Curious about Brown Patch w/ organic

[Pistol]

In the past, I have had problems with brown patch while using synthetic Ferts. I had a great looking lawn for most of the summer, but inevitably i would need to spray fungicide. I don't know if you can avoid it when you combine high N ferts and our hot humid summers.

So does an organic system eliminate or sig. reduce the potential of getting brown patch? Any thought about this?

Thanks, Pistol

[HayBay]

Cultural control
Avoid unbalanced or excessive nitrogen applications particularly where there is a history of the disease. Reduce frequency of mowing. Reduce irrigation, especially late in the day during danger periods.

[Pistol]

Hay,
What does the reduction of mowing do? I don't water any time other than mornings. I am switching over to an organic system: Scotts organic fert., leaf compost & worm poop topdressing. Thanks

[quackgrass]

Brown patch gets really bad when you combine frequent night watering with water soluble quick release synthetic fertilizer in the spring or early summer.

Using a slower release organic will certainly help, try to put most of it down in the fall and very early spring so you don't need much in late spring or summer.

Topdressing with peat or compost is a great idea.

Discontinue frequent night watering with morning drenches a couple times each week. If some areas are getting stressed, go ahead and cool them down with a noon mist.

Aerate. aerate aerate again.

Over seed with a resistant species of grass.

Tell the customer you don't spray fungicides until all the above criteria have been met, because it will just come back.

[Smallaxe]

Switching to an organic system should work well. Scott's fert still uses high water soluable N - in the organic mix - doesn't it.

I looked it up one time and it seemed there were some 'cheats' in there that were water soluable ready to go , but slow release.

How much do you let the soil dry between waterings? How deep are the roots into the soil profile?

[Kiril]

So does an organic system eliminate or sig. reduce the potential of getting brown patch? Any thought about this?

I have had great results in controlling summer/brown patch with compost. As others have noted, there are additional factors that you can control as well which will help reduce your chances of getting it.

[mrkosar]

anybody use this company's products?

http://www.callnrg.com/Organicproducts.html

[HayBay]

pistol,

frequent mowing renders fine turf more susceptible, as the fungus gains entry through wounds

[Smallaxe]

Cultural control
Avoid unbalanced or excessive nitrogen applications particularly where there is a history of the disease. Reduce frequency of mowing. Reduce irrigation, especially late in the day during danger periods.

That is exactly what I was thinking about in relation to common diseases!!!
Do you have any good and concise website articles.

[Kiril]

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/TOOLS/TURF/PESTS/index.html

[Smallaxe]

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/TOOLS/TURF/PESTS/index.html

Good brief overview of caring for lawns, however their dethaching and aeration photos were pretty nuts. Is this how a warm season turf looks after dethatching in the winter. Bare ground?

Unfortunately they didn't discuss the 'why' a particular practice is better for disease control. And it is probably different from warm season to cool season crops.

[Kiril]

Good brief overview of caring for lawns, however their dethaching and aeration photos were pretty nuts. Is this how a warm season turf looks after dethatching in the winter. Bare ground?

No, that is not a lawn (or doesn't look like one to me), and the typical turf in NorCal is fescue. Using the verti-mower they showed, that is kinda what your turf can look like when you are done.

Unfortunately they didn't discuss the 'why' a particular practice is better for disease control. And it is probably different from warm season to cool season crops.

You asked for concise.

[Smallaxe]

...You asked for concise.

The next concise discussion of 'why' certain practices work better, article you come across, then? :)

thanks

[Marcos]

In the past, I have had problems with brown patch while using synthetic Ferts. I had a great looking lawn for most of the summer, but inevitably i would need to spray fungicide. I don't know if you can avoid it when you combine high N ferts and our hot humid summers.

So does an organic system eliminate or sig. reduce the potential of getting brown patch? Any thought about this?

Thanks, Pistol

I found this gem the other day, when I was trolling around on the 'net looking for nice, clean printable evidence to support the (true) stance that cotton seed meal will gradually lower soil pH:

http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1920s/1929/290584.pdf

Obviously...much of our Great Depression ancestry knew their stuff! :clapping:

But wisdom like this seems to have been lost to most of their WWII-era offspring, and the Baby Boomers that came afterward, because the rapid-fire "progress" of war-inspired chemical technologies raced ahead of simple common sense... much, much too rapidly!

(some interesting stuff....mercury perceived as a turf nutrient still, in 1926!:laugh:)

[Smallaxe]

...

http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1920s/1929/290584.pdf

Obviously...much of our Great Depression ancestry knew their stuff! :clapping:

But wisdom like this seems to have been lost to most of their WWII-era offspring, and the Baby Boomers that came afterward, because the rapid-fire "progress" of war-inspired chemical technologies raced ahead of simple common sense... much, much too rapidly! ...

That was a fun article. Actual testing with clear observation, actual analysis without excessive presuppositions. :)

An actual observation that the moist lush growth was more susceptible to servere consequence of 'Patch'.

They had established the idea of - 'Patch' weather.
Then, they observed, that High N applications during, 'Patch' weather - made the problem worse.

I think it was a fellow by the name of Jerry Crowler that coigned the phrase, "... educated beyond your intelligence."
That could easily be applied to chemical technologies racing ahead of common sense.

I think today the Tech. has replaced common sense.

[Marcos]

I think it was a fellow by the name of Jerry Crowler that coigned the phrase, "... educated beyond your intelligence."
That could easily be applied to chemical technologies racing ahead of common sense.

I think today the Tech. has replaced common sense.

:laugh:
My dad used to get a real kick out of listening to Jerry Crowler.
That's about the only time my step-mom would yell at him to turn down the stereo!

As far as chemical technologies replacing common sense, I don't 100% agree with you.
I think America has ALREADY been there - done that, as a society.

I think in many ways, with more utilization of IPM principles, the use of more and more organics in general, + the ever-present necessity for us now to conserve more of our travel resources while moving from job-to-job, if not to save gas, but to save extra $$$ for the outrageous grocery bills!, we've in many ways already begun to turn the corner back toward "common sense" thinking again.

[Kiril]

we've in many ways already begun to turn the corner back toward "common sense" thinking again.

........... yet we still plant turf in regions with scarce water resources.

[Marcos]

........... yet we still plant turf in regions with scarce water resources.

AZ, NV, NM, ID, UT, & parts of CO, WY & TX
Amen. I couldn't agree more.

But it's not like we have any ability to stop alot of the population from shifting there.
What's going to happen....(unfortunately for the ecosystem AND the people there now)....is the Ogallala Aquifer system is going to be depleted to the point the where it'll be next to impossible to use most of it any longer, commercially.

It'll be about that same point in time we'll see a massive surge of people away from the Great Plains, and back to where they originally came from: the East Coast, Michigan, Ohio, the Dakotas, etc...

[Smallaxe]

Necessity is the Mother of invention.

When we 'have to' adapt, to a world with no water, - we - then tend to use common sense. To survive.

When the sky's the Limit, to have the best lawn in the neighborhood, we believe anything that makes the grass green as - " The Secret" .
Common sense, not withstanding. :)

Which brings up an interestting point. :

Are we growing turf that could survive on the Natural Rainfall of a particluar region?
If we are not, then what are we doing?
Grasses were able to thrive without our help b4, now - What have we done to make it better??

[bicmudpuppy]

I manage, maintain, grow turf in the high desert for recreational and educational purposes. My home is on natural desert scape w/ no turf and very little vegetation. I also do not irrigate at home. I have offered to put in some minimal drip if the wife wanted some flowers, and I'm looking for a good spot to hide a veggie garden at the golf course :)

[Marcos]

Necessity is the Mother of invention.

When we 'have to' adapt, to a world with no water, - we - then tend to use common sense. To survive.

When the sky's the Limit, to have the best lawn in the neighborhood, we believe anything that makes the grass green as - " The Secret" .
Common sense, not withstanding. :)

Which brings up an interestting point. :

Are we growing turf that could survive on the Natural Rainfall of a particluar region?
If we are not, then what are we doing?
Grasses were able to thrive without our help b4, now - What have we done to make it better??

There has been more & more interest in some circles in re-establishing stuff like Buffalograss in the Great Plains states, as a lawn turf.

This fact remains:
Some folks seem to be more than happy to put up with the courser texture of it in order to save irrigation $$.
Others will scream bloody murder the minute they realize what it is, and that it was intentionally planted in their yard.

It's not much different than the classic battle here in the upper transition zone between the respective bluegrass and TTT fescue camps.

[Smallaxe]

No water - no 4 fert apps in 5 months either. It will burn it up.

How much mowing can buffalo grass tolerate?

[Marcos]

No water - no 4 fert apps in 5 months either. It will burn it up.

How much mowing can buffalo grass tolerate?

That's the whole point, Smallaxe! :waving:
Less watering, mowing and fertilizer!

Here....read this.
(Skip down to "Adaptation & Use" if you're pressed for time.)

http://plantanswers.tamu.edu/turf/publications/buffalo.html


Buffalo grass, once established, is full of thin underground stolons that form a dense sod. Therefore, withstanding drought conditions isn't a problem. On the contrary, too much water may actually cause other grasses like bermudagrass to take over...

Somebody lately's been downloading some excellent stuff on the 'net from the late '20s and early '30s! :)
Our grandparents & great-grandparents knew all about this kind of stuff all along.
Now two generations later, we're discovering it all over again! :laugh:
This is from October 1933 :):

http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1930s/1933/3310144.pdf

(the last page...p. 149 is most informative in terms of turf maintenance)

[Smallaxe]

A mowing machine
or a high-cut lawn mower, cutting at a height of 2 inches, will cut
the taller grasses without unduly injuring the prostrate buffalo grass.
Observations indicate that persistent and repeated close clippings of
buffalo grass with an ordinary lawn mower weakens the grass and
encourages the inroads of weeds.

So 2" isn't considered close for Buffalo Grass. I don't cut KBG that close if I can avoid it. :)

We are not rediscovering it as much as we are rereading the archives. Back in the 30s we were largely a rural country, with a sensible understanding of agronomics. Now most wisdom/knowledge/propaganda comes from the city.
For me personally, if the yard isn't comfortable for me to go barefoot in I change it to more user friendly. Stones are more practical in many ways but I will never use them.

[quiet]

Buffalo grass is a prairie grass. If you have a couple acres and wanna do just minimal work on a lawn: cutting it every couple of months, don't care if weeds invade, don't care if your turf has that blowin' in the breeze look, then buffalo is OK.

But if you like the "look" of a lawn, buffalo doesn't make it. Miserable excuse for a turfgrass.

[Marcos]

Buffalo grass is a prairie grass. If you have a couple acres and wanna do just minimal work on a lawn: cutting it every couple of months, don't care if weeds invade, don't care if your turf has that blowin' in the breeze look, then buffalo is OK.

But if you like the "look" of a lawn, buffalo doesn't make it. Miserable excuse for a turfgrass.

You're 100% correct in that everybody's got different their distinct preferences.

But as far as groundwater is concerned, folks living "high-on-the-hog" right now in the great plains states and the southwest U.S. are going to have some gut-wrenching decisions to make in the next couple of decades.....drought or no drought.

Residential lifestyle practices will need to be completely re-thought, inside AND outside the home, including the specific vegetation and/or rock-type matter that would entail a new 21st century definition of a ..........."perfect lawn".
Industry & business will need to be re-tooled to reduce water waste.
Agriculture.....:cry:.....well, agriculture should've never been started in most of those areas in the 1st place! :dizzy:

[Smallaxe]

I remember a PBS special entitled "The Desert Doesn't Bloom Here Anymore". The deal was - they had found water under ground so they started irrigating the desert and started growing some great crops.

Eventually they discovered that all the water pouring through the sand brought up the salt levels in the soil to the point of nothing would grow again.

Would have a little effort to build up the soils and better planning of the crops and therefore using less water have made that experiment a lot more feasible? To me that would have been so much fun to work with, but the reality was just to over kill on everything and exploit the resources rather than conserve them.

Fighting over water is already become a hot button issue for cities right here in Wisco next to Lake Michigan. Most municipalities had outlawed private well within the city limits. Gov't will control water even here.

[Kiril]

Eventually they discovered that all the water pouring through the sand brought up the salt levels in the soil to the point of nothing would grow again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertification

[bicmudpuppy]

Buffalo grass doesn't have that rich, dark green color we are used to for turf, but ?????you don't like the texture? I can show you golf courses in SW Kansas that have buffalo FAIRWAYS. I can show you field trial plots at K-State that, when mowed at 1" look great. At around 2", you get the flowers and seed heads starting to form and it does look a little ragged then. If you can provide a proper grade and mow it at under 2", I like 1.5", but you could go 1.75" without seeing the seed heads and flowers, you now have a lawn that doesn't want more than 2#N/ year and will do fine on half of that. It also will be VERY happy with 17" of total precipitation. The problem is it is a niche grass. It will not do well with more than 24" of total precip. For you southern guys, bermuda does quite well on low fert levels, but the fert needs to be applied at the worst time for everything else. July is great timing for a pound of nitrogen. Cut back the water and watch the bermuda LOVE the heat!! (I said cut back, not stop watering)

[Kiril]

The Niche .......

http://plants.usda.gov/maps/nativity/BO/BODA2.png (http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=BODA2&mapType=nativity&photoID=buda_002_ahp.tif)

[bicmudpuppy]

Kiril, that is a nice graphic, but it won't wash. The eastern third of that map gets way to MUCH natural rain to promote quality buffalo grass. Even NE TX is going to be marginal and above the 24" of natural rainfall. Also, the further north you get, the longer that dormant season gets and the more trouble you may have with invasive weeds. Start a line through the middle of KS and move south. Move the Eastern edge of the zone west to eliminate MO and AR and your on to something. I don't think where I am, here in NW NM gets hot enough to get the summer growth. My season isn't long enough for bermuda, even the newer varieties either.

I've seen some really nice results in SW KS with the newer varieties of seed propagated bermudas too. They have "better" color than buffalo and while they need slightly more water, they are a much better choice than KBG or TTF.

[Kiril]

Kiril, that is a nice graphic, but it won't wash.

The graphic is a link back to the USDA page for Buffalo grass ( Bouteloua dactyloides (Nutt.) J.T. Columbus ).
That particular graphic shows where it is native.

[bicmudpuppy]

This rainfall map (http://maps.howstuffworks.com/united-states-annual-rainfall-map.htm) might help. Only the light green section down the middle is going to be low enough on natural rainfall to not hurt the buffalo grass. The darker green/brown to the west of that band is only a little bit short of what I would like to have for buffalo grass, and might actually be easier to manage. Adding a little bit here or there is much easier than having to much water.

[Marcos]

This rainfall map (http://maps.howstuffworks.com/united-states-annual-rainfall-map.htm) might help. Only the light green section down the middle is going to be low enough on natural rainfall to not hurt the buffalo grass. The darker green/brown to the west of that band is only a little bit short of what I would like to have for buffalo grass, and might actually be easier to manage. Adding a little bit here or there is much easier than having to much water.

Still......a hearty chunk of real estate.

[Smallaxe]

Buffalo grass doesn't have that rich, dark green color we are used to for turf, but ?????you don't like the texture? I can show you golf courses in SW Kansas that have buffalo FAIRWAYS. I can show you field trial plots at K-State that, when mowed at 1" look great. At around 2", you get the flowers and seed heads starting to form and it does look a little ragged then. If you can provide a proper grade and mow it at under 2", I like 1.5", but you could go 1.75" without seeing the seed heads and flowers, you now have a lawn that doesn't want more than 2#N/ year and will do fine on half of that. It also will be VERY happy with 17" of total precipitation. The problem is it is a niche grass. It will not do well with more than 24" of total precip. For you southern guys, bermuda does quite well on low fert levels, but the fert needs to be applied at the worst time for everything else. July is great timing for a pound of nitrogen. Cut back the water and watch the bermuda LOVE the heat!! (I said cut back, not stop watering)

If we got the ground level to the point of doing 1" mowing ... we could play croquet anytime. :laugh: