Research Project

[Smallaxe]

Because of all the disinformation about Springtime Germination of cool season lawn grasses competing with CrabGrass, I am putting together a research project.

In my organic garden I have raised beds that I refresh and reraise every spring. These beds are the first to warm and show life in the spring. Many of the weeds germinate in these beds about the first week in May.

The ground is thawed and the working of the beds has started. Crabgrass took over these beds last year, so they are primed and ready to grow. I plan to level and seed - a parcel of these beds - for a dormant seeding of our standard mix. (KBG, Creeping Red and Per. Rye).

The purpose is to check the influence that, cool season plantings in the spring, have on the population of CG.

I am in Wisco Zone 3 or 4. Results from other Zones and States would be appreciated. Of course there are different factors and temperature/water trends every year, but here we are relatively consistant.... Thanks...

[Smallaxe]

The Forsythia has blossomed and the sunny spot 'dormant seeding' has now germinated. I have spot seeded and composted the remaining thin areas and will hopefully see results soon.

No threat of Crabgrass yet, but it is amazing how many broadleaf weeds will come b4 or with - the cool season grasses!!!
Still... my grass dominates the plot of ground...

The broadleaf weeds are annuals, of course, and I am hoping that some of the grass is of a perennial nature.

Has anyone else done - Springtime overseeding???

[ICT Bill]

The Forsythia has blossomed and the sunny spot 'dormant seeding' has now germinated. I have spot seeded and composted the remaining thin areas and will hopefully see results soon.

No threat of Crabgrass yet, but it is amazing how many broadleaf weeds will come b4 or with - the cool season grasses!!!
Still... my grass dominates the plot of ground...

The broadleaf weeds are annuals, of course, and I am hoping that some of the grass is of a perennial nature.

Has anyone else done - Springtime overseeding???

I believe barefoot james who is much further south from you said to me last august, "I will NEVER overseed in the spring again" must have been a failure on a site that caused great heart burn

You guys may have the temp to do it

[Smallaxe]

I believe barefoot james who is much further south from you said to me last august, "I will NEVER overseed in the spring again" must have been a failure on a site that caused great heart burn

You guys may have the temp to do it

Dormant seeding is always a gamble because the weather can mess with it. But in the irrigated lawns spring overseeding is pretty straight forward.
If you are referring to a complete renovation from nothing then - yeah - You will need some 2,4d by summer time.

The question here is whether I can establish a stand of new cool season grasses b4 the crabgrass starts to grow. Now that the dormant seeding has popped, the race is on. :)

[White Gardens]

I've done many spring over-seedings with great success.

I can see that the thicker lawn might keep the soil cooler so CG doesn't germinate easily. CG is just so aggressive, that even if you have half the germination rate, your not going to actually tell after the plants have sprouted.

This would be a good experiment in a basement, or any controlled environment. The hard part would be to try and count the number of CG seed for each test, and then use it in relation to germinated plants.

Ultimately the fall seeding is only a recommendation. When I took the MG course, the experts informed us that fall is the best time, but you can seed anytime of the year. Fall is just recommended, because it takes the least amount of babysitting to establish a lawn.

Thinking back on it, I did a fall seeding two years ago, and guess what, it failed. Temperatures stayed warmer than normal and we had a dry fall.

So, Ultimately, what's the goal of the experiment. Are you using the started grass as a "ground cover" to compete against the CB??? Just want to know what your results are. Crabgrass is fairly think around here, and it might make me push for more spring seedings.

Also, I think it still too early yet for CB germination, well, at least around here. I usually don't see it pop up until mid-late June. Occasionally I find early sprouts next to my sidewalk where it is considerably warmer. Do you have any CG germination in any other part of the garden ??

[Smallaxe]

One purpose of the experiment would be to demonstrate that Pre-M for CG needn't be applied until the cool season grasses are mature enough to withstand the chemical.

[White Gardens]

One purpose of the experiment would be to demonstrate that Pre-M for CG needn't be applied until the cool season grasses are mature enough to withstand the chemical.


If I'm reading you correctly, then wouldn't be to late to use a Pre-M if the grass has been established, or did you get your plot seeded early enough to stay in the window of a pre-m working correctly in the spring??

[Smallaxe]

If I'm reading you correctly, then wouldn't be to late to use a Pre-M if the grass has been established, or did you get your plot seeded early enough to stay in the window of a pre-m working correctly in the spring??

The grass popping up now is from a dormant seeding done back in March. It came up patchy so now I have overseeded the area again.
[this is an experimental plot in the garden, so there is no pre-existing grass]

Once this new batch comes up then it would be safe to pre-m shortly after that - Or - if I was nervous I could Pre-m now, and be happy with the grass I got from the dormant seeding.
Of course this is an experiment, so I am only testing how much cool season grass I can grow b4 the CG germinates.

BTW, the whole purpose of this is to determine when is the "...window of a pre-m working correctly in the spring??"

[dishboy]

Don't PreM's work by root pruning. Is not root pruning counterproductive for healthy turf at any stage of turf development.

[Smallaxe]

It doesn't 'prune' roots so much as it acts as a hormone that suppresses root growth.

I am artificially watering the new seeding and there is new germination taking place all the time now. Still from the dormant seeds. Too early soon for the new seed to possibly be starting.

No signs of CG yet...The new grass is giving the broadleaf weeds a run for there money as well.. :)
The asparagus popped yesterday so the soil temps are becoming more favorable.

[White Gardens]

I see what your doing now, sorry for all the questions, was just trying to understand what you are trying to achieve.

Looking in my garden yesterday, it appears the CG is just starting to sprout here,(if what I was looking at was CG) so I wouldn't think it would be much longer in your area Axe.

[Whitey4]

I did a renovation on my lawn last spring, and also on a customer's property. I used Siduron on both. It seemed to somewhat control the CB, but far from 100%, maybe 50%.

On my lawn I hand pulled every CB sprout I could see, for 15 minutes in the am, and again in the evening. On the customer's lawn, one with a history of heavy infestation, the CB just took over. I repeated the renovation in the fall, and it looks fine so far this spring, although I did go heavy on my Dimension app. My lawn turned out great, but it was only because I spent near a half hour a day handweeding about 1.5k of turf.

I will NOT do any more spring renovations, period. The turf just does not have the root system to compete with the CB once it really gets going. I go with ONLY weed control, even if the lawn is a mess, and then renovate in the fall now.

I'm surprised any of you are seeing and CB already. Even in untreated lawns, it usually doesn't show up here until late May. I'm zone 6-7. It is likely germinating, but no tip growth here yet.

[Smallaxe]

My cool season grasses are at the 2 leaf stage right now. So still too early for Pre-M...

They haven't really grown at all since they got about an inch and a half tall. Suppose to warm up now for the next week with overnight lows in the 40s instead of 30s. We might break 70s for daytime highs. [Zone 3 or 4]

If the dormant seeding takes off in the lawns with trees, the CG will never even germinate unless we cut the turf too short and allow it to shrink back with the heat and drought in July/August.
[CG was designed to provide cover for soil if nothing else is covering it adequately. All I am really doing is providing soil protection that doesn't necessitate the involvement of CG.]

The whole purpose of this experiment was for LCOs to learn the proper timing for their region, in getting something going on their clients' brown, muddy, dusty, ugly spots b4 even worrying about CG.
I have the barren patch @ 50% coverage and probably another month or even 2 b4 the CG even thinks about germinating.

Spring overseeding is important here because many lawns are abused with fert/water and are subject to winter kill.