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jk mow & more
03-24-2009, 06:23 PM
i want to here from everyone which one i should go with bobcat predator pro 61'' cut 37 hp fuel injection air cooled kawi for $9995 or 61'' turf tiger 29hp liquid cooled kawi digital fuel injection for $11900
and way not don t want to hear the response i like this one better let me hear what u got to say*trucewhiteflag*:cool2:

RTR Landscaping
03-24-2009, 07:12 PM
I'm a Scag guy all the way. I've got 2 Turf Tigers and they give me excellent results. They are a little lower profile than some mowers and handle hills well for a Z. The shaft drive system is a plus too. I'm not sure what the other brand uses, but the mule drive system can cause belt problems. All in all the Scag Turf Tiger is the best mower for my company. I also have a really professional dealer with good support on parts and service. I'm sure both of these mowers would probably be fine, I cast my vote for Scag.

Mike Blevins
03-24-2009, 08:25 PM
Scag all the way for me also. There just aren't any dealers around that can match the service and reliability that my dealer offers. No one even comes close. Not to mention I am on my 4th Scag and no problems yet. Bulletproof machines.

dwost
03-24-2009, 10:00 PM
They are both solid choices for sure and you should definitely consider dealer support when making your decision. Obviously extremely important when making this a career. I will, however, throw one more in the mix. How about a Bad Boy 60" AOS w/35hp Cat diesel for $12k? Do a comparison of components vs. price and I think you will be impressed http://www.badboymowers.com/view/37 Dealer support may not be there for you depending on your exact location but if this is not a dealbreaker for you it is worthy of a look for sure. Best of luck as I really don't think you can go wrong with either if it comes down to those two.

puppypaws
03-24-2009, 10:50 PM
i want to here from everyone which one i should go with bobcat predator pro 61'' cut 37 hp fuel injection air cooled kawi for $9995 or 61'' turf tiger 29hp liquid cooled kawi digital fuel injection for $11900
and way not don t want to hear the response i like this one better let me hear what u got to say*trucewhiteflag*:cool2:

Kawasaki does not make a 37 fuel injected engine at this time. The 29 dfi will get better fuel economy of course, but then again you have a much more powerful mower with the 37/61 Predator Pro.

The Predator Pro will mow much faster (12.4 mph) in any type grass than the Scag (12 mph); with an equal cut (both good). The ride will be pretty rough on both, but bearable with low air pressure. You will start out making more money with the Bobcat because of the price difference alone. Then you generate greater income cutting more grass in a shorter period of time.

You say to yourself, how can the Predator Pro cut more grass than the TT with only .4 mph difference in cutting speed. The difference is the 37 hp Bobcat will maintain 12.4 mph at all times, where as the 29 dfi TT will drop speed in heavy cutting.

Predator Pro $9995.00 / TT $11900.00

PP = $1905.00 money savings over the TT

PP will cut more grass in a days time with no difference in cut quality

PP will not be as fuel efficient per hr but will cut more grass which equals out

PP & TT ride and handling no real noticeable difference

TT 29 dfi possible longer life but with more maintenance (liquid cooled)

TT will always maintain higher resale value but will be hard to offset $1905.00

Both are excellent mowers but I think you can see the economic difference.

Razorblades
03-24-2009, 11:05 PM
There is a dealer in Indiana or Illinois that has a Bobcat Predator Pro 72" deck with the 33 HP Generac engine advertised price of $7495.00. Some people don't care for Generac engines but I have one on my Mower (32 HP) and I am very satisfied with it. If you aren't afraid of the Generac powered Bobcat, then that would be an even better deal vs the other two. This dealer has it listed on ebay if you want to check it out or see if your dealer can get you one like it for the same price.

puppypaws
03-25-2009, 12:05 AM
There is a dealer in Indiana or Illinois that has a Bobcat Predator Pro 72" deck with the 33 HP Generac engine advertised price of $7495.00. Some people don't care for Generac engines but I have one on my Mower (32 HP) and I am very satisfied with it. If you aren't afraid of the Generac powered Bobcat, then that would be an even better deal vs the other two. This dealer has it listed on ebay if you want to check it out or see if your dealer can get you one like it for the same price.

I can't say how the Generac holds up but I will say the big block is a horse. I've run one on the Predator Pro and there is nothing close in the Scag TT engine options power wise except the 35 Vanguard.

We put the 33 Generac up against a 28 hp Cat diesel and it was embarrassing for the diesel. We were in very large thick grass that would have choked the diesel down had we not slowed to a crawl and taken a foot of deck out of the grass. The Generac never changed sounds with a full width of cut which was 61", the 28 Cat had a 72" deck but could not handle it with only 60" of the deck in grass.

No one could understand how powerful the big block Generac and Vanguard engines are unless they operated the mowers themselves.

djagusch
03-25-2009, 10:26 AM
Coming from a commercial operation not a farm mower they cut the same amount of grass as long as you maintain the lawns at a decent height. Cut quality goes to the Scag hands down. The 29EFI Kawi has been around for a long time and it time proven for longevity. It also has plenty of power for a 61" deck, I run the 27HP Kawi and have no issues. The .4mph difference I would say is hype. I think another lawnsite member calculated the speed of the 15mph mowers and they were off a couple mph. Really world it's close enough to be the same. You'll save money in fuel with the 29HP. When it comes to build quality and reliability the Scag will out last the PP.

For the 2K difference it wouldn't make me shy away from the Scag. Over the life of the mower you may save that much in fuel. You'll pick it up in resale also. The longevity of the mower comes into play too. Lets say the PP lasts 5 years, I guarantee the Scag will last longer with the same operators and maintenance. 1 extra year would offset the 2K difference and you get the other benefits also.

LLandscaping
03-25-2009, 10:44 AM
I run Scag Turf Tigers we have 3. I just bought a new 61" with the 29DFI today. All my other Scags have 27 Kohlers but I like the torque of the Kawasaki's.

pugs
03-25-2009, 11:41 AM
Kawasaki does not make a 37 fuel injected engine at this time. The 29 dfi will get better fuel economy of course, but then again you have a much more powerful mower with the 37/61 Predator Pro.

Actually they do, but its not quite out yet I believe. It was at their update this year though.

puppypaws
03-25-2009, 01:32 PM
Coming from a commercial operation not a farm mower they cut the same amount of grass as long as you maintain the lawns at a decent height. Cut quality goes to the Scag hands down. The 29EFI Kawi has been around for a long time and it time proven for longevity. It also has plenty of power for a 61" deck, I run the 27HP Kawi and have no issues. The .4mph difference I would say is hype. I think another lawnsite member calculated the speed of the 15mph mowers and they were off a couple mph. Really world it's close enough to be the same. You'll save money in fuel with the 29HP. When it comes to build quality and reliability the Scag will out last the PP.

For the 2K difference it wouldn't make me shy away from the Scag. Over the life of the mower you may save that much in fuel. You'll pick it up in resale also. The longevity of the mower comes into play too. Lets say the PP lasts 5 years, I guarantee the Scag will last longer with the same operators and maintenance. 1 extra year would offset the 2K difference and you get the other benefits also.

You are very fortunate to have perfect grass to cut at all times, and a small enough amount; that it never gets beyond your ability to cut with perfect timing.

Grass that never gets wet and is always cut when dry. Grass you can cut when it reaches exactly 4" in height and you are able to cut at 3 1/2". Grass which never has the lush, moisture laden, heavy growth, accompanied by early spring rain and perfect temperatures for excessive growth conditions.

This being the case you would not notice the power difference in a 25 hp Kawi versus a 37 hp. When your cutting in perfect conditions taking off 1/2" to 1" per cut, power is not an issue. This is not the case with 99.99% of people mowing grass commercially or otherwise.

If you have never cut with the Bobcat Predator Pro your statement "cut quality goes to the Scag hands down" is not creditable. I just finished talking with a dealer that has customers running the PP side by side with their TT's and say there is no difference in cut quality but the PP definitely rides much better. He also told me a customer came in and traded a Scag TT for a new Bad Boy Lightning, he told the dealer Scag was pricing themselves out of the market. The customer said he must have a dealer he could depend on, and Scag was not keeping or acquiring good dealers in this area of the country, (Charlotte, NC).

Scag makes a top of the line mower but the only dealer in this immediate area is a hardware company, and I have no idea of where their service comes from. I honestly don't understand Scags problem, they took their dealership away from the largest farm machinery dealer in the area, which also provided service.

This dealer carries everything Kubota makes, from the largest tractors to their zero turn mowers, along with carrying and servicing Grasshoppers.

I told the dealer about the $11,900.00 price tag on the 29 dfi TT and he said, "no wonder their dealers are having problems, that is a totally ridiculous price in this economy." He then went on to say Hustler was doing the exact same thing, their price increases were coming to fast in the past year for this economy and this was why Bobcat and Bad Boy was out selling everything in his market.

puppypaws
03-25-2009, 03:05 PM
Actually they do, but its not quite out yet I believe. It was at their update this year though.

Kawasaki does not have a 37 hp dfi in production, therefore there is no 37 hp Kawasaki fuel injected engine as far as a consumer is concerned. There are a number of Kawasaki engines being experimented with.

I will say by the end of 2009 there will be 29, 31, 34, and 37 hp Kawasaki dfi vertical shaft air cooled engines in production for zero turn mowers. This will be something everyone has wished for.

This is not hearsay but fact according to the Kawasaki design engineering department.

Pennington Lawncare
03-25-2009, 09:38 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-2008-61-BOB-CAT-PROCAT-ZERO-TURN-COMMERCIAL-MOWER_W0QQitemZ230332254899QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item230332254899&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

This same dealer actually had a 61 inch Predator Pro with 37 hp Kawasaki for $7200 a couple months ago and the auction ended without anyone buying it. No one has bought the 72 inch PP in that auction the past few weeks either. If you are from out of state I don't believe you'll have to pay tax either. I see this dealer hasn't had any Predator Pro's on Ebay with a 61 inch cut recently. He's got a 61 Pro Cat listed but, it's wheel motors aren't as big as the ones on the Predator Pro.

djagusch
03-26-2009, 12:44 AM
You are very fortunate to have perfect grass to cut at all times, and a small enough amount; that it never gets beyond your ability to cut with perfect timing.

Grass that never gets wet and is always cut when dry. Grass you can cut when it reaches exactly 4" in height and you are able to cut at 3 1/2". Grass which never has the lush, moisture laden, heavy growth, accompanied by early spring rain and perfect temperatures for excessive growth conditions.

This being the case you would not notice the power difference in a 25 hp Kawi versus a 37 hp. When your cutting in perfect conditions taking off 1/2" to 1" per cut, power is not an issue. This is not the case with 99.99% of people mowing grass commercially or otherwise.

If you have never cut with the Bobcat Predator Pro your statement "cut quality goes to the Scag hands down" is not creditable. I just finished talking with a dealer that has customers running the PP side by side with their TT's and say there is no difference in cut quality but the PP definitely rides much better. He also told me a customer came in and traded a Scag TT for a new Bad Boy Lightning, he told the dealer Scag was pricing themselves out of the market. The customer said he must have a dealer he could depend on, and Scag was not keeping or acquiring good dealers in this area of the country, (Charlotte, NC).

Scag makes a top of the line mower but the only dealer in this immediate area is a hardware company, and I have no idea of where their service comes from. I honestly don't understand Scags problem, they took their dealership away from the largest farm machinery dealer in the area, which also provided service.

This dealer carries everything Kubota makes, from the largest tractors to their zero turn mowers, along with carrying and servicing Grasshoppers.

I told the dealer about the $11,900.00 price tag on the 29 dfi TT and he said, "no wonder their dealers are having problems, that is a totally ridiculous price in this economy." He then went on to say Hustler was doing the exact same thing, their price increases were coming to fast in the past year for this economy and this was why Bobcat and Bad Boy was out selling everything in his market.

Well maybe this is the issue. Keeping a weekly schedule close will keep you cutting 1" during the spring and less during the rest of the season. No perfect conditions but maybe the Scag deck handles it better I don't know. Dew, sprinkles, or wet grass the mower handles it without a problem. So maybe I don't notice it as much because the deck is working so good.

I have ran a lawn services Bob Cat with a 61" deck before (about 1.5 years ago) and I know it doesn't cut as well. Actually now he runs Scags, go figure.

With the power thing in Turf Mag I think the Hustler rep said in 01 or so the average engine size with a 61" deck was 23 HP and know it's around 30HP. Mowers haven't got much quicker (10 to 12mph was back then also) but guys always think more is better. I would say most over 30HP is overkill if you are mowing grass not brush hogging or skipping cuts.

As for price it's all relative on how you run a business. A solo guy can gross over 100K if they have good business plan. Running a 61" ztr, a 21", and handheld's. Break down the cost of the 12K mower over 3 years (warranty period) and your talking chump change of the operation. It's stuff we use everyday and sitting on it for hours. Why go cheap? I would rather tell a customer that I'm on the best equipment (of course an opinion) than tell them I bought it because it was the cheapest I could find. Just how I operate and works well for me.

Razorblades
03-26-2009, 11:03 AM
It is obvious that there have been people that have switched from Bobcat to Scag and people that have switched from Scag to Bobcat. So nothing has changed, some people like the cut and features of the Bobcat better and some like the cut and features of the Scag better, while others prefer othre brands. Some mowers cut better in certain conditions and on certain types of grass, as you all know. as far as the 30 HP on a 61" deck being overkill. That too, is only opinions. While a 23 HP engine or a 29 HP engine may be anywhere from "adequate" to "kicks a$$" for some depending on whether they bag or mulch, or on hilly terrain, it will also depend on the types of grass they are cutting and how often that they are cutting it. There are definitely quite a few people that will see the added productivity of the 30+ HP engine on the mowers. Some people say that they've never had a need for more that 25 or 27 hp on a 61" deck, that may be true because they never stalled the mower, but I bet they had to slow down alot more than I have to with my 32 hp powered mower. I can say from my experience in demoing 2 mowers just like mine, one with a 29 DFI Kaw. and the other with a Kohler 27 HP engine, (and I demoed them on the same properties that i use my mower on) There was a very noticeable difference in the cutting power and speed and productivity difference with the 32 Generac powered mower compared to the other two. Grass that would slow the other two down considerably would not slow the 32 HP mower at all. Also, with the lower HP engines they would have to work harder which mean't burning gas at a higher rate than normal while the 32 hp mower wasn't working near as hard, therefore not buning fuel at a higher rate because the goveronr wasn't kicking in very much. If you vaccuum alot of leaves and pine straw, you'll also apreciate the extra power of the 30+ HP engines. If your mowing conditions are good enough that you never need more than 27 -29 HP that's great, but don't try to judge whether or not 30+ HP is overkill for those of us who can use the extra power because of our mowing schedules and other conditions or can see the advantage of "not working the engine as hard".

djagusch
03-26-2009, 11:50 AM
It is obvious that there have been people that have switched from Bobcat to Scag and people that have switched from Scag to Bobcat. So nothing has changed, some people like the cut and features of the Bobcat better and some like the cut and features of the Scag better, while others prefer othre brands. Some mowers cut better in certain conditions and on certain types of grass, as you all know. as far as the 30 HP on a 61" deck being overkill. That too, is only opinions. While a 23 HP engine or a 29 HP engine may be anywhere from "adequate" to "kicks a$$" for some depending on whether they bag or mulch, or on hilly terrain, it will also depend on the types of grass they are cutting and how often that they are cutting it. There are definitely quite a few people that will see the added productivity of the 30+ HP engine on the mowers. Some people say that they've never had a need for more that 25 or 27 hp on a 61" deck, that may be true because they never stalled the mower, but I bet they had to slow down alot more than I have to with my 32 hp powered mower. I can say from my experience in demoing 2 mowers just like mine, one with a 29 DFI Kaw. and the other with a Kohler 27 HP engine, (and I demoed them on the same properties that i use my mower on) There was a very noticeable difference in the cutting power and speed and productivity difference with the 32 Generac powered mower compared to the other two. Grass that would slow the other two down considerably would not slow the 32 HP mower at all. Also, with the lower HP engines they would have to work harder which mean't burning gas at a higher rate than normal while the 32 hp mower wasn't working near as hard, therefore not buning fuel at a higher rate because the goveronr wasn't kicking in very much. If you vaccuum alot of leaves and pine straw, you'll also apreciate the extra power of the 30+ HP engines. If your mowing conditions are good enough that you never need more than 27 -29 HP that's great, but don't try to judge whether or not 30+ HP is overkill for those of us who can use the extra power because of our mowing schedules and other conditions or can see the advantage of "not working the engine as hard".

In the same token don't say you need a 30HP plus engine to run a operation.

J&R Landscaping
03-26-2009, 12:07 PM
I like Bobcat mowers. I can't say much about Scags because I have never run them but the seem to hold up and take the abuse very well too. The 37hp kawasaki engine is a nice engine. I had the opertunity to demo one last season and it can and will cut anything your drive through. It is a thirsty engine though.

The larger pumps on the Predator Pro mean fast ground speed (duh) but for me and my properties, it wasn't the best fit. If your mowing larger areas (School fields, larger lots or road work) it would save you a lot of time. If your going to be using it on a lot of normal residentital work as well, it may take some getting used to. It was a whole different machine turning wise compared to my 25hp Bobcat ZT-200 procat mower. I'm sure after a little while, I;d be fine but I'd be worried about employees running it and tearing everything up!

SimonCX
03-26-2009, 01:48 PM
Personally I like the bobcats but you can't go wrong with a scag either, my only problem is turf tigers are 9-12" longer then most other mowers so trailer space can be a issue.

Lawnut101
03-26-2009, 02:42 PM
I think that Bobcat has a real nice cut. I've seen companies using scags, and they haven't left as nice of a cut. There are a lot of factors such as mowing speed, blade sharpness, height of cut and stuff like that. But usually it seems to me like they are very similar machines and leave similar cuts, except for the one company I've seen using them.

Razorblades
03-26-2009, 06:41 PM
In the same token don't say you need a 30HP plus engine to run a operation.

once again, tell me how you can know how much HP I need in a mower to run my mowing operation? Have I told you what my mowing frequency is or what the grass types are or how much leaf vaccuming I do in the fall and winter? The answer is NO I haven't told you! I guess I could get by on 23-29 HP on my mower, especially if I wanted to slow down serveral MPH while doing some of the mowing or when doing Leaves or If I just wanted to work the engine alot harder throughout its life. I just can't believe that you actually made that statement when you have no idea what my requirements are to get my jobs done as fast and efficient as possible. Also, in using your theory, don't tell me that you need a suspension seat or a liquid cooled engine to run an operation.

djagusch
03-26-2009, 07:33 PM
once again, tell me how you can know how much HP I need in a mower to run my mowing operation? Have I told you what my mowing frequency is or what the grass types are or how much leaf vaccuming I do in the fall and winter? The answer is NO I haven't told you! I guess I could get by on 23-29 HP on my mower, especially if I wanted to slow down serveral MPH while doing some of the mowing or when doing Leaves or If I just wanted to work the engine alot harder throughout its life. I just can't believe that you actually made that statement when you have no idea what my requirements are to get my jobs done as fast and efficient as possible. Also, in using your theory, don't tell me that you need a suspension seat or a liquid cooled engine to run an operation.

You didn't take my statement the way it was intended.

It meant if I can't tell the poster he doesn't need a 30 HP plus. Which is what your post says. Nobody should be saying he needs a 30HP plus mower.

Get it?

Razorblades
03-26-2009, 07:59 PM
You didn't take my statement the way it was intended.

It meant if I can't tell the poster he doesn't need a 30 HP plus. Which is what your post says. Nobody should be saying he needs a 30HP plus mower.

Get it?

I never said that the orig. poster needed 30+ HP for his use. I have no idea how much power he needs? I figure he can decide that without me telling him that anything over 30 Hp is "overkill". I just don't agree with posters that put their percieved idea of what the maximum HP should be on a particular sized deck,and anything over that percieved HP becomes "overkill or an ego thing with guys who want "more and more power". I also don't see anywhere that I said you couldn't tell him that he didn't need 30+ HP, I think I said that you shouldn't judge whether people needed 30+ HP if you didn't know what their mowing requirements were?

jk mow & more
03-26-2009, 09:22 PM
i really thankful for all your input guys big help keep it come this ques has nothing to do with a power issue those r the motors i will go with the price is not that that diff so if i can get a bigger motor more power and also i don't like the generac motor but anyway what i was intrested in knowing is what everyone had to say again thanks guys i enjoy hearing it all every little bit helps thanks big help guys

puppypaws
03-27-2009, 04:12 AM
There are definitely quite a few people that will see the added productivity of the 30+ HP engine on the mowers. Some people say that they've never had a need for more that 25 or 27 hp on a 61" deck, that may be true because they never stalled the mower, but I bet they had to slow down alot more than I have to with my 32 hp powered mower. I can say from my experience in demoing 2 mowers just like mine, one with a 29 DFI Kaw. and the other with a Kohler 27 HP engine, (and I demoed them on the same properties that i use my mower on) There was a very noticeable difference in the cutting power and speed and productivity difference with the 32 Generac powered mower compared to the other two. Grass that would slow the other two down considerably would not slow the 32 HP mower at all.

You said the whole thing right here, most everybody needs more power; whether they realize it or not. I can promise anyone that does not have excessive power has their engine rpm's and blade tip speed drop more than they realize. I'm guessing you have a 32 Vanguard and these engines are almost unstoppable.

I've run this engine on a 60" deck through large moisture laden grass that would have stopped my 28 efi in it's tracks and it never dropped over a couple hundred rpm's. I am talking about 30"+ tall Signal grass, I did this on purpose to see what the engine with that particular deck could take. It truly blew my mind, I had no idea any engine and deck could mow through those conditions. My deck and engine would not come close to handling what I put that mower through. It is much easier mowing with too much hp than trying to mow on the borderline of almost enough power..

Razorblades
03-28-2009, 11:10 PM
Puppypaws, My engine is a Generac 32/33 HP engine, which according to factory specs has more torque than the 32 Vanguard.

puppypaws
03-29-2009, 08:49 AM
Puppypaws, My engine is a Generac 32/33 HP engine, which according to factory specs has more torque than the 32 Vanguard.

I've run both engines and believe me you could not tell any difference between the two. They are both so powerful it is truly amazing, nothing seems to change the sound and I have put them into cutting situations that would choke other mowers to the point of killing the engine.

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=84126&stc=1&d=1183519056

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=84128&stc=1&d=1183519139

SfTD_service_CENTER
06-16-2009, 01:33 AM
Actually they do, but its not quite out yet I believe. It was at their update this year though.

cool i hope it will fit on my 34! probly save me some money aftera few thousand hours of use.

marcuslawnguy
06-16-2009, 02:19 AM
In my area I would have to make sure that that bobcat was going to last me a long long time. because I would not be able to sell that thing to save my life. here scags, exmarks, gravelys hold there value extremely well. besides the promo 35 vanguard tt can be had at the same or just a little more than the bobcat and the machine is better and more valuable both in work ability and value.

kb9nvh
06-16-2009, 11:36 AM
Well, I would agree on the SCAG's durability UNLESS it happens to explode in flames on you while your mowing. Not sure why my low hour scag did that to me but no matter what mower you get, if you want it to be around forever you better carry an extinguisher with you because your super duper high zute machine doesnt' stand a chance against a gas fire.


For the 2K difference it wouldn't make me shy away from the Scag. Over the life of the mower you may save that much in fuel. You'll pick it up in resale also. The longevity of the mower comes into play too. Lets say the PP lasts 5 years, I guarantee the Scag will last longer with the same operators and maintenance. 1 extra year would offset the 2K difference and you get the other benefits also.