Organic Pre-Emergent for Bermuda grass problem

[Billdemart]

Hi all,

New poster here.

I am trying to keep my lawn fairly organic if I can. Last year for fertilizer I used Milorganite on the lawn but never really noticed a difference in the grass after using it twice.

This year I bought Concern Weed Prevention Plus 25 lb (Corn Gluten Meal) to try and prevent all of these weeds popping up before the lawn comes in.

Well I don't know if I did it too late or what (I thought Feb/March was ok for this), but my yard has quite a bit of crab grass and broad leaf weeds.

I've been manually pulling them every day but I can't control them all. My neighbors who use KingGreen, Chemlawn etc. don't have any.

But I was trying to do get by with the organic thing.

I live in Georgia and the soil from what I'm told is not good soil, it's very packed clay, which is why the grass possibly doesn't look very good in the summertime.

Should I:

1) Use something else organic to try and remedy this problem?
2) By some type of non-organic spray from the lawn and garden store?
3) Hire a service?

Also should I pay someone to bring in topsoil to help the grass? Get it aerated/dethatched, etc?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thank you,

Bill

[Billdemart]

Not really sure what to do. Unfortunately the weeds are EVERYWHERE. I can't hand pick them even though I have tried for a week. They are popping up 10 times faster than I can remove them.

I guess I'm just going to have to use Weed B Gone or Roundup which I really didn't want to do.

[Kiril]

Not really sure what to do. Unfortunately the weeds are EVERYWHERE. I can't hand pick them even though I have tried for a week. They are popping up 10 times faster than I can remove them.

Timing is critical with CGM applications.

I guess I'm just going to have to use Weed B Gone or Roundup which I really didn't want to do.

Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and use herbicides in order to establish your organic system.

High density stand of turf is what you want .... use whatever methods that are required to get there ..... and compost does a soil good!

[Billdemart]

Thanks for the reply Kiril. Yeah it looks like I was just a bit too late. Perhaps what I put down will help eliminate any more weed germination through the summer.

What does high density stand of turf mean?

Last year I tried two huge garbage cans of compost. We composted everything. Coffee grounds, dead grass, leaves, fruit, vegetables, everything. It got pretty disgusting though. It would have thousands of maggots in there and I couldn't get rid of them. I covered the top but it did no good.

Then the question of how you apply compost also came up which I never could figure out. I guess I need to do some more research.

Thanks for the help!

[tobylou8]

Hi all,

New poster here.

I am trying to keep my lawn fairly organic if I can. Last year for fertilizer I used Milorganite on the lawn but never really noticed a difference in the grass after using it twice.

This year I bought Concern Weed Prevention Plus 25 lb (Corn Gluten Meal) to try and prevent all of these weeds popping up before the lawn comes in.

Well I don't know if I did it too late or what (I thought Feb/March was ok for this), but my yard has quite a bit of crab grass and broad leaf weeds.

I've been manually pulling them every day but I can't control them all. My neighbors who use KingGreen, Chemlawn etc. don't have any.

But I was trying to do get by with the organic thing.

I live in Georgia and the soil from what I'm told is not good soil, it's very packed clay, which is why the grass possibly doesn't look very good in the summertime.

Should I:

1) Use something else organic to try and remedy this problem?
2) By some type of non-organic spray from the lawn and garden store?
3) Hire a service?

Also should I pay someone to bring in topsoil to help the grass? Get it aerated/dethatched, etc?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thank you,

Bill

Not to sound too sarcastic, but your neighbors yard should be ringing some bells. Honestly though, organics require your soil to be in better shape than what you describe. I used organics on clients lawn that insisted I do so ( I guess to "save" the planet ). I concluded that organics take much longer, cost more, and do not make the grass any healthier than synthetic fertilizer. I don't think the grass "cares" (or can tell) whether it's food is organic or not.
I do have a trade secret that always works but if I told you it wouldn't be a secret anymore :laugh: ! Seriously, call a pro with a proven track record. They will know what to do.

[bicmudpuppy]

Not to sound too sarcastic, but your neighbors yard should be ringing some bells.
Wow, that wasn't sarcastic at all, sounds more like a political statement. You just lurk here to bash what the forum is all about?
Honestly though, organics require your soil to be in better shape than what you describe. I used organics on clients lawn that insisted I do so ( I guess to "save" the planet ).
Not that "saving the planet" is a bad thing, but it is possible that all that research over the last two decades talking about the pollution and negative impact of the "spray and pray" technology those that take the easy way out prefer.
I concluded that organics take much longer, cost more, and do not make the grass any healthier than synthetic fertilizer. I don't think the grass "cares" (or can tell) whether it's food is organic or not.
Good cultural practices take longer to fruit, but somethings are worth the work and the wait. As to increased cost..........maybe your technique is as bad as your post.

I do have a trade secret that always works but if I told you it wouldn't be a secret anymore :laugh: ! Seriously, call a pro with a proven track record. They will know what to do.

And your PhD is from WHERE? And you have published and proven your expertise at what fine institutions, recognized by what local and national organizations? that you are so good at this that only a "pro" could do it as well as YOU?


Now, after my rant, back to the OP

How MUCH fert did you apply? Milorganite is a organic, yes. That also means SLOW release. For bermuda, I would suggest you apply any slow release fert fairly early in the spring. My best guess is you applied it mid-summer like all the synthetic fertilizers recommend. That means your bermuda starved when it needed the fert most and about the time it went dormant, your fert kicked in and gave all those weeds a very nice boost.

Your on the right track. It is still early in the new season. If you can aerify, do so. Then try to get your hands on some compost that is CLEAN (weed free and well processed). Maybe somebody close to you knows a good supplier or would sell deliver a load for you. You can hand spread the compost over the lawn after aerifying. A true yard of compost will cover a bit over 1000'sq (1296'sq @ 1/4"). You might try 25# of milorganite over that same 1000'sq with the compost. This may not give the bermuda enough purchase to get you weed free this year, but short of anything that is very invasive, I think you would be weed free if you repeated it again next spring. If you have anything that seems to be "winning" at the end of the fall (some will not be gone, but weeds that are pushing against the bermuda), give in to that burning urge to kill them with a little glyphosphate (round up or similar kill all weed killer). Do not spray until the bermuda is several weeks into dormancy. There would be nothing wrong with waiting until late winter/ early spring IF you can be sure of spraying before bermuda shows any signs of breaking winter dormancy.

I hope that helps. I look forward to any other POSITIVE suggestions those here might have for you. Bermuda, in warm season climates, is fairly easy to cultivate. The aerification will help spread the bermuda. If kept moist for a few days after the aerification, most of the plugs will root as well and help fill in any bad areas.

[tobylou8]

Wow, that wasn't sarcastic at all, sounds more like a political statement. You just lurk here to bash what the forum is all about?

Not that "saving the planet" is a bad thing, but it is possible that all that research over the last two decades talking about the pollution and negative impact of the "spray and pray" technology those that take the easy way out prefer.

Good cultural practices take longer to fruit, but somethings are worth the work and the wait. As to increased cost..........maybe your technique is as bad as your post.


And your PhD is from WHERE? And you have published and proven your expertise at what fine institutions, recognized by what local and national organizations? that you are so good at this that only a "pro" could do it as well as YOU?


Now, after my rant, back to the OP

How MUCH fert did you apply? Milorganite is a organic, yes. That also means SLOW release. For bermuda, I would suggest you apply any slow release fert fairly early in the spring. My best guess is you applied it mid-summer like all the synthetic fertilizers recommend. That means your bermuda starved when it needed the fert most and about the time it went dormant, your fert kicked in and gave all those weeds a very nice boost.

Your on the right track. It is still early in the new season. If you can aerify, do so. Then try to get your hands on some compost that is CLEAN (weed free and well processed). Maybe somebody close to you knows a good supplier or would sell deliver a load for you. You can hand spread the compost over the lawn after aerifying. A true yard of compost will cover a bit over 1000'sq (1296'sq @ 1/4"). You might try 25# of milorganite over that same 1000'sq with the compost. This may not give the bermuda enough purchase to get you weed free this year, but short of anything that is very invasive, I think you would be weed free if you repeated it again next spring. If you have anything that seems to be "winning" at the end of the fall (some will not be gone, but weeds that are pushing against the bermuda), give in to that burning urge to kill them with a little glyphosphate (round up or similar kill all weed killer). Do not spray until the bermuda is several weeks into dormancy. There would be nothing wrong with waiting until late winter/ early spring IF you can be sure of spraying before bermuda shows any signs of breaking winter dormancy.

I hope that helps. I look forward to any other POSITIVE suggestions those here might have for you. Bermuda, in warm season climates, is fairly easy to cultivate. The aerification will help spread the bermuda. If kept moist for a few days after the aerification, most of the plugs will root as well and help fill in any bad areas.
OOPS, my bad. I read the mans post and offered him free professional advice based on what he asked.Wasn't trying to step on your organic toes (which seem to be VERY sensitive). As far as cultural advice, you didn't mention mowing practices, watering freequency (he may not be able to depending on what part of Ga he lives in), and what is the lawn used for (just to name a few). Does he possess the confidence to spray roundup on his lawn? Does he know what bermuda looks like when it is braking dormancy? Taking your advice and spraying at the wrong time could kill his lawn entirely. Thats why they make selective broadleaf herbicides that don't harm grasses or the environment.They only kill broadleaf weeds not grass,always read and follow label directions, the label is the law! (maybe you didn't know this). Maybe you didn't know this either; it doesn't take a Phd to grow grass. Does George Toma have a Phd? My bonafides;Va state certified applicator both 3a and 3b.14 very successful years as a solo LCO. Low marketing budget ( I only take referrals, only work for rich people ). Now if he could only take the advice you gave him and put it on his lawn it might loosen up his hardpan Georgia clay.

[bicmudpuppy]

OOPS, my bad. I read the mans post and offered him free professional advice based on what he asked.Wasn't trying to step on your organic toes (which seem to be VERY sensitive). As far as cultural advice, you didn't mention mowing practices, watering freequency (he may not be able to depending on what part of Ga he lives in), and what is the lawn used for (just to name a few). Does he possess the confidence to spray roundup on his lawn? Does he know what bermuda looks like when it is braking dormancy? Taking your advice and spraying at the wrong time could kill his lawn entirely. Thats why they make selective broadleaf herbicides that don't harm grasses or the environment.They only kill broadleaf weeds not grass,always read and follow label directions, the label is the law! (maybe you didn't know this). Maybe you didn't know this either; it doesn't take a Phd to grow grass. Does George Toma have a Phd? My bonafides;Va state certified applicator both 3a and 3b.14 very successful years as a solo LCO. Low marketing budget ( I only take referrals, only work for rich people ). Now if he could only take the advice you gave him and put it on his lawn it might loosen up his hardpan Georgia clay.
ROFLMAO, another "self made man" with an opinion that organics are junk. Except you brought your opinion to the ORGANIC forum, where the OP came for advice. No, Toma doesn't have a PhD. BUT, he is a very educated man. I lectured to him in Wichita in '86 and returned the favor and sat in on his lecture later that same day at the KTF fall conference. I was involved in some of the original Post and Fusilade studies on the selective removal of warm season grasses in cool season turf. I believe you, your a fantastic mow and bow guy who managed to pass the commercial applicators tests to apply chemicals to turf and ornamentals. Your also an admitted failure at organic practices, answering questions that were asked in the ORGANIC forum. Re-read MY original answer to the OP. I suggested fall spraying FIRST because of the dangers of spraying to late. Recognizing dormant bermuda grass is also something anyone should be able to do. Spraying a week or two after it is dormant as opposed to "right before" it breaks dormancy is the easier route. As to his "hard pan Georgia clay", I would be one of those that firmly believe the best thing for that clay would be turf. Aerification makes turf cultivation easier, but growing something as aggressive as bermuda in pure, hard pan clay, is not something I would be afraid of doing. It is often stated here that compost does a soil good :) Aggressive drought tolerant turf will make soil, given time. Turf doesn't get much more aggressive than bermuda. (There is always St. Augustine if your far enough south)

[Kiril]

:deletes post, Bic covered it::

[Kiril]

Yeah it looks like I was just a bit too late. Perhaps what I put down will help eliminate any more weed germination through the summer.

It will for a while.

What does high density stand of turf mean?

Thick turf (i.e. number of plants per square foot) will prevent most weeds from gaining a foot hold. Since you have bermuda, you will also want to check your thatch layer to determine if that needs to be addressed.

Last year I tried two huge garbage cans of compost. We composted everything. Coffee grounds, dead grass, leaves, fruit, vegetables, everything. It got pretty disgusting though. It would have thousands of maggots in there and I couldn't get rid of them. I covered the top but it did no good.

You should not have maggots in your compost .... worms are good though. You need to look around for list of items that are appropriate for composting ... meat is not one of them. You also might try grinding the stuff up before adding it to the pile.

Bottom line, you need to read some of the literature on proper composting techniques. A C:N ratio of ~30:1 is where you want your pile to be initially.

Then the question of how you apply compost also came up which I never could figure out. I guess I need to do some more research.

Wheelbarrow and rake. Don't dump more than 2 piles or so before raking it out, especially if it hasn't been finished properly. Once you get the hang of it, you will know how far apart to space the piles so you can easily spread it. Depending on how far you have to move the compost, it can take 30-60 minutes per yard. On a small lot, I can do a yard of compost in about 20 minutes.

[Think Green]

Guys,
I do not have a master nor do I have a PhD but after alot of studying organics materials such as Milorganite and Corn Gluten meal, does it in fact have to be applied frequently to build up into the soil to be effective.? Milorganite states on the bag-----multiple applications made throughout the year to be effective. "?"
The expense involved in my business and the speedy effects are not noted in our chemical programs. That is why we pursue chemicalized fertilizers.

[Kiril]

Guys,
I do not have a master nor do I have a PhD but after alot of studying organics materials such as Milorganite and Corn Gluten meal, does it in fact have to be applied frequently to build up into the soil to be effective.? Milorganite states on the bag-----multiple applications made throughout the year to be effective. "?"
The expense involved in my business and the speedy effects are not noted in our chemical programs. That is why we pursue chemicalized fertilizers.

The goal is to get SOM (soil organic matter) to levels around 5-10% in your effective root zone + some buffer depth. This provides a food source for both microbes and plants along with promoting better soil structure and characteristics. You only need enough OM to maintain this level. (i.e. don't be conned into the "you need x applications per year" mindset).

Personally in my soils, the minimum target depth for maintaining the above OM% is 12".

[tobylou8]

ROFLMAO, another "self made man" with an opinion that organics are junk. Except you brought your opinion to the ORGANIC forum, where the OP came for advice. No, Toma doesn't have a PhD. BUT, he is a very educated man. I lectured to him in Wichita in '86 and returned the favor and sat in on his lecture later that same day at the KTF fall conference. I was involved in some of the original Post and Fusilade studies on the selective removal of warm season grasses in cool season turf. I believe you, your a fantastic mow and bow guy who managed to pass the commercial applicators tests to apply chemicals to turf and ornamentals. Your also an admitted failure at organic practices, answering questions that were asked in the ORGANIC forum. Re-read MY original answer to the OP. I suggested fall spraying FIRST because of the dangers of spraying to late. Recognizing dormant bermuda grass is also something anyone should be able to do. Spraying a week or two after it is dormant as opposed to "right before" it breaks dormancy is the easier route. As to his "hard pan Georgia clay", I would be one of those that firmly believe the best thing for that clay would be turf. Aerification makes turf cultivation easier, but growing something as aggressive as bermuda in pure, hard pan clay, is not something I would be afraid of doing. It is often stated here that compost does a soil good :) Aggressive drought tolerant turf will make soil, given time. Turf doesn't get much more aggressive than bermuda. (There is always St. Augustine if your far enough south)
You obviously have a problem with self made men (maybe because we don't need you to tell us what to do).When you denegrate me, you do the the same to George Toma. I came to this thread because of the tag regarding organic preemergent for bermuda. Not being an organophobe, I wanted to see if there had been any advancements beyond corn gluten. When I read the OP, the poster was "fairly" committed to being as organic as possible. Having used organics successfully here in Virginia I gave him free professional advice.I did not tell him they were junk (your word,not mine),and I didn't tell him not to use them.He seemed more interested in results than staying organic. So I told him the truth: slow to work,costly,and most importantly the grass does not know or care whether its food source is organic or synthetic. If you do not believe me you can do the research and read studies of Phd's at Clemson,Perdue,VaTech ( GO HOKIES ),NC State,Penn State,Mississippi State to name a few.And if their bonafides aren't sufficient, there is always IVY league Cornell. As for managing to pass the commercial applicators test, it was pretty easy since my backround pre LCO was in Hazardous materials shipping. While you were "lecturing" George Toma in '86, I was certified as one of the nations first HAZWOPERs and First Responders. Knowing 49 CFR 172 and all it's addendums made the core test and 3a,3b very easy.I had to know all this as well as ICC,FAA,and US Customs regulations to run my operation. I chuckle when people talk about the "toxicity" of OTC pesticides (RUP's are another matter entirely). I was used to reading MSDS's with 3's,4's, and 5's and now occasionally I'll see a 2 (usually flammability). I told VADACS the test was too easy and should be more stringent. My fellow LCO's "loved " that! And why did you tell him to use glyphosate when you could have just said roundup? Is it beneath you to use the"r" word or are you just flouting your "education", or is there a copyright infringement issue? Oh, and it's "mow'n blow", you left out the "l".

[Billdemart]

Now, after my rant, back to the OP

How MUCH fert did you apply? Milorganite is a organic, yes. That also means SLOW release. For bermuda, I would suggest you apply any slow release fert fairly early in the spring. My best guess is you applied it mid-summer like all the synthetic fertilizers recommend. That means your bermuda starved when it needed the fert most and about the time it went dormant, your fert kicked in and gave all those weeds a very nice boost.

You hit the nail on the head here. That is exactly what I did and sounds exactly like what happened.



Your on the right track. It is still early in the new season. If you can aerify, do so. Then try to get your hands on some compost that is CLEAN (weed free and well processed). Maybe somebody close to you knows a good supplier or would sell deliver a load for you. You can hand spread the compost over the lawn after aerifying. A true yard of compost will cover a bit over 1000'sq (1296'sq @ 1/4"). You might try 25# of milorganite over that same 1000'sq with the compost. This may not give the bermuda enough purchase to get you weed free this year, but short of anything that is very invasive, I think you would be weed free if you repeated it again next spring. If you have anything that seems to be "winning" at the end of the fall (some will not be gone, but weeds that are pushing against the bermuda), give in to that burning urge to kill them with a little glyphosphate (round up or similar kill all weed killer). Do not spray until the bermuda is several weeks into dormancy. There would be nothing wrong with waiting until late winter/ early spring IF you can be sure of spraying before bermuda shows any signs of breaking winter dormancy.

I hope that helps. I look forward to any other POSITIVE suggestions those here might have for you. Bermuda, in warm season climates, is fairly easy to cultivate. The aerification will help spread the bermuda. If kept moist for a few days after the aerification, most of the plugs will root as well and help fill in any bad areas.

That helps very much, thank you.

I will get the yard aerated and then try and find some compost and also add the milorganite.

The problem currently though is that the yard is literally covered in broad leaf weeds. Should I just keep mowing to keep them short and wait till the bermuda comes in and chokes them out?

[Billdemart]

mowing practices, watering freequency (he may not be able to depending on what part of Ga he lives in), and what is the lawn used for (just to name a few).

I try to mow once a week and keep it pretty high. We have an in ground irrigation system but of course the law only allows us to water a few times a week and in the middle of the night basically. Last year was midnight to 6am I believe. The kids play on the lawn, that's about it.


Does he possess the confidence to spray roundup on his lawn?

Not if it can kill the grass.

Does he know what bermuda looks like when it is braking dormancy?

No I don't.

Thats why they make selective broadleaf herbicides that don't harm grasses or the environment.They only kill broadleaf weeds not grass,always read and follow label directions, the label is the law!

I have looked into this as well. Would rather not use chemicals if possible but if I have to to start getting it under control before the bermuda comes in, that's OK.


Now if he could only take the advice you gave him and put it on his lawn it might loosen up his hardpan Georgia clay.

That's one of my biggest concerns. Hoping the aeration helps with this? Wondering if topsoil would do anything as well.

Thanks,

Bill

[Billdemart]

Thick turf (i.e. number of plants per square foot) will prevent most weeds from gaining a foot hold. Since you have bermuda, you will also want to check your thatch layer to determine if that needs to be addressed.

How do I check my thatch layer?


You should not have maggots in your compost .... worms are good though. You need to look around for list of items that are appropriate for composting ... meat is not one of them. You also might try grinding the stuff up before adding it to the pile.

Bottom line, you need to read some of the literature on proper composting techniques. A C:N ratio of ~30:1 is where you want your pile to be initially.


I'm pretty sure no meat went into it. My wife did dump whole pieces of fruit in there quite often. The maggots were all over bananas if I remember correctly. I will try it again using the proper techniques. Maybe I'll get one of those barrels that you can turn over, etc.

Thanks!

[Billdemart]

The goal is to get SOM (soil organic matter) to levels around 5-10% in your effective root zone + some buffer depth. This provides a food source for both microbes and plants along with promoting better soil structure and characteristics. You only need enough OM to maintain this level. (i.e. don't be conned into the "you need x applications per year" mindset).

Personally in my soils, the minimum target depth for maintaining the above OM% is 12".

Should I hire someone to find all this out or are there ways to check OM levels myself?

[Kiril]

So I told him the truth: slow to work,costly,and most importantly the grass does not know or care whether its food source is organic or synthetic.

1) Slow to work .... not necessarily, depends on the status of the soil to begin with.

2) Costly .... once again, depends on the status of the soil. Over time inputs WILL decrease which leads to lower costs.

3) Plant does not care .... once again, not necessarily. Chemically speaking you are correct, biologically speaking I would say you are wrong. Plants form relationships with other organisms for a variety of reasons. If you do not promote general soil health, then you are in fact fighting a losing battle. FYI, an all synthetic program does not support general soil health. If you do not believe me you can either .....

do the research and read studies of Phd's at Clemson,Perdue,VaTech ( GO HOKIES ),NC State,Penn State,Mississippi State to name a few.And if their bonafides aren't sufficient, there is always IVY league Cornell.

or have a debate with natural systems that have developed over millennia without human meddling.

[Kiril]

How do I check my thatch layer?

A soil probe or profiler is the typical way. As a home owner, a shovel will work just fine.

http://www.extension.umn.edu/yardandgarden/YGLNews/images/thatch.jpg

The area shown in bracket is thatch. You want to minimize this layer as much as possible. Compost and a healthy aerobic soil will go a long way towards keeping thatch under control.

Should I hire someone to find all this out or are there ways to check OM levels myself?

You should get a soil test done. You can do it yourself, just find a lab to send a sample to and find out what they require for samples. That said, in your case it would probably be easier to hire that out. This is the kind of work I do, but I don't think you want to pay my traveling expenses. ;)

Any good management program includes soil testing, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
How much testing is required depends on what you need to do with the soil. At a minimum you need to establish a baseline to work from, and some follow-up testing to determine if your management goals are being met.

[Billdemart]

A soil probe or profiler is the typical way. As a home owner, a shovel will work just fine.

http://www.extension.umn.edu/yardandgarden/YGLNews/images/thatch.jpg

The area shown in bracket is thatch. You want to minimize this layer as much as possible. Compost and a healthy aerobic soil will go a long way towards keeping thatch under control.



You should get a soil test done. You can do it yourself, just find a lab to send a sample to and find out what they require for samples. That said, in your case it would probably be easier to hire that out. This is the kind of work I do, but I don't think you want to pay my traveling expenses. ;)

Any good management program includes soil testing, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
How much testing is required depends on what you need to do with the soil. At a minimum you need to establish a baseline to work from, and some follow-up testing to determine if your management goals are being met.

Awesome thanks!

[bicmudpuppy]

The ag extension office in most areas will do soil testing. They are often even less expensive than many labs. It usually means the testing is done by the local university (agricultural university) and it might be a few days slower than sending it directly to a lab yourself, but the extension office can help you with the information necessary to collect a quality sample and should be able to provide you a sample bag to put the specimen in.

[bicmudpuppy]

You obviously have a problem with self made men (maybe because we don't need you to tell us what to do).When you denegrate me, you do the the same to George Toma. I came to this thread because of the tag regarding organic preemergent for bermuda. Not being an organophobe, I wanted to see if there had been any advancements beyond corn gluten. When I read the OP, the poster was "fairly" committed to being as organic as possible. Having used organics successfully here in Virginia I gave him free professional advice.I did not tell him they were junk (your word,not mine),and I didn't tell him not to use them.He seemed more interested in results than staying organic. So I told him the truth: slow to work,costly,and most importantly the grass does not know or care whether its food source is organic or synthetic. If you do not believe me you can do the research and read studies of Phd's at Clemson,Perdue,VaTech ( GO HOKIES ),NC State,Penn State,Mississippi State to name a few.And if their bonafides aren't sufficient, there is always IVY league Cornell. As for managing to pass the commercial applicators test, it was pretty easy since my backround pre LCO was in Hazardous materials shipping. While you were "lecturing" George Toma in '86, I was certified as one of the nations first HAZWOPERs and First Responders. Knowing 49 CFR 172 and all it's addendums made the core test and 3a,3b very easy.I had to know all this as well as ICC,FAA,and US Customs regulations to run my operation. I chuckle when people talk about the "toxicity" of OTC pesticides (RUP's are another matter entirely). I was used to reading MSDS's with 3's,4's, and 5's and now occasionally I'll see a 2 (usually flammability). I told VADACS the test was too easy and should be more stringent. My fellow LCO's "loved " that! And why did you tell him to use glyphosate when you could have just said roundup? Is it beneath you to use the"r" word or are you just flouting your "education", or is there a copyright infringement issue? Oh, and it's "mow'n blow", you left out the "l".

Who do you think YOU are comparing yourself to Toma? Education aside, Toma is a great man. He would be a great man regardless of his level of education (and he is not un-educated). That you think you are both "self made" is an opinion of questionable (very) quality. I have met Toma in professional settings on several occasions. He is a master at growing turf in unrealistic conditions. He would also be one of the first to agree with "compost does a soil good". I have seen his lecture on pre-germinating rye for sports fields. (football/super bowls) The rye is mixed with soil/peat/compost/sand depending on the composition of the actual fields original construction. He is NOT a big fan of chemicals and synthetics. Does he use them? sure, but you are using a name that is easily recognized, in an effort to provide credibility to your incredible, uneducated statements. Also, Toma is one of the fore runners in the turf industry advocating interns vs the "self made" route to fame and glory. The experience of working with those who have experience is invaluable.

And WOW, since you "corrected" my spelling, I double checked this w/ the site's spell checker. Took FOREVER to get past all of your mistakes to see that mine read fine :)

[Billdemart]

The ag extension office in most areas will do soil testing. They are often even less expensive than many labs. It usually means the testing is done by the local university (agricultural university) and it might be a few days slower than sending it directly to a lab yourself, but the extension office can help you with the information necessary to collect a quality sample and should be able to provide you a sample bag to put the specimen in.

There has to be some type of ag place in Cherokee County GA. I live in the sticks :)

[bicmudpuppy]

There has to be some type of ag place in Cherokee County GA. I live in the sticks :)

There SHOULD be an Agricultural Extension office (http://www.ugaextension.com/cherokee/) in each county.


Edited to make the URL link work. Internet search engines are a beautiful thing.

[ussoldierforhire]

Should I:

1) Use something else organic to try and remedy this problem?
2) By some type of non-organic spray from the lawn and garden store?
3) Hire a service?

Also should I pay someone to bring in topsoil to help the grass? Get it aerated/dethatched, etc?


bill,

i live just outside of columbus and have the same problem. Huge weed problem out back. my plan of attack is as follows:

1. Spray weeds once and again 10 days later with appropriate spray per weed
2. Wait 10 -15 days for weed killers to work
3. Mow low
4. Aerate the hell out of the yard
5. Top-dress with a nice fine/sandy topsoil I found at a local dealer
6. Re-seed entire yard
7. Starter Fertilizer
8. 60 days later begin regular fertilizer program and continue weed maintenence.


I'm new at this and I'm stuck at home with nothing else to do.

[tobylou8]

Who do you think YOU are comparing yourself to Toma? Education aside, Toma is a great man. He would be a great man regardless of his level of education (and he is not un-educated). That you think you are both "self made" is an opinion of questionable (very) quality. I have met Toma in professional settings on several occasions. He is a master at growing turf in unrealistic conditions. He would also be one of the first to agree with "compost does a soil good". I have seen his lecture on pre-germinating rye for sports fields. (football/super bowls) The rye is mixed with soil/peat/compost/sand depending on the composition of the actual fields original construction. He is NOT a big fan of chemicals and synthetics. Does he use them? sure, but you are using a name that is easily recognized, in an effort to provide credibility to your incredible, uneducated statements. Also, Toma is one of the fore runners in the turf industry advocating interns vs the "self made" route to fame and glory. The experience of working with those who have experience is invaluable.

And WOW, since you "corrected" my spelling, I double checked this w/ the site's spell checker. Took FOREVER to get past all of your mistakes to see that mine read fine :)

Bic, you really are a drama queen. Read the posts again. I never even alluded to myself being in George Toma's league. I only brought Toma's name into the discussion because I knew he did not have a Phd and you challenged my bonafides with the Phd question. Toma has no Phd, yet he is called the god of sod! I really am wondering if YOU have any bonafides! I have been relatively civil, but you make everything a personal attack on me (not my FACTS regarding organics and there efficacy). This is surely not the behavior one would expect from an erudite man. Maybe you aren't! For all anyone in this post knows you're a counter clerk at a big box store pushing organics and pansies. So you went to lecture, shook a few hands (maybe even George's). I too have lectured (although not to George, I am not that pompous to let him sit while I speak). I alluded to my "trade secret" in my very first response to Bills post, yet it was not mentioned by you or anyone else until the 19th post ( you mentioned it in the 21st post). Bill seemed a little desperate and you and the other organo guys just started pushing technique and product ( sounded like a bunch of mow'n blow guys ). The first thing any real professional (or educator) would suggest is a soil test. This man could have spent countless hours and hundreds of his hard earned dollars on product with very little to show for it.Shame on you!:nono: Without a soil test you know absolutely nothing about what is going on in the soil. Only a con man would employ such tactics (or a "religious zealot).

[Smallaxe]

bill,

i live just outside of columbus and have the same problem. Huge weed problem out back. my plan of attack is as follows:

1. Spray weeds once and again 10 days later with appropriate spray per weed
2. Wait 10 -15 days for weed killers to work
3. Mow low
4. Aerate the hell out of the yard
5. Top-dress with a nice fine/sandy topsoil I found at a local dealer
6. Re-seed entire yard
7. Starter Fertilizer
8. 60 days later begin regular fertilizer program and continue weed maintenence.


I'm new at this and I'm stuck at home with nothing else to do.

That's a great project to be stuck at home doing. :)

When I bring in a topdressing topsoil in for seeding, I spread evenly with an iron rake. Next thing is to: finish off the topsoil with the seed and a broom rake. Fills in dips and plants the seed perfectly. :)
Have fun.

[bicmudpuppy]

Hit the diagnostics link at the County Extension site I linked to above. $8 for soil tests for home lawns is a bargain, and the extension agent will most likely give you a hand understanding the results when they come in!

[ussoldierforhire]

That's a great project to be stuck at home doing. :)

When I bring in a topdressing topsoil in for seeding, I spread evenly with an iron rake. Next thing is to: finish off the topsoil with the seed and a broom rake. Fills in dips and plants the seed perfectly. :)
Have fun.

Thanks, I ordered a 75% coarse sand and 25% very fine sifted topsoil mixed together. I'll probably add some manure compost to the mix.

And I'm picking up some DIY soil test kits from Lowes tomorrow. Need to see If I should lime. I have a brand new house and I'm not sure what was done to establish the lawn.

[Kiril]

Thanks, I ordered a 75% coarse sand and 25% very fine sifted topsoil mixed together. I'll probably add some manure compost to the mix.

And I'm picking up some DIY soil test kits from Lowes tomorrow. Need to see If I should lime. I have a brand new house and I'm not sure what was done to establish the lawn.

Yes, you need to get some organic matter in with that topsoil.

Don't waste your money on those big box DIY soil test kits ... they are worthless.
Get a proper soil test done before you start so you know which direction to go.

Also, there is no need to spray herbicides twice unless needed. Spray once, wait and see if it needs a second application. Remember, depending on what you use, you may be waiting 30+ days from the time of your last application before seeding. Read and understand the label before continuing with your renovation.

[bicmudpuppy]

With two GA guys responding, Here is the CHEROKEE COUNTY (http://www.ugaextension.com/cherokee/anr/index.html#_UGA) link for the soil testing services. At $8 and built in support to understand the results, I don't see how a homeowner could go wrong. Now, it might take a week to ten days to get the results back, but I would be down at the extension office Monday AM getting a sample bag and asking what they wanted for sample. If your front vs back or side yard is different, investing in 2 or 3 samples before spending money on product is money well spent.

[Think Green]

How many of you professionals are using any of the Earth Safe products.
I just hooked up with a new commercial chem supplier this week and haven't checked with the costs of each bag.
I want to lean out of the chemicalized fertilizers and go toward organic but with applying chem weed controls, it will cause adverse effects to the products.?

All chime in's welcome.
Thanks

[ussoldierforhire]

Yes, you need to get some organic matter in with that topsoil.

Don't waste your money on those big box DIY soil test kits ... they are worthless.
Get a proper soil test done before you start so you know which direction to go.

Also, there is no need to spray herbicides twice unless needed. Spray once, wait and see if it needs a second application. Remember, depending on what you use, you may be waiting 30+ days from the time of your last application before seeding. Read and understand the label before continuing with your renovation.

Thanks for the info. As far as the organic matter, doesn't the manure compost I'm adding to the topdressing count? What about Peat? I've got a lot of clay so the majority is gonna be sand. Once I get everything leveled and filled in (cracks between sod) then I'm gonna focus more on the organic material.

[Kiril]

Thanks for the info. As far as the organic matter, doesn't the manure compost I'm adding to the topdressing count? What about Peat? I've got a lot of clay so the majority is gonna be sand. Once I get everything leveled and filled in (cracks between sod) then I'm gonna focus more on the organic material.

Organic matter is going to be better for your soil overall than sand will. Pretty much all you will achieve with topsoil on clay is two distinctly different soil types. There will be little mixing of the two layers unless you till it. Over time, there may be some minimal mixing, especially if you have a shrink-swell clay, but certainly not as much as you would see with organic matter.

IMHO, you need to get a soil test before you do anything. The results of that test will tell you the best way to proceed and the most appropriate amendments to use.

[Smallaxe]

How many of you professionals are using any of the Earth Safe products.
I just hooked up with a new commercial chem supplier this week and haven't checked with the costs of each bag.
I want to lean out of the chemicalized fertilizers and go toward organic but with applying chem weed controls, it will cause adverse effects to the products.?

All chime in's welcome.
Thanks

Not really. The main big difference between synthetic water soluable and organic is that one is quickly used at the surface of the lawn and the other is used as bacterial action makes the elements available. Your hericde is not likely to kill the microbes that turn you natural waste products to fertilizer.

Over-irrigation does more damage than any so-called salted synthetic would. The beneficial that work in the soil naturally are aerobic and too much water and compaction it causes it going to elimiate a lot of those. I would focus on soil structure first and foremost.

The reason is that - there are already large amounts of fert tied up in your soil right now that only need to be accessed. Soil structure starts building the roots ability to mine the soil of a whole lot more than it is doing now.

There is way too much talk about getting enough 'INPUTS' - as opposed to - getting healthier soils and better on reduced 'INPUTS". IMO. :)

[Billdemart]

Hit the diagnostics link at the County Extension site I linked to above. $8 for soil tests for home lawns is a bargain, and the extension agent will most likely give you a hand understanding the results when they come in!

That is awesome, thanks!

[Billdemart]

bill,

i live just outside of columbus and have the same problem. Huge weed problem out back. my plan of attack is as follows:

1. Spray weeds once and again 10 days later with appropriate spray per weed
2. Wait 10 -15 days for weed killers to work
3. Mow low
4. Aerate the hell out of the yard
5. Top-dress with a nice fine/sandy topsoil I found at a local dealer
6. Re-seed entire yard
7. Starter Fertilizer
8. 60 days later begin regular fertilizer program and continue weed maintenence.


I'm new at this and I'm stuck at home with nothing else to do.

You are going to seed bermuda? I didn't realize that was an option. What kind of dealer has sandy topsoil?

[Billdemart]

That's a great project to be stuck at home doing. :)

When I bring in a topdressing topsoil in for seeding, I spread evenly with an iron rake. Next thing is to: finish off the topsoil with the seed and a broom rake. Fills in dips and plants the seed perfectly. :)
Have fun.

So you aerate first, then topsoil, then seed? :dizzy:

[Billdemart]

With two GA guys responding, Here is the CHEROKEE COUNTY (http://www.ugaextension.com/cherokee/anr/index.html#_UGA) link for the soil testing services. At $8 and built in support to understand the results, I don't see how a homeowner could go wrong. Now, it might take a week to ten days to get the results back, but I would be down at the extension office Monday AM getting a sample bag and asking what they wanted for sample. If your front vs back or side yard is different, investing in 2 or 3 samples before spending money on product is money well spent.

That is very cool, especially since it is probably like 10 mins from my house.

Is there any way I could just pay someone to do all of that though? I don't want to screw it up.

[ussoldierforhire]

You are going to seed bermuda? I didn't realize that was an option. What kind of dealer has sandy topsoil?

Yes, common bermuda you can seed, hybrid sod or plugs. Sorry for hijacking thread, thread owner

[Billdemart]

Yes, common bermuda you can seed, hybrid sod or plugs. Sorry for hijacking thread, thread owner

Not a hijack at all. I need every possible idea of good advice I can get.

[ussoldierforhire]

what part of ga you in? Outside of Columbus here. Doing my soil tests tomorrow.

[Billdemart]

what part of ga you in? Outside of Columbus here. Doing my soil tests tomorrow.

We are in Canton. Cherokee County.

[DeepGreenLawn]

I think I may be of some assistance. I own an organic lawn care company based out of Woodstock. I just met with a customer yesterday that was strictly organic, to the extreme actually. She has a few things going against her but I will try to outline what my plan of attack will be as well as give some insight as to how we do things. The number one problem that I have had so far is providing enough N for bermuda as it takes so much, about 1lb per 1000 every thirty days.

My company:

Organic-based. We currently have three options. Synthetic, Hybrid, and Organic. Synthetic is just that, Hybrid uses synthetic weed controls and organic ferts. Organic is straight Organic ferts and hand pulling weeds. I typically only use this program once the lawn is in good health and can withstand the weeds on its own. Hybrid is used for lawns such as yours that are heavily infested with weeds as the majority of customers want a weed free lawn now with few exceptions.

This customer I met with in Roswell yesterday has a Bermuda front, Fescue back. It is partial shade and bermuda will not grow in shade so that is a problem we are having. Although I think it will be able to get enough sun to thrive in most areas.

The game plan:
Do a single treatment of synthetic broadleaf weed killer to knock out the majority of weeds. I believe synthetics do have their place. The grassy weeds, such as poa annua, will die off shortly when the heat cranks up so I am not worried about that. Then start with a compost topdress, you will not find a quality compost near by so I have decided to use a mushroom compost from a near by supply company that is generally sterile as my base product. Then begin applying treatments of different organic products such as different meals and CTs and what not with the first concern of being able to provide as much N as possible as quickly as possible. With the spring here and the lawns starting to come to life I am even considering a treatment of Urea to allow the turf to grow properly. Again, synthetics have their place.
Treatments throughout the year and see what we can come up with at the end of the year. Again, its a shaded area so I am unsure if the turf is getting enough sun and we are considering changing from Bermuda to Zoysia which is much more shade and weed tolerant.

Let me know if you want to meet and discuss any processes or what not or if you have any other questions. We are continuously trying and testing new products to help lower the cost of our organic programs. Our current products as well as the labor involved cause the initial starting period, which varies depending on the situation, to be more costly than our synthetic programs.