down - biosludge or protein meals (soy, alfalfa), a high quality humate (at least every few years - critical - humic, fulvic acids in bulk 20#'s per 1000 - I would do first year over all other ammendments) an organic fert or a high quality compost - mix it up year to year. These normally go about 20 lbs per 1000 so at 135,000 sq ft that would be 2700 pounds - usually in the fall. But you will be building the soil profile rather than doing nothing but having a green spring - I choose long term life and green in spring over weight and just green in spring. But that's just me.

[HayBay]

please help with the math:

90-3000-03 Gluten-8 OLP, Pallet (192 gallon
containers) $7,670.40 48.0"L x 40.0"W x 40.0"H
Add to Cart

• 1 - Pallet contains 192 gallon containers and
treats 768,000 square feet or 17.630 acres, call for
discount on pallets

$435 an acre for product costs alone buying by the skid and only supplying Nitrogen. 4 weeks max

about $140 an acre with liquid ParIII
another 140 for granular Synthetic fert 24-5-10 %30 slow release buying by the bag. 4-6 weeks release rate.

Are these products registered with the government.

[treegal1]

LOLOL. I am gona hang back on this one. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[HayBay]

did i mention the unbanning of stem cell research. hehe.

Those synthetic prices included application and product costs.

if Ric could read this now. LOL....................

[treegal1]

HayBay

To quote the infamous Lawrence Stone (who BTW called me this morning). "I hope you have a 5 ton truck and a fork lift to handle your organics"

99% of my accounts are 5,000 sg ft. or under. I top dress them with orgasmic material twice a year and sub the job out to guy with that 5 ton truck. This is done in early spring dry season as in now, to help with field capacity or water holding and again at the end of rainy season. Because my soil is sandy and high pH, the orgasmic material also helps lower pH and add chemical holding power(CEC). As a result I get more bang for my buck in both water and chemical response. But my yards would look horrible if I didn't use synthetics.

Even at my age I am open to change in the industry. Those who don't progress fall behind, and fortified Orgasmic do have a place. Unfortunately the cost of orgasmics compared to synthetics plays a big part in our economy today. At one time I was the highest priced guy in town, but I have not raised prices in two years. I have increased my customer because my price is more competitive. There may be a need for an all orgasmic program, BUT IS THERE A ENOUGH DEMAND AT THAT HIGHER PRICE???


that's so funny..... IT is what it is..............

[DUSTYCEDAR]

To each his own or her

[ICT Bill]

please help with the math:

90-3000-03 Gluten-8 OLP, Pallet (192 gallon
containers) $7,670.40 48.0"L x 40.0"W x 40.0"H
Add to Cart

• 1 - Pallet contains 192 gallon containers and
treats 768,000 square feet or 17.630 acres, call for
discount on pallets

$435 an acre for product costs alone buying by the skid and only supplying Nitrogen. 4 weeks max

about $140 an acre with liquid ParIII
another 140 for granular Synthetic fert 24-5-10 %30 slow release buying by the bag. 4-6 weeks release rate.

Are these products registered with the government.

Hay bay,
I agree completely on this point. It is very hard to cost justify the use of Corn Gluten meal when comparing to synthetic like dimension or ronstar, literally 10 times the cost

Its application is when you are on a completely organic program or the use of pesticides has been taken away as a tool. many cities and counties all over the US and Canada are restricting or banning altogether the use of pesticides. The first place the ban typically goes into effect is kindergarden thru 12 grade schools and there fields, good for them !
The pre-m capability of CGM has been well documented by iowa state university

Instant Compost Tea, is registered as a fertilizer in most states $ 0.67 per 1000 sq ft or $30.00 per acre

1-2-3 Tree, soil amendment for periennials, shrubs and trees, $0.20 per DBH or foot of shrub

1-2-3 Hydroseed, for overseeding and hydroseeding $0.002 per sq ft or $9.31 per acre or adding to the end of CT brewing for known beneficials

1-2-3 NPP, hydrolyzes (turns it to water) fungi on contact, made from crab shells, $0.58 per 1000 sq ft.

I would say those are some vey cost effective solutions for lawn and landscape

[Kiril]

This would also be an opportunity to evaluate - Just how much N is required to replenish the supply in a good organic soil.

At least dump on the organics once a year. Late spring would be my choice. If you are not removing the clippings , and your soil is biologically active , and your watering is not extreme, I would think you could get by with something less than 4# of N/k per season.

Sometimes I do have to put down synthetics for a greener green, but so far once every 2 years , in the fall. I am working on that. :)

I like to dump mine on in the fall and let the winter rains move the OM deeper into the soil profile.

[JDUtah]

and let the winter rains move the OM deeper into the soil profile.

???????????? :laugh:

[Marcos]

We've lost a few small to medium sized residentials this winter, but have picked up a handsome three-year municipal contract that'll makes up most of the difference.

No...the profit's no where near the same, but the opportunity to have tremendous amounts of exposure time in and around the busier parts of town will more than make up for it, marketing wise, in the long run.

[HayBay]

I hope i did not hijack this thread with my questions . I do appreciate the replys.

[Marcos]

Hay bay,
I agree completely on this point. It is very hard to cost justify the use of Corn Gluten meal when comparing to synthetic like dimension or ronstar, literally 10 times the cost

Its application is when you are on a completely organic program or the use of pesticides has been taken away as a tool. many cities and counties all over the US and Canada are restricting or banning altogether the use of pesticides. The first place the ban typically goes into effect is kindergarden thru 12 grade schools and there fields, good for them !
The pre-m capability of CGM has been well documented by iowa state university

Instant Compost Tea, is registered as a fertilizer in most states $ 0.67 per 1000 sq ft or $30.00 per acre

1-2-3 Tree, soil amendment for periennials, shrubs and trees, $0.20 per DBH or foot of shrub

1-2-3 Hydroseed, for overseeding and hydroseeding $0.002 per sq ft or $9.31 per acre or adding to the end of CT brewing for known beneficials

1-2-3 NPP, hydrolyzes (turns it to water) fungi on contact, made from crab shells, $0.58 per 1000 sq ft.

I would say those are some vey cost effective solutions for lawn and landscape


Not a bad per acre price, assuming the overall effectiveness is comparable to the 60% corn gluten sold locally.

We've gotten to the point now in the lion's share of the repeat customers lawns that we just use CGM around hard surface perimeters like sidewalk edges.
We live and breathe to our customers & prospects the philosophy of crowding out potential weed problems, with the gradual construction of dense, healthy turf.

[Smallaxe]

I like to dump mine on in the fall and let the winter rains move the OM deeper into the soil profile.

Our winter 'rains' are starting to soak in right about now. At the bottom of the hollows. :laugh:

[ICT Bill]

Not a bad per acre price, assuming the overall effectiveness is comparable to the 60% corn gluten sold locally.

We've gotten to the point now in the lion's share of the repeat customers lawns that we just use CGM around hard surface perimeters like sidewalk edges.
We live and breathe to our customers & prospects the philosophy of crowding out potential weed problems, with the gradual construction of dense, healthy turf.

Marcos
You make an excellent post

Rather than covering the entire property with CGH you can go after the typical areas that will promote weeds. sidewalks and driveways that are edged, disturbanaces where there are open soil areas

If you are covering 4.5 acres with the application we have a 10% discount. This is what we call a small pallet (48 gallons packed 4 to a carton), it more than covers the freight

[bicmudpuppy]

I like to dump mine on in the fall and let the winter rains move the OM deeper into the soil profile.

Glad I still have my dictionary. What they call rain around here comes sometime between Aug and Oct, and it MIGHT look like 4-5" w/ another 1" "sprinkled" here and there during the non "winter" months. Add another 2" for snow melt and you get the 7-8" that is historical here (weather service says we should get almost 12" ROFLMAO). Do you think 16-24" of snow melt would "rain in" the product?

[Smallaxe]

Glad I still have my dictionary. What they call rain around here comes sometime between Aug and Oct, and it MIGHT look like 4-5" w/ another 1" "sprinkled" here and there during the non "winter" months. Add another 2" for snow melt and you get the 7-8" that is historical here (weather service says we should get almost 12" ROFLMAO). Do you think 16-24" of snow melt would "rain in" the product?

Rain in vs washing away is what we keep an eye on around here. Once the grass is warm and growing we rely on it to hold the soil as well as the topdressings.
IMO, everything needs to be in the soil profile b4 the ground freezes. Especially compost.

Right now as the snow is melting we can see, clay, silt, and OM sitting on top of the snow. Moreso in the valleys where the water is running under and through the snow , but there it is. All these things floating up to the top of snow. In places where it busts free it can pollute somewhere else.

[Kiril]

Glad I still have my dictionary. What they call rain around here comes sometime between Aug and Oct, and it MIGHT look like 4-5" w/ another 1" "sprinkled" here and there during the non "winter" months. Add another 2" for snow melt and you get the 7-8" that is historical here (weather service says we should get almost 12" ROFLMAO). Do you think 16-24" of snow melt would "rain in" the product?

In your area I would say the irrigation is your "rain" more than anything. If water is moving through the profile, then it is moving the product as well. If the potential for runoff is high then any product application is probably not a good idea. Given your soils, I would bet getting compost into the profile is far easier than it is here, where I am dealing with clay contents of 45-55%.

My area, winter = rain ..... no snow, and no freezing. The more applied compost that moves into the profile before spring, the better, especially with the tight soils. Beyond that, for turf, the compost application is part of the yearly over seed + aeration (when needed), so the timing of it works well.

[lawncuttinfoo]

Oh man, this is scary. lol. Seriously though, I wouldn't lower prices. Read this article (http://www.nhada.com/docs/Innovating%20through%20Recession_ANDREW%20RAZEGHI_KELLOG%20SCHOOL%20OF%20MANAGEMENTdoc.pdf).

A part of it here...

Thanks for that, I agree customer confidence is a major factor, but I also want to increase my current 15% penetration rate.

Even with increased labor costs figured in, pricing would be ~$10 less per app (5-7 apps/year)on the averare size lawn this year with my supplier.

I'm now considering splitting the difference and knocking off ~$5 per app.
To maintain confidence in the application and also increase confidence that I am passing down the savings.

[HayBay]

Another question if you dont mind
[quote]
90-2007-03 1 2 3 Instant Compost Tea, Large pallet
(192 units) $11,510.40 48.0"L x 40.0"W x 48.0"H Add to Cart

What does it cost?

Did you know it only costs $0.0067 per square foot to treat. That's only $1.67 for the average yard. With an Organic NPK of 2-0-2
Cost effective is an understatement
[quote/]

$6.7 cents per 1000 ft sq at an npk ratio of 2-0-2

How many pounds of Nitrogen per 1000 ft2 is being supplied to the lawn in 1 application of Compost Tea at the prices quoted above.

Would 4 lbs of N per year be a fair requirment on a lawn for 1 year?

An example : 20 Lbs per 1000 ft2 of granular CGM 9-0-0 is equal to 2 lbs of Nitrogen per application from my calculations.


Thanks.

[bicmudpuppy]

I keep seeing everyone talk about 4#'s of N/m. Where does this number come from besides a synthetic guide from a text book? I am reading about a lot of golf courses who are backing KB down to 2#'s in rough areas that are being maintained at 2-3" HOC. That is w/o the benefit of an "organic" program. The trend is to reduce the inputs across the board and it is working! My bentgrass mowed at <.250" HOC still needs between .5 and 1 #of N/m per month during the growing season, but that is an extreme case and still isn't 6#/m per year with a 8-9 month growing season.

My point would be that many should be seeing VERY healthy lawns with 2#N/m from organic inputs in short growing seasons and even the year round southern contractors might get by on that 4#N/m.

[Kiril]

I keep seeing everyone talk about 4#'s of N/m. Where does this number come from besides a synthetic guide from a text book?

Probably the same place 1" of water/week comes from. :nono:

I am reading about a lot of golf courses who are backing KB down to 2#'s in rough areas that are being maintained at 2-3" HOC. That is w/o the benefit of an "organic" program. The trend is to reduce the inputs across the board and it is working! My bentgrass mowed at <.250" HOC still needs between .5 and 1 #of N/m per month during the growing season, but that is an extreme case and still isn't 6#/m per year with a 8-9 month growing season.

This is the reason why I have always advocated fertilization based on need, not a generic program. Plant response is a pretty clear indicator of what is needed .... fertilize based on what the plant asks for, not what your local Lesco tells you it needs.

My point would be that many should be seeing VERY healthy lawns with 2#N/m from organic inputs in short growing seasons and even the year round southern contractors might get by on that 4#N/m.

I agree, which is the reason why I can get away with a compost only program with no additional inputs. The N that comes with my compost is sufficient to maintain a thick, healthy stand of turf at low-moderate growth rates for the entire growing season (9-10 months).

[ICT Bill]

Another question if you dont mind
90-2007-03 1 2 3 Instant Compost Tea, Large pallet
(192 units) $11,510.40 48.0"L x 40.0"W x 48.0"H Add to Cart

What does it cost?

Did you know it only costs $0.0067 per square foot to treat. That's only $1.67 for the average yard. With an Organic NPK of 2-0-2
Cost effective is an understatement

$6.7 cents per 1000 ft sq at an npk ratio of 2-0-2

How many pounds of Nitrogen per 1000 ft2 is being supplied to the lawn in 1 application of Compost Tea at the prices quoted above.

Would 4 lbs of N per year be a fair requirment on a lawn for 1 year?

An example : 20 Lbs per 1000 ft2 of granular CGM 9-0-0 is equal to 2 lbs of Nitrogen per application from my calculations.
Thanks.

It is not 6 dollars and 70 cents, it is sixty seven cents per 1000

We do not play the NPK game, the NPK is listed because it is a labeling requirement in every state. We are trying, over a time period, to inoculate the soil and plants with beneficials that supply nutrients and fight pathogens allowing much less inputs for long term health

You are correct on the granular/bagged CGM calculation, roughly 2# of N per 1000 at that rate

Our liquid CGM (Gluten-8) is 1.5% N. We reduced the N in order to be compliant to many states that do not allow more than 1# of N per application

[HayBay]

Ya Bill i meant $.67 cents not 6bucks. That was a typo on my part.

Reducing N would save lots of money.

[Smallaxe]

Glad to see reduced inputs becoming a fad.

Only as long as it is a fad that works. :)

[ICT Bill]

Glad to see reduced inputs becoming a fad.

Only as long as it is a fad that works. :)

Spoon feeding is a good word for it, works great

[TMGL&L]

Clients are Paying for Results and Service.

A true Organic product for lower cost to you?

Do your numbers and look at your Competition.........Then decide if you in fact deserve a Raise because you offer better service/results IMO.

If you want to pass the savings onto your Clients, that is your call.

Look at the Value of your service.....Do you deserve a Raise???

Pete

Oh man, this is scary. lol. Seriously though, I wouldn't lower prices. Read this article (http://www.nhada.com/docs/Innovating%20through%20Recession_ANDREW%20RAZEGHI_KELLOG%20SCHOOL%20OF%20MANAGEMENTdoc.pdf).

A part of it here...


I agree with what some of the guys said earlier. Lowering prices is like the easy way out. It hurts the industry as a whole when everyone is under cutting each other. I know its best to be economical, however, never lower prices unless you have to.

I hardly look at my competitor's pricing when I bid on properties. It sounds crazy but I concentrate on what my goals are and what it really costs. One time when I was geeking out over a price qoute old successful landscaper gave me the advice " just charge what it costs."

If you lower your prices offer more and penetrate don't lower prices unless they seem like they will drop you for a cheaper contractor.

sorry to jump in so late but I couldn't help myself :)