Lest we forget

[Smallaxe]

In fact, grass clippings contain valuable nutrients that can generate up to 25 percent of your lawn's total fertilizer needs. A hundred pounds of grass clippings can generate and recycle as much as three to four pounds of nitrogen, one-half to one pound of phosphorus, and two to three pounds of potassium back to the lawn. These are the three most important nutrients needed by lawns and commonly supplied in lawn fertilizers. The other good news is that grass clippings do not contribute to thatch (an organic debris layer between the soil and live grass) since grass clippings are 75-85 percent water and decompose readily.

This comes from: http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1191.html

While we are focussing so much on inputs I thought it might not hurt, to remember some of the advantages of an active soil. :)
This is one. I believe there were others...

[4.3mudder]

Thanks for the info :waving:

[dishboy]

In fact, grass clippings contain valuable nutrients that can generate up to 25 percent of your lawn's total fertilizer needs. A hundred pounds of grass clippings can generate and recycle as much as three to four pounds of nitrogen, one-half to one pound of phosphorus, and two to three pounds of potassium back to the lawn. These are the three most important nutrients needed by lawns and commonly supplied in lawn fertilizers. The other good news is that grass clippings do not contribute to thatch (an organic debris layer between the soil and live grass) since grass clippings are 75-85 percent water and decompose readily.

This comes from: http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1191.html

While we are focussing so much on inputs I thought it might not hurt, to remember some of the advantages of an active soil. :)
This is one. I believe there were others...

Good post . I think mulching is probably the best thing we can do in a natural program. The three to five percent N from grass clippings is from dry clipping weight. Just having effective mulching mowers goes a long way in itself to improving turfgrass quality before we even start talking about other inputs. I have spent hundreds of hours working with mulching blades-decks deck pitch etc. and have come up with what I think is great mower configurations for mulching cool season grass. When you have customers telling you that their lawn has never looked better and you are competing in a area where it is status quo to bag, I think that this is a substantial achievement. Mulch on!

[Smallaxe]

Good post . I think mulching is probably the best thing we can do in a natural program. The three to five percent N from grass clippings is from dry clipping weight. Just having effective mulching mowers goes a long way in itself to improving turfgrass quality before we even start talking about other inputs. I have spent hundreds of hours working with mulching blades-decks deck pitch etc. and have come up with what I think is great mower configurations for mulching cool season grass. When you have customers telling you that their lawn has never looked better and you are competing in a area where it is status quo to bag, I think that this is a substantial achievement. Mulch on!

Do you think many of the mulching mowers are fairly equal?
What should we be looking for in a properly pitched mulching blade?

[dishboy]

Do you think many of the mulching mowers are fairly equal?
What should we be looking for in a properly pitched mulching blade?

No...

The deck is pitched, IMO zero pitch is best for mulching.

[ted putnam]

No...

The deck is pitched, IMO zero pitch is best for mulching.

I have been pushing my customers to mulch instead of bagging. Less work for them, returning nutrients and OM to the soil, etc... For the homeowner that mows himself, what mulching blade would you recommend. Just curious because I have many customers that ask for this advice.

[JDUtah]

I would suggest a mulching blade made for that specific mower by the manufacturer, or a gator blade.

just my .02

What other suggestions do people have?

[ted putnam]

I would suggest a mulching blade made for that specific mower by the manufacturer, or a gator blade.

just my .02

What other suggestions do people have?

Thanks JD. I think there is another called Ninja. I figure the makers of these "aftermarket" blades probably manufacture them for a broad range of mower types. I just have no experience with them and I thought someone with experience might know which was best. I let my clippings fly out of the chute on my personal lawn.

[bicmudpuppy]

I may get blasted for this, but I personally think "mulching mowers" are over rated. They fall into the laziness of our society. If you follow the rule of thumb that dictates NEVER removing more than 1/3 of the plant in a single mowing pass, I don't believe you get that much benefit from chopping the clippings that much more. If a residential lawn is kept at 3" for mowing height (actually, 3" turf doesn't look that bad if it is healthy and thick, just don't need to find a golf ball in it!) you just have to mow before it gets to 4.5" tall. That isn't that hard to do unless your in a climate where spring rains can prevent you from making the scheduled mowing. Then, you raise the mowers and make an extra trip back by in a day or two when you lower the mower back down. Many LCO's want to buck this step. They say its "to much work". You should be getting paid by the trip. If you missed a trip for rain, you owe the customer a mowing.

All that being said, if mulching is your desire, we have great luck with gator blades. I wish they made gators for my JD rough mower.

[Smallaxe]

I may get blasted for this, but I personally think "mulching mowers" are over rated. They fall into the laziness of our society. If you follow the rule of thumb that dictates NEVER removing more than 1/3 of the plant in a single mowing pass, I don't believe you get that much benefit from chopping the clippings that much more. ...

Do you mean in the sense of slicing and dicing the grass blades, extra times before it hit the ground, isn't that much extra benefit?
I don't like mulchin myself, I typically side shoot. I believe it disappears into the grass and starts digesting just as quickly.

Bagging on the other hand is just removing everything the plant put into growing that grass. Even at 80% water that is still a lot of dry matter per week. I have 2 lawns that fill up the full sized pickup bed every week. Each!!
One I can use to mix in the mulch pile, the other is a Chemlawn special, so I seldom take anything there for personal use. Except to suffocate the weeds around my horseshoe pit.

[bicmudpuppy]

Do you mean in the sense of slicing and dicing the grass blades, extra times before it hit the ground, isn't that much extra benefit?
I don't like mulchin myself, I typically side shoot. I believe it disappears into the grass and starts digesting just as quickly.

Bagging on the other hand is just removing everything the plant put into growing that grass. Even at 80% water that is still a lot of dry matter per week. I have 2 lawns that fill up the full sized pickup bed every week. Each!!
One I can use to mix in the mulch pile, the other is a Chemlawn special, so I seldom take anything there for personal use. Except to suffocate the weeds around my horseshoe pit.

Never bag if you have a choice. If you get behind enough to get "hay" rows, and you can't spread them out, either by double cutting or blowing them, then picking them up is better than "smothering". We catch the clippings on the greens. We spread those few clippings back out in the taller grass areas. Even our tees and fairways, maintained at .500" for HOC can be mowed often enough to let the clippings fall. On rare occasions, we have to drag to knock down clippings. For "spring cleanup", I had them run the sweeper behind all the rough. 90%+ of what was picked up was brown, dormant matter that, while good insulation, slows green up. All of that is being worked into my new compost piles. I hope to have them in a top dresser and back where they came from by August or September.

I wouldn't be afraid of the clippings from a synthetic yard. I might be tempted to compost them separately, just to make SURE, but there should not be anything in the green leaf tissues to worry about.

The one time of year I really like mulching mowers, is fall, BUT you can get the same results when grinding leaves with a rotary by making multiple passes. Just don't windrow it all in the same direction and then try to grind. If your mower will side discharge, throw the debris back and forth until it disappears. I like to show my crew how to make concentric "figure 8's" and reverse the direction for the next time.

[phasthound]

The only draw back I can see with not removing clippings is during times when weed have formed seed heads. Would it be better to remove clippings then? Just thinking. :confused:

[dishboy]

I may get blasted for this, but I personally think "mulching mowers" are over rated. They fall into the laziness of our society. If you follow the rule of thumb that dictates NEVER removing more than 1/3 of the plant in a single mowing pass, I don't believe you get that much benefit from chopping the clippings that much more. If a residential lawn is kept at 3" for mowing height (actually, 3" turf doesn't look that bad if it is healthy and thick, just don't need to find a golf ball in it!) you just have to mow before it gets to 4.5" tall. That isn't that hard to do unless your in a climate where spring rains can prevent you from making the scheduled mowing. Then, you raise the mowers and make an extra trip back by in a day or two when you lower the mower back down. Many LCO's want to buck this step. They say its "to much work". You should be getting paid by the trip. If you missed a trip for rain, you owe the customer a mowing.

All that being said, if mulching is your desire, we have great luck with gator blades. I wish they made gators for my JD rough mower.

The 1/3 rule is great, but seldom seen in the world I live in until summer heat. For most yards I do letting the clippings fly is not a option and is no where near as neat as the lawn needs to look bagged when I leave. . Making a extra trip is a ludicrous idea to get 1/3 IMO! Deck design is more important than blade design if blade is sharpened to center and lift is small enough. Higher lift blades blow out debris, again messy and plaster grass to the deck. For a low lift blade to give a good cut the deck design/airflow has to be right to get a clean cut.

[dirtandhoops]

So Smallaxe, how many "Chemlawn special" lawns do you mow? By your reasoning, you should collect the clippings on all of those so as to gid rid of the stuff Chemlawn put in to all those grass blades. Right? (I'm being half-serious and half-wiseacre.)

[Kiril]

The only draw back I can see with not removing clippings is during times when weed have formed seed heads. Would it be better to remove clippings then? Just thinking. :confused:

Good cultural practice would dictate removing clippings if weed propagation is a concern.

[dishboy]

Good cultural practice would dictate removing clippings if weed propagation is a concern.

Good cultural practices would dictate leaving the clippings and let the thicker turf battle the weeds and then address the weeds in another way.

[Kiril]

Good cultural practices would dictate leaving the clippings and let the thicker turf battle the weeds and then address the weeds in another way.

And what is wrong with removing, composting, and returning? That way you are effectively depleting the weed seed bank on the site, not adding to it.

Do you also not wash your deck when moving from a weedy site to a pristine site? Same difference IMO.

[dirtandhoops]

Good cultural practices would dictate leaving the clippings and let the thicker turf battle the weeds and then address the weeds in another way.

I think the assumption here was that if there were a substantial volume of weed seed heads, there wouldn't be thick turf. So collect. Then work on getting the turf thicker.


BTW, try typing "weed seed heads" three times fast.

[4.3mudder]

I use high lift gator mulcher magnum blades by Oregon. They are superb with the mulch baffle kit on my Lazer, and they do wonders in the fall and spring when leaves are all over the place.

[JDUtah]

Deck design is more important than blade design if blade is sharpened to center and lift is small enough. Higher lift blades blow out debris, again messy and plaster grass to the deck. For a low lift blade to give a good cut the deck design/airflow has to be right to get a clean cut.

:clapping::clapping:

That is why we recommend people purchasing a mulch blade designed by the mower manufacturer. Manufactures design the blade and deck to work together. It is also a good idea to use a mulch blade ONLY when you have the mulch plate installed. If you are side discharging use a bagging blade (high lift) to get a better looking cut. Suction determines how clean the cut is. Blade, deck design, bagging/side discharging/or mulching, all work together (or not) to determine the quality of cut.

Almost every customer has NO idea that blades have different lift or that the amount of desired lift is determined by what you are doing with the clippings. We tell them get a manufacturer mulch blade, or go gator, to get the correct 'mulching lift' under their deck.. (I haven't tried Ninja)

http://legacylawnsllc.com/tips/mulch.html

[dishboy]

I think the assumption here was that if there were a substantial volume of weed seed heads, there wouldn't be thick turf. So collect. Then work on getting the turf thicker.


BTW, try typing "weed seed heads" three times fast.

Since he said "during times when weed have formed seed heads" my assumption is that there is not a substantial weed problem or the weed seed heads would be present at all times during the growing season.

[ted putnam]

:clapping::clapping:

That is why we recommend people purchasing a mulch blade designed by the mower manufacturer. Manufactures design the blade and deck to work together. It is also a good idea to use a mulch blade ONLY when you have the mulch plate installed. If you are side discharging use a bagging blade (high lift) to get a better looking cut. Suction determines how clean the cut is. Blade, deck design, bagging/side discharging/or mulching, all work together (or not) to determine the quality of cut.

Almost every customer has NO idea that blades have different lift or that the amount of desired lift is determined by what you are doing with the clippings. We tell them get a manufacturer mulch blade, or go gator, to get the correct 'mulching lift' under their deck.. (I haven't tried Ninja)

http://legacylawnsllc.com/tips/mulch.html

Good advice...especially for customers that can't fine tune their equipment because they don't have the knowledge a professional who mows lawns for a living does. Thanks JD

[JDUtah]

Yep. Anytime. :)

[dishboy]

:clapping::clapping:

That is why we recommend people purchasing a mulch blade designed by the mower manufacturer. Manufactures design the blade and deck to work together. It is also a good idea to use a mulch blade ONLY when you have the mulch plate installed. If you are side discharging use a bagging blade (high lift) to get a better looking cut. Suction determines how clean the cut is. Blade, deck design, bagging/side discharging/or mulching, all work together (or not) to determine the quality of cut.

Almost every customer has NO idea that blades have different lift or that the amount of desired lift is determined by what you are doing with the clippings. We tell them get a manufacturer mulch blade, or go gator, to get the correct 'mulching lift' under their deck.. (I haven't tried Ninja)

http://legacylawnsllc.com/tips/mulch.html

That is fine if you are recommending a blade to a consumer.

For me the stock Honda, Toro, or Exmark mulch blades and deck designs leaves about 30% to 40% mulching ability sitting on the sidelines and blows a good amount of leaves or debris right out of the path the mower leaving a messy yard. Mulching technology has left these designs in the dust. IMO the gator design works great under the right deck if you cut off three of the four sails, otherwise excessive blowout and plastering damp grass to the deck results.

[dishboy]

And what is wrong with removing, composting, and returning? That way you are effectively depleting the weed seed bank on the site, not adding to it.

Do you also not wash your deck when moving from a weedy site to a pristine site? Same difference IMO.

That is not the way I would deal with a weed problem. Way to much work.
I never wash my mower between lawns. I do not believe the mower to be transporting seeds on any level to warrant action. Decks do get scraped when growth is lush.

[bicmudpuppy]

The 1/3 rule is great, but seldom seen in the world I live in until summer heat. For most yards I do letting the clippings fly is not a option and is no where near as neat as the lawn needs to look bagged when I leave. . Making a extra trip is a ludicrous idea to get 1/3 IMO! Deck design is more important than blade design if blade is sharpened to center and lift is small enough. Higher lift blades blow out debris, again messy and plaster grass to the deck. For a low lift blade to give a good cut the deck design/airflow has to be right to get a clean cut.

That is not the way I would deal with a weed problem. Way to much work.
I never wash my mower between lawns. I do not believe the mower to be transporting seeds on any level to warrant action. Decks do get scraped when growth is lush.

You write the contracts to cover the trips you make. Do you discount for summer when you don't have to mow? If the best you can do is every 5 days, then you do that. You do the absolute best you can and the customers worth having appreciate it and pay for it. Or you can play the paper hanging, as long as I'm making a buck, don't really care about the customer beyond the check, might as well be selling them whatever they will pay for instead of taking to the next level of professionalism.

The above is not a debate, it is just my honest opinion on how it SHOULD be. I've worked for and with a very few companies who were willing to go that extra mile. The employees that worked for those employers always "ate at the top of the food chain". The main reason I was there in the first place. The quality of the customer at this level is way beyond par. The LCO at this level doesn't think twice about "passing" on a customer who doesn't appreciate the services being provided. And YES, you raise the mower after being stuck in the shop for three days waiting for the rain to stop and the grass to dry. You drop the mowers back down and make the tour as fast as you possibly can. End results is your properties stand out above all the "others". So much so that you can quit calling them "competition".

[Smallaxe]

So Smallaxe, how many "Chemlawn special" lawns do you mow? By your reasoning, you should collect the clippings on all of those so as to gid rid of the stuff Chemlawn put in to all those grass blades. Right? (I'm being half-serious and half-wiseacre.)

I don't compost commercially, I just let various pile mixtures sit for a year and work them into the garden. Chemlawn puts down pre-m twice, broadleaf twice, insecticide 2 or 3 times, and the home owner has his own fascination with chemical applications for ants, skeeters etc..

Those clippings are in long, long term piles. I know that these things break down after a few months, but I like my garden to be worry free. Grass clippings in the garden definately makes changes. I never buy ferts for the garden - organic or otherwise.

[dishboy]

You write the contracts to cover the trips you make. Do you discount for summer when you don't have to mow? If the best you can do is every 5 days, then you do that. You do the absolute best you can and the customers worth having appreciate it and pay for it. Or you can play the paper hanging, as long as I'm making a buck, don't really care about the customer beyond the check, might as well be selling them whatever they will pay for instead of taking to the next level of professionalism.

The above is not a debate, it is just my honest opinion on how it SHOULD be. I've worked for and with a very few companies who were willing to go that extra mile. The employees that worked for those employers always "ate at the top of the food chain". The main reason I was there in the first place. The quality of the customer at this level is way beyond par. The LCO at this level doesn't think twice about "passing" on a customer who doesn't appreciate the services being provided. And YES, you raise the mower after being stuck in the shop for three days waiting for the rain to stop and the grass to dry. You drop the mowers back down and make the tour as fast as you possibly can. End results is your properties stand out above all the "others". So much so that you can quit calling them "competition".

The market here will not support what you speak of above, nor is multiple trips necessary here. My mowers mulch a weeks grass just fine thank you. Who takes a break when it rains , I sure don't. Those who have ever worked the Portland or Seattle market scoff at such a idea. IMO good service means being in the same yard at the same time every week. In the age of irrigation systems why would the lawn not need cutting mid summer? Take two winter months off and skip summer cuttings too, how can a Gardner survive that nonsense?

[JDUtah]

That is fine if you are recommending a blade to a consumer.

For me the stock Honda, Toro, or Exmark mulch blades and deck designs leaves about 30% to 40% mulching ability sitting on the sidelines and blows a good amount of leaves or debris right out of the path the mower leaving a messy yard. Mulching technology has left these designs in the dust. IMO the gator design works great under the right deck if you cut off three of the four sails, otherwise excessive blowout and plastering damp grass to the deck results.

Interesting. Mind sharing some picks of the modified blades? Also, do you notice any stringers after you mow??

I agree, if I was still doing mowing I would make sure my equipment was running very efficiently.

[Kiril]

In the age of irrigation systems why would the lawn not need cutting mid summer?

Because proper irrigation management does not mean maintaining spring growth rates throughout the year. You can have a thick and healthy stand of turf that only requires cutting once every 2-3 weeks in the summer. For some people who want their lawn to always look "cut" this obviously won't work, but if you follow the 1/3 rule, it will (regional differences withstanding).

As far as weed seeds go, given a single crab grass plant can produce well over 100K seeds in a single season, I wonder how many years you will be battling crab grass in lawns where you are aiding seed dispersal?

People are constantly complaining about the lack of organic weed control in turf .... yet how many are willing to take the extra steps to reduce the possibility of weed seeds being transferred between sites or on a particular site in the first place? The little things that can be done to help manage properties organically are sometimes the most important.

If you see a few weeds going to seed in your turf, pull them before cutting.
If you have a site with a lot of weeds going to seed, bag it, compost it, and return it.
If a particular site requires additional time to decontaminate your equipment or bagging and removal, build it into your price structure until such a time when these extra steps are no longer required.

As with Bic, I am not looking for a debate here. These are recommendations I give to clients who are a looking for ways to sustainably manage their properties.

[DUSTYCEDAR]

I USED TO GO THE EXTRA MILE WHEN MOWING
i got out of it and someone else took over and the customers beeged me to come back and i told them the new cost and they about had a fit.
so cost is always the bottom line

[dirtandhoops]

I USED TO GO THE EXTRA MILE WHEN MOWING
i got out of it and someone else took over and the customers beeged me to come back and i told them the new cost and they about had a fit.
so cost is always the bottom line

Maybe they had a fit, but did they re-sign with you?

[bicmudpuppy]

I USED TO GO THE EXTRA MILE WHEN MOWING
i got out of it and someone else took over and the customers beeged me to come back and i told them the new cost and they about had a fit.
so cost is always the bottom line

Cost vs VALUE is the bottom line. If your customers are looking for the lowest cost and that is their number one determining factor, the HS kid with a Wal-mart push mower has you beat every day of the week and twice on Sunday. SELL professionalism, and I don't buy the "my market won't stand it". Like Kiril, I don't need to debate it. The results of those doing it successfully from one coast to the other proves it CAN be done. Can any LCO be the one doing it? Like the man said, "if it was easy, women and children would be doing it". Learn your trade and be the best you can be at it. If money doesn't follow, then find something you can be the best at, and eventually money will follow.

[Smallaxe]

Cost vs VALUE is the bottom line. If your customers are looking for the lowest cost and that is their number one determining factor, the HS kid with a Wal-mart push mower has you beat every day of the week and twice on Sunday. SELL professionalism, and I don't buy the "my market won't stand it". Like Kiril, I don't need to debate it. The results of those doing it successfully from one coast to the other proves it CAN be done. Can any LCO be the one doing it? Like the man said, "if it was easy, women and children would be doing it". Learn your trade and be the best you can be at it. If money doesn't follow, then find something you can be the best at, and eventually money will follow.

That is a very relevant point. :)

I appreciate your sharing with us the challenges on working a golf course, and I think you have a very firm handle on wat you are doing. In fact I believe there is a LESSON for all of us in your experiences. Good or bad. We learn.

The HS kid will never compete with me. Niether will the lowballer. My competition comes from what I did last year, and did I, learn how to do it better. :)

The big deal is : Women and Children - Can do it. :laugh:

[dirtandhoops]

Well said, smallaxe. People often ask me about my competition. I tell them I don't have any competition. I try to set myself apart with unmatched service. And like you said, we continually try to improve OURSELVES. There is an interesting business strategy called the Blue Ocean Strategy. A little too much to explain here but anyone interesting in separating themselves from the pack should Google it.
That is one of the reasons I started to study organic turf treatments ---- to find a Blue Ocean (in my market) where no one else was sailing.

[Smallaxe]

Well said, smallaxe. People often ask me about my competition. I tell them I don't have any competition. I try to set myself apart with unmatched service. And like you said, we continually try to improve OURSELVES. There is an interesting business strategy called the Blue Ocean Strategy. A little too much to explain here but anyone interesting in separating themselves from the pack should Google it.
That is one of the reasons I started to study organic turf treatments ---- to find a Blue Ocean (in my market) where no one else was sailing.

Good CS (Customer Service) puts you on the A list, automatically. The best cars produced in the 20th Century was during the 1970s. [Our last recession] Will the 'Bailouts' give us low quality kr@#$%^ in manufacturing and service? - or - Will we step it up a notch?

Believe me- The Blue Ocean of quality and integrity - is clear and smooth. :)

I would love to hear from people who care about the client and their grass... Just to prove me wrong.

But alas, We are now aerating last falls' hydroseeding.
No honour among thieves,,, eh?

[bicmudpuppy]

I appreciate your sharing with us the challenges on working a golf course

Sadly, my post had nothing to do with golf courses. I've worked as a landscape designer and irrigation tech in 5 states over the last 20 years. I've made my share of misjudgments and ended up working for outfits that consistently came in "low bid". I have had much fewer opportunities to work with organizations who wouldn't be low bid on their best/worst day. Those organizations never lacked for work and the people I worked with were of the highest caliber in every respect. I have sub contracted as the irrigation tech for very small contractors who fit the same genre. They never lack for work. Often turning down what would have been very profitable opportunities because taking care of what they have, at the level they expect, comes before growth and greed. I won't add anymore. I said I didn't want to debate it, and I'm starting to feel like I'm in a debate about the profitability of quality.

[dishboy]

Because proper irrigation management does not mean maintaining spring growth rates throughout the year. You can have a thick and healthy stand of turf that only requires cutting once every 2-3 weeks in the summer. For some people who want their lawn to always look "cut" this obviously won't work, but if you follow the 1/3 rule, it will (regional differences withstanding).

As far as weed seeds go, given a single crab grass plant can produce well over 100K seeds in a single season, I wonder how many years you will be battling crab grass in lawns where you are aiding seed dispersal?

People are constantly complaining about the lack of organic weed control in turf .... yet how many are willing to take the extra steps to reduce the possibility of weed seeds being transferred between sites or on a particular site in the first place? The little things that can be done to help manage properties organically are sometimes the most important.

If you see a few weeds going to seed in your turf, pull them before cutting.
If you have a site with a lot of weeds going to seed, bag it, compost it, and return it.
If a particular site requires additional time to decontaminate your equipment or bagging and removal, build it into your price structure until such a time when these extra steps are no longer required.

As with Bic, I am not looking for a debate here. These are recommendations I give to clients who are a looking for ways to sustainably manage their properties.

I disagree, a healthy lawn will need to be mowed every all week all summer if proper N levels and irrigation levels are correct. I always get more than 1/3 growth in any period over seven days. If your water/N are not enough to maintain this growth turf density will decrease from stress/insect activity and you can expect weed colonization. Leaving grass uncut for longer periods also allows weed seed maturation again increasing weed colonization (http://crop.scijournals.org/cgi/reprint/43/6/1899).

I again disagree about crabgrass, your best defense is a thick canopy and the best way to get that is by mulching. I have also seen a reference that states many turf grasses contain enzymes or materials that may inhibit weed seed germination.

"In Kentucky bluegrass, weed encroachment is less severe when clippings are returned (Haley et al.,195-85)." I agree with this!

I can also state that my mowers will pick up any loose topsoil or compost that is present in any turf with a loose enough canopy to support substantial weed population and deposit them in the bag. If you compost and I bag I will be taking a large amount of your compost with me.

As far as washing your equipment between lawns, what is you evidence that mowers transport weed seeds, where are they hiding and how are they deposited on the next lawn? Cite evidence.

I am with tree on this one , if the lawn is heavily infested it is better to chemically eradicate the problem, reseed and then start your organic program.

[Kiril]

I disagree, a healthy lawn will need to be mowed every all week all summer if proper N levels and irrigation levels are correct. I always get more than 1/3 growth in any period over seven days.

Odd. I can achieve healthy fescue turf that can easily go 2 weeks between cuts (without breaking the 1/3 rule) with the only source of water is irrigation. Healthy grass, thick stand of turf, no fertilizers required, no pesticides used, no weeds to speak of .... what am I doing wrong?

Is the indication of a healthy stand of turf excessive growth? If you think so, I would beg to differ, but then I'm not a lawn jockey either.

I again disagree about crabgrass, your best defense is a thick canopy and the best way to get that is by mulching. I have also seen a reference that states many turf grasses contain enzymes or materials that may inhibit weed seed germination.

Your best defense against weeds is multifaceted.

1) Don't aid or promote in seed dispersal or any cultural practices that will promote weed propagation
2) Don't allow the weeds to go to seed (pretty hard with crab)
3) Maintain your turf so it out competes weeds (i.e. thick and healthy stand of turf)
4) Maintain proper soil moisture (where you have control)
5) Maintain a healthy, fertile soil with a wide diversity of life

Also, I believe you saw that reference to allelopathic effects of certain turf grasses on this forum, and I will remind you, it was specific to a particular species of fescue. If you have information on other types of turf grasses that also display this behavior by all means please clue us in .... oh and references please.


"In Kentucky bluegrass, weed encroachment is less severe when clippings are returned (Haley et al.,195-85)." I agree with this!

I agree as well .... are you bringing this up for a reason? Is this document speaking with regard to methods of preventing weed dispersal, or just natural methods that help prevent weeds that are already present in a lawn from gaining a foot hold?

As far as washing your equipment between lawns, what is you evidence that mowers transport weed seeds, where are they hiding and how are they deposited on the next lawn? Cite evidence.

Really dude ... cite evidence? :rolleyes:

Your wheels, the underside of your deck, your blade(s), your trimmer, your edger, cultivation tools, etc.....

Your "evidence" ............

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/EP/EP14100.pdf

Sanitation

It is extremely important to prevent the introduction of weeds into lawn areas. If one can prevent weed establishment, there will be no need for control practices. Areas adjacent to fine turf that are hard to mow, such as fencerows or ditch banks, often serve as a source of weed seed that infests the nearby turf. These areas should receive weed management attention.

Another good practice is to wash mowers and trimmers used in weed-infested areas before mowing or trimming in weed-free areas. Similarly, rototillers should be thoroughly cleaned before and after use to minimize dispersal of weed seeds found in the soil. Yard clippings that contain weeds should be properly disposed of or composted to reduce the possibility of unwanted contamination.

http://commodities.caes.uga.edu/turfgrass/georgiaturf/WeedMngt/weedcontrol/ASAWEED.PDF

Sanitation practices.

Sanitation practices include the prevention of weed seed movement by mechanical or human means. Mechanical devices, such as mowers or cultivators, pick-up weed seeds and transport them to adjacent areas. Mowers should be rinsed before being transported from weed-infested to weed-free areas.

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn74113.html

If mowers are moved from weedy lawns to other lawns, be sure to wash off the blades to avoid transport of weed seeds and propagules.

I can dig up some more if you want?

I am with tree on this one , if the lawn is heavily infested it is better to chemically eradicate the problem, reseed and then start your organic program.

And I have said the same MANY times.

Consider this. What if a complete renovation is not an option ... maintaining the weed pit IS the desired and ONLY option ... what do you do then?

I'm curious .... did you miss the "not looking for a debate" part of my post?

[bicmudpuppy]

I'm curious .... did you miss the "not looking for a debate" part of my post?

ROFLMAO, but we continue to "feed the fire" and step up to the debate anyway. I left the sanitation aspects to you. After the inference that golf is another world, I didn't want to point out that the number one contributor to my weeds on a golf course is foot traffic. Very similar to the problems some lakes are having with the encroachment of non natives from boats coming and going.

I've only worked with one LCO in my short, just shy of 30 year career in turf who went the extra mile to wash equipment. They towed the mowers with a spray rig that was only used part time. The sprayer left the shop full and came back nearly empty every day. A quick blast of the deck was all that really ever happened, and the target was more presentation than anything else, but the CUSTOMERS thought it was great that they made the extra effort.

[Kiril]

ROFLMAO, but we continue to "feed the fire" and step up to the debate anyway.

Well you know me .... I am not likely to back down when pressed. ;)

I've only worked with one LCO in my short, just shy of 30 year career in turf who went the extra mile to wash equipment. They towed the mowers with a spray rig that was only used part time. The sprayer left the shop full and came back nearly empty every day. A quick blast of the deck was all that really ever happened, and the target was more presentation than anything else, but the CUSTOMERS thought it was great that they made the extra effort.

I agree it is a serious PITA, but you know what they say ....

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. :)

[bicmudpuppy]

I agree it is a serious PITA, but you know what they say ....

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. :)

Actually, after the initial expense of having the sprayer available (not a problem for many small outfits, but if your running six crews.......), it didn't really cost them any time. A small amount of effort on the crews part, but that was all. Three man crew. First guy done gets the hose out. When the second guy got to the truck, the first guy washed his deck as he went up the ramp. Second guy grabs the first guys mower and the process is repeated. One of the two finished grabs a trimmer (or possibly on a large property, third guy IS the trimmer). Somebody has to blow clean, and somebody moves the truck and washes down any mess the cleaning made. A good crew will learn to time this to the point it doesn't cost more than 5 minutes total for one guy. What you really lose is a few minutes of stand around time or the crew leaders smoke break.