Leaf Compost

[Pistol]

To all of the compost experts, is a compost made entirely of leaf material a suitable product for top dressing? I am having a hard time finding a certified source - I found one - about an hour away @ $25/yd. Local leaf compost is $19/yd.

Thanks, Pistol

[Smallaxe]

Go local. Leaf compost is OM broken down from many different environments and from nutrients grabbed from deep in the soil. Anything composts into something useful. Even cow manure...

[JDUtah]

What about humans? ;)

[Smallaxe]

What about humans? ;)

Fine... Just be sure to buy locally, for the economic situation. :)

[JDUtah]

Fine... Just be sure to buy locally, for the economic situation. :)

haha deal.

[NattyLawn]

I just looked at the local municipal compost made from leaves. It has no fungal activity, but decent bacterial counts if you're one of those "Lawns are bacterial, trees are fungal" types of people. And at $10 bucks a yard you can't beat it. Use the local source!

[Kiril]

I just looked at the local municipal compost made from leaves. It has no fungal activity, but decent bacterial counts if you're one of those "Lawns are bacterial, trees are fungal" types of people. And at $10 bucks a yard you can't beat it. Use the local source!

Should not matter if the compost is fungal or bacterial. Unless your site is biologically dead (highly unlikely), the local microflora will use what is applied.

[Tim Wilson]

Should not matter if the compost is fungal or bacterial. Unless your site is biologically dead (highly unlikely), the local microflora will use what is applied.

OR

unless you are using the compost to make compost tea with fungi in it (as something important to the user)

[Pistol]

Thanks to everyone - I will be using the local leaf compost mixed with some worm poo.

Thanks again, Pistol

[NattyLawn]

OR

unless you are using the compost to make compost tea with fungi in it (as something important to the user)

Thanks Tim....

[phasthound]

I'm able to pick up leaf compost at one town for $9.00/yard. My home town delivers it for free to residents. :)

I suppose I should have bioassays done on them.

[cudaclan]

Is there a risk of seeds germinating? Maple seeds overunned my pile and required hand weeding. I would still use the material as mulch.

[Kiril]

OR

unless you are using the compost to make compost tea with fungi in it (as something important to the user)

Must be insider knowledge ... didn't know he was using it for CT as well. :)

To all of the compost experts, is a compost made entirely of leaf material a suitable product for top dressing?

[quackgrass]

One thing you should consider is the pH of the leaf compost. It commonly has the highest pH and sometimes it can be too high. (unless you suffer from low pH)

Its better used as an organic soil amendment - to retain moisture, than a nutritional source, since it has very little. Its closer to a peat than a bio-solid.

If you have higher pH soils, (7+) I wouldn't recommend it for most lawns or plants needing lower pH. It will actually harm them.

Some leaf composts will raise the soil pH one point or more.

[Kiril]

If you have higher pH soils, (7+) I wouldn't recommend it for most lawns or plants needing lower pH. It will actually harm them.

Some leaf composts will raise the soil pH one point or more.

This doesn't quite sit right with me. Granted some composts can be above neutral, but to raise the soil pH a full unit .... I'm not following that. Do you have some references?

[quackgrass]

This doesn't quite sit right with me. Granted some composts can be above neutral, but to raise the soil pH a full unit .... I'm not following that. Do you have some references?

http://ohioline.osu.edu/sc157/sc157_14.html

Note that it mentions this happened with a particular source of leaf compost - not all.

I have gathered hundreds, if not thousands of samples of various composts in the North West. My experience has been that leaf compost tends to have the highest pH unless it contains a lot of conifer needles.

[LTL]

I checked with a company here that sells leaf compost and the pH of their compost is 7.5. A little high for me.

[Kiril]

Thanks for the link. :)

http://ohioline.osu.edu/sc157/sc157_14.html

Note that it mentions this happened with a particular source of leaf compost - not all.

Note that is also happened in a very specific type of soil too, and that the effect was transitory.
Also note how in all cases except 1 (Comtil Compost) the pH tended towards neutral over time.

Couple of things that jumped out at me on the quick read through.

-- SOM of >20% in year 3! Not a condition you are likely to see very often in your typical mineral soil. IMO, most people are not going to add 4" of compost in a 2 year period to any site (TG withstanding).

-- The compost was rototilled in to a 6" depth. Once again, this is not something most people do. A Compost topdress is the typical method of application, at best coupled with an aeration for turf. If a complete site overhaul is in order, then a rototill may take place.

-- No pH values were given for the compost and the initial soil test results were somewhat lacking in information nor were they given for each test period.

-- The sources of the leaf compost were not disclosed, or at least I did not see them.

-- One last thing, no indication of whether or not irrigation took place which could affect soil pH.

No offense intended, but you need to be very careful with blanket statements (or nearly so) as the potential for misunderstanding is way too high. IMHO, most people would have walked away from your post with the conclusion that leaf compost = bad in all soils with pH neutral or higher and in all conditions of use. We both know this is hardly true.

Some info I pulled out of my archive in the event you are interested. Shows leaf composts can range from pH 4.3-8.

http://www.aqua-enviro.net/pdf/Leaf%20Composting%20Final%20Report.pdf

[quackgrass]

No offense intended, but you need to be very careful with blanket statements (or nearly so) as the potential for misunderstanding is way too high. IMHO, most people would have walked away from your post with the conclusion that leaf compost = bad in all soils with pH neutral or higher and in all conditions of use. We both know this is hardly true.


Blanket statement? - ouch. I thought I had brought up an import consideration. The link was posted because you were skeptical of leaf compost raising pH. My opinion on the matter is based on what I have seen - not read from a link. so disputing one study won't change my mind.

I would hope that people walked away aware of a possibility that leaf compost can have a high pH, and it may not be suitable as a topdressing material in high pH soils. Other products would certainly be more effective.

If anything my comments helped people make a more informed decision. It offered a means to raise pH or avoid it.

I certainly wouldn't want someone putting a high pH material on my soil if the pH needed to go down!

Are you saying that Leaf compost is always a suitable topdressing material?

[Kiril]

Blanket statement? - ouch. I thought I had brought up an import consideration.

You absolutely did ... but the way it was presented could lead to confusion. It is a dynamic of this forum more than anything. At times people read what they want to see, not what is written. The first impression I got from your post was, leaf compost is bad, and if I were looking to make a decision to use or not, that is the answer I would have walked away with. Just so you know, I'm not looking for an argument here, I just wanted you to clarify the information you had presented.

The link was posted because you were skeptical of leaf compost raising pH. My opinion on the matter is based on what I have seen - not read from a link. so disputing one study won't change my mind.

I am still skeptical because what is true for you may not be true for me, or for anyone else outside your region. What are the reasons for the change in soil pH and is it even due to the leaf compost?
Is this something that is specific to your regions leaf sources and soil, or is it something that can be extended to all sources and soils?

Leaf composts vary in pH and a soils ability to buffer pH changes will dictate how much of an impact any amendment will have on the overall pH of the system. Generally speaking, OM will tend to move pH towards neutrality over time in a mineral soil as well as increase the soils ability to buffer changes in pH. This is probably the most important relationship between SOM and pH people need to walk away with here.

I would hope that people walked away aware of a possibility that leaf compost can have a high pH, and it may not be suitable as a topdressing material in high pH soils. Other products would certainly be more effective.

If anything my comments helped people make a more informed decision. It offered a means to raise pH or avoid it.

I certainly wouldn't want someone putting a high pH material on my soil if the pH needed to go down!

I applaud informed decisions. :clapping:

I think the question we need to ask is if a leaf compost is your only source, will 1/8" - 1/4" topdressing once or twice a year lead to a long term detrimental pH change? I don't believe it will, and the benefits from OM addition in this case (leaf compost) will far outweigh the potential chance of a short term undesirable pH change.

Irrigation water can also lead to an undesirable pH change (and other undesirable conditions), but that doesn't mean you won't use it to water your plants.

Are you saying that Leaf compost is always a suitable topdressing material?

If that is your only source of bulk organic matter .... I would probably say yes, it is, with adjustments if needed. Amend it with sulfur or some other appropriate source of acidity if the pH is too high. Given the most likely low N, you will probably want to amend it before applying anyhow.

We are not talking composts high in salts, heavy metals, and other toxics here, but a relatively "safe" compost in comparison to some of the other choices. In most cases it will be leaves from local sources, which IMO use of which is not much different than just letting the leaves stay where they fall, or mulching them back into the turf when cutting.

[Pistol]

We do have high PH clay soil in this area. We just put down a lot of lime every year!

[Kiril]

We do have high PH clay soil in this area. We just put down a lot of lime every year!

If you are concerned about using the leaf compost, then test it, as you would typically apply, on your yard and monitor soil pH in your effective root zone to see if it results in a major shift in pH. You would really need to monitor this for a least a full year if not 2-3, to really get a good picture of how your soils will respond to a leaf compost top dressing program.

Personally, dealing with soils high in clay content and pH in my region, I would not hesitate to use a leaf compost as a top dressing.

[bicmudpuppy]

We do have high PH clay soil in this area. We just put down a lot of lime every year!

I don't want anyone to think I am picking on THIS post, but it is the 4th or 5th reference I have noticed to using lime to LOWER PH???? Sulfur to lower, Lime to raise. Why do I keep seeing this quoted backwards?

[Kiril]

I don't want anyone to think I am picking on THIS post, but it is the 4th or 5th reference I have noticed to using lime to LOWER PH???? Sulfur to lower, Lime to raise. Why do I keep seeing this quoted backwards?

Whoa, totally missed that ... and correctly pointed out. Might be the reason for the high pH as well ...?

[Pistol]

I stated the PH incorrectly. We have acidic soil, so we do want to raise the PH with lime. Sorry for the mis-statement.

[quackgrass]

I could have clarified myself better.

When I look at a product I start by tearing it apart and finding as many shortcomings, and possible missuses as I can. If you want a product to produce good results you must understand its limitations and risks first. Many good products have suffered because they can't live up to the hype that surrounds them. People are way to eager to hear about the good and reluctant to learn the bad. When things go wrong they abandon the product without understanding what happened.

My comments followed statements of outright support, which I thought was misleading, so I felt inclined to bring up the other aspects.

Would I use leaf compost for a topdressing here? Not ours, our material is too high in pH and our soils are even higher. If a customer is going to pay for a topdressing I will recommend something to help buffer pH and provide more nutrients so the results justify the expense.

If our soil was low in pH and somewhat fertile I would be all for it since the product costs are low and the results would show improvement.

[Pistol]

My brain is getting twisted around:dizzy:

Our soil is acidic (low PH) - so the use of a high PH leaf compost should work great.

I'm sorry if I contributed to some of the confusion (I think I have it straight now).

Thanks, Pistol

[Tim Wilson]

Must be insider knowledge ... didn't know he was using it for CT as well. :)


Just an if...maybe...then, statement

[Pistol]

Well I topdressed part of a yard today - 2 cu yds - just me, my shovel, wheel barrel and broom (it took me 3 hours - am I slow or is that about right?). Very poor quality compost - sticks - rocks - cans - should have driven another 30 min. and spent an extra $6 for some cert. screened real compost.

[Smallaxe]

Well I topdressed part of a yard today - 2 cu yds - just me, my shovel, wheel barrel and broom (it took me 3 hours - am I slow or is that about right?). Very poor quality compost - sticks - rocks - cans - should have driven another 30 min. and spent an extra $6 for some cert. screened real compost.

That's like 2 pickup loads of c-post in 3 hrs. One person. Not bad. I would bill out 2 hours for 2 people On 2 loads. - or - 4 manhours, but, 2.5 manhours for one load so you are working faster than me. :)

Poor c-post is ok in the fall but you want the good stuff in the spring and summer. JMO.

[Kiril]

If the compost had that junk in it, then it wasn't screened properly. What are your bulk delivery options for the better stuff?

[Pistol]

The company that makes the compost (http://www.mcgillcompost.com/) is 2 hrs from me and their min. qty is 50 cu yds - too much for me / no place to hold it. They have a reseller about 45 min from me - I think they deliver but I can't get through to them on the phone - I'm probably going to drive over and look at the product. I'll let you know. This is the only certified compost that I have been able to locate anwhere in the state of NC.

[Pistol]

OK - after a little more digging, I have found 2-3 more cert. compost mfgrs at a much better rate. Problem will be volume and shipping. Working to get this all figured out. Two want 50 yd min. and all 1+ hours away. It's never easy.

One good thing - the compost I put out yesterday is getting a soaking rain - am I making compost tea right on the turf?!?!?!?lol

[Kiril]

OK - after a little more digging, I have found 2-3 more cert. compost mfgrs at a much better rate. Problem will be volume and shipping. Working to get this all figured out. Two want 50 yd min. and all 1+ hours away. It's never easy.

You should also check if they will do multiple dumps. 50 yards in one place may be too much, but 50 yards in 5 places in manageable.

One good thing - the compost I put out yesterday is getting a soaking rain - am I making compost tea right on the turf?!?!?!?lol

Exactly.

[JDUtah]

I would more call it compost 'extract' till you spray some molasses out there. ;)

(where is the stick-poke smiley?)

[Smallaxe]

I would more call it compost 'extract' till you spray some molasses out there. ;)

(where is the stick-poke smiley?)

Don't know about the 'smiley' offhand, but I am getting ready to figure out my molasses/sugar apps for the spring.

With your observations -- what do you expect from apps of sweets for the springtime microbes?

[JDUtah]

I have only tried late summer apps... not much a difference form what I observed...

[Smallaxe]

thanks, I am going to increase my active summertime apps. I didn't use any fert last year on this one place because the grass was always so green.

I have theories - but I'm not sure why. That's why I asked.