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puppypaws
03-17-2009, 10:47 PM
I posted a while back that efi's are coming to all mowers shortly because of new requirements by the government for less emmissions and a 22% increase in fuel economy.

I talked with Kohler today and was told they had a 40 hp efi already going into production and were working there way down the line putting efi technology into all their engines.

Hustler, are you looking at this, put me a 40 hp efi on a Super Z and I will be your first Guinea pig.

4.3mudder
03-17-2009, 10:52 PM
I sure hope they get all those kinks work out of the fuel injection systems. It took car companies years, wonder how long for the small engine industry.

MOW ED
03-18-2009, 10:06 AM
OK I get the emission thing and I own 2 26hp Kohler EFI's. They are excellent engines and I would not change a thing. Even with the big Toro Z and a 62 inch deck spinning 3 blades I have never been short of power with a 26. My question is this, how big is too big with the gassers? Why would anyone really need 40 hp? Is it more efficient, cooler, lighter? I have to say that it will use more fuel by design so what is the gain? You can't mow at 25 mph and I am sure we don't have to go 25mph to move from a to b.

I am all for cleaning the air but I can't see how bigger engines can do that even if they are EFI's. I guess in thiking about it if they use big EFI gassers in place of diesels for WAM's there probably will be emission issues that will be resolved but that is about the only positive I can see. I still am pretty sure a diesel can out torque a gasser at lower hps and r's. I need data.

OK so how big is too big? A 40 is also going to weigh more and probably be physically bigger than the 26's. Are we going to be sinking onto lawns or breaking springs on the trailer?

I think big horsepower is great if you are racing. I think they should perfect what we have instead of making them bigger. It might be me but I don't think that high HP is an answer.

Fire away.

kaferhaus
03-18-2009, 10:30 AM
OK I get the emission thing and I own 2 26hp Kohler EFI's. They are excellent engines and I would not change a thing. Even with the big Toro Z and a 62 inch deck spinning 3 blades I have never been short of power with a 26. My question is this, how big is too big with the gassers? Why would anyone really need 40 hp? Is it more efficient, cooler, lighter? I have to say that it will use more fuel by design so what is the gain? You can't mow at 25 mph and I am sure we don't have to go 25mph to move from a to b.

I am all for cleaning the air but I can't see how bigger engines can do that even if they are EFI's. I guess in thiking about it if they use big EFI gassers in place of diesels for WAM's there probably will be emission issues that will be resolved but that is about the only positive I can see. I still am pretty sure a diesel can out torque a gasser at lower hps and r's. I need data.

OK so how big is too big? A 40 is also going to weigh more and probably be physically bigger than the 26's. Are we going to be sinking onto lawns or breaking springs on the trailer?

I think big horsepower is great if you are racing. I think they should perfect what we have instead of making them bigger. It might be me but I don't think that high HP is an answer.

Fire away.

Man I couldn't agree more with that. But the bottom line is that it's too expensive to put FI on the smaller engines... the FI system would cost more than the engine itself.

We use the smallest engines that will operate the machine at it's capacity. I don't need a ZTR that will cut 12" green grass. these machines are too heavy already I rather see them spend R&D money on making them lighter and designing better tires that still give decent grip without tear outs.

Richard Martin
03-18-2009, 10:32 AM
I sure hope they get all those kinks work out of the fuel injection systems. It took car companies years, wonder how long for the small engine industry.

It shouldn't really be the same issue for small engines. Kohler's current EFI offering already works pretty well provided it's installed correctly. Bosch made the first and second generation Kohler EFI and they've pretty much worked the kinks out through the Kohler engines and decades of work with the automotice industry.

The biggest problem Kohler had with it's first and second generation EFI was an unwillingness of consumer acceptance and an inability of mechanics to want to learn how the system works. Mechanics bad mouthing a system that they couldn't or wouldn't understand had a lot to do with the public perception that there were big problems with the Kohler EFI (that didn't exist).

4.3mudder
03-18-2009, 10:40 AM
It shouldn't really be the same issue for small engines. Kohler's current EFI offering already works pretty well provided it's installed correctly. Bosch made the first and second generation Kohler EFI and they've pretty much worked the kinks out through the Kohler engines and decades of work with the automotice industry.

The biggest problem Kohler had with it's first and second generation EFI was an unwillingness of consumer acceptance and an inability of mechanics to want to learn how the system works. Mechanics bad mouthing a system that they couldn't or wouldn't understand had a lot to do with the public perception that there were big problems with the Kohler EFI (that didn't exist).

I guess if peeople are used to how an engine runs on certain thing they want to to stay that way. Easier I guess so the mechanics won't have to learn more about the new products.

kaferhaus
03-18-2009, 10:43 AM
I guess if peeople are used to how an engine runs on certain thing they want to to stay that way. Easier I guess so the mechanics won't have to learn more about the new products.


You're right, but it's silly. EFI is actually very simple to diagnose and repair. Many small equipment mechanics don't know how to use a volt/ohm meter...

Mickhippy
03-18-2009, 11:00 AM
I think 40hp is a little excessive, maybe around the 35hp would/should be acceptable.
I believe Hustler would have to upgrade pulleys, belts etc to run higher HP engines unfortunately. Thats what I was told anyway.

Sounding promising though!

jtkplc
03-18-2009, 11:20 AM
I saw an ad on the back of this month's Lawn and Landscape that Flex-Fuel EFI Kohlers were ready.

topsites
03-18-2009, 12:27 PM
Yup, there goes the cost, these won't be no $700, probably not even $3000.
Won't be long before a lawn mower engine costs as much, or more than a car engine.
But wait, that won't work, so they'll figure out some way to drive up the automotive engine's price.

Now, ladies and gentlemen, don't make me find it.
But what did I say...
The cost of an automobile is going to double in the next 10-15-20 years, and the process started yesterday.

OK I get the emission thing and I own 2 26hp Kohler EFI's. They are excellent engines and I would not change a thing. Even with the big Toro Z and a 62 inch deck spinning 3 blades I have never been short of power with a 26. My question is this, how big is too big with the gassers? Why would anyone really need 40 hp? Is it more efficient, cooler, lighter? I have to say that it will use more fuel by design so what is the gain? You can't mow at 25 mph and I am sure we don't have to go 25mph to move from a to b.

I am all for cleaning the air but I can't see how bigger engines can do that even if they are EFI's. I guess in thiking about it if they use big EFI gassers in place of diesels for WAM's there probably will be emission issues that will be resolved but that is about the only positive I can see. I still am pretty sure a diesel can out torque a gasser at lower hps and r's. I need data.

OK so how big is too big? A 40 is also going to weigh more and probably be physically bigger than the 26's. Are we going to be sinking onto lawns or breaking springs on the trailer?

I think big horsepower is great if you are racing. I think they should perfect what we have instead of making them bigger. It might be me but I don't think that high HP is an answer.

Fire away.

Man, I've been saying this *%&^ since they started dropping 18 horses on puny 48" Wb's... :p
Wasn't even that long ago, I seen as much nonsense in it...
But nobody listened then, if anything they all acted like they do now: More, MORE, MORE!!!

So I have to guess you and I, we're in some kind of a minority, which is to say I agree.
How a 40hp efi is going to pollute less than a 26hp normal aspiration, I'll leave that line to the CEO's to feed out.

puppypaws
03-18-2009, 01:34 PM
I think 40hp is a little excessive, maybe around the 35hp would/should be acceptable.
I believe Hustler would have to upgrade pulleys, belts etc to run higher HP engines unfortunately. Thats what I was told anyway.

Sounding promising though!

The 40 may sound excessive; but according to Kohler it is not really any larger or heavier than their 36. I told them their 40 was more than likely the 38 with efi added and they told me I was correct. It would be nice to have excessive power over a 36 if the engine is actually no larger and the fuel economy was reasonable.

I have always wanted more power than is possibly needed to make for a very easy work load on any engine. I guess I look at hooking one horse to a wagon and him handling it fine; but having to work harder, where I could hook two horses to the same wagon and it would be a much easier work load for both.

You're right, but it's silly. EFI is actually very simple to diagnose and repair. Many small equipment mechanics don't know how to use a volt/ohm meter...

This is a true and correct statement!

kaferhaus
03-18-2009, 01:45 PM
EFI engines control the fuel air mixture about 10 times as efficiently as carburated ones do. That's why you can pollute less and at the same time consume less fuel and make more HP.

A carburated engine is either on the idle curcuit, a combination of the idle and main jet or on the main jet period. There's no fine tuning depending on load, engine temperature air volume etc.

EFI's will even compensate for a dirty air cleaner... the mixture runs leaner at almost all throttle/load settings which further reduce emissions and consumption.

Various sensors on the thottle body, ignition pickup and exhaust tell the computer what the parameters are and the computer makes the required changes to fuel flow and in some cases even ignition advance.

puppypaws
03-18-2009, 02:00 PM
I posted a while back that efi's are coming to all mowers shortly because of new requirements by the government for less emmissions and a 22% increase in fuel economy.

I talked with Kohler today and was told they had a 40 hp efi already going into production and were working there way down the line putting efi technology into all their engines.

Hustler, are you looking at this, put me a 40 hp efi on a Super Z and I will be your first Guinea pig.

I talked with Kohler again this morning and was told it would be 2 to 3 months before the 40 would be in the field. The people working in these companies act to me as though everyone is on a different wavelength, you can get different answers from people working in the same department.

I sometimes get the impression they are only there to make 8 hrs. and draw a paycheck. A number of these people don't appear to have knowledge of their companies products, knowledge I would want them to have if they were on my payroll.

I think this reflects on the countries economic problems, it appears people in the US workforce are looking for a paycheck with little concern for the companies well being.

kaferhaus
03-18-2009, 02:26 PM
I think this reflects on the countries economic problems, it appears people in the US workforce are looking for a paycheck with little concern for the companies well being.



BINGO BINGO BINGO!!

I don't let anyone answer our phone except me and my wife for that very reason.

And I hear guys bitching about their employers all the time (I dont' care who the employer is, they *****) and it's always the boss is stupid, the company is stupid ad nauseum. I have to always fight back from saying "so if you're so smart why aren't you running it or why don't you open your own business and teach those fools a lesson?"

Man if these companies just knew the wealth of alledged "talent" they had right there in house they'd fire all the management and let the inmates take over.

Talent, like cream will always rise to the top. If you don't then it means you aren't working with the companies benefit in mind. Those that do move up through the ranks. That part of life hasn't changed.

Even a an employee in this business it makes a difference. One of my "team leaders" has only been with me less than a year. Several other guys got "pissed" when he got the job over them as they've been with me much longer.

They're good employees, don't get me wrong. But this guy came to work with a smile on his face in the morning, worked his ass off all day, didn't make mistakes, didn't tear up equipment and left at the end of the day with the same smile on his face. He's attentive to customers, if he can't answer a question he calls me right then and gets the answer. And he never refused to work overtime or to come in on a scheduled day off.

Gee why did he get picked over them? Again the other guys on that crew are good guys. But who would you want talking to customers or supervising that job?

The other thing is the guy always "looks clean" even though he can and does outwork every guy on that crew every day. Most of my guys look filthy within 30 minutes of starting work. No matter how many times you tell them that if you work this trimmer from left to right it wont' throw all this crap on you.....

All the crew leaders were picked the same way, I don't hire crew leaders, I hire crew members. Attitude and good wok ethics decides who the crew leaders will be.