Composting and Aerating in the Spring...Is this bmp?

[TMGL&L]

I understand the basic concept of "OM doing a soil good," and of course that aeration is good for properties of course as well.... But I have a few questions about basic use of compost in general.

1. What is a common amount of applications/ top dressings per year for a good "program." One, two, . . . three-hundred?

2. I had a professor once say that adding compost top dressing in the Spring risks bringing weed seeds to the property during their time of germination. Is this true? should I be worrying about bringing in a truckload or two of seeds and compost? He said the same for aeration, saying that it risks excavating seeds that would have germinated and rotating them to the surface. In general he pushed for lawn renovations to be done in the Fall rather than the Spring. How much truth is there to these statements? I plan to use cgm on a property soon, but I am thinking of aerating, ct'ing, composting, and seeding in the coming weeks.

3. I have a property (not watered) that is still kinda thin. Last year I overseeded, ct'd, added kelp, 7-2-12 twice, and cgm'd in the spring. Its still a bit thin. I was planning on just feeding it this year with ct, kelp, cgm, and maybe some soy or something, and doing a good top dressing in the Fall. Should I move my Fall plans to the Spring?

thx

[Smallaxe]

... 2. I had a professor once say that adding compost top dressing in the Spring risks bringing weed seeds to the property during their time of germination. Is this true? should I be worrying about bringing in a truckload or two of seeds and compost? He said the same for aeration, saying that it risks excavating seeds that would have germinated and rotating them to the surface. In general he pushed for lawn renovations to be done in the Fall rather than the Spring. How much truth is there to these statements? I plan to use cgm on a property soon, but I am thinking of aerating, ct'ing, composting, and seeding in the coming weeks.

3. I have a property (not watered) that is still kinda thin. Last year I overseeded, ct'd, added kelp, 7-2-12 twice, and cgm'd in the spring. Its still a bit thin. I was planning on just feeding it this year with ct, kelp, cgm, and maybe some soy or something, and doing a good top dressing in the Fall. Should I move my Fall plans to the Spring?

thx

I know the idea isn't popular - for the same reason as you just expressed. "A profeessor told you..."
But I have to say, very little compost nowdays will carry weed seeds. You will always run the risk of weeds bringing in topsoil , compost, sand, or anything that may bring some weeds in with it. However, your biggest enemy is the wind. It will SURELY bring in weed seed without restraint. Starting with dandelion.

If there is a 'thin' or 'bare' spot on the ground your weed will germinate. Unless you pre-m the thin and bare spots.

If you had frozen ground during the winter aeration is an exercise unless you have a specific 'real thatch' problem you are dealing with. Even clay compaction is relieved temporarily by frost.

The Rule of Thumb is: When in doubt - punt! [you don't need to do the whole thing to see if it works]
The rule of business is: Don't make the same mistake twice.

For me - the best time to overseed is when I feel comfortable that it will germinate. Weeds are mostly an insignificant side bar, even, if they happen to germinate b4 my grass. Better than bare spots - I always say. :)

[TMGL&L]

Well the ground isn't necessarily compacted, its that I know the property has never been aerated and that I want to get ct, compost, air, and other good stuff into the rhizosphere in the beginning of the year to maybe build the lawn now...early. This way the lawn has the entire season to start to thicken... Unlike last year where I overseeded in the Fall, at a bad time that just so happened to be two full dry weeks in a row. Then it started to get cold.

He'll pay for pretty much whatever I want to do. I'm just looking for the best thing to do for him and his property. Only problem I will have is that he won't water much and neither will I because I'm too busy. so I must rely on the sky.

I could go safe and do the cgm now, have now weeds, and slowly build my grass with no seed until Fall, plus I'm really really really busy so if I would do the overseeding I will have to move other things further down the road.

[Smallaxe]

Well the ground isn't necessarily compacted, its that I know the property has never been aerated and that I want to get ct, compost, air, and other good stuff into the rhizosphere in the beginning of the year to maybe build the lawn now...early. This way the lawn has the entire season to start to thicken... .

Excellent reason to do what you planned... .

[TMGL&L]

It hasn't ever had a real weed problems ever then again pre-m's have been used during those years. Do I still need to worry about them this year? Could I maybe get this year free of weed problems maybe? I know some of my properties that are near perfect and THICK have now need for cgm but I use it anyway just in case.

I'll keep updates on this property posted.

[Smallaxe]

Pre-m is actually great in the way that it works. Any seed that is in position to geminate-- will germinate. The pre-m then kills it with false root hormones and it will never germinate again!!!

After a couple years of this - there is no chance of anything more germinating. Unless of course you decide to put down, new seed, at the proper depth and coverage, that will not be killed by pre-m.

Constant aeration (plugging) however can always bring up new seeds from the depths - into optimum germination range. Only you can tell for sure on your particular lawn.

[TMGL&L]

Another quick question to add here. say I aerate then i want to add say... seed, a granulated kelp/ seaweed, spray ct, and compost, does it ever matter what order I do it in? I know it all works but does anyone put thought into this? Like if I spray ct on the aerated ground it will go straight onto the roots where as if i compost then spray I will put the microbes right on their food.

...any thoughts?

[Kiril]

Your professor is right on both counts. Compost CAN contain weed seeds depending on the source material and if it was composted properly. Then there is also storage of the compost ... which can inadvertently pick up weed seeds from nearby sources.

If it were me in your case I would seed and compost, then aerate and compost this summer and fall. If thatch is a problem use a verti-mower before doing a fall over seed.

[Smallaxe]

Another quick question to add here. say I aerate then i want to add say... seed, a granulated kelp/ seaweed, spray ct, and compost, does it ever matter what order I do it in? I know it all works but does anyone put thought into this? Like if I spray ct on the aerated ground it will go straight onto the roots where as if i compost then spray I will put the microbes right on their food.

...any thoughts?

I would think getting the ct on as much soil in the rhizosphere as possible , then covering it with its food would give them a chance to grow in both directions. That's my thought.

[Kiril]

I would think getting the ct on as much soil in the rhizosphere as possible , then covering it with its food would give them a chance to grow in both directions. That's my thought.

If there is irrigation on the site I would spray the CT last and water all of it in with the irrigation system.

[TMGL&L]

Your professor is right on both counts. Compost CAN contain weed seeds depending on the source material and if it was composted properly. Then there is also storage of the compost ... which can inadvertently pick up weed seeds from nearby sources.

If it were me in your case I would seed and compost, then aerate and compost this summer and fall. If thatch is a problem use a verti-mower before doing a fall over seed.

...So wait, so that is a Spring, Summer, and Fall top dressing and a Summer and Fall Aeration.

There is like zero thatch here. Its very bare and the ground hardly holds any water. I feel like when I ct it doesn't even penetrate the surface sometimes even when I soak it. To ct this year, I was thinking of setting out sprinklers for like a half hour then going out with a 4 gal. backpack sprayer and spraying the ct on the property. Its a really small lawn...Maybe 6000 sq. ft.

The property is NOT irrigated. I wish it was, but it isn't, it is bone dry.

Won't the black compost in the summer heat up too much on a dry lawn ?

I mean think thin grass, with a lot of dust, and few weeds. I guess a thin layer of compost will help cover the exposed ground from the sun along with holding in water.

[TMGL&L]

Btw, I spent a lot of time plucking out random little weeds from his property last year. He is picky about his weeds. I don't want to skip the cgm this year and then bring in a bunch of weed seeds in compost.

I guess I could go ahead and squirt the whole lawn sometime in the late spring or summer to knock out the weeds if they get to be a problem. I might kill some microbes but I will have a thick lawn...which is the best weed stopper there is.

[Kiril]

...So wait, so that is a Spring, Summer, and Fall top dressing and a Summer and Fall Aeration.

Well, if you want to seed now, use compost as a seed cover.
If you want to aerate now, then you should wait until early summer or fall.
How many times you apply compost depends on what you are trying to do with the soil and how quickly you want it to happen. Personally in my class 1 & 2 soils (w/ high clay), I would not apply more than 1/2" per year in a "standard" topdressing program. You need to define your goals based on a soil test before you really can settle on how best to proceed.

[TMGL&L]

Well, if you want to seed now, use compost as a seed cover.
If you want to aerate now, then you should wait until early summer or fall.
How many times you apply compost depends on what you are trying to do with the soil and how quickly you want it to happen. Personally in my class 1 & 2 soils (w/ high clay), I would not apply more than 1/2" per year in a "standard" topdressing program. You need to define your goals based on a soil test before you really can settle on how best to proceed.

btw, I am not trying to be argumentative here, I'm just trying to learn stuff from everybody's viewpoints.

Why is it that I can't do the whole shabang (aerate, seed, ct, compost, kelp) now and then do it again in the Fall?

I was thinking after I aerate I could maybe mow the lawn to break up the plugs a little and get lawn clippings in the ground too... Just an idea.

[Kiril]

No reason why you can't do it now, but personally I would skip the aeration until summer or fall.

[TMGL&L]

And I did a standard soil test by sending samples to penn state last year. I plan on doing another this year to see any progress I may have made.

[Pristine1]

btw, I am not trying to be argumentative here, I'm just trying to learn stuff from everybody's viewpoints.

Why is it that I can't do the whole shabang (aerate, seed, ct, compost, kelp) now and then do it again in the Fall?

I was thinking after I aerate I could maybe mow the lawn to break up the plugs a little and get lawn clippings in the ground too... Just an idea.

If you aerate and then over seed with a machine, the machine will do a nice job of breaking up the plugs. I would also consider an aeration and topdressing in spring and fall. I am doing this on a number of new properties, 1/8-1/4" compost each time. This will get things going asap. If you seed, I probably wouldn't do more than 1/8" of compost on top.

[Smallaxe]

Thin grass and nonporous clay soil... dare I say a sandy compost topdressing over the seed?
Is the clay maintaining a mineral clay look to it, i.e. red or gray coloration, or will those plugs look black?
One concern with summer aeration is a hot period in which the sun could really burn them holes and exposed roots. Especially w/out irrigation.

[TMGL&L]

Definetly seems to be totally impenetrable. I feel like I am spraying an impervious surface like a sidewalk sometimes when I spray the lawn. Your right, I really really should put some sand in the compost.

Now would the sand in the mixture get cycled downward into the soil over the season or will it just sit on top?... I guess even having a sandy layer on top wouldn't matter anyway, it would still improve drainage.

I'll post some pics maybe this weekend if I get a chance.

...and I am kind of opposed to summer aeration and topdressing anyway... I plan to do the whole shabang this spring (like the net 3 weeks) and/or in the Fall sometime.

[TMGL&L]

btw, I just got a shipment of this liquid kelp stuff...

oh man, Just thinking about the possibility of aerating, mowing, seeding, ct'ing, kelp spraying, compost/sand top dressing makes me wanna just drool all over my keyboard. :)

[bicmudpuppy]

Be VERY careful introducing sand into a non-sandy soil. The potential to "layer" the soil is real and one of the hardest problems I have ever seen to remedy. I have seen golf courses with problem layering just because the changed the source and supplier of the sand they were using for their top dressing program. You are then down to deciding if you can deep tine aerify mulitple times or if you have to bite the bullet and start over. Both options are extremely expensive.

[TMGL&L]

well I was thinking the aeration holes with a homogeneous mixture just 1/8" on top of the soil wont do tooo much harm. I know what you are saying though. Having a little bit of sand on the top can't cause alayering problem though could it? I mean really...there won't be hardly any sand in the mix at all. Another thing to take into consideration would be the fact that the ground pretty much repels water anyway so it can't get all that much worse than it already is.

[Kiril]

Be VERY careful introducing sand into a non-sandy soil. The potential to "layer" the soil is real and one of the hardest problems I have ever seen to remedy. I have seen golf courses with problem layering just because the changed the source and supplier of the sand they were using for their top dressing program. You are then down to deciding if you can deep tine aerify mulitple times or if you have to bite the bullet and start over. Both options are extremely expensive.

.......... Ditto

[bicmudpuppy]

well I was thinking the aeration holes with a homogeneous mixture just 1/8" on top of the soil wont do tooo much harm. I know what you are saying though. Having a little bit of sand on the top can't cause alayering problem though could it? I mean really...there won't be hardly any sand in the mix at all. Another thing to take into consideration would be the fact that the ground pretty much repels water anyway so it can't get all that much worse than it already is.

Food for thought............concrete is 1/3 sand and 1/3 gravel. Adobe is baked clay. Mix a little sand with the right stuff to make adobe.....................

[Smallaxe]

You can take a 5 gallon pail of sand and dump it on you target soil, rake it out to about a 3' circle and see what happens over the season.

Personal research projects will gain you knowledge.

When I add sand to my clay driveway I make a solid surface to drive on that doesn't allow such deep ruts when it is soaked.

Reminds me of the tale of the man and the demon. The demon couldn't figure out how the man's breath could WARM his hands, and COOL his soup. So the demon feared the man. :)

[roccon31]

straight compost is the only way for our wonderful PA soils.... sand is only going to make the soil worse, and adds NO nutrient value.

[bicmudpuppy]

You can take a 5 gallon pail of sand and dump it on you target soil, rake it out to about a 3' circle and see what happens over the season.

Personal research projects will gain you knowledge.

When I add sand to my clay driveway I make a solid surface to drive on that doesn't allow such deep ruts when it is soaked.

Reminds me of the tale of the man and the demon. The demon couldn't figure out how the man's breath could WARM his hands, and COOL his soup. So the demon feared the man. :)

Now, there is a thought.............where can I get some decent clay to add to my sand driveway to reduce the winter ruts?

[TMGL&L]

I forgot to get some pics when I was on the property this weekend I will try to post soon...

I'm gonna just plan to squirt any weed problems I get later in the year and just go for the whole shabang. I won't take the easy way out with this lawn by using the pre-m. I am gonna aerate, seed, ict, kelp, post w/ an 1/8", maybe seed again, maybe roll it, and maybe drool on the lawn to water it all in because just thinking about putting all that stuff on the grass sounds really friggin awesome.

...No sand

I'll run it by the customer first of course.

[Smallaxe]

... I won't take the easy way out with this lawn by using the pre-m. I am gonna aerate, seed, ict, kelp, post w/ an 1/8", maybe seed again, maybe roll it, and maybe drool on the lawn to water it all in because just thinking about putting all that stuff on the grass sounds really friggin awesome. ....

:laugh: ..."friggin awesome"... :laugh:

That's why I like to get out of the bed in the morning!! :)

[TMGL&L]

What is the average cost of compost that is favorable for top dressing?

[JDUtah]

What is the average cost of compost that is favorable for top dressing?

Class A compost tested etc. is about 17 bucks a yard out here... yard waste compost

[TMGL&L]

Class A compost tested etc. is about 17 bucks a yard out here... yard waste compost

Ok then I was right, 39 is a chit load. It the only place in the area that can get me good compost. I'm having it delivered from pretty far away so that is why the prices are so high.:dizzy:

Quick question... I have extra fert laying round from last year and I want to use it on this guy's lawn. Should I apply immediatly after I seed or not? And assuming I do should I use my 7-2-12 or my 16-2-0? Both products are from nutrients plus...

[NattyLawn]

Ok then I was right, 39 is a chit load. It the only place in the area that can get me good compost. I'm having it delivered from pretty far away so that is why the prices are so high.:dizzy:

Quick question... I have extra fert laying round from last year and I want to use it on this guy's lawn. Should I apply immediatly after I seed or not? And assuming I do should I use my 7-2-12 or my 16-2-0? Both products are from nutrients plus...

I've spent part of my winter testing local composts. There's some decent stuff out there at good prices if you know where to look.

16-2-3 is the correct analysis. If you must use starter fert, go with the 7-2-12.

[TMGL&L]

I've spent part of my winter testing local composts. There's some decent stuff out there at good prices if you know where to look.

16-2-3 is the correct analysis. If you must use starter fert, go with the 7-2-12.

Actually I purchased 16-2-0 analysis this year to lower costs associated with the potassium price jumps.

...Thanks I'll go with the 7-2-12 then.

[TMGL&L]

btw, I composted a few days ago and overseeded. Lets hope the homeowner keeps it watered.