What about Soil Microbes?

[Smallaxe]

We hope we are feeding the beneficial microbes, when we spread molasses/sugar on the lawn. When we spread high volume water soluable N onto a soil; are we infact feeding the disease microbes?
(As in the case of, 'Brown Patch', for exa.)

We know that many other bacteria/fungi use N in their metabolism as well.
Could it be that high N allows certain disease fungi to become 'so well fed and strong', that they are able to eat more than just dead tissue, but are able to overcome the defenses of living tissue as well? Especially when the living tissue was previously weakened?

Of course all bacteria/fungi love water. :)

[bicmudpuppy]

By "brown patch", are you referring to anything in the lawn that resembles a disease "patch"? Or one of the species of rhizoctonia? Yes, some varieties of rhizoctonia benefit from excessive N, but many of the more common pathogens in the lawn thrive under low N conditions. Dollar spot, many mildews and rusts are in this list. I've never seen rhizoctonia on turf with a HOC above 1". I understands it happens, but I have never seen it. Dollar Spot on the other hand runs wild in 2-3" grass before it migrates to shorter turf. My best treatment for Dollar Spot is .25-.5#N/m. A sulfur or lime treatment will have the same results. Sulfur or Lime (make a 1/2pt change in surface PH) will control many active pathogens in turf. The key is to KNOW your enemy. Healthy turf is the goal and healthy turf is more disease resistant and therefore easier to maintain.

[NattyLawn]

To become an issue you need the plant, the disease, a food substrate for the disease and cultural conditions for the disease to thrive. I think by adding molasses, you're feeding the good guys (and adding them) as well as the bad guys. You're keeping the balance. Throw high N into the mix and when you have the conditions listed above, disease can thrive.

[Smallaxe]

By "brown patch", are you referring to anything in the lawn that resembles a disease "patch"? Or one of the species of rhizoctonia? Yes, some varieties of rhizoctonia benefit from excessive N, but many of the more common pathogens in the lawn thrive under low N conditions. Dollar spot, many mildews and rusts are in this list. I've never seen rhizoctonia on turf with a HOC above 1". I understands it happens, but I have never seen it. Dollar Spot on the other hand runs wild in 2-3" grass before it migrates to shorter turf. My best treatment for Dollar Spot is .25-.5#N/m. A sulfur or lime treatment will have the same results. Sulfur or Lime (make a 1/2pt change in surface PH) will control many active pathogens in turf. The key is to KNOW your enemy. Healthy turf is the goal and healthy turf is more disease resistant and therefore easier to maintain.

That is an intersting thought. Many diseases in the human body are given freedom to rule or be stopped - based on pH of the body.

I also agree that the 'tested pH' could be differentiated from the surface pH allowing the disease to flourish.

Remember, this is a benficial bacteria/fungi vs. the disease versions, of the same critter.

Here, in Wisco, we have a propensity toward an acid soil. The disease fungi will get their boost from the - cool, moist weather - of an average spring.
In your opinion: Is it reasonable to assume that - alkalizing the surface - would help the situation here.

I am not asking that you go out on a limb and - make a claim - Only that you offer what you understand your knowledge to mean. :) thanks for your input.

[Smallaxe]

To become an issue you need the plant, the disease, a food substrate for the disease and cultural conditions for the disease to thrive. I think by adding molasses, you're feeding the good guys (and adding them) as well as the bad guys. You're keeping the balance. Throw high N into the mix and when you have the conditions listed above, disease can thrive.

Adding molasses will also tie up the N for a period while the population grows. As the population grows it feeds the plant , the N, through its dead bodies.

So we've cut off the excessive N and turned it into more of a gradual feed of N to both the the grass plant and the fungal plant.

Does that make sense to you or do you have an alternative POV?

[ICT Bill]

Adding molasses will also tie up the N for a period while the population grows. As the population grows it feeds the plant , the N, through its dead bodies.

So we've cut off the excessive N and turned it into more of a gradual feed of N to both the the grass plant and the fungal plant.

Does that make sense to you or do you have an alternative POV?

Using this practice you will eventually have a site that looks like you have killed the grass, everything turns brown.

What has happened is a huge bacterial bloom, they eat almost every nutrient available in the soil, after a couple of weeks you will have the greenest lawn you have ever seen but it will scare the hell out of you at first

Our tea will do the same if you grow it out for a short period, 12 hours or less, and apply to turf. That is why it should be added at the end of a brew or brewed for at least 24 hours so it can calm down

We have had 2 brown turf phone calls both brewed for a short period, both said the whole neighborhood wanted to know what they had used a week or 2 later, it is the greenest thing you have ever seen

[Smallaxe]

I don't know that I would put down that much molasses or tea, but I see what you are saying.
Thanks for running through that line of thinking with me. :)

[bicmudpuppy]

Here, in Wisco, we have a propensity toward an acid soil. The disease fungi will get their boost from the - cool, moist weather - of an average spring.
In your opinion: Is it reasonable to assume that - alkalizing the surface - would help the situation here.

I am not asking that you go out on a limb and - make a claim - Only that you offer what you understand your knowledge to mean. :) thanks for your input.

This type of control goes back to my youth working for an old man who definitely forgot more than I will EVER know about growing quality turf. Our absolute worst nightmare for disease was Pythium blight, and the cures that worked were short term and expensive. We would do a light lime dusting with drop spreaders at the very first sign of disease. This is on bentgrass greens in KY, The Ohio River Valley (90%+ Humidity year round). Greens in an area where neither the water or soil are naturally basic need lime anyway. We held off on heavy lime applications until fall when the weather "turned". Any lime we used in the summer was subtracted as having already been applied. A light dose of fertilizer has the same affect. The goal is to change that micro climate of the thatch layer where the detrimental pathogen is working and traveling.

[bicmudpuppy]

Using this practice you will eventually have a site that looks like you have killed the grass, everything turns brown.

What has happened is a huge bacterial bloom, they eat almost every nutrient available in the soil, after a couple of weeks you will have the greenest lawn you have ever seen but it will scare the hell out of you at first

Our tea will do the same if you grow it out for a short period, 12 hours or less, and apply to turf. That is why it should be added at the end of a brew or brewed for at least 24 hours so it can calm down

We have had 2 brown turf phone calls both brewed for a short period, both said the whole neighborhood wanted to know what they had used a week or 2 later, it is the greenest thing you have ever seen

Bill, I've got ONE green that shows signs of EXACTLY what you have described above. I was afraid it might be winter damage. This is an area where I was expecting some winter damage. The other 20 greens look really good. They have all been treated the same by ME. The green in question was shoveled clear right after our Christmas snow while I was gone for 4 days. The following morning after they cleared the snow, we had a 6 degree low. Would that type of "hit" have affected the bacillus in a negative sense and the molasses treatments I have put down now have caused what I am seeing? Not asking for a guaranteed diagnosis via virtual reality, but just an opinion? It has seemed to get worse over the last few days. Anything I could look for that would tip me off? Can the bacillus steal enough N in that short of a period to actually cause dessication? or am I looking for a very positive turf response in a matter of days? I have applied 3 applications of molasses about 1 week apart. The rate was just over 2 gal/A the first two times, and 1 gal/A with the last app. I am due to repeat the app again tomorrow. I may put it off a few days. Thanks for the input.

[DUSTYCEDAR]

do you have a pic of the green?

[bicmudpuppy]

I haven't taken a picture yet. Spring is here. Hopefully, I will get a picture tomorrow.

[Smallaxe]

... We would do a light lime dusting with drop spreaders at the very first sign of disease. This is on bentgrass greens in KY, The Ohio River Valley (90%+ Humidity year round). ...
... A light dose of fertilizer has the same affect. ...

Sounds like an article I just read in another thread. :)

[JDUtah]

To me, snow in that circumstance would have acted as an insulator... might be because the microbes froze without the snow covering...

again i said might.

[bicmudpuppy]

To me, snow in that circumstance would have acted as an insulator... might be because the microbes froze without the snow covering...

again i said might.

I've been SCREAMING "might" since before the event. They insisted on shoveling more greens later. It seemed a waste of labor and bad for me agronomically, not to wait until things started to melt. They skinned greens down to the crowns in places with the edge of the shovels, etc. The first app of molasses and ammonium sulfate with green indicator dye made all the "scuff" marks glow almost a neon. Really made the damage seem pronounced. Most of that has recovered already. We are getting grass off of them. Not as much as I would really like, but they are growing. I am pretty sure, with 70+degree days all this week, that we will still aerate, starting Monday.

Now, pictures of the poor turf. I took a plug off it after taking the pictures. Very little green in the plug. You have to look for it in the crowns, BUT the crowns and roots seem to be alive. I *think* it may come out of it. Doubting now that it was the molasses.

[Smallaxe]

To me, snow in that circumstance would have acted as an insulator... might be because the microbes froze without the snow covering...

again i said might.

I often wondered if it was true in other parts of the world. When there is a 'cold front' approaching us it is usually preceded with some form of precipitation. If the High Pressure is dry then we have a buffer for the soil to protect it from 'Dry'.
If the High Pressure goes below 0 degrees F. it is usually preceded by some form of precipitation. Normally it is like you say - an insulating layer. Otherwise we would have frost 11' into the ground, every year.

I have been 'blowdrying' my smaller lawns as I clean them up. When I do they dry up and thaw out more quickly. When the next snow comes - it will soak into the ground as it 'warms up' again. Meanwhile, other uncared for spot will continue to puddle and wash when it warms up.

I'm with bicm., "Don't shovel snow off the grass."

That does bring up another question: What about the ice?

Does spring time ice suffocate grass, when the grass should still be dormant? [we are about 4" thick of ice under the snow piles.]

[Smallaxe]

[QUOTE=bicmudpuppy;2859266] ... I am pretty sure, with 70+degree days all this week, that we will still aerate, starting Monday. ... [QUOTE]

So are you aerating for the purpose of overseeding?

[bicmudpuppy]

[QUOTE=bicmudpuppy;2859266] ... I am pretty sure, with 70+degree days all this week, that we will still aerate, starting Monday. ... [QUOTE]

So are you aerating for the purpose of overseeding?

No, bentgrass is a creeping variety and when forced to grow at the levels we ask it to perform at, thatch is a progressive problem. Also, because the turf is under constant stress, opening up the soil profile to allow good air and water exchange becomes an issue. Not to mention the foot and mower traffic on a daily basis helping with compaction. Budget and available quality sand limit what I can do easily, but in a opportunistic situation, I would aerify three times during the growing season. The middle aerification might be solid tines to prevent undue stress from the heat. I would also vertical mow (verticut) in two directions every four weeks with a light top dressing every other week. Top dressing is normally sand, but many will use a "greens mix" which would mean a peat moss or similar substrate added to the sand to help with moisture and soil structure. This would be an ideal time to mix in some compost imo. The bentgrass will excel and actually over perform with intense cultivation.

[bicmudpuppy]

That does bring up another question: What about the ice?

Does spring time ice suffocate grass, when the grass should still be dormant? [we are about 4" thick of ice under the snow piles.]

For greens, the point where the ice becomes an issue depends on the variety. Many northern courses are overrun with poa annua and poa trivialis as a weed in the putting surface. This weed has become so prolific and adapted to the HOC on putting surfaces that many have opted to manage the weed. Poa will begin to desiccate if under ice for around 45 days. Bentgrass will reliably survive for around 60 days. In areas where the ice would never last that long (like my situation here), instead of using covers to protect from dry, frigid conditions, it is not uncommon to "ice" greens prior to a cold front moving in. This is one of my least favorite tasks. Getting wet when the temperatures are at or near freezing is just not fun, BUT the ice will insulate the ground from the dessication that will occur when temperatures and wind chills plummet.

Almost forgot, if the ice becomes a prolonged thing and your worried about it, any dark substance like Milorganite or similar bio-solid will melt through the ice to allow air exchange to begin again. Black sand or cinders work as well, but might be more messy. Synthetic ferts are NOT recommended. They dissolve and run to central spots and will then burn the turf.

[Smallaxe]

[QUOTE=Smallaxe;2860104][QUOTE=bicmudpuppy;2859266] ... I am pretty sure, with 70+degree days all this week, that we will still aerate, starting Monday. ...

No, bentgrass is a creeping variety and when forced to grow at the levels we ask it to perform at, thatch is a progressive problem. ...

So could you be saying that your 'green care practices' , which makes the grass 'perform' - may be causing 'thatch'?

That is why you would do a spring 'Aeration'? for thatch?

What do you think about spring aeration and spring overseeding?

[bicmudpuppy]

[QUOTE=bicmudpuppy;2860215][QUOTE=Smallaxe;2860104]

So could you be saying that your 'green care practices' , which makes the grass 'perform' - may be causing 'thatch'?

That is why you would do a spring 'Aeration'? for thatch?

What do you think about spring aeration and spring overseeding?

Pushing a grass that propagates readily from stolons and rhizomes (brain dead tonight and don't remember which is primary for bentgrass, sorry) increases the thatch layer. Southern climates have zoysia, bermuda, St. Augustine, and a few others that have similar habit and aggressiveness. Bentgrass is the only one I know of that survives northern climates. Upper end budgets will aerify even more than the 2-3 times per year I would prefer. I also don't do pre-m on greens. They are aggressive enough that a weed as coarse as crab doesn't have a chance in most situations. Even with mechanical cultivation monthly!

Now, spring seeding and aerification............it CAN work. I don't like spring seeding. If the turf is thick enough, spring aerification can really make a big difference in the turf getting a jump on summer and helping it to compete and choke out the other undesirables. Good, thick KB would be an excellent example. If your turf is thin enough to need seed, then the weeds are going to germ too, BUT if that is your best choice, double the rate and do everything you can to kick start the grass seed. Toma used to give a great speech about how to soak KB or rye and pre-germinate the seed prior to planting. Mixing a pre-germ'd seed w/ compost and casting it would be an interesting thing to see. All things being equal, I will seed in the fall. Again, after saying all that, my fert didn't get ordered in time last fall and I there fore didn't get my seed down, so I'm going to slit seed 2000# of KB over the next two weeks in my rough and another 200#'s on my tees. We will start aerifing tees tomorrow. We will drag the cores and top dress with about 1/8th" of sand, seed and re-drag.

[Smallaxe]

[QUOTE=Smallaxe;2860488][QUOTE=bicmudpuppy;2860215]
... We will start aerifing tees tomorrow. We will drag the cores and top dress with about 1/8th" of sand, seed and re-drag.

Sounds like a good strategy for - problem clay soil - as well.

You seed, after you 'sand and drag', the first time. This creates a better seed bed than aeration alone, I assume.

In residential lawns it is easy enough to overseed just about anytime, that here is water available.
We have done that pre-germinated compost thing many times ourselves, and that certainly beats the weeds to the punch. :)

[ICT Bill]

Mixing a pre-germ'd seed w/ compost and casting it would be an interesting thing to see. All things being equal, I will seed in the fall.

Just stand back so that the germinating grass doesn't hit you in the eye it will grow so fast, try it on a small scale around the maintenance building

On the brown green question, I doubt seriously it was the microbes as they are pretty dormant with soil temps under 50 degrees, probably dried out like you said.

If you can mix 5% to 10% compost or worm castings to your sand mix you will be amazed how you can cut back on watering and ferts. I know, organic matter is a bad word in sand based turf, it is something you should play with though.

[bicmudpuppy]

On the brown green question, I doubt seriously it was the microbes as they are pretty dormant with soil temps under 50 degrees, probably dried out like you said.

If you can mix 5% to 10% compost or worm castings to your sand mix you will be amazed how you can cut back on watering and ferts. I know, organic matter is a bad word in sand based turf, it is something you should play with though.

First, my soil temps are reaching above that magic 55 degree mark. Even after the colder temps and getting the water on 100%, I'm still above 55 at 2+". The one inch temps can be a bit below 55 on a frosty day, but are getting well above 60 in the late afternoons. I didn't take a good close up of the brown in the picture, but I cut a 1" plug and when I cut it down to the crowns, I found live tissues. In the last week, the brown area has gone from about 50% brown in the affected areas to just a bit over 10%. By the time I aerify monday, I doubt I will notice. I did skip fert and molasses this week. I will use the last of the synthetic from last year a week from Monday. I plan to apply something close to 20#'s of Milorganite/m before sanding the aerification holes.

My compost isn't even close to ready yet, and I don't have a good way to screen it yet. Getting the irrigation up and running with the repairs means that I sort of neglected my compost piles. I watered them today, and the water was COLD, but the pile temps started to rise immediately with the addition of moisture. I even chased the hose down the temp probe and I couldn't make the temp fall below the original, before moisture, temp. Piles were cooled down to below 90 degrees (mid morning air temp was 58 with an overnight low of 38), but moisture brought the piles up to 100 degrees almost immediately. After we get done aerifiying this week, I will turn them. This will be the first turn that I count. The three piles were originally one pile that wouldn't stay wet and I only let stand for about a week. I added horse manure, watered, and rebuilt the pile into three smaller piles I hope I can manage better.

Going to get back to working on the brewer after next week is over too. The blower I picked up looks like it should do something close to 50" of H20 for pressure and I think the 40" I will ask of it will leave it room to push about 50 CFM. I have to rig a DC circuit for the speed control board.