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Viseras lawn service
03-11-2009, 10:10 PM
Got a call today for a "repair" see pics below.

Home owner says they bought the house 4 years ago and it was just installed, so everything was just fine. This is what it looks like now.

They also mentioned that they are getting water in the basement as there is a slab underneath the stoop which was not properly sealed before the stairs were built. He also said that they might have built the steps over an existing stoop, which looks possible because some of the areas havent moved while all of the other steps have begun to tip foward....


We're going to give him a price to remove it all and start from scratch, which they will probably never go for but this is really beyond repair.. The only thing I will probably save are the steps leading up from the driveway. I threw a level on the just for the heck of it and they havent moved at all.

What do ya think?

Jason Rose
03-11-2009, 10:43 PM
Nice pics. Just goes to show that there's a LOT more to hardscaping like that then just stacking up blocks ontop of the dirt. Looks like a nightmare...

Viseras lawn service
03-11-2009, 10:50 PM
Yeah, I also think what is in plain sight is only half the story. Some of the gaps in the stoop you can see that what ever they used to fill it is more sand than good crushed stone......oh boy.

PlatinumLandCon
03-11-2009, 11:24 PM
Oh man, it looks like essentially a complete tear-out. Good luck on that one.

bigviclbi
03-11-2009, 11:52 PM
I'd tell them that this is a complete safety hazard and they NEED to fix it and sue somebody.

Summit L & D
03-11-2009, 11:56 PM
I don't see any safety issues....they have lighting.:laugh:

weasel
03-12-2009, 12:09 AM
hope you get a chance to do it right. if so will you post pics?

shovelracer
03-12-2009, 12:25 AM
I don't see any safety issues....they have lighting.:laugh:

and a handrail on each side.

Bru75
03-12-2009, 12:34 AM
Wow! I don't see that they have any choice other than total replacement. If they try to repair that, they'll just have the same problem again... soon.

DaughtryLC
03-12-2009, 09:53 AM
Thats going to cost some serious $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

ParkviewNursery
03-12-2009, 12:12 PM
This needs to be in the WHAT WERE YOU THINKING folder, wow, so many things wrong where to start!

riverwalklandscaping
03-12-2009, 03:38 PM
haha don't worry just jam some more mulch in between the pavers and call it a day. what did you say is level? it looks like it is all uneven

Bru75
03-12-2009, 07:31 PM
The part that is level probably started out crooked and settled to level.

Viseras lawn service
03-12-2009, 08:59 PM
The steps in the first pic are actually pretty close, everything else has to come down and be redone.

What would you guys price something like that at?

I have a number on paper, probably is higher than what that would cost to install brand new :waving:

Summit L & D
03-12-2009, 09:04 PM
I have a number on paper, probably is higher than what that would cost to install brand new :waving:

I would agree with that.

Personally I'd just plan on a total removal and start over. Let the client know that you will try to use the existing pavers, but if it turns into more work than it's worth...you know you've covered yourself for a full install.

Viseras lawn service
03-12-2009, 10:32 PM
Yeah, I think i might just pass on this one. The amount of labor to pull everything apart, sort it out and stack it neatly, and then get all the material up the hill for the base and backfill......its not even worth it lol.

Bru75
03-13-2009, 12:44 AM
Figure in all of your time, allow for unforseen difficulties, and see if they will accept your price. If they won't, RUN!

NewHorizon's Land
03-13-2009, 07:04 AM
Holy chit. That is going to be a tough job for you to sell. It amazes me how many contractors rip people off and how many homeowners do not do their research.

addictedtolandscaping
03-13-2009, 08:14 AM
Without doubt total refurb. Customer should recognize that the project wasn;t installed correctly, apparently this contractor never heard of a plate compactor, or did they use strictly dust to build everything on?? This is definitely a time consuming job, and somebody is going to cry about money, but if they want it right and not get sued for having it falling apart and dangerous not to mention the neglect they are automatically handled for knowing about it, then they will pay for what they should have gotten to begin with. They should be able to recover your costs and probably a good portion of the initial costs in court.

capnsac
03-13-2009, 10:11 AM
What would a total overhaul cost for something like this?

etwman
03-13-2009, 07:19 PM
If you don't have a clue what this project would cost to demolish completely (and it will need to be completely torn out) and redo, you have absolutely no business even considering it.

Like you shouldn't even go out to look at it. It's way over your head. Anyone who does routine hardscape construction for a living should be able to stand there, walk around it, and in 5-10 minutes give a give a ballpark range as to what it would cost to the nearest $5-$10k as a very rough estimate. I in not way am promoting verbal estimates but if the customer pees their pants, than you just saved your self alot of time on a formal estimate. If they respond, "I was kind of thinking that range" then go do a formal estimate. Most times people like this, either went the low ball route initially, attempted to play "Captain Super Hardscaper" themselves, or bought the house with it like this and had no idea what it would cost to replace.

Viseras lawn service
03-13-2009, 09:53 PM
I came up with about 7,200...

etwman
03-13-2009, 09:58 PM
Are you kidding me, tell me you are kidding me?

What's the quote? "The bitterness of poor quality will linger long after the sweetness of a cheap price is forgotten"

Isobel
03-13-2009, 10:20 PM
If you don't have a clue what this project would cost to demolish completely (and it will need to be completely torn out) and redo, you have absolutely no business even considering it.


well we all have to start [the big projects] somewhere

etwman
03-13-2009, 10:27 PM
yeah but you don't want to lose your shirt doing it....

wurkn with amish
03-13-2009, 11:05 PM
$7200.00 wont even redo the steps... Go to the next job.

Adam's Lawn and Garden
03-14-2009, 11:47 PM
I'd have to imagine that would be about 15-20K to fix. I don't know anything about hardscaping though, well i know the basics but that's it. Would you need engineer stamps for that jarod?

Adam

Hardscaping
03-15-2009, 12:38 AM
i would be close to about 10,000 to redo that. all is there is labour and base material as well as bedding sand and joint sand. your cost in materials would be about $1000 at most your labour would be about 1 week with two guys and you. two hard workers too.

2 weeks labour you are looking at 3600 for you and two guys averaged out to $15 bucks an hour including your government cuts on top of wages. your helper would get about $10 an hour or $12 an hour

Truthfully there are alot of people on this site that are apparently running these huge hardscape companies and know everything. sometimes you just shouldn't listen to them. they have the big company look at everything. huge overhead, guys on hourly salary that take their sweet ass time. i know this because my dad has a comapny where he is not on the job all the time. when he is there they work hard but as soon as he left they slow down. making it seem like they were working that hard all the time making him think the job takes longer then usual.

i go out to everyone of my jobs in person doing the work myself. i have only left employees on jobs a couple times and they took their sweet ass time.

but you seriously do have to be carefull on pricing these jobs sometimes you can get into something were you lose on it. but you live and you learn. you know what your area can take for pricing. sometimes it is better though to be on the higher end to be safe.

i usually come up with a price and add 10% for them to think they get a deal when they knock me down ten percent. but sometimes they just say go ahead and do it.

be carefull make sure you weigh everything out before you get into it.

etwman
03-15-2009, 09:28 AM
Alright, let's go over a few things here:

1. You are not going to re-use material. You're going to get a dumpster and a good track hoe and clean house. Here's why. All those caps are glued down, (and maybe even the block) so there's an entire run of unusable block, step treads etc. Its not worth the time to regrind all that glue off and you can't set material back on top of it and make it level. The pavers, chuck because the chances of them all fitting back together just right and you not needing more are slim to none. Finally, it's obviously been down for a while, which means the inevitable fading issue. You won't match up perfectly in color when you add and it'll look horrible. Bottom line: total tear our and throw out. New material for the job in block and pavers $8-$10k using a nice tumbled block and paver. That's #1.

2. All the base has got to go, it'll be contaminated when you pull it out. In addition you really should pull a couple grid runs in there. Engineering plans? Not really neccessary, but reinsurance if you wanted to go that route. Maybe two grid runs on the lower wall for security reasons and a couple between the upper stairs. There's alot of over excavation to do it right. In addition, you'd better put the right drainage in there.

3. Two weeks with a solid crew of three with tearout, reconstruction, lighting, planting and that's if you have your ducks in a row and your efficient. You want a good foreman on that job who knows what he or she is doing. A good foreman will keep a crew moving. In addition, you'll need a good arsenal of equipment on that because you have many different aspects.

A reputable hardscape company that knows what they are doing will fall between $30-$40k on that job. I know for a fact there are guys in this industry who fall in this category that are reading this saying absolutely. I don't want to come accross as insulting guys who really want to do this type of work. I think passion is great and it leads to some good installers. But you have to learn to walk before you run. This is a running job. Start with a small walkway, then go larger. Everyone who has posted in this thread is telling me this is over thier head. If you can't price it right it tells me right away experience is lacking. Start smaller, get a handle on things, do it right, and you'll be at these larger jobs in a couple of years.

wurkn with amish
03-15-2009, 11:09 AM
Jarod apparently you don't read all posts.....
"originally stated by Wurkin"....$7200.00 wont even redo the steps... Go to the next job.

4 seasons lawn&land
03-15-2009, 12:42 PM
holy waste of time! What preperation or lack of causes this to happen???

Hardscaping
03-15-2009, 01:14 PM
if anybody in the world can get 30 to 40 thousand dollars to rip out and redo this is first of ripping people off. second are so far out to sea with that price that they shouldn't be doing the pricing. 30 to 40 thousand dollars is alot of money and you can do some serious hardscaping with that.i could go do this job the way that you guys are saying for way cheaper then 30 000. i would be around 20 at the most to rip out complete and redo with high quality material.
you saying you cannot reuse the material is bullshit. you can reuse the material and there wouldn't be a problem reusing the retaining wall blocks. the caps are more then likely not glued.

stop being rediculous. i know you are because i am one of the higher priced hardscapers around here. i figure my costs and triple them almost. so my profit margin after my cost is usual 50 percent, ok say what you want about that but it is true i don't get up for nothing.

etwman
03-15-2009, 02:34 PM
$7200.00 wont even redo the steps... Go to the next job.

Sorry, my ball, I didn't see this....true statement.


I'm not going to get into an arguement over pricing. If you can do it for that, you go. But I will tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt we are not "ripping people off." If we were we wouldn't have been doing this for 10 years.

kootoomootoo
03-15-2009, 02:44 PM
stop being rediculous. i know you are because i am one of the higher priced hardscapers around here. i figure my costs and triple them almost. so my profit margin after my cost is usual 50 percent, ok say what you want about that but it is true i don't get up for nothing.


Ok Where is the driveway you asked everyone how to do. 400 questions.
Not a picture in sight.

etwman
03-15-2009, 02:47 PM
I wasn't going to go there Koot....

ford550
03-15-2009, 05:54 PM
That's what you get for going with the lowest price..............Yikes!
I go around and take pictures like this all the time, then I show them to a potential clients. Usually doesn't take much at that point for them to hand over a deposit.

JDavisLandscapes
03-15-2009, 06:37 PM
Thats going to be a headache to redo man......add a LARGE fudge factor into your bid.

Hardscaping
03-15-2009, 06:49 PM
that driveway is in hidden valley here in kitchener i never did the driveway nor has anybody else.
i guess the guy couldn't afford it. i gave him my price of $58 000 i believe it was.
The guy almost **** himself when he heard my price too. couldn't believe it. so you can come down to kitchener and price his driveway for him and then go ahead and do it.

When you give prices you don't always get the job.
I did come to this site to ask questions whats wrong with that.

maybe you are the one who knows everything and doesn't have to ask right.

Or maybe you are that dumb **** that goes around pricing everything for nothing and getting everything leaving the customer with jobs which this thread is about.

don't get on me about anything because what i said is one hundred percent true and you cannot argue that.

How about the guy who posted this thread put some measurements up and we all come up with some hard numbers to show what we are saying.

Oh wait last time i asked anybody to do that they all shut up and didn't say anything else.

All i am saying is that this job yeah you could price it at 40000 dollars yes. no problem but you better be putting one of the most expensive pavers and most expensive srw in.

for what is pictured it is not worth 40000 to redo it. never in a life time. stop being ignorant.

Hardscaping
03-15-2009, 06:54 PM
by the way etw i went to your site, nice site, great pictures. like the mini putt.

the price ranges you have there in no way match what you say in this thread.

NewHorizon's Land
03-15-2009, 07:00 PM
Its not worth 40,000 to redo but thats what its going to cost. Had it been installed correctly the first time it might have cost 1/2 to 2/3 that price

kootoomootoo
03-15-2009, 08:07 PM
that driveway is in hidden valley here in kitchener i never did the driveway nor has anybody else.
i guess the guy couldn't afford it. i gave him my price of $58 000 i believe it was.
The guy almost **** himself when he heard my price too. couldn't believe it. so you can come down to kitchener and price his driveway for him and then go ahead and do it.

When you give prices you don't always get the job.
I did come to this site to ask questions whats wrong with that.

maybe you are the one who knows everything and doesn't have to ask right.

Or maybe you are that dumb **** that goes around pricing everything for nothing and getting everything leaving the customer with jobs which this thread is about.

don't get on me about anything because what i said is one hundred percent true and you cannot argue that.




I think the guy ch.it himself when he heard $39,000 and found you on here asking how to do it.

Adam's Lawn and Garden
03-15-2009, 08:19 PM
Hardscaping can you post some pics of your work? I'm curious to see the work, materials, and prices you bring. See how much of it is where your located. How long have you been in business?

Adam

Hardscaping
03-15-2009, 08:28 PM
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/bboyfrost_7/IMG00090.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/bboyfrost_7/IMG00093.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/bboyfrost_7/IMG00092.jpg

this job i charged 3900 just for labour nothing else. they supplied all material and anything extra needed. i supplied just the interlock they supplied everything else. also this job was already dug out by the guys that are doing the driveway.

Hardscaping
03-15-2009, 08:30 PM
I think the guy ch.it himself when he heard $39,000 and found you on here asking how to do it.


I ended up taking a bit of advice though in this before i priced it. i actually priced it at over 50 grand.

Hardscaping
03-15-2009, 08:33 PM
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/bboyfrost_7/DSC00371.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/bboyfrost_7/DSC00373.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/bboyfrost_7/DSC00376.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/bboyfrost_7/DSC00375.jpg

i priced this at $5200.00 i believe i will check when i get home i got the prices there.

52 feet long average of 3.5 feet height. had to take out a railway tie wall as well.

Hardscaping
03-15-2009, 08:34 PM
i have 5 years direct experience and have my dad uncle and 2 cousins backing me with combined of 60 years experience.

Hardscaping
03-15-2009, 08:40 PM
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/bboyfrost_7/DSC00217.jpg

this planter was 1800. after finished and filled with topsoil. and 1300 for 1200 sq feet of new sod on the front lawn

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/bboyfrost_7/DSC00137.jpg

this one was 2200 for the whole planter plants and everything in it.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/bboyfrost_7/planterbridlewreath.jpg

600 for this supply and install took 3 hours cost 150 dollars.

etwman
03-15-2009, 09:10 PM
by the way etw i went to your site, nice site, great pictures. like the mini putt.

the price ranges you have there in no way match what you say in this thread.

That's because none of them were complete tear outs and redos you goofball. Furthermore, our web site will be completely updated in the next two months anyway. I'm sorry....I missed your website address. Could you share that?

Are those the only three sets of pics you have of projects because that's all you've posted on this site? If they are, none equal the time you would have wrapped up in this one, nor the level of expertise you would require.

"Its not worth 40,000 to redo but thats what its going to cost. Had it been installed correctly the first time it might have cost 1/2 to 2/3 that price ." New Horizons.

Thank you Justin, that mirrors the feedback several others have confirmed in various emails I received. Obviously those who know the industry, know the costs associated with doing work the right way.

Remember people who don't know how to price projects like this end up building projects that look like this. I think that's a fairly true statement.

I'll get off my soap box and more onto other more relevant things...

Hardscaping
03-15-2009, 09:22 PM
either way you guys are right the 7200 price is to low but i would personally do this for 10 to 12 grand not much more. i would reuse everything as much as i could.

unless you are building everything you build on complete clean slate you have some kind of tear out to do.

ETW i am not argueing with you i just said that 40 000 is a bit expensive for that job.

But as the thing is always, the areas are different for prices. some areascan handle higher prices then others. i am not sure about 40 000 for this but i would imagine this area could handle about 20 thousand at abesolute most with the higher end product, for that job. not much more.

I don't know where you are but we are in a recession right now. things are different and prices cannot raise much more then last years.

if you plane on raising your prices up by 25% i really hope you get the work still. i don't hope that anybody goes under but hope that i don't have much more competition then last year.

With all the layoffs you will have much more competition. alot more undercutters. and alot more jobs like the one that this thread is about. therefore alot more work to come in the next five years. But thisw year the industry won't be able to handle much of an increase.

PlatinumLandCon
03-16-2009, 11:51 AM
Hardscaping, get a clue man. I'll be brutally honest and say I wouldn't give you the final cheque for any of those jobs because of how rough they look.

ETW knows his stuff and is factoring in the time and effort it takes to get back to ground zero. Like he quoted Justin of New Horizons, it would be 2/3 of the cost or less if it was a blank slate. That job with a complete tear out and half decent materials would be an easy 30k in Toronto, probably more.

NewHorizon's Land
03-16-2009, 02:08 PM
This is one of the most entertaining post on here.

Hardscaping
03-16-2009, 03:02 PM
Ok for this job the prices vary, from city to city. some place can handle more some places can hand le less.
here we can handle what i said which is about 10 to 12 grand for a redo with the same materials. and closer to 20 grand with complete rip out and redo.

I think that this job could be redone using the same material. with me and two guys we could take that out and stack it nicely in easily two days. then the reinstall would be at most 1 and half weeks.

In my personal opinion with looking at this job through pictures this is the price i would be at. otherwise i need all measurements and other factors as well to figure my prices.

you guys could possibly be right, that this job is worth $30,000.

but in my personal opinion, which is what i was giving is that it is worth 20 grand to rip out and put new materials in.

I just personally think that some jobs have different opinions. The work is worth alot of money, but when you only use 8000 dollars worth of material to do the job, then you shouldn't be charging 40 000 dollars. If people were charging $40 000 for a job wit 8000 worth of material and two weeks labour for three guys then, we would all be rich. Also there ouldn't be threads argueing what your profit margin is. When people say there profit margins are anything over %20 there is a damn uproar. I do jobs and after all expenses then i come out with a profit of over %30. sometimes i get alot more then that.

but in this case with 8000 worth of material the job would yeild of profit would range from $12 000 to $25 000 now explain how you argue only %20 profit margin and then say that you would charge $30 to $40 thousand on a job that would cost total $15000 at most. including labour and overhead.

capnsac
03-16-2009, 03:57 PM
I mow lawns mmkk, overhead sucks there mmkk. I'd take 20, 30, or however whatever percentage I could mmkkk. I'm just saying mmkkk.

etwman
03-16-2009, 05:08 PM
Ok for this job the prices vary, from city to city. some place can handle more some places can hand le less.
here we can handle what i said which is about 10 to 12 grand for a redo with the same materials. and closer to 20 grand with complete rip out and redo.

I think that this job could be redone using the same material. with me and two guys we could take that out and stack it nicely in easily two days. then the reinstall would be at most 1 and half weeks.

In my personal opinion with looking at this job through pictures this is the price i would be at. otherwise i need all measurements and other factors as well to figure my prices.

you guys could possibly be right, that this job is worth $30,000.

but in my personal opinion, which is what i was giving is that it is worth 20 grand to rip out and put new materials in.

I just personally think that some jobs have different opinions. The work is worth alot of money, but when you only use 8000 dollars worth of material to do the job, then you shouldn't be charging 40 000 dollars. If people were charging $40 000 for a job wit 8000 worth of material and two weeks labour for three guys then, we would all be rich. Also there ouldn't be threads argueing what your profit margin is. When people say there profit margins are anything over %20 there is a damn uproar. I do jobs and after all expenses then i come out with a profit of over %30. sometimes i get alot more then that.

but in this case with 8000 worth of material the job would yeild of profit would range from $12 000 to $25 000 now explain how you argue only %20 profit margin and then say that you would charge $30 to $40 thousand on a job that would cost total $15000 at most. including labour and overhead.

Allow me to interpret the above in the photo below.

Ducati996
03-16-2009, 05:34 PM
Ewtman

That was a very fair assesment on the work involved - I bet the reality is the home owner is stuck with that mess and wont be able to spring for a redo.
I doubt this job will move forward with anybody - They also mentioned foundation leakage which opens up another can of worms - cracked foundation? drainage issues? who knows...folks (up North) dont realize it bascially twice the work - rip it out and redo....the potential of not making money is real here, or at the least making a lot less than what you hope for....nobody wants to be on-site there for a month :(
Good call on this job, IMHO

etwman
03-16-2009, 05:46 PM
9 times out of 10 the only way a homeowner (in a lower income bracket home) is going to dig themselves out this this mess is by a lawsuit or home owners insurance claim. It is a huge nut to expend to fix correctly and they usually can't afford it. Often times if they went the lowest quote once and got this, they won't go that route again. Proven experience has shown that if you are the lowest quote to repair this mess (and that homeowner had it originally installed) you won't get the project. I have witnessed many times the lowest quote getting tossed in very similar situations. They were taken advantage once, they won't do it again. However, they really have to trust the next contractor, which is something that can be very difficult to obtain because they are so gun shy. I don't say this to knock low income homeowners, its just they have no idea that they are playing with fire going with the lowest quote for installation.

LBFmd
03-16-2009, 06:38 PM
Hardscape stick to something else. you have changed your tune and now your saying that people your going to make 12-25 thousand, thats a heck of a difference. First off if you think your going to reuse the caps and first layer of block your nuts, and as some else said hope to god they didnt glue any courses. Also what are you going to do about the water in the basement?, geogrid? waste dirt? are you going to reuse the clean stone?( of course not) are you going to dig that whole thing back so its built right? do you need engeineer drawing for the permit? etc etc etc. Maybe you should think this through before you start having brain farts. Part of me thinks you come on hear to see how long it takes before some calls you an idiot ( like your driveway job) Also billing $40,000 ..... why is that a problem? Look at lawyers some charge 350-400 bucks an hour, you hire them for there knowledge and skill, just like a good hardscape guy so you dont wind up sh**s creek without a paddle like they are now.

Also 1.5 days to tear that down with 3 men... with a excavator about 15 minutes spend the extra labor money on new material and be done with it.

And finally as to prices being different in different areas your right but not a 50% difference. Sit down read a good book on p&l's, oh, and cf and then figure your price out, your looking to rosey colored glasses and honestly right now I cant see you doing this job any better then the guy who originally installed it becasue you sound like you dont know what your doing.

PS: All the above was directed at the allknowing Hardscaping..not.


As for the actual job, tear everything dont reuse anything ( customer will feel better), charge what you know you need + profit, dont short change yourself, these people are going to be a pain the entire job becasue they got vaselined the frist time, so your going to have alot of hand holding, figure that into your time. Also make the effort to communcoate with them at every part of the project show them what your doing that way you build trust with them it will make thing smoother for you and for petssake figure that into the job.

DVS Hardscaper
03-16-2009, 06:41 PM
What to do if all else fails:

If you don't know what you're doing you can always do what SeaGee Landscaping did - go bankrupt, have your creditors auction everything off, and then blame the failure on your business partner :usflag:

LBFmd
03-16-2009, 06:45 PM
lmao!! unreal

markam70
03-16-2009, 07:09 PM
What to do if all else fails:

If you don't know what you're doing you can always do what SeaGee Landscaping did - go bankrupt, have your creditors auction everything off, and then blame the failure on your business partner :usflag:

what's the reason for this comment? i guess some people just can't let things go. what an a$$......

DUSTYCEDAR
03-16-2009, 07:21 PM
I THINK I CAN SAVE IT WITH SOME MOSS AND LOCKING SAND:hammerhead:
i see more and more jobs like the above mess
but i can get the same blocks at the depot and not spend 40k i saw the add this week lol.
overhead cost stink but someone has to pay for um

DVS Hardscaper
03-16-2009, 07:31 PM
Hey, you gotta give 'hardscaping' credit, because his topics always turn into 6-10 pages in length! Multipe, insane pages, locked threads - I swear he's related to Rusk-a-roni!

And LBFmd - you damn hill billy - where did you learn to spell? Not in MD you did!

Hardscaping
03-16-2009, 09:25 PM
lol i guess i do keep things interesting. gotta have something to do when we are between seasons.

ParkviewNursery
03-17-2009, 04:35 PM
Got any more pics?, to see the whole area around, i highly doubt water is getting in from the front, unless those steps are leaning towards the house?

riverwalklandscaping
03-18-2009, 12:04 AM
Wow reading this thread just made my week... especially after a pretty lame grade on a finance exam I got handed back today :(

ETW you hit the nail on the head with the statement about the low baller NOT getting the job this time. The homeowner has already learned what they get when they seek out the 'Rays Handyman Services' with a backwards R type landscaper.

No offense Hardscaping but if you have spent much time on this site you should have noticed the extensive experience that ETW and others have on jobs 50 times bigger than this and respect that they probably have a pretty darn good idea of what is needed to do this job. Judging by your pics you don't have the same experience. I am not trying to put you down, I haven't done jobs much bigger myself, but I don't go around acting like I know more than everyone either.

One thing worth mentioning is that what this job would go for greatly depends on the market each person is in also. Paying to get a 100sq foot lawn mowed in downtown Boston costs a hell of a lot more than paying to get a 100sqfoot lawn mowed in front of a condo in rural New Hampshire. I think ETW and others' figures would fall in line for the job to be done in a middle to upscale area using the quality materials, and doing in the right way.

I do think that the job could be done for less in some areas however. There are guys who:
-own their equipment and therefor have lower machine related expense because they are not renting.
-who have extensive experience in this type of job and do a good job and charge 30$ an hour for labor(rural location), and there are some who do the same quality work for 100$ an hour(new jersey etc).
-some guys would pay their under the table employees 10$ an hour, and some have employees that cost them 30$ because they have proper taxes taken out, and are given health and dental, workman's comp, retirement cont, etc.
-believe it or not some guys don't know that LOLwes is NOT where you buy materials and pay 3 times what they should for plants and materials.
-some people pay more for materials simply because of the area they operate and service (again think of gas prices near an interstate vs a rural area)
-some companies can demand a premium simply because their name is reputable
-some companies offer better warranties than others
-and on and on and on

Hell when I started 4 years ago being a poor college kid I couldn't wrap my head around the concept of how expensive landscaping was and was charging way less than I should have. After a few years of experience and carefully reading this site and others, listening to the advice of people like ETW, DVS, etc I have learned how to price things right, and that trying to bring something to a customer with an "oh most landscapers rip you off, charge too much, mark things up to much, blah blah" will end you up bankrupt or without a shirt or whatever. For the most part in this economy prices are set by supply and demand, and by the market in general. If a job costs 25 grand, that's because that's what it takes to do it. If it costs less, your going to get less, with exception to market conditions like I listed before.

You said ETW was crazy, don't you know we are in a recession. This statement in itself is not all that brilliant... "WE" are in a recession doesn't apply equally to people who have not lost their job or taken a pay cut, and people like you who stop spending just because they read in the paper that it's a bad economy are the unfortunate fuel that adds to fire (the downward spiral that occurs during times of economic downturns). Spending by people that still have jobs is the main thing that is keeping our economy ticking. Consumer spending makes up 70-80% of Our GDP (total spending by consumer, business, gov, and imports-exports). People with jobs NEED TO STOP being scared to spend any money. I am not saying they should spend beyond their means, but there is no reason to put away the wallet just because Katie Couric keeps having a new upsidedown chart each night. I'd much rather people pay guys here on lawnsite to install patios than the government put us farther in debt, spending our tax money on hog smell research and a lobster webcam.

Sorry if I went off on a tangent everyone but talk of the economy gets me going.

Hardscaping
03-19-2009, 02:49 AM
lol i probably shouldn't have stated the economy, i am not one that stops spending because of this i spend more now because more people are willing to cut their prices. This is because they think the sales are going to be hard to come by and lower the price a bit to get that sale. That damn futureshop and staples though holy crap they will not budge on laptops. Just bought one for doing on road quotes this year.

GMTA
03-19-2009, 02:56 PM
lol i probably shouldn't have stated the economy, i am not one that stops spending because of this i spend more now because more people are willing to cut their prices. This is because they think the sales are going to be hard to come by and lower the price a bit to get that sale. That damn futureshop and staples though holy crap they will not budge on laptops. Just bought one for doing on road quotes this year.

Ok so now we'll talk about how your buying laptops for 15 pages until you bring up the next wild idea that runs through your head that no one cares about. You deflect too much and aren't very good at it. We were talking about how your out of line and you answer about bringing up the economy and then onto laptop quotes you won't get. :hammerhead: