Do You Make Em Pay Up Front???

[bad_chad48]

HELLO ONCE AGAIN...

I AM ABOUT TO DO A JOB THAT IS 2.75 ACRES INWHICH I AM GOING TO HAVE TO DIG UP WHAT GRASS IS THERE AND PUT 12 TONS OF LIME, ALMOST 1200LBS OF FURTILIZER AND APROX 350LBS OF SEED. USING A TRACTOR FOR 5 TO 8 HRS IN WHICH I WILL BE RENTING FOR A GRAND TOTAL FOR ALL OF AROUND $1500.
THIS IS A NEW CUSTOMER (A PREACHER) AND I DO NOT HAVE THAT KIND OF MONEY TO BE THROWING AROUND... SHOULD I HAVE HIM PAY UP FRONT? AND HOW SHOULD I ASK FOR THAT KIND OF MONEY BECAUSE I AM NEW TO HIM TOO?
THANKS

[LAWNGODFATHER]

WHY?

Explain why you are doing this?

[1grnlwn]

Half before you start (cash before you start) Half on completion. Preachers can cheat people too.

Mark

[bad_chad48]

THIS HOUSE IS LOCATED IN A NEW SUBDIVISION BUILT IN A LARGE FIELD... ABOUT HALF OF THE YARD IS STILL FIELD AND THE OTHER HALF IS DIRT FROM WHERE THEY LEFT IT FROM THE CONSTRUCTION... THIS GUY STOPPED ME WHILE I WAS PASSING OUT FLYERS AND HIRED ME ON THE SPOT TO MAKE HIS PLACE LOOK GOOD. FIRST THING I DID WAS TAKE A SOIL SAMPLE AND THEN WAITED FOR THE RESULTS. NOW THAT I HAVE THE RESULTS..I KNEW WHERE I WAS STANDING. NOW, I HAVE TO BEAT THE CLOCK AS FAR AS GETTING THIS GUY A YARD THAT WE BOTH CAN BE PROUD OF.. I HAVE TO BREAK UP THE SOIL AROUND THE HOUSE SO THAT I HAVE A NEW START AS FAR AS SEEDING AND THEN RE-SEED THE FIELD SO THAT IT IS A YARD AND NOT A FIELD.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

This calls for 24,000 pounds of lime?

That's 200 pounds of lime per 1000 sq ft.

This calls for 1,200 of fert?

I don't know where you got $1500 for the whole job, but I got $1,190 just for seed at the proper rate.

$476 for starter fert at the proper rate.

[KirbysLawn]

Dude, you need to tell the preacher to find someone else because you have no idea what you are doing. You are putting down 3 times as much fertilizer than you should, 4 times a much lime, and not enought seed. What was the pH from your soil test?

[bad_chad48]

according to the results from the soil test...
I NEED 200 LBS/1000SQ FT LIME
N 1.0 TO 1.5 LBS/1000SQ FT
P 3 TO 5 LBS/1000SQ FT
K 3 TO 5 LBS/1000SQ FT

I WILL BE PUTTING ON
300 LBS 46 00 00
600 LBS 18 46 00
300 LBS 00 00 60
FOR A TOTAL
1200 LBS

THEN 350 LBS OF TALL FESCUE MIX
4 TONS PER ACRE = 12 TONS LIME

I HAVE CHECKED ON PRICES FOR ALL AND THE PRICE THAT I HAVE LISTED IS CORRECT..

pH total was 5.1
buffer pH: 6.2

[LAWNGODFATHER]

You need 476 pounds of 18-24-12, applied in 2 applications.

Then put it on a fert program.

Seed at 8 pounds per 1000 = 952 pounds that's for slit seeding.

I posted my starter fert wrong in the last post. 476 pounds not dollars.

10=50# bags = $100.

4 pounds of N per a year not one application. You have 5.65 pounds going down in one app.

[bad_chad48]

reset

[KirbysLawn]

Lime should never be applied over 50 pounds per 1000 in one application, 200 pounds will dry like concreate. The ph is low but should not need 200 pounds per k. you have appx 108,000 sf land, again your seed rate is way low, you will hardly have any grass, just as LGF said you will need 850-900 pounds of seed, 476 pounds of started fert, and 50 pounds lime per k of land.

Again, this is a serious job at a serious expense to the customer, if you have not done something like this before walk away and let someone else do it. Start small and work your way up.

[KirbysLawn]

Originally posted by bad_chad48
this seed's recomendation is 100 lbs per acre...
so i do not see how i am not putting enough seed down?
100 lbs times 3 acres = 300 lbs hmm well

That is 0.435 pounds per 1000, what kind of seed? Also is that the seed rate for new establishment or overseeding?

I see you plan on charging $1500, I have your cost to be at $1300 before you include tractor rental and probabally 2 days labor, fuel, chiroparactor, and so on....

I have roughly figured my charge for a job like that to my suggested applications would be around $3000. Good luck with whatever you do.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Originally posted by bad_chad48
this seed's recomendation is 100 lbs per acre...
so i do not see how i am not putting enough seed down?
100 lbs times 3 acres = 300 lbs hmm well I am putting down 116lbs per acre..???
and as far as fertilizer?
yes, i am putting the lime on heavy but that is what it calls for...

my cost for fert and seed will be $650... spread...
lime $8 per ton... spread...
tractor $100

Sorry dude, we are trying to help you.

100lbs of seed per 43,560 sq/ft is .435 pounds per 1000 sq/ft. Seeding a new lawn calls for at least 8 pounds per 1000 in a slit seeder, so if you are broadcasting it, you will be required to triple that amount.

You will need 352 pounds of seed per an acre for slit seeding.

The starter at 18-24-12 is a great starter fert not AG fert like you listed.

At $96 to spread lime, where is there room for profit?

The lime will takes years to apply. As Kirby said and I thought the same you will have concrete when it gets wet.

From looking at your test I don't see why you're even applying lime.

[bad_chad48]

as you were.... I appoligize for snapping at you... but what you guys are telling me is pretty much what i had figured the first time that i set down and give the estimate... but this is the first time that i had to use a soil sample and the county extention agent... told me that I was pretty much crazy for what I and (you) was saying... he is the one that gave me those figures for fertilizer and seed....!!! I appoligize and thank you for the input!!! let me get what I had figured in the first place and run that by you... scratch what I posted above.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Ok. No problem dude.:D

What you had posted was leading to imediate failure, in my professional opinion.

[bad_chad48]

whole property=2.75 acres

SEED
bare ground = 1.35 acres at 10 lbs per 1000 sq ft = 590LBS

field= 1.5 acres at 6lbs per 1000 sq ft = 396 LBS

TOTAL=989 LBS SEED

$1404

FERTILIZER
I WAS FIGURING ON USING 10 10 10 BUT THAT WAS BEFORE I GOT THE RESULTS ON THE SOIL TEST

LIME
I WAS NOT FIGURING ON USING LIME... BUT THAT TOO WAS BEFORE I GOT THE RESULTS...

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Now for a price, how are you going to do it?

Same as above?

Aeration?

Slit seeding?

Or?

Mine would be $2856, for slit seeding or aeration and over-seeding.

Include Fert and seed plus the method.

BTW go smack that AG guy up-side his head. 24k# of lime.:confused:

Also try and get a 50% deposit, we don't want to forget that part also.

[1grnlwn]

You could try just cutting and weed-n-feed the field part. You may be suprised what grass may be lurking under those weeds.

[bad_chad48]

i am going to scratch the surface of the dirt w/a tractor using a 3pt hitch drag rake. then i am going to spread the seed and fert mixed together (actually) have it spread using a truck w/ spreader on back... then come back over again with tractor and lightly barry the seed and fert.. i am still working out the new price scale...

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Don't mix the seed and fert together.

The seed requires a larger setting to spread than the fert does.

Also this will produce bad results

Spread the seed first, then sepratly spread the fert, then you can drag it in.

Good luck dude, but remember you have $1500 or so in expences so get as close to over double that as you can.

[bad_chad48]

ok... but about the furtilizer that you recomended above... how is it going to react towards the soil sample that i have listed above? and how much per 1000 sq ft?

[65hoss]

I'm gonna stay out of the $$ and material amounts because Ray and LGF are all over that. You guys are correct.

I'm am going to ask why a tractor? Why not us an aerator or if you plan to pull a rake, why not find one that you can pull with your mower? Why go to the cost of a tractor?

[bad_chad48]

I want you guys to look over my math work and tel me why I am coming up with diffrent figures than you all... I have been up for 4 hours trying to figure it out... earlier, you said that i am putting to much fertilizer down ...
in order to figure out how much fert per 1000sq ft
my property is 2.75 acres so 2.75 * 43560 = 119790
then to figure how many 1000 sq ft I have, 119790 / 1000= 119.79
so that means I have 119.79 (1000 sq ft)
ex.
you have a 50 lb bag of 46 0 0 fertilizer
to find the N ratio
you multiply 50 by .46 to get 23lbs of N in a 50lb bag
well if I was going to put 300 lbs of this fertilizer on 2.75 acres..
23 * 6 =138lbs of N in 300lbs of this Fert...
then to find out how much (N) I would be putting down over 2.75 acres (which is 119.79 {1000 sq ft}) I would divide
138lbs of (N) by 119.79
138/119.79= 1.15 lbs of (N) per 1000sq ft. RIGHT????
-for 600lbs of 18 46 0, on the same property. I get
108lbs of (N); 276lbs of (P); and 0lbs of (K) which total per 1000sqft .90lb for (N), 2.30lb for (P) and 0lb for (K)
-for my 300lbs of 0 0 60: there is 180lbs of (K)
which total 180/ 119.79= 1.50lbs of (K) per 1000sq ft

ok now to add all of that mess up
(N) (P) (K)
300lbs of 46 0 0
600lbs of 18 46 0 using the figures from above
300lbs of 0 0 60

(N) (P) (K)
138 0 0
108 276 0
+0 0 180
-----------------------
246 276 180


for (N) 246/ 119.79 {ammount of 1000sq ft} = 2.05lbs/1000sq ft
for (P) 276/ 119.79 = 2.30lbs/1000sq ft
for (K) 180/ 119.79 = 1.50lbs/1000sq ft
my soil test says that I need
(N) 1 to 1.5 lbs per 1000sq ft........ well I am a little high here
(P) 3 to 5 lbs per 1000sq ft............ tad bit low
(K) 3 to 5 lbs per 1000sq ft............ tad bit low here too

I just wanted to know where I messed up in my math because I may have done so .... but I am not seeing where I have 5.65lbs of (N) being spread?
just askin not trying to pi$$ anyone off

[bad_chad48]

as far as the seed: I will be planting a MIx of fescue...
it has 3 diffrent types
it is called FESCUE STATESMAN TURRF TYPE
HAS Sothern Choice, Falcon II, and Rebel all mixed together

and as far as the areator.... i do not have access to one... well, I take that back... I have one of those areators from sears... you know the ones that have the flat spikes, but I do not think it will be as effective as using this rake... this way, I can barry the seed a little.

[awm]

if the guys got a water system installed [dont sound like it]u might be alright. if not
id go rye mostly and plan on overseeding in the fall.
the mix mentioned is high priced seed to watch die in the heat,this summer.
also if u like u can twist the tines on the spiker aereator,
so they act as little spades or sharp shooters.
i use this at times . itll be a big improvement on the spiker.
put plenty of weight on it an cement caulk your blocks togather.
i use the solid 4 inch concrete blocks .

[KirbysLawn]

Chad, first unless you have ideal conditions and rain I would not do this job until early fall. Fescue planted in spring will have little time to develop a good root system to survive the heat of summer. Any more drought and the lawn is toast.

Second I would never put out a 46-0-0 fertilizer on a new lawn, just as LGF has stated a good starter fertilizer like 18-24-12 will give you a good n-p-k balance. Soil testing is great, however you can't fix it all at once! If the P and K are low it's best to do a second application of starter 4-6 weeks later, then make the next fertilizing a good slow release.

LGF also made a good statement, smack the ag guy. And third, one must know his limits. I personally think this job is too big for you, you don't really know how to do it, and you don't have the proper equipment to get the job done. Those 3 are a mixture for lawn failure.

And finally, are you prepaired to pay to redo the lawn if it's not done correctly the first time? Remember, your expences are around $1300 not including labor or rental fees, are you prepaired to spend that again to do it over? Do you have a liability policy that will cover the lawn you damage it?

What ever the final charges are to the customer I'm sure it will be their hard earned money also, make sure it's not wasted.

[AGG Lawn Maintenance]

My advice is not to attack you in anyway but................ If your figures are coming up a lot different then everyone else’s I would either sub out the work to another company, or not take on the job. One thing I never do is take on something I can't or I don't do. I my case cutting big trees. I would rather pass the money up. I by no means am trying to discourage you but take my advise for what it's worth. Remember everything you do reflects on your name. One happy customer will tell one person but an unhappy customer will tell three. You sure don't want that!!!! I would keep on doing my research. Listen to your fellow Lawnsite.com members. As my grandfather (a Mason for 40 years) once said" after 40 years in the business I'm still learning"
I feel the same way after 14 years. As blunt as members might be at times this sight is still a wealth of knowledge. Hands on experience is better than any book and learning through other peoples experiences is excellent. You don't want to make a costly mistake because it will come out of your pocket not the customers. I won't reiterate what Unlce Kirby said but he's right.
I don't think anyone here wants to see you fail Chad.
Travis

[bad_chad48]

ok guys... this is what I cam up with.... HOW DOES IT SOUND?
LIME FOR YARD...spread... 5 TONS at $8.00 a ton= $40 + $40 markup
FERTILIZER FOR YARD: I KNOW THAT YOU SAID TO USE 18 24 12
BUT I THINK THIS FERT WILL WORK BETTER... IF NOT PLEASE TELL ME...
600 LBS OF 18 46 0
300 LBS OF 0 0 60

FOR A TOTAL PRICE OF $88.95 + $279.65 MARKUP

SEED: 900 LBS OF FESCUE MIX AT $1.35 LB = $1215 + $400 MARKUP

TRACTOR AND RAKE COST $100 CHARGE $120

TOTAL COST IS $1463.95 I AM CHARGING $2183.61
MARKUP OF $719.66 + MY LABOR $20 HR

THEN I WILL DEMAND A DEPOSIT OF $$1200 WITH REMAINING DUE AFTER COMPLETION.:blob3:

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Chad spread lime at 16# per 1000 = 1904# If you so choose.

Spread starter fert, (please don't use the AG fert. I can't explain why on here. will take hours) at 4# per 1000 = 476# Do a second app 30 days later. Then get it on a slow release program.

Spread seed at 8# per 1000 = 952#

Costs mark up should be at least 2.5 times minimum. This is why there have been so may LCO's go out of biz.

Now as Hoss said I have to agree that aeration is better than a landscape rake. You may be able to rent one for less than the $100 for the tractor.

Lime $200

Seed $3213

Fert 1st app $952 2nd app $952

Total $5317 this will make you a good profit even if you have to go it 2 times.

That's off "your" costs not mine.

Good luck Chad.:angel:

[KirbysLawn]

Originally posted by bad_chad48
LIME FOR YARD...spread... 5 TONS at $8.00 a ton= $40 + $40 markup
FERTILIZER FOR YARD: I KNOW THAT YOU SAID TO USE 18 24 12
BUT I THINK THIS FERT WILL WORK BETTER... IF NOT PLEASE TELL ME...

Hummmm...... Chad no offence but you have not grasped this yet, the best advise given is to walk, no run away from this project.

Lets look: you are buying lime for $8 a ton? And you are going to charge $40 to spread 5 tons on lime?? Please tell me you arn't serious?

You state "I THINK THIS FERT WILL WORK BETTER... IF NOT PLEASE TELL ME", we have...several times now.

I for one have tried to help, you seem determined to do this so go for it. I would love to see photos of you spreading 5 ton of lime for $40, I just spread 500 pounds and got $77.00. IF you do this job you will be diging an unbelavable hole for yourself.

[lawrence stone]

Frankly I have no idea why any of you even responded to this message in the first place.

It's a shame that many of you have nothing to do all day long.

I spent my day getting my equipment ready for the up coming season for it was in the 60's and sunny at my location.

I suggest you guy’s start getting your own house in order and stop trying to help someone that is obviously not a qualified contractor.

[KirbysLawn]

Already done Stone, all oil is changed and work is caught up, thanks for your concern.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

We started work March 1st.

[parkwest]

This guy must be related to the guy who started his thread "I don't have a clue what I'm doing" (something like that) then argued with every person who tried to help him.

[KirbysLawn]

That's true Parkwest, I forgot about that thread. Wonder where it is? LOL