What is a "lowballer"???

[parkwest]

Noticed a lot of threads lately using the terms "lowballer" and "scrub" interchangeably.

Traditionally, a "lowballer" was a contractor who knew what he was doing by taking advantage of a person by giving a low bid, then coming back later after the job was started, saying there is going to be additional cost to do the job that wasn't included in his original bid.

A "scrub" on the other hand, is someone who undercharges because of ignorance or lack of experience. He's the one who thinks, since his mower is paid for, he no longer has any expenses. He can't figure out why everyone else is so stupid that they can't operate their business on 100% net profit margin like he does. He has "been in business for 15 years" yet is only 21 y.o. He tells people sharpening blades is a waste of time because dull blades cut just as good. He doesn't have a clue what CPA stands for. And thinks that at age 21 knows everything there is to know about running a business.

Is there any other terms that should be included in a glossary on this site?

[BigJim]

Down here we call them "Cowboys"

[LAWNGODFATHER]

You are correct.

[kerr lawn]

parkwest
i think you did some sterotyping to say that all 21 say they know how to run their business. That is why i get up every mourning, because i have no idea sometimes who i will talk to and what i will learn. Some days it is the same s*** different day. Other days i fall asleep at nite going damm i learned a lot, i was glad to be around for it.
But please have respect for us younger people that are just learning how the world turns, because the text books lied to us. It is yours and my's future and your kids, so rather than put us down for being stupid. Help us out, because it is a lot easy to be nice to someone than be that person's enemy. To be old and wise, i must first be young and stupid.

sharpening blades is the best money and time spent
CPA=Certified Public Accoutant
bryan

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Kerr, he was not referring to you.

[kerr lawn]

i don't care
it just make me mad, because since i went commericial 5 years ago i eat,live, and sleep this stuff. For somebody to come out and say something like that is not cool. As i tell my guys when they first get hired were all in it together, just trying to make some money, if you want to be a d*** tell me now so then you can walk home.

[rodfather]

I agree with everything you said Parkwest with one exception...scrubs come in all ages, shapes, and forms.

[kerr lawn]

thank you rodfather

[LawnLad]

We see scrubs in all forms. Many think, "Hey, if he can run a business, why can't I." So when they get laid off, pissed off a their boss or can't land a job, they figure they'll start a business. Heck, that's what the rest of us did, right? We didn't really choose to go into business for ourselves, we were forced into since we couldn't get jobs elsewhere.

Scrubs will typically make a decision made out of weakness, not strength.

[mxrdrvr3]

Hi guys,

I am kind of siding with Kerr on this one, I spend a couple of hours a day on this site just reading the wealth of info here and its great. This info has helped me tremendously and at the same time has me really wondering!

I am starting my lawncare biz this season part time, I have my Licence, insurance, my equip, my accounting software, biz phone,have paid for advertizing ect ect.........the list goes on!

I have done all my figures and know what it will cost me to operate and complete job A or job B. I also plan to charge accordingly at the current rate most other LCO'S are charging as not to hurt the industry around me, so that means I will have a higher profit than some and not as high as some. I will lose jobs to "competitors" because I am bidding on the "fair" market value for the job. If I bid on a job and my price is fair and what I belive is correct and includes my costs to operate and a profit and its lower than yours I guess all I can say is tuff ****, get over it thats bizz.

I am not here to lowball or to be a scrub, however based on many of the posts that have been flying around here the past couple of weeks on this subject people and YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!!!!!! say part timers are scrubs and low ballers and young kids blah blah blah. I am only 25 Had 4 kids by the time I was 23 , I am married, Own a home, I have car payments just like everyone else does. But because I am young guy some people assume that us "kids" that are wet behind the ears still are stupid. I would refer to it as Inexperianced, so what you were there when u started out also and you learn through your mistakes (I learned from the school of hard knocks myself)try to learn from others and DONT FORGET WHERE YOU CAME FROM!!!!

There are alot of great guys on this site like lawngodfather,65hoss, Lawn lad and many many many others, that have been a tremendous help to me and I am sure that they dont even know they helped me but they give such great info that helps not only the "new" guy but the "seasoned" guy as well. I think that all the good guys here and you know who you are deserve a standing ovation(spelling) for the services they bring to us all on this site. If I were to call a fellow LCO in my area they sure as hell wouldnt tell me all the info I learned here.

To sum it all up I just feel like even though I am following all the proper channels to operate a biz legally,honestly,productively,and have competitive prices, I feel like I am a lowballer or scrub in some of the peoples eyes here because I am young, just starting out, going at it part time and it bothers me(not enough to loose any sleep over...lol). I have seen here in a post that I would be considered a scrub just because I am parttime , Honestly I dont think its fair and people who think that are probobly the ones hurting because they didnt have a good bizz plan or follow through with it, have way to much overhead such as new trucks trailers equipment(not that there is anything wrong with that if you can afford it all) and cant operate at the cost it takes them to operate per hour. They got there self into trouble getting all that new equipment and now are having a tuff time because of the competition getting new customers to pay for it all, they are looking to blame someone for their mistakes so why not blame the new guy for wanting a piece of the pie too!!!!(only a theory) well I have much more to say but this reply is already to long sorry guys I feel much better now getting some of it off my chest.

[proline32]

I would classify a "scrub" as someone who operates under the table and does not pay taxes on the revenues they bring in...
IE anybody who is solliciting to provide services, but is not operating with a state business license nor has a FEIN.

[parkwest]

Roflol

kerr after reading your whining post I looked at your profile and thought this is way to funny.

from kerr's profile:

Your Age 21
Biography kerr landscaping been doing it for last 10 years.

[LawnLad]

Kerr - I can understand your frustration. I know there are some posts that probably shouldn't be up. But everyone is entitled to their opinion - I love America!

I remember starting out pushing lawn mowers up and down the neighborhood streets to my regular cusomters, starting at about age 11 or 12. When I started to drive, I used my parents old station wagon. On the weekends I would rent a trailer from a friend of my mom's for $7.00 a day, $14 for the weekend. By 17 I bought a 5' x 8' landscape trailer, 36" walk behind and a few other things to flush out the trailer. I remember thinking I was on my way. I used to wave to all the other landscapers who were out working too. I don't recall one of them waving back at me. I thought they were arrogant, pompous jerks. They probably perceived me to be a lowballer and/or scrub. Heck, I was only charging $18.00 per hour. They probably had a point.

I remember the advice that one kind landscaper gave me when she pulled over one day to talk with me - seeing that I was starting out. She said, "Never sell yourself short, always sell your self as a professional. In fact, sell yourself beyond what your think your capabilities are today." Meaning, you'll grow into what you're selling.

I knew I had really pissed off the established local landscapers when she called me back to ask me, "What do you think you're doing with all of your advertising? A lot of us have worked years for our customers and you come blazing in here...." blah blah.

The funny thing was that I had always been there working. They just didn't notice me until I started to have the "right" equipment and until my pressence was felt more. Either because I was working next door, or their customers were signing up with me.

My point is that we have all been "there" in some way or another. The difference is in your attitude. Those that don't care, think they know everything there is to know, and don't want to learn - they are the scrubs. Scrubs hurt the image of the legitmate operator since their work is typically substandard and is undervalued. And they typically don't, won't or can't follow through on warranty work because they're either out of business, don't care, or blame it on something other than their own work. Of course, how could they have planted something incorrectly.

A lowballer is not necessarily a bad thing. If you know your pricing, and can make a profit on it, great. I know an established landscaper in the area (1.5 mil plus) that bids some of his plowing work at $40 a truck hour so he can keep the maintenance account - keeps the rest of us from getting in the door on his commercial work. Plowing is his loss leader. Is he a low baller? Yes - on the plowing. But that's his strategy, and the customers buy into it. I'm not going to fault him for it - even though I don't like it. The only way for me to over come it would be to educate the customer as to the advantage of looking at it another way - my way.

A "lowballer" that doesn't know his costs of operation - or doens't realize how much money he's leaving on the table, or doens't care to think about it, is making a mistake and again, hurting the industry. These are the guys that will be out of business faster than you can blink.

Do the guys who have been around a bit get a little jaded because it's the same story as the scrubs come and go? I guess. My suggestion is that we all remember to wave to one another. You might make a positive enough impression even on the scrub so that he does ask enough questions to learn/realize that he doesn't know all and that he's got a lot of learning to do.

I make a point of waving to whomever, large or small. Why? I remember what it was like starting out and getting discouraged because my peers wouldn't recongize me. Granted I work for myself, but in spite, I'm happy to take run circles around them and leave them wondering, "How did he do that." Keep your chin up... you'll get there if you want to.

[bubble boy]

Originally posted by parkwest
Noticed a lot of threads lately using the terms "lowballer" and "scrub" interchangeably.

Traditionally, a "lowballer" was a contractor who knew what he was doing by taking advantage of a person by giving a low bid, then coming back later after the job was started, saying there is going to be additional cost to do the job that wasn't included in his original bid.

A "scrub" on the other hand, is someone who undercharges because of ignorance or lack of experience.

i would agree with these definitions, but what are you going to do? We deal with them in our own backyards every day. Surprise, we have to deal with them here on LS. over 6000 members, not all legit, not all bidding $80 man hr (BTW i don't bid at $80 either )

you do your best within the confines of your market. should a lowballer drive your market price down, deal with it by improving efficiency. if you can't, then you fail and thats competition. look at walmart.

i know there are firms out there trying to charge big bucks to cover their new trucks, their Z's, etc. yah, i'll underbid them. they got too fat, too big too fast. spent money they didn't have, and now costs will sink them. i wont raise the price i make profit at to save the industry. but it can come back to bite me, when i get lowballed. i accept that.

I figure if you told all the firms in my area what i charge, 40% would be about the same. 30% would call me a lowballer and/or a scrub, and 30% would think my prices are high. we'll see whose around in five years.

and i like the term weekend warrior. I know, it is not the correct term literally, as you can be legit and only run weekends. and you can be a scrub five days a week. i just like the sound of it.:cool:

[LAWNS AND MOWER]

Scrubs = Pretenders

LAWNS AND MOWER

[ceaman]

I am so glad I converted from a scrub......

Thanks to you guys here and on plowsite, I have given new respect to the career I have chosen. I am licenced, insured, uniformed, and the contracts are coming... I will do my best to make the most money I can and work smarter.

[gogetter]

Kerr, you have to remember parkwest didn't start off like most guys. He knew all the answers right from the get go.

He made all the right decisions from day one. That's why he runs a million dollar business and really, we're not even worthy to speak to him.

[AK Lawn]

Kerr i am definitly with you on this one, i am 19 years old and have one of the biggest lawn companies in my town (top five) woth over 100+ residential accounts, i don't think of myself as a scrub but there are ignorant people out there that are better than everyone else, not to name any names but that's just who they are, and yea the scrubs do hurt the industry, young and old, but there is enough work out there for everyone, and the real companies will forge themselves ahead of the rest. And yes i did get in to the industry because i enjoyed it, not because i was fired and have just stuck with it. A lot of you will rezent me for the fact that i am only 19, but for being 19 a full time student at CU managing two full time lawn crews and one landscape crew, not to mention fully independent, some of you, one, should think before they label age groups to this business.
I learn something new everyday!
AK Lawn

[lbmd1]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mxrdrvr3
[B]
I also plan to charge accordingly at the current rate most other LCO'S are charging as not to hurt the industry around me, so that means I will have a higher profit than some and not as high as some. ]

Well said MXRDRVR3! If more people entering this field had this mindset, there would be no more lowballers. To quote the going rate and keep up industry rates and standards is very commendable. Like you stated, what you have then is a higher profit than the rest of us, pocketing more profit, but not at the expense of ruining pricing of our industry. To me a lowballer can also be someone who has been in the green industry for years who knows the going rate yet charges less to either get more business for ego, market share, or whatever other reason to show growth at the sake of profitability. Or lowballing a service like aeration or fertilizing to get other services such as mowing contracts or such is not in my mind, "creative marketing". It's giving away profit centers and only hurting other lco's and our industry while at the same time benefiting only the customer. When you start out, it does take a little time to recognize "going rates" but once you know them, to go below them for market share is lowballing.

Mike

[toby]

A few LCO's around here consider me a lowballer because I charge about $5 to $10 less on res. props. Funny thing is my mowing hourly works out higher than theirs. We compare notes sometimes & they think I'm exagertating my hourly. Must be magic.

[kerr lawn]

i'm only 21 but I def not a lowballer in my area
I have regular contact with other landscaping companies big and small and we agree that we are all in ballpark on going rates.
I don't care who you are, what you can do you will never be all that, because no one is. If you need a dump truck to hold your ego and follow you around, don't even talk to me.

It is just sad when there is common place on the web where people of the same line of work can't come to it and compare notes without acting like your in 4th grade.
I have worked my whole life to be where i'm at now and i'm in a very happy position in my life.

Park west it is kinda funny that i'm 21 and i have pushed grass out of nissan datsun when i first started out 10 years ago. Now i have 72 z master efi, 48 hydro, 36 belt driven, weedwackers, blowers, edgers, hand tools, carpentary tools, chainsaws, workers and my own personally experience.
I don't care if your 1 or 101 what is the point of being a complete self-centered, cheap shot, jerk?

[parkwest]

Originally posted by kerr lawn
I don't care if your 1 or 101 what is the point of being a complete self-centered, cheap shot, jerk?

I give up, what is your point?

[kerr lawn]

good i'm glad you finally gave up parkwest
my point is treat people how you want to be treated
on here, at home, and in your daily life. Just me being nice has brought me so many good things.