Phase 4 Water Resstrictions

[FOL]

I know the benefits to going organic, but most people down here dont. They all are on a squirt and fert program and there brains are suffering from it.

My question is, Are there any facts or tests that have supporting evidence that show soil permeability before and after a organic program has been established. I know that it helps but I need to support that with evidence to my customers. I have been so busy with school I have not had time to do any research myself and would like some help on this one.

We just got put under a huge watering ban down here on the west coast of Florida and people are freaking out about there lawns. Read these restrictions guys, see what Im up against. It not going to be easy until the rainy season picks up....

http://www.swfwmd.state.fl.us/conservation/restrictions/phase4.html

[bicmudpuppy]

Sounds like a perfect market for annual color and color changes :)
The loop hole for new landscape plants to be watered daily for the first 15 days and 3x/week after that up to day 45 and 2x/week for the final 15 days. So, new annuals every other month should mean $$$ for the landscape company that can schedule irrigation and provide color plantings. Best part is your only going to be working for those that can afford it. Next, you get 30 days of decent water schedule for establishment of seed. It says for new or replacement lawns. Overseeding should qualify to be irrigated as replacement planting of turf and you get 30 days special watering rules. Sell broadcast seed followed by 'post 2-3 times until the restrictions expire in June. Again, I see $$$ for those willing to work the market that can afford the intense maintenance.

And don't miss the opportunity to upsell drip irrigation in ALL planting beds. They are still allowing drip 3x/week.

[FOL]

I understand the marketing side of what I am up against. Seeding Floratam? Can you even do that, I have always used plugs or sod, I know you can seed with bahia. I wish everyone down here had the stuff. It is the most drought resistant.

I need to find some supporting evidence, that will educate the customer and inform them what an organic program can do. I have midterms today and tomorrow. So my brain is tide with school currently. Does anyone out there have any documents or tests results that show conclusive/supporting evidence to an organic program and soil permeability? I would do the research myself, but I need to focus my time with school. I appreciate everyone's help with this.

[Kiril]

Ban annuals along with the turf.!

Organic matter retains more water and nutrients than sand.

[Smallaxe]

I understand the marketing side of what I am up against. Seeding Floratam? Can you even do that, I have always used plugs or sod, I know you can seed with bahia. I wish everyone down here had the stuff. It is the most drought resistant.

I need to find some supporting evidence, that will educate the customer and inform them what an organic program can do. I have midterms today and tomorrow. So my brain is tide with school currently. Does anyone out there have any documents or tests results that show conclusive/supporting evidence to an organic program and soil permeability? I would do the research myself, but I need to focus my time with school. I appreciate everyone's help with this.

There is no such thing as "...conclusive/supporting evience..." It is foolish to follow a 'research project' that was done by someone, somewhere. From a research document you can get a basic understanding about what works and what don't , but most importantly is the - WHY.
How will that WHY apply to my situation?

It sounds to me like you want to give them an instant fix and if anyone says they can, they are selling snake oil. A healthy organic soil will perform better during drought, but don't try to promise them that b4 June.

Here we have average soil and average rainfall and compost will make a difference that will last a long time. From my experience in Florida, I see a constant stream of compost just evaporating in that sand. You mentioned permeability. Does that mean you have clay?

[Kiril]

A healthy organic soil will perform better during drought, but don't try to promise them that b4 June.

Careful with the terminology .... there is a distinct difference between an organic soil and a mineral soil with organic matter.

[FOL]

I am not trying to say by any means that this is a quick fix. I know its not, maybe I did not word my statements properly. Wish I would have done better in grammar class.

What I am trying to do is educate myself and educate my potential new customers properly. I have been ask alot by potential new customers how these water restrictions are going to effect them and if going organic will help there lawns during a drought, and they ask me, "if I have any supporting evidence to back those here says, claims, whatever you want to call them" and I only have a idea of what to say, sometimes thats not enough. Like I said I know the benefits, but 99% of my new customers dont know anything about the organic approach, I just would like to know I am representing this industry correctly.

And yes the approach to why going organically will benefit, not all people can absorb, especially when they have had chemical guys feeding people and grass crap for years and there grass is still green. These people dont care, there grass is green. But they are potential new customers who are hard headed and will only change there ways unless they see facts on paper... It is up to people like us to then educate properly. And that is what I am trying to do, EDUCATE.

I am new to this industry so be easy on me. And yes I am way north of tg and do work with a little clay. Hernando county is filled with it.

[Smallaxe]

... And yes the approach to why going organically will benefit, not all people can absorb, especially when they have had chemical guys feeding people and grass crap for years and there grass is still green. These people dont care, there grass is green. But they are potential new customers who are hard headed and will only change there ways unless they see facts on paper... It is up to people like us to then educate properly. And that is what I am trying to do, EDUCATE.

I am new to this industry so be easy on me. And yes I am way north of tg and do work with a little clay. Hernando county is filled with it.

Well, with a little clay to work with, you have an opportunity to build better soil tilth than with just the sand that I saw. The problem with clay is that root penetration is inhibited and with lawns that have a lot of soluable N dumped on them the roots tend to grow at the surface. Therefore the advantage of clay is lost.
(This is true of Northern lawns - the concept could be different in Southern lawns)

Your main point to make with organics, could be the idea that proper soil structure combines soil with OM to allow soil to soak up the water and hold it. Good soil structure is like a big fluffy sponge that holds a lot of water, vs, the soil structure more akin to a waterlogged stick.

The reality is too create 'surface area' within the soil. Hopefully that type of visualization - or a better one - will make a bit of sense to them. Give you something to build on.

[FOL]

Thanks smallaxe I am off to school. I will follow up later.

[Kiril]

http://www.cias.wisc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/soilorgmtr.pdf

http://www.acresusa.com/toolbox/reprints/Jan09_Amaranthus_etal.pdf

http://extension.umd.edu/publications/pdfs/fs783.pdf

[bicmudpuppy]

Visuals usually sell better than reams of paper they have to read. If you can find a good healthy 4-6" sod plug, something 6-8" deep that has a good, rich, black soil look to it, and compare it to a core probed from their yard, you might be on to something. Explain the benefits of the richer soil (it looks darker and "better" because it has more SOM) compared to a light brown, sandy or clay soil. Now, if the yard in question looks nearly perfect, I would worry somewhat about pulling a core from the yard. You might find a soil profile that has flourished and will not be a good comparison for this purpose. A 1" soil probe that you can get a core sample from up to 12" deep is a great tool.

[Ruben Rocha]

I would suggest contacting your local extension service. Not sure where they are in Pasco county but you could start with.
http://www.prohort.net which is the hillsborough site or google ifas which is the state dept.
They are great people and have a lot of resources you can use.
They also offer ceu classes for licenses.

[Ruben Rocha]

BTW the local news say 350 people in the landscaping business will loose there job based on the new water restrictions. So I don't think there will be much opportunity to get additional business.
Since nobody will be able to water in new plants or grass.
And if you think that post is bad in the city of Tampa. No automatic watering is allowed after April 3. So people will be out in the dark with a hose to water the lawn.

[FOL]

Numerous homes in the area are either now on reclaimed water and the more established neighborhoods, homes have wells. Been to the Pinellas, Pasco, and Hernando extension offices. All great places.

Yes, most lawns are going to start dieing because there being pumped with chemicals and they are used to alot of water. I can not tell you how many chemical/pesticide treated signs I have seen, just recently pop up on peoples lawns the past 3 weeks. This is the reason these lawns need so much water is because of these methods. But with a different approach there is a possibility you can lower your water usage and keep your landscape looking decent. Most people down here over water there lawn anyway. So if people would actually start being educated properly about this, "which is what I am trying to do" some landscapes if maintained properly can survive.

You sir dont sound like an optimistic individual. The rain will come you need to do the rain dance. :dancing::dancing::dancing:

Thanks for your everyones help.

[ICT Bill]

Numerous homes in the area are either now on reclaimed water and the more established neighborhoods, homes have wells. Been to the Pinellas, Pasco, and Hernando extension offices. All great places.

Yes, most lawns are going to start dieing because there being pumped with chemicals and they are used to alot of water. I can not tell you how many chemical/pesticide treated signs I have seen, just recently pop up on peoples lawns the past 3 weeks. This is the reason these lawns need so much water is because of these methods. But with a different approach there is a possibility you can lower your water usage and keep your landscape looking decent. Most people down here over water there lawn anyway. So if people would actually start being educated properly about this, "which is what I am trying to do" some landscapes if maintained properly can survive.

You sir dont sound like an optimistic individual. The rain will come you need to do the rain dance. :dancing::dancing::dancing:

Thanks for your everyones help.

FOL and others in FL we have your backside, 2 products are being released in May for FL and the wet season ban so that you can continue to keep up the color and density that your customer expects and be compliant with the laws

FOL, you can sprig a lot of the varieties that you have down there, look up Pas Pallum, very low nutrient needs but finicky

[ICT Bill]

OH and BTW ..............

Kiril meant to say...... compost does a soil good

Start there it is actually very simple
Good finished compost and compost teas are the basis of a great land care plan

It really is not any more complicated than that

You can drill down to the enth degree but in the end it is about fertile soil

[Kiril]

Visuals usually sell better than reams of paper they have to read. If you can find a good healthy 4-6" sod plug, something 6-8" deep that has a good, rich, black soil look to it, and compare it to a core probed from their yard, you might be on to something. Explain the benefits of the richer soil (it looks darker and "better" because it has more SOM) compared to a light brown, sandy or clay soil. Now, if the yard in question looks nearly perfect, I would worry somewhat about pulling a core from the yard. You might find a soil profile that has flourished and will not be a good comparison for this purpose. A 1" soil probe that you can get a core sample from up to 12" deep is a great tool.

I may provide something like this over the next few weeks. I have some soil samples to pull on one of my sites that has areas that have received compost pretty much yearly (sprinkler irrigated lawn) and areas that have only had mulch (drip irrigated beds), and areas that have had a mix.

[Kiril]

You can drill down to the enth degree but in the end it is about fertile soil

Yes, and even if you are sitting on a Class 1 soil with great SOM content, you still need water. People need to start thinking about losing the "traditional" lawn and start looking at native alternatives.

[FOL]

I forgot to mention I really like that concept bcmud. Thanks for the input.

By the way it RAINED!!!!:clapping::clapping::clapping:

[bicmudpuppy]

I may provide something like this over the next few weeks. I have some soil samples to pull on one of my sites that has areas that have received compost pretty much yearly (sprinkler irrigated lawn) and areas that have only had mulch (drip irrigated beds), and areas that have had a mix.

Would love a picture or two of cores from those sites, compared to a clay profile managed by a spray and pray outfit for several years. We have talked in other posts about some of the "challenges" my artificial ecosystem presents. Many HO expect the "golf course" look from their lawn service. Yes, courses use synthetics, but the large majority of them are operated by ON SITE, educated professionals (I said most). We also do some intense maintenance items that the average HO just isn't willing to pay for. Things like multiple aerifications per season, repeated spoon feeding applications or fertigation, surface applied soil amendments like seaweed or kelp, etc. I know of courses with the kinds of budgets I dream of that top dress fairways 2-3 times per year. The guys that can budget that, are not top dressing with straight sand. It is a mix, and something along the lines of 15%+ peat or other organic matter to make up the mix. If the fairways are amended native soil, the mix is amended native soil. The top dressing would normally be heavier on the OM structure than the original construction mix. It did my heart good to see roots beyond what we could core on my greens this spring. Looks like I am 6-8"+ deep with roots to start the season. Last August, the bottom third of the 4" cores were void of roots.

[Kiril]

Would love a picture or two of cores from those sites, compared to a clay profile managed by a spray and pray outfit for several years.

I'll post some pics, and pull a core from the common area that is on the spray and pray program. Not really sure how often they spray and pray, but it should be a good comparison for soil under a "similar" irrigation regime.

I'd like to pull a core from the guys yard down the street that had a major grub problem last year. Watching him try to figure out what was wrong and watering the living hell out of his lawn was both amusing and a crying shame at the same time.

It did my heart good to see roots beyond what we could core on my greens this spring. Looks like I am 6-8"+ deep with roots to start the season. Last August, the bottom third of the 4" cores were void of roots.

Looks like you might hit that water reduction goal this year.