tea testing project...

[TMGL&L]

This post is mainly for Bill and anyone who regularly views the "final frontier" or w/e you guys call it.

Anyway, I want to look at some ict and other ct's I can get my hands on under a compound microscope. I want to see the product dormant and after it has been cultured for a bit...

I am assuming the microbes are dormant in the airtight environment. I was thinking of putting some maybe with a food source...maybe some pda in a petri dish for a few days...?:confused: Idk, maybe there is all kinds of mycos and rhizobacteria floating in there now in the container and I just need to get a drop and prep it n a slide... I'm assuming all I will see is some spores and dead and/or dormant microbes.

I also want to see the NPP in action as well.

Anybody have any info or knowledge they can share here on how I can do this?

That's for my own personal research...

Separately from that, I am doing a report on any plant pathogen and its cure...say maybe npp and some kind of mold... All I need is some credible and or scientific literature that backs up either NPP or another ipm kind of product (organic plz) that kills pathogenic fungi or bacteria.

Any input is greatly appreciated...thx.

[ICT Bill]

This post is mainly for Bill and anyone who regularly views the "final frontier" or w/e you guys call it.

Anyway, I want to look at some ict and other ct's I can get my hands on under a compound microscope. I want to see the product dormant and after it has been cultured for a bit...

I am assuming the microbes are dormant in the airtight environment. I was thinking of putting some maybe with a food source...maybe some pda in a petri dish for a few days...?:confused: Idk, maybe there is all kinds of mycos and rhizobacteria floating in there now in the container and I just need to get a drop and prep it n a slide... I'm assuming all I will see is some spores and dead and/or dormant microbes.

I also want to see the NPP in action as well.

Anybody have any info or knowledge they can share here on how I can do this?

That's for my own personal research...

Separately from that, I am doing a report on any plant pathogen and its cure...say maybe npp and some kind of mold... All I need is some credible and or scientific literature that backs up either NPP or another ipm kind of product (organic plz) that kills pathogenic fungi or bacteria.

Any input is greatly appreciated...thx.

We are in the middle of "how does NPP affect the soil food web" testing right now
under a microscope (with ICT) you will see a fair amount of bacteria and fungi alive and well but most are in spore or dormant form, when mixed, according to SFI testing the bacteria counts are around 40,000 and the fungi in the low 4's

[Tim Wilson]

Anybody have any info or knowledge they can share here on how I can do this?


I generally mix with some soil or compost, distilled water and a food source like molasses or fish (drop or two). Do a control with the subject and water and your food source and water. Have a comparitive like vermicompost or brewed compost tea or...

[NattyLawn]

I had a feeling Tim would chime in here. No need for a petri dish, just small samples Tim mentioned. If you want a good background on what you're looking at spend the $40 bucks for Tim's DVD.

[TMGL&L]

I generally mix with some soil or compost, distilled water and a food source like molasses or fish (drop or two). Do a control with the subject and water and your food source and water. Have a comparitive like vermicompost or brewed compost tea or...

Wouldn't it be good to brew the mixture for a few days and let it grow a bit to see some more action? Say maybe a distilled water mix being aerated with some molasses added?

[Tim Wilson]

Wouldn't it be good to brew the mixture for a few days and let it grow a bit to see some more action? Say maybe a distilled water mix being aerated with some molasses added?

I just put the aforementioned ingredients into pill bottles with lids, shake violently for 90 seconds (to extract), remove the lids (to allow air) and take samples periodically to observe (2 hrs, 4, 8, 12, 24, 36, 48...72, etc). Sometimes I have over 10 containers going at once to arrange controls so brewing would be quite difficult and impractical. [You can alternatively use Petri dishes if you wish by stirring instead of shaking]

[TMGL&L]

I just put the aforementioned ingredients into pill bottles with lids, shake violently for 90 seconds (to extract), remove the lids (to allow air) and take samples periodically to observe (2 hrs, 4, 8, 12, 24, 36, 48...72, etc). Sometimes I have over 10 containers going at once to arrange controls so brewing would be quite difficult and impractical. [You can alternatively use Petri dishes if you wish by stirring instead of shaking]

What do you mean to "extract"? And will there really be any differences after 2, 4, 8, and 12 hours?

I forgot my ict to experiment this with this week at school so I might have to get a hold of some compost here on campus.

I will fetch a pale of water and some black gold and see if I can see anything this week. I might brew a bucket or two just to try it for once (never did it before). I could try making super sugary mixes, super aerated mixes, thicker mixes, and so forth and see if there are any results.

...I'm getting tired of just reading and learning a whole bunch about it and never actually experiencing true brews or experimenting with any brews for that matter. I have no true goals here with this little "project". I just want to get my feet a little more wet.

[44DCNF]

I generally mix with some soil or compost, distilled water and a food source like molasses or fish (drop or two). Do a control with the subject and water and your food source and water. Have a comparitive like vermicompost or brewed compost tea or...

Would plain potato water from cooking, soaking, or rinsing, work as a food source for this testing, or during a tea brew?

[Tim Wilson]

The shaking extracts or breaks loose microbes from material plus mixes.

Most difference is noted at 24 hours, 48, 72.

Potato water: try it.

[TMGL&L]

...Just wondering, would a centrofuge do the same as shaking the sample? I have done that before during a lab to view nematodes in a soil sample.

[TMGL&L]

Just wondering... could I take, say a bottle of ict and aerate it and feed to grow the populations?.... Like to stretch my product so I can put more on my customers lawns? I guess that is a YES, but what are your opinions on that?

[JDUtah]

Just wondering... could I take, say a bottle of ict and aerate it and feed to grow the populations?.... Like to stretch my product so I can put more on my customers lawns? I guess that is a YES, but what are your opinions on that?

If I remember correctly ICT contains Mychoriza (I'm getting rusty, sp?)... microbes like those would not grow out, but others in the ICT would... Bill should chime in soon.

[TMGL&L]

If I remember correctly ICT contains Mychoriza (I'm getting rusty, sp?)... microbes like those would not grow out, but others in the ICT would... Bill should chime in soon.

why not? Could it be that moving water isnt favorable for growing hyphae?

[JDUtah]

why not? Could it be that moving water isnt favorable for growing hyphae?

The fungi only grow on roots and are then harvested and added to different soil inoculant products.

Hence you will get grow out of some, but not all the ICT... would that be ok? Sure... but IMO, why do that when you can get a 100 fold bio-diversity by using compost and/or good soil as your "starter"?

But my opinion is to throw out CT altogether (when it comes to turf fertility)... and use compost. That way you get the microbes AND the OM.

[ICT Bill]

Just wondering... could I take, say a bottle of ict and aerate it and feed to grow the populations?.... Like to stretch my product so I can put more on my customers lawns? I guess that is a YES, but what are your opinions on that?
I wrote this over on another thread, you are not seeing double

You cannot grow out the endo mycorrhizae you can grow out the ecto and the bacteria. The issue is dominace, which bug will come out to be the dominant species in any given time

Bacteria can multiply very quickly, doubling their numbers every 20 minutes, fungi take longer and can often be food for other microbes in the mix

at the end of 12 hours I would assume the bacteria would dominate, there is ancedotal evidence out there for the assumption, is that good or bad? who knows
at the end of 24 hours, who is in there?? I couldn't tell you

the point is, where in the cycle have you hit the sweet spot for your application ??? It is a question that every brewer has to ask at some point.

This is one of the reason that I prefer extraction, these are mostly dormant and spore form beneficials, they have already balanced the war while hanging out in the compost (hopefully). Our compost tea product has the same profile as extracted teas, we can just tell you what is in there. Maybe not as diverse as some like, but hey we never claimed it was perfect

Foliar disease suppression, brew up a batch
General landscape application, I prefer extracted

[TMGL&L]

I wrote this over on another thread, you are not seeing double

You cannot grow out the endo mycorrhizae you can grow out the ecto and the bacteria. The issue is dominace, which bug will come out to be the dominant species in any given time

Bacteria can multiply very quickly, doubling their numbers every 20 minutes, fungi take longer and can often be food for other microbes in the mix

at the end of 12 hours I would assume the bacteria would dominate, there is ancedotal evidence out there for the assumption, is that good or bad? who knows
at the end of 24 hours, who is in there?? I couldn't tell you

the point is, where in the cycle have you hit the sweet spot for your application ??? It is a question that every brewer has to ask at some point.

This is one of the reason that I prefer extraction, these are mostly dormant and spore form beneficials, they have already balanced the war while hanging out in the compost (hopefully). Our compost tea product has the same profile as extracted teas, we can just tell you what is in there. Maybe not as diverse as some like, but hey we never claimed it was perfect

Foliar disease suppression, brew up a batch
General landscape application, I prefer extracted

I had a professor once that kind of damned compost teas all together because of this fear he had in causing imbalances in the ecosystem that we have not yet understood yet. He only talked about it for like a minute but I'll never forget it because it got me thinking....This stuff ("organic" gardening, biological innoculents in general) is still pretty much new and very much these fields are not well understood. What if we, the ones in the organic forum striving for global restoration and sustainable, ecologocal land care, are the ones polluting the world with imbalances of non-native and invasive biology?

....spooky :eek::dizzy:

I'll keep using compost teas. :)

[TMGL&L]

Thats a good point made about the endos and ectos that I haven't really thought about.

[ICT Bill]

I had a professor once that kind of damned compost teas all together because of this fear he had in causing imbalances in the ecosystem that we have not yet understood yet. He only talked about it for like a minute but I'll never forget it because it got me thinking....This stuff ("organic" gardening, biological innoculents in general) is still pretty much new and very much these fields are not well understood. What if we, the ones in the organic forum striving for global restoration and sustainable, ecologocal land care, are the ones polluting the world with imbalances of non-native and invasive biology?

....spooky :eek::dizzy:

I'll keep using compost teas. :)

The Darwinian theory works very well in these environments

Nature despises a void, fungicides promote fungal disease. The pathogens are the ones that come back first, they are the opportunists that are able to colonize quickly

[NattyLawn]

I wrote this over on another thread, you are not seeing double

You cannot grow out the endo mycorrhizae you can grow out the ecto and the bacteria. The issue is dominace, which bug will come out to be the dominant species in any given time

Bacteria can multiply very quickly, doubling their numbers every 20 minutes, fungi take longer and can often be food for other microbes in the mix

at the end of 12 hours I would assume the bacteria would dominate, there is ancedotal evidence out there for the assumption, is that good or bad? who knows
at the end of 24 hours, who is in there?? I couldn't tell you

the point is, where in the cycle have you hit the sweet spot for your application ??? It is a question that every brewer has to ask at some point.

This is one of the reason that I prefer extraction, these are mostly dormant and spore form beneficials, they have already balanced the war while hanging out in the compost (hopefully). Our compost tea product has the same profile as extracted teas, we can just tell you what is in there. Maybe not as diverse as some like, but hey we never claimed it was perfect

Foliar disease suppression, brew up a batch
General landscape application, I prefer extracted

In a roundabout way, your post seems to push towards people buying and learning how to use a microscope.

I'm on the diverse AACT team. I don't really believe in bacterial vs. fungal. Apply it and let the soil sort it out. Extraction is very interesting though.

[ICT Bill]

In a roundabout way, your post seems to push towards people buying and learning how to use a microscope.

I'm on the diverse AACT team. I don't really believe in bacterial vs. fungal. Apply it and let the soil sort it out. Extraction is very interesting though.

Good for you and the microscope, I agree. I would love to see a microscope mounted on every truck

It is about succession in the soil, disturbed soils from construction, fire, flood, long term synthetic use have little to no microbial diversity. It starts with the bacterial colonies and moves from there

Turf likes a 1:1 ratio bacterial to fungal
Disturbed soils are .001 bacterial, no fungi
old growth forests are 100 to 1 fungal dominant, often 1000 to 1

What does corn like, rice??, how about sorghum? Blueberries? artichokes?

We can actually manipulate the soils by controling the fungi to bacteria ratio

Disturbed soils, get the bacteria colonies going first
periennials, shrubs and trees, use fungal foods and fungal dominant CT

step out of the Dr E box, there is a whole wide world out there
Actually Dr E has been out of the box for some time

[NattyLawn]

Good for you and the microscope, I agree. I would love to see a microscope mounted on every truck

It is about succession in the soil, disturbed soils from construction, fire, flood, long term synthetic use have little to no microbial diversity. It starts with the bacterial colonies and moves from there

Turf likes a 1:1 ratio bacterial to fungal
Disturbed soils are .001 bacterial, no fungi
old growth forests are 100 to 1 fungal dominant, often 1000 to 1

What does corn like, rice??, how about sorghum? Blueberries? artichokes?

We can actually manipulate the soils by controling the fungi to bacteria ratio

Disturbed soils, get the bacteria colonies going first
periennials, shrubs and trees, use fungal foods and fungal dominant CT

step out of the Dr E box, there is a whole wide world out there
Actually Dr E has been out of the box for some time

Ugghh. Thanks Bill. Even in bacterial or fungal dominated soils, don't you still need the other guys for proper nutrient cycling? No offense, but our drench of tea or extract isn't going to make a huge dent in the overall soil structure, especially at 2 gallons per k with your product. The soil will sort itself out regardless.

While I am grateful for what Dr. Ingham has done, I am not stuck inside her box, so to speak and never have been. Wasn't it you flaunting your relationship with her when you first got on here? And now you step outside the box with your diverse ICT?

My quote of your original post had no bad intent or ill will. I apologize for pushing people to educate themselves and buy a scope. Maybe you're worried about what they might see if they actually learn how to use it and see what's under there. Chock full of myco!

Peace out.....Don't mess with the sponsors.

[NattyLawn]

Nevermind. I just figured it out. ICT 1-2-3 is bacterial based and ICT Tree is probably fungal based, or just contains fungal foods. Should have thought about the product angle slant.

[ICT Bill]

Ugghh. Thanks Bill. Even in bacterial or fungal dominated soils, don't you still need the other guys for proper nutrient cycling? No offense, but our drench of tea or extract isn't going to make a huge dent in the overall soil structure, especially at 2 gallons per k with your product. The soil will sort itself out regardless.

While I am grateful for what Dr. Ingham has done, I am not stuck inside her box, so to speak and never have been. Wasn't it you flaunting your relationship with her when you first got on here? And now you step outside the box with your diverse ICT?

My quote of your original post had no bad intent or ill will. I apologize for pushing people to educate themselves and buy a scope. Maybe you're worried about what they might see if they actually learn how to use it and see what's under there. Chock full of myco!

Peace out.....Don't mess with the sponsors.

No worries MON
My "out of the box" statement did not come off right
Mess with me all you like

we do test with SFI on every batch and i do respect Dr. E quite a bit. Like I said "a chicken in every pot" I meant "a scope in every truck"

education is the key, I just haven't figured out how to get it done on a national scale

[Tim Wilson]

Turf likes a 1:1 ratio bacterial to fungal

By weight or volume? What about protozoa? What is your source?

Disturbed soils are .001 bacterial, no fungi

What is your unit of measure? percentage? Does not sound likely, as there are bacteria everywhere; good & bad.

old growth forests are 100 to 1 fungal dominant, often 1000 to 1


Sources?

[Kiril]

This stuff ("organic" gardening, biological innoculents in general) is still pretty much new

The only thing that is new is our attempt to manipulate nature ..... in which case we are infinitely ignorant.

[JDUtah]

I had a professor once that kind of damned compost teas all together because of this fear he had in causing imbalances in the ecosystem that we have not yet understood yet... What if we, the ones in the organic forum striving for global restoration and sustainable, ecologocal land care, are the ones polluting the world with imbalances of non-native and invasive biology?

I have read and posted various examples where experts discourage the use of CT's.

Personally I agree. We have NO way of testing ALL of the possible negative effects of CT. What happens when you buy a vermicompost from Alaska that is infected with Amphibian Chytrid Fungi spores? You brew your CT (including these deadly fungal spores) and apply... Well thanks you 'responsible little landscape manager'... you just contributed to the spread of a disease that has been called 'worse than the bubonic plague'.

Click on part 2 (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/frogs-the-thin-green-line/video-full-episode/4882/)

"It has also been shown that [this deadly fungi] can survive and grow in moist soil and on bird feathers, suggesting that Bd may also be spread in the environment by birds and transportation of soils." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batrachochytrium_dendrobatidis)

No one is saying don't use CT at all. I am simply suggesting that IF you need to apply a CT please use LOCAL starters for your brew, and be responsible about it. Do not apply it unless you need to.

IMO compost tea MINIMALLY affects soil fertility, even over extended periods of time. So please do not apply it for that. IMHO CT's should only be used to help combat disease outbreaks... but only when brewed/used appropriately.

Rotten tomatoes welcome. I have more to learn/discuss anyway.

[Kiril]

IMHO CT's should only be used to help combat disease outbreaks... but only when brewed/used appropriately.

And how did you come to that conclusion given the dismal lack of consistent disease control using CT?

Furthermore ... the very reasons you have listed above for not using CT are more or less required for successful disease control IMO (i.e. isolation and promotion of specific disease inhibiting organisms).

[ICT Bill]

By weight or volume? What about protozoa? What is your source?
What is your unit of measure? percentage? Does not sound likely, as there are bacteria everywhere; good & bad.

Sources?

here are some notes from Jeff http://www.alaskahumus.com/JeffsLectureNotes.htm

Dr.e's books and speeches often reference the succession chart

and you can find out all about it on the USDA site
http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/publications/publications.html

or here
http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/concepts/soil_biology/biology.html

We do not have protozoa, at least not added intentionally, in our mix. as the bacterial colonies grow they come along with them

[TMGL&L]

The only thing that is new is our attempt to manipulate nature ..... in which case we are infinitely ignorant.

I understand that farmers, gardeners, horticulturists of all kinds have been using composts and manures in conjunction with other such sustainable practices forever. Its our understanding of why these work scientifically and how we can replicate it not only on large scales but economically and more efficiently as commercial enterprises serving customers all over.

"Organic" has just been bursting into the mainstream general public for the last couple of years and becoming more and more prevalent.

It seems like everyday that we are learning that common practices that are sustainable turn out to be bad for example, pruning seals are now understood to be old practice not bmp. Also, I just learned in school today about thinning certain trees and shrubs by tearing... yes tearing, rather than pruning, growth off from the tree...well suckering growth that is.

...That's kind of what I meant

btw... I have heard of the immensly fungally dominant populations in forested (boreal) ecosystems as well... I'm not sure where though.

I've also heard (I think from Lowenfels book ... I think) of people trying to steer growth on their properties with teas and amendments that are applied that are ideal for the target crop... say turf (which I thought was slightly bacterially dominant) and not ideal for non desired plants...say dandies. I guess this done through gradual pH changes and so forth done so by fungi and bacteria populations.

...Those are my thoughts...Correct me where I'm wrong.

[JDUtah]

And how did you come to that conclusion given the dismal lack of consistent disease control using CT?

Furthermore ... the very reasons you have listed above for not using CT are more or less required for successful disease control IMO (i.e. isolation and promotion of specific disease inhibiting organisms).

Good point about disease control using CT.

The other point is understandable as well but IMO should only be done AFTER proper cultural adjustments have been made to the landscape AND after specific testing has been performed on the disease inhibiting organisms... the current CT buzz relies more on spray and pray techniques than sound science.

[Kiril]

Microbial manipulation should be left to Ag .... it really has no place in landscapes.

[Kiril]

Good point about disease control using CT.

The other point is understandable as well but IMO should only be done AFTER proper cultural adjustments have been made to the landscape AND after specific testing has been performed on the disease inhibiting organisms... the current CT buzz relies more on spray and pray techniques than sound science.

When it comes to biological systems, there is no such thing as "sound science", as you put it. We can predict what may or may not occur based on observation and study, but IMO we may never be able to state with any certainty all the possible outcomes of biological disease control. If I learned anything in my studies, I learned that nature is inherently chaotic.

[JDUtah]

When it comes to biological systems, there is no such thing as "sound science", as you put it. We can predict what may or may not occur based on observation and study, but IMO we may never be able to state with any certainty all the possible outcomes of biological disease control. If I learned anything in my studies, I learned that nature is inherently chaotic.

Are you agreeing that cultural adjustments should be made first; then if the disease persists other measure taken?

Are you saying that is a bad way to combat disease?

Are you being indifferent and just trolling?

[ICT Bill]

When it comes to biological systems, there is no such thing as "sound science", as you put it. We can predict what may or may not occur based on observation and study, but IMO we may never be able to state with any certainty all the possible outcomes of biological disease control. If I learned anything in my studies, I learned that nature is inherently chaotic.

Very true, but often you can head in the right direction with certain practices. Will you have an absolute known outcome? NO

If you want sound science google "plant growth promoting rhizobacteria" some time, you will be several months reading peer review documentation

But you can use certain foods to select for certain species, you can also use certain triggers to produce motabolites or enzymes in common soil microorganisms

I can add free ranging nitrogen fixers to the soil and begin to nurture the environment to get good colonization, will they be everywhere? who knows without testing? will the colonies last for years? again testing

Just like when brewing CT you are selecting for aerobic microorganisms by aerating the water and keeping certain DO levels, in this case we are HEADING in the right direction

you are manipulating the soil/microbes just by watering it

[Tim Wilson]

Bill,

Thank you for replying.

I have read through Jeff's notes now and before and see nothing specific to the questions I posed. The only other specific link was to the 'biology primer'. The USDA link was non-specific. This is akin to me referring someone to a library to support a statement.

Normally when making assertions with specific data such as your's a citation is provided or personal data or a caveat stating that it is information recalled from an unremembered source. This way people are able to evaluate the validity of the statement.

My question about protozoa was not specific to your product but to turf requirements, however your answer is typical for proponents of products or brewers who have not considered this important animal that is the workhorse of the microbial nutrient cycling consortia. (as observed and recorded by myself, and cited by articles {Bonkowski, Clareholm} following write up 'Organic growing...Microbial Perspective on my webpage)

[Kiril]

Are you agreeing that cultural adjustments should be made first; then if the disease persists other measure taken?

Use methods that promote overall plant health and growth that is applicable for the environment it exists in.

Are you saying that is a bad way to combat disease?

In some cases, absolutely ..... witness history.

[Kiril]

you are manipulating the soil/microbes just by watering it

Not a fair comparison if one is talking about exotic organism introduction.

[JDUtah]

Use methods that promote overall plant health and growth that is applicable for the environment it exists in.

In some cases, absolutely ..... witness history.

Thanks for the clarifying response. :waving:

[TMGL&L]

I have read and posted various examples where experts discourage the use of CT's.

Personally I agree. We have NO way of testing ALL of the possible negative effects of CT. What happens when you buy a vermicompost from Alaska that is infected with Amphibian Chytrid Fungi spores? You brew your CT (including these deadly fungal spores) and apply... Well thanks you 'responsible little landscape manager'... you just contributed to the spread of a disease that has been called 'worse than the bubonic plague'.



:laugh: ...and I'll let you know if I observe any" blinky" fish, bubonic plagues, or hemaphrodite frogs in the local waters. Until then I will continue to buy from reputable dealers.

[ICT Bill]

Bill,

Thank you for replying.

I have read through Jeff's notes now and before and see nothing specific to the questions I posed. The only other specific link was to the 'biology primer'. The USDA link was non-specific. This is akin to me referring someone to a library to support a statement.

Normally when making assertions with specific data such as your's a citation is provided or personal data or a caveat stating that it is information recalled from an unremembered source. This way people are able to evaluate the validity of the statement.

My question about protozoa was not specific to your product but to turf requirements, however your answer is typical for proponents of products or brewers who have not considered this important animal that is the workhorse of the microbial nutrient cycling consortia. (as observed and recorded by myself, and cited by articles {Bonkowski, Clareholm} following write up 'Organic growing...Microbial Perspective on my webpage)

No I agree with you almost completely, protozoa are the nutrient miners and release all kinds of nutrients to the plants. The point is that they are basically bacterial eaters, if the colonies of bacteria are not there you will not have good numbers of protozoa

Bacteria are the beginning blocks that the house is made from

I have posted the succession chart before I'll go find it and post again

[ICT Bill]

Not a fair comparison if one is talking about exotic organism introduction.

I was just talking about common soil microorganisms, we have no triple XXX rated microbes and they are fully clothed :laugh:

[JDUtah]

:laugh: ...and I'll let you know if I observe any" blinky" fish, bubonic plagues, or hemaphrodite frogs in the local waters. Until then I will continue to buy from reputable dealers.

lol. :weightlifter:

So tell me why you apply the CT's you purchase from reputable dealers?

[TMGL&L]

lol. :weightlifter:

So tell me why you apply the CT's you purchase from reputable dealers?

I spray compost teas to help spread disease, ignorance, cause destruction, spread chaos, to try to destroy all my properties, ruin the world, to make people angry, to kill stupid frogs, to make everyone in my business look bad, because I'm dumb, because I don't care about the health of myself or my customers, I hate the environment, just because I have nothing better to do, etc...

Of course I try to improve soil fertility, micro populations, nitrogen cycling, fight disease, promote and support ct's, and the companies that research and develop products that aim to create earth friendly products and services, to support my own business, and several other reasons I may be leaving out here b/c I cant think of them or care not to add...


... C'mon man cut me some slack here... You came into my thread and called me a responsible little landscape manager?..wtf. isn't that is a bit condescending? As much as it may be true that I'm small, I'm here to learn and maybe debate a little bit, never to be talked down upon or start fights.

[TMGL&L]

Someday I hope to be able to collect my own native waste products and maybe even make my own brews but obviously I'm not there yet that's why I buy indirectly from people smarter than me and that have comparative advantages in the brewing field. I trust when I use say Bill's product lines for example, that I wont be causing direct obvious damage to anything such as disease or pollution.

[Tim Wilson]

Kiril,

I agree with much of what you have said. Nature is chaotic and beautifully so.

I believe that one reason for the dearth of good studies supporting disease control with CT is the lack of evaluation microscopically for the type of organism desired to effect the pathogen. This is not rocket science, just a matter of looking down the microscope tube. I have seen erwinia beaten back with a primarily bacterial/archaeal CT and likewise a certain strain of powdery mildew (PM). There are proponents stating that a fungal CT is a good foliar disease control amendment based on out-populating the pathogen but I am dubious that compost fungi live happily on leaf surfaces. There is probably validity in activating Trichoderma spores in a CT and applying this foliarly to beat a fungal pathogen. I think the foliar effects of CT applications may be overblown and the effects of the CT which reaches the soil underestimated when considering disease control. I've heard some 'grapevine' talk of great successes with PM control using CT on grapes in California. Have you heard anything of this?

Your point that 'microbial manipulation' should be left to Ag and not applied to landscape care can be interpreted broadly, perhaps too broadly. I gather that you are referring to the specific liquid bottled microbes and in many respects I agree with you unless the one applying it knows well what they are doing. On the other hand, I know that you advocate applying compost/vermicompost and this is also microbial manipulation in similar fashion to the use of properly constructed CT. I fully agree with using compost and other sources of organic matter over that of CT. I'm pretty sure we will agree that compost has its effect via the microbial nutrient cycle (among other things) The CT which I use and advocate is simply an extension of that same compost and has its place in;
1/ transitions from chemical to natural growing techniques, as it usually helps accelerate the healthy microbial populations in the soil (and {apparently} breaks down toxins rapidly especially if degrader fungi {imperfecti} and PNSB are included; see fungi.com and PNSB use on chemical spills)
2/ a situation where one has limited compost to cover a given area. One can initiate positive effect by extracting and multiplying the microbial consortia contained within the compost. In this case other foods like fish hydrolysate must be applied before and/or after. This applies to our stuation where we have around 40 yards of vermicompost seasonally to apply to 4 acres of garden area.
3/ a situation where it is combined with compost application to accelerate the microbial activity of the compost. Usually indicated for poor soils.

As I've stated before CT is only a tool in a system of an approximation of natural growing and not a be all end all. Organics itself is not a phrase to cover the types of amendments and fertilizers used but is a system of close to natural growing techniques.


JD. Is there evidence that your frog killer fungi grows in vermicompost or was this just thrown out there?

[Tim Wilson]

Bill,

No need to post the chart. I'm sure you know it is rudimentary to me. I was seeking support for the numbers you had posted but no big deal.

Marianne Clarlholm has published some interesting evaluations of old forest soil populations indicating wide swings in population diversity ratios determined by contemporaneous circumstances.

[JDUtah]

My bad man... that 'little' comment wasn't directed specifically at you. I'm 'tiny' this season, re-launching a company this year.

Bill's product grows out specific microbes, then combines them.. I am not sure the tolerances he has on it, but it does seem to be a more safe approach than other mass distributed CT's or CT starters.

Again though, I just don't see how CT's really do improve soil fertility, nutrient cycling, or microbe populations...

As far as fertility... we are not fusing subatomic particles to create nutrients out of energy here... you only add what you add.. and CT's really do not add that many nutrients.

As far as nutrient cycling... the cycle is already there. Microbes are already there.. native ones.. if there is a problem in a landscape with the cycle.. 99.5% of the time IMO it isn't the microbes (or lack thereof) fault.

And as far as microbe populations... I look at it like this... when trying to encourage an endangered species population to rebound, we do not just go and release huge populations of that species. Instead we ensure that species has a habitat to live in. Like building artificial nests for the bald eagle. Or encouraging and protecting areas they nest/breed in naturally... Once we ensure they have adequate food and housing the populations generally increase on their own.

What does that have to do with soil microbes? It really doesn't matter how many microbes you introduce to a soil that cannot support microbe life. The new ones will die off just like the native ones did. The trick is to identify why the indigenous species died off... Drought? High bulk density? Anaerobic conditions? Inadequate food source (SOM)? Bad Ph level? Toxin? Elevated salt levels? Nutrient imbalance? etc?

IMO instead of regularly adding microbes that may or may not survive it is more effective to think 'big picture' and fix the root problem (if there even is one). Only after you have done that an inoculation MAY be appropriate.. but IMO, more often than not, you should just let the indigenous microbes enjoy the more hospitable environment.

Usually the only soil without microbes is found in a nursery... the soil that has been sterilized... and it gets naturally inoculated pretty quickly. Microbes have been documented to travel via wind across that Atlantic Ocean... I really don't think we need to worry about spreading them. What we can do is ensure they have a favorable place to populate...

[Tim Wilson]

JD; Time to get your fingers dirty. nutrients? pH?


If the indigenous soil microbes are healthy no need to do anything at all.

[JDUtah]

JD. Is there evidence that your frog killer fungi grows in vermicompost or was this just thrown out there?

I threw it out there... all it takes though is one compost pile watering event with contaminated water.. and you have the spores... It is documented to reproduce in water (the environment used to brew a CT)... wikki claims it is also documented to reproduce in moist soil.

Tim,

I hope you understand I respect your work. I do feel CT inoculations can be appropriate at times. I am simply stressing that...
1) it is done preferably with CT started from local sources or adequately controlled (like I assume Bill's 123 is)
2) the chemical mindset of spray and pray should not carry over. CT's have their place.. but IMO it is not as a spray and pray fertilizer. It is to reintroduce microbes into an environment that has been adjusted and can now support high microbe populations. Preferably re-inoculated from a local starter source... refer back to #1

[JDUtah]

JD; Time to get your fingers dirty. nutrients? pH?

Tim,

Nutrients? Did you read my nitrogen availability thread?

pH? Please tell me how introducing 1 million humans into Antarctica without the resources they need to survive will cause the temperature in the arctic to significantly increase to a hospitable level? (this analogy compares temperature to pH)

It appears I didn't post my diplomacy message soon enough...

If the indigenous soil microbes are healthy no need to do anything at all.

I agree! :)

TMGL&L Sorry to hijack. I can back out of this discussion if you want.

[TMGL&L]

Tim,

Nutrients? Did you read my nitrogen availability thread?

pH? Please tell me how introducing 1 million humans into Antarctica without the resources they need to survive will cause the temperature in the arctic to significantly increase to a hospitable level? (this analogy compares temperature to pH)

It appears I didn't post my diplomacy message soon enough...



I agree! :)

TMGL&L Sorry to hijack. I can back out of this discussion if you want.

I don't see any big probs, There is decent debate going on here.

[JDUtah]

Good to hear TMGL&L

BTW, I make these same arguments with compost or any other amendment. Start local.

If you have to bring something in, please make sure the company you purchase from is using safe practices... composting indoors (I know Barry does this... is all your stuff done indoors?), using safe water supplies, etc. But even then, you can't guarantee airborne spores have not contaminated the product.

Still though, imported controlled product is better than imported non-controlled product.

Local product is the best way to go... less environmental cost AND less potential to introduce non-native species.

[Tim Wilson]

Manipulating soil pH is a futile endeavour. It just keeps the lime people in business. In arable soil, as far as I know the microbial population ratios determine pH. Isn't pH manipulation more akin to your Antartic analogy.

That soil contains measurable nutrient levels predictable to be plant available is 1950s science. If you feed plants soluble NPK, may as well just have pebbles or clay pellets to support the roots and forget about soil, OM, compost, etc.

Compost made indoors. Good lord! We don't want any worms or rollie pollies or bugs gettin in there do we? Better decontaminate your supper before you eat.

Do you think I'm all and only about compost tea when you roll out this stuff about respecting my work?

[JDUtah]

Do you think I'm all and only about compost tea when you roll out this stuff about respecting my work?

Nope... just any time I publicly question it's placement in an organic program you seem to get very excited and post at an irregular rate. Also, we have had enough run-ins for me to figure out you are sensitive about the subject.

Tree's worms are inside, no? How about Barry's compost? Are you saying they are not good sources of OM?

Shall we leave it at this? Stay local... you can use the microbulator and stay local...

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

Nope... just any time I publicly question it's placement in an organic program you seem to get very excited and post at an irregular rate.

i had to chime in, i see it's the same all same all as usual here, can cut the BS with a knife at time's with some of the product talk going on..
JD, your disrespectful tone to Tim is getting old,
irregular rate? look who talking...how do you have time to post so much when starting a biz? i am so busy this year iv been able to bring on a guy full time and another part time,get out there and knock on some doors, after noons are great for flyering, you know?

to the guy who wants to grow out bottled product, why? what for? what do you think you are going to see? some bacteria growing perhaps after a few hours?? . you can take a glass of water, put a pinch a sugar in it, let it stand a couple of days and guess what?? bacteria and most likely some kind of yeast spore growing.
micro biology ,yeah their every where.

save you money and just keep it simple....all the biology you will ever need is in your back yard,forest a bag of cast or local post and in the air around you, do you want to grow out a broad diversity of active and dormant beneficial soil biology? then go to the source and grab a hand full.


Ive done alot of microscope testing and ive found even the most disturbed soils have many different types of biology present as long as plants are growing there, just feed and if you want to inoculate, do it with REAL tea's. top dressing is key as well,don't need alot either, the over priced bottled stuff is a waste of time.

good luck.

[Smallaxe]

I remember having this discussion with the proponents of CT myself, about a year ago or more.
One point that should be common to everyone is that microbes of all kinds are basically everywhere. Mostly, they exist as spores. They travel by wind, water, animals, humans, etc. Then/If they find proper environment, they germinate and multiply until their environment becomes less hospitable; in which case they, sporoform, once more and the transportation forces continue to move them about.

This is quite a basic generalization about how life works and I am not going to say that the microbes that feed off of the chemical rich, hot water vents in the bottom of the ocean, exist in some form on dry land; however I would not be surprised to find out that they do.

Providing the 'right habitat' and 'food supply' for the microbes that you want to promote -- will give you the 'indigenous' bacteria populations you want. CT provides active feeders that will eat up whatever is there and cycle it back to the the living plants, either directly or through its dead bodies.

I prefer compost because it will obviously last longer that 20,000 microbes per drop of water, but I can see how CT would dissovle the thatch layer more quickly. :)

Also I can see how introducing a high population of beneficials can help establish a sound population of beneficials, in case there is a competing bacteria that is also thriving in this hospitable habitat and continues to out populate the ones we would rather see.

Its analogous to - more people from Milwaukee finding our habitat pleasant, and therefore populate this area, moreso than the folks we would rather see. :)

[Kiril]

I believe that one reason for the dearth of good studies supporting disease control with CT is the lack of evaluation microscopically for the type of organism desired to effect the pathogen.

Yes, most definitely true. The other problem is environmental factors that affect the efficacy of any application. What works out in the lab may not be the case right outside your door, and most certainly may not work halfway around the world.

I've heard some 'grapevine' talk of great successes with PM control using CT on grapes in California. Have you heard anything of this?

Rumors/heresay, nothing more. I think one of the biggest problems with any large scale use of CT for foliar disease control is the application frequency needed to maintain control is not economically feasible, or at least that was the last I heard on the matter.

Your point that 'microbial manipulation' should be left to Ag and not applied to landscape care can be interpreted broadly, perhaps too broadly. I gather that you are referring to the specific liquid bottled microbes and in many respects I agree with you unless the one applying it knows well what they are doing.

Where I was going with that is there simply is no need for it in the landscape, at least in regard to your typical soil and soil drench. Foliar disease control is another matter altogether and can mostly be dealt with by proper landscape design and management.

On the other hand, I know that you advocate applying compost/vermicompost and this is also microbial manipulation in similar fashion to the use of properly constructed CT. I fully agree with using compost and other sources of organic matter over that of CT. I'm pretty sure we will agree that compost has its effect via the microbial nutrient cycle (among other things) The CT which I use and advocate is simply an extension of that same compost and has its place in;
1/ transitions from chemical to natural growing techniques, as it usually helps accelerate the healthy microbial populations in the soil (and {apparently} breaks down toxins rapidly especially if degrader fungi {imperfecti} and PNSB are included; see fungi.com and PNSB use on chemical spills)
2/ a situation where one has limited compost to cover a given area. One can initiate positive effect by extracting and multiplying the microbial consortia contained within the compost. In this case other foods like fish hydrolysate must be applied before and/or after. This applies to our stuation where we have around 40 yards of vermicompost seasonally to apply to 4 acres of garden area.
3/ a situation where it is combined with compost application to accelerate the microbial activity of the compost. Usually indicated for poor soils.

I can more or less agree with this if your compost is locally produced and the CT comes from that compost. As far as manipulating the microbes, it is difficult not to do that in a maintained landscape given it is not likely to be a closed system. Compost is simply used to replace what has been removed and to provide for the landscape plant needs. The further you move away from a native landscape, the more compost/OM/soil manipulation you will need.

As I've stated before CT is only a tool in a system of an approximation of natural growing and not a be all end all. Organics itself is not a phrase to cover the types of amendments and fertilizers used but is a system of close to natural growing techniques.

I agree in part, and I also believe it initially can be likened to a chem fert. application. The big jump in microbial activity and subsequent nutrient release due to an application of CT could be argued as a very "unnatural" process.

In the end, I agree with you in principle, CT certainly does have its uses and can be a very useful tool.

[TMGL&L]

to the guy who wants to grow out bottled product, why? what for? what do you think you are going to see? some bacteria growing perhaps after a few hours?? . you can take a glass of water, put a pinch a sugar in it, let it stand a couple of days and guess what?? bacteria and most likely some kind of yeast spore growing.
micro biology ,yeah their every where.

save you money and just keep it simple....all the biology you will ever need is in your back yard,forest a bag of cast or local post and in the air around you, do you want to grow out a broad diversity of active and dormant beneficial soil biology? then go to the source and grab a hand full.


Ive done alot of microscope testing and ive found even the most disturbed soils have many different types of biology present as long as plants are growing there, just feed and if you want to inoculate, do it with REAL tea's. top dressing is key as well,don't need alot either, the over priced bottled stuff is a waste of time.

good luck.

Well now I've been exposed to some other viewpoints on commercial compost teas and teas in general. I have been looking for opposing arguments to using ct since I discovered it a few years ago.

...As for all the arguments and so forth, I specifically started this thread simply because I want to view and try to identify the biology in the standardized commercial product.

It just so happens that I have been studying different types of fungi spores and structures and I would like to see if I could identify the species and/or structures found floating around in there.....Not a big deal alright I'm a hort geek... there I said it! .... I'm nosy and curious.

I have to spend hours in labs all day, I figure if I spend tons of time looking at apple scab, powdery mildew, and other pathogens all day I might as well familiarize myself with some of the biology in the ground on my properties....and if the commercial tea is non native and somehow completely different than my ground biology than maybe I'll learn what non native or fake tea looks like.... I have time, free use of lab and equipment, and I have the materials (post, bottled tea, and ability to make my own tea).

As for the question about "growing out", its part hypothetical. I'm just trying to plan my time more efficiently and maybe get some ideas for what to do to keep it fresh or observe how my manipulations will both macroscopically and microscopically effect the brew.

I wish I hadn't left my tea product at home this past weekend or I would have looked at that by now...get compost and aerating it into tea, well I don't rly have the time this week either...and maybe not next either.

I kinda wish I would have gotten my chit together earlier and started looking at the stuff so the little arguments wouldn't have polluted the thread....but then again, I find this thread both amusing and as a learning opportunity to get everything kind of out on the table for me for the first time.

Thanks guys you can keep on going.:)

[TMGL&L]

...And by the way I got rid of the weight training smiley in my sig because everyone made fun of me for it. I thought he was cool, apparently he isnt.
:weightlifter:

[JDUtah]

I'm leaving this alone. We are all on the same page in our belief that CT has a place. I could go on but we have been there before...

Tim will call me an "uneducated, ignorant, and useless something or other" and both he and his loyal defenders will threaten to put me on their ignore list. Then after a week or so they will calm down and talk will go on as usual until the next time I suggest that CT should not be the central part of an organic fertility program... and the process repeats itself.

Stopping before that all happens is progress, no? lol

Have a good day guys. :)

[Tim Wilson]

JD, your disrespectful tone to Tim is getting old

I have to accept some blame in this as I was a little arrogant to JD, although somewhat deservedly so.

You will note that this arrogant tone was concerned with the foundations of organic growing (pH and soluble nutrient manipulation) and had not to do with CT.

As for getting "very excited", I am blameless. My explanation related to the use of CT as a tool was quite calm and reasoned.

If I'm not mistaken, the American natives showed the newly arrived Europeans how to use fish carcasses to grow corn.....As TMG&L has pointed out organic technigue has been with us for centuries and that is only in the past century that we have learned that it is microbial activity which is responsible for the delivery of nutrients to roots. This concept was being encouraged by some microscopists at the beginning of the 20th century (I have the source if interested). I believe this was pushed to the side by better funded more socially adapted scientists (as happened with hand washing prior to surgery and delivering babies) and was overwhelmed by soluble chemical fertilizers, livestock anti-biotics, etc. The money asses won out and are still winning.

Anyway, the use of microbial horticulture is nothing new, just something old, explained. I have agreement with Kiril, in that this can get out of hand when people think that anything microbial is good. There is evidence of some harm to some eco-systems from transplantation of certain fungal species into forest areas from gardeners going microbially willy nilly. Judging by chatter on the forums, some growers, craving to get on the microbial band wagon are ordering bacterial cultures etc. online just because Joe Bloe said it was good. This is mildly scary.

On the other hand there are tremendous advances being made in Thailand, India and The Phillipines among other countries assisting poorer farmers to achieve good healthy crop yields using natural farming bolstered by the use of microbial consortia such as EM, cultured lacto bacillus (from rice), aerated compost tea and (BIM) beneficial indigenous microbes.

The use of microbial extracts and propogations have great potential but using reasoned logic is imperative. If you know that you have good compost, in all likelihood it will produce good ACT. If you buy EM stock microbes from a reputable source, in all likelihood you will extend a very useful inoculant, etc. It's part common sense, part research(90%) and part trust.

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

I'm leaving this alone. We are all on the same page in our belief that CT has a place. I could go on but we have been there before...

Tim will call me an "uneducated, ignorant, and useless something or other" and both he and his loyal defenders will threaten to put me on their ignore list. Then after a week or so they will calm down and talk will go on as usual until the next time I suggest that CT should not be the central part of an organic fertility program... and the process repeats itself.

Stopping before that all happens is progress, no? lol

Have a good day guys. :)

jd,

you are entitle to your views as all of us are. if you go back through all the past threads and reread your posts and the tone/words you used in regards to Tims reply to you, you will see i think he was justified in his responses.
ive never once seen him blatantly attack you for no good reason.
even if you don't agree with his philosophy or you disagree with aspects of it
you still need to understand that he deserves respect just as you would wish the same.

you are basically instigating these responses from the wiseass/tone you use.
look at the words you wrote in the quote.."loyal defenders"???? i mean come on dude, you done it to me so many times before. like when you said some crap like im a doc i worshiper or something along those lines???

and the jeff l. book, dude read between the lines, people help spread the word about that book because they like jeff and want him to do well
not that it's the organic bible or something, that book is for beginners, and theres plenty wrong in that book, look at the part on pH?

the point is, it seem you want all the secretes handed to you on a silver platter and if some one or book doesn't deliver fully and completly then
it's crap. wise up, take what you need and leave the rest.
we are all learning too, even the people that write books.
it's never ending, nothing written in stone. do you have anything to offer?


tmgl&,

i would like to hear your report once you view that bottled product.
remember you cant grow out the myco, and if you are familiar with fungi??
see if you can give a spore count on the endo myco?
thanks

[JDUtah]

deeproots pm sent

[JDUtah]

Well, I decided to post this here instead of send it via PM...

Really man. What in the world do you think I am looking for here? An orgy where we all get along? I know I deserved some flack from Tim... do you not remember I said I was ready for the rotten tomatoes?

As far as what I have to contribute... I have plenty, it just seems like you don't notice it. Re-read the thread. I am the one that originally taught TMGL&L that Mycho do not grow out in a CT. (Bill clarified which Mycho). As far as your post relating to the same thing... what did you offer? A reminder of something Bill and I had already walked him through?

Now on the same line... when I say something you don't agree with you insinuate that I don't have something to offer... Maybe because it doesn't seem to agree with what you like? Read the thread again. TMGL&L found value in what was being said or he wouldn't have encouraged the debate to go on. Smallaxe backed up what I said. I made valid points that even Tim openly admitted in his last post.

I want things handed to me on a silver platter? Are you joking? If I wanted stuff handed to me on a silver platter I would go buy a "beginner book" and believe all that I read in it. I am not afraid to think. I like to analyze the peer reviewed lit on my own. I test my own theories. I DO NOT jump on the CT bandwagon as a cure all. Buddy, I am NOT looking for people to give things to me. Well, sometimes I do rely on Kiril to link to the real reading. Tree to give an insightful tip. Others the same...

As far as the business keeping me too busy to think and post on Lawnsite... I believe it is important to spend time every day investigating things in your field. I also believe Lawnsite is a good place to do that (as long as you are NOT expecting the 'secretes' to be handed to you on a silver platter).

The Jeff book? Read between the lines? People recommend it in spite of misinformation just because they like Jeff? So in that case you didn't mean your own comment about 'BS product talk' then? I see. I like Bill. I believe his 123 can be appropriate at times. I spread that. In that case you believe that "[I] help spread the word about that [product] because [I] like [Bill] and want him to do well not that it's the organic [silver bullet] or something".

And just in case you didn't catch it... I am NOT supporting Bills OR Barry's products because I like them. In fact I am discouraging their use! I am saying stay local. Both Bill and Barry have a national marketing/distribution program. Can you see that I am not promoting their products just because I like them? I am being honest because I believe in integrity. But what I am saying is that if you can't stay local, their products, and the ways they are produced, seem to be reputable and relatively void of the environmental threats I have identified.

For everyone who reads this... you should have no question where I stand. I believe in honest discussion and as you can see I believe diplomacy is often a waste of energy. I also believe that the inherent fascination related to CT's causes them to receive more attention than they should. I am not afraid to be blunt about it. Nor am I afraid to receive crap about being blunt. I do however leave an argument when I believe it has lost its value. And with that I say... enjoy your CT experiment TMGL&L be be careful to not the let fascination of it distract you from fixing the real soil problems.. although you might be long past the novelty interest of microbes considering your circumstances and time spen tin the lab... In which case I say... happy grass growing!

[Tim Wilson]

JD,

I fear you may be delusional. I do not believe that one person referred to CT in the sense which you described.

I DO NOT jump on the CT bandwagon as a cure all.

Can you tell me who it is exactly that is on this bandwagon? One of my products is an inexpensive brewer, as you know, so people can use this tool in their own area using their own inputs or other inputs of their choice. The other product is a video DVD to help people to identify the micoorganisms in soil, compost and liquid amendments.

Please do not confuse products like 123ICT with on farm or home brewed aerated compost tea. There is very little comparison. There are a number of 'microbe in a bottle products' which include N fixing bacteria and an assortment of other microbes. I make no judgement of 123ICT, having no experience with it but at least 2 people I respect report good results using it in combination with an organic system. Some similar products have been on the market years before ICT. There was and may be still one company that develops custom consortia. I do have experience with the EM (effective microorganisms) stock consortia and have found it to be an excellent and affordable product in that it can be multiplied 20 times through fermentation. One contributor to its efficacy is the presence of PNSB (purple non-sulfur bacteria) a phototrophic type bacteria.

The advantage I find with home brewed aerated CT is that one can ensure a nutrient cycling population via the presence of bacteria/archaea and protozoa prior to application but really it is not that different than just using compost. I do not believe I've ever referred to CT as a cure all.

[JDUtah]

The delusion may be mutual? I never said you referred to CT as a cure all.

The bandwagon is that CT is (or is comparable to) a fertilizer.

Hope you have a great day!

[Tim Wilson]

The delusion may be mutual? I never said you referred to CT as a cure all.

The bandwagon is that CT is (or is comparable to) a fertilizer.

Hope you have a great day!

But someone did??? who?

Please define a fertilizer in the true sense so far revealed by science, excluding soluble chemicals.

No worries old bean.....or young bean.

[JDUtah]

But someone did??? who?

Tell me where I stated that someone said that? Actually wait. Don't. This is going nowhere productive.

Please define a fertilizer in the true sense so far revealed by science, excluding soluble chemicals.

As far as "fertilizer"... a fertilizer is a nutrient (plant available or requiring degradation) that is artificially added to a given environment.

[Kiril]

But someone did??? who?

Wait, wait, wait ........... can I play? :laugh:

I agree in part, and I also believe it initially can be likened to a chem fert. application. The big jump in microbial activity and subsequent nutrient release due to an application of CT could be argued as a very "unnatural" process.

[Tim Wilson]

JD,

Huh? I already posted your quote about the bandwagon and CT cure all. Right? What else did you think I was referring to? Who called it a cure all? Who is on the bandwagon?

No Kiril you are too mature to play! Get out of the sandbox please or I'll tell my mommy.


A fertilizer in organic terms does not provide nutrients to plants at all. This is the giant misinterpretation. There could be some residual plant available nutrients, minerals and micronutrients but generally organic fertilizers only feed the soil or in other words the microbes which populate the soil. This is currently accepted by the top soil scientists around the world.

If a compost tea had microbial nutrient cycling occurring when applied and that nutrient cycling continued one could easily argue in this sense that CT is indeed a fertilizer. I do not currently have the equipment to illustrate this to my satisfaction, however my own applications to my own plants over a 6 year period seems to bear witness to this.

[JDUtah]

A fertilizer in organic terms does not provide nutrients to plants at all. This is the giant misinterpretation. There could be some residual plant available nutrients, minerals and micronutrients but generally organic fertilizers only feed the soil or in other words the microbes which populate the soil. This is currently accepted by the top soil scientists around the world.

I assume that you understand the nutrient ions from synthetic fertilizers feed soil microbes as well as plants. It seems silly to me to acknowledge only a partial definition of fertilizer just because something can feed plants as well as soil microbes.

Please source your exclusionary definition from these 'top soil scientists around the world'.

You do remember we are growing plants not microbes correct? For extra credit... please show me where someone has been able to grow a plant intentionally without the natural colonization and association of microbes. Point is... if you build it they will come... so why bus them in? "It is useless to do efficiently that which should not be done at all"

Now to protect myself, remember I believe there are the occasional instances that CT has its place... well... actually... compost does do a soil good. BUT, if you need to jump start a previously dead soil that can now sustain life a CT app or two would be beneficial.

Which brings me to another question... do you have documentation where CT apps alter ph? You tell me I shouldn't worry about pH, but then claim microbes can alter pH. This leads people to believe that CT apps can alter pH... so I ask where is this documented?

As far as your bandwagon question.. you are fishing for an answer to something I didn't say.. I NEVER said anyone on this thread posted CT was a cure all... but let us drop the one?

[Tim Wilson]

"Please define a fertilizer in the true sense so far revealed by science, excluding soluble chemicals."

was what I requested, nothing more nothing less.

If nobody here said anything which concerned you so much about the CT bandwagon then why did you even bring it up? Trying to push buttons? Only a troll?

Perhaps tomorrow for the rest.

********************
Oh about the culturing of ectomycorrhizal mushroom species; there are many species which can be started in a culture and many of these are edible. A quick and dirty way is to drop the cap into a pail of water, ad some molasses as food and salt to impede bacteria. This should be dumped probably within 48 hours(?) into an appropriate growing zone. Better to use a sterile setup. CT is not an appropriate environment for specified species. (I think) There are also an enormous number of ectomycorrhizal mushroom species which cannot be cultured. Ectomycorrhizal fungi are primarily associated with trees and endomycorrhizal with grasses, vegetables, etc. Endomycorrhizal require roots to germinate. I am far from expert in this field but thought I should state this.

[JDUtah]

"Please define a fertilizer in the true sense so far revealed by science, excluding soluble chemicals."

was what I requested, nothing more nothing less.

So you want to discuss fertility but only if it relates to an exclusionary definition? Hmmmm... why?

I look forward to your citations btw.

If nobody here said anything which concerned you so much about the CT bandwagon then why did you even bring it up? Trying to push buttons? Only a troll?

No not trolling... and you might want to review.. I didn't bring it up... I simply agreed to a concern a professor had (http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=2914508&postcount=16)... the rest evolved as it usually does when I post ANYTHING for mineral fert or against CT in this forum.

Again, I look forward to tomorrow.

[Tim Wilson]

Hmmmm... why?


To guage your knowledge/learning ability.

"I look forward to tomorrow." perhaps is operative.(working hard)

[JDUtah]

To guage your knowledge/learning ability.

lol. How does jumping in a box gauge my learning ability? Boxes only restrict knowledge/learning ability IMO.

So besides that though.. how did I do? On a scale of 1 to 10... how 'able' am I to learn? :dizzy:

The problem is.. I cannot accept your definition because I believe it misses the point.

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

Well, I decided to post this here instead of send it via PM...

Really man. What in the world do you think I am looking for here? An orgy where we all get along? I know I deserved some flack from Tim... do you not remember I said I was ready for the rotten tomatoes?
[QUOTE/]

why wait for rotten tomatoes?? it's almost like you are trying to invoke them at times, all of us having different experiences/view points is what were here to share and learn from one another no? then why expect or try to invoke the tomatoe throwing? there's no reason for it, we are adults right, this is about learning and discussion right? no need to get so worked up over someone else opinions unless it's clear they are being deceitful in their responses, yes ive gone over board in the past with a certain sales man but i will not take full responsibility for all of that crap that happen. takes two to tango, i was up front with my questions at first till i got the topical sales man run around and got personally attacked multiple times by him and his facts seemed to never add up to me.

[QUOTE/]As far as what I have to contribute... I have plenty, it just seems like you don't notice it. Re-read the thread. I am the one that originally taught TMGL&L that Mycho do not grow out in a CT. (Bill clarified which Mycho). As far as your post relating to the same thing... what did you offer? A reminder of something Bill and I had already walked him through?[QUOTE/]

yes you did? taught him?? if he has any experience with fungi he should have know that already, but honestly. whats your point about that, have you ever tried to do that your self to see if that true or is it just some thing you have read or have seen others suggest,

[QUOTE/]Now on the same line... when I say something you don't agree with you insinuate that I don't have something to offer... Maybe because it doesn't seem to agree with what you like? Read the thread again. TMGL&L found value in what was being said or he wouldn't have encouraged the debate to go on. Smallaxe backed up what I said. I made valid points that even Tim openly admitted in his last post.[QUOTE/]

Again, agreeing or disagreeing with anything you say has nothing to do with what i said.

[QUOTE/]I want things handed to me on a silver platter? Are you joking? If I wanted stuff handed to me on a silver platter I would go buy a "beginner book" and believe all that I read in it. I am not afraid to think. I like to analyze the peer reviewed lit on my own. I test my own theories. I DO NOT jump on the CT bandwagon as a cure all. Buddy, I am NOT looking for people to give things to me. Well, sometimes I do rely on Kiril to link to the real reading. Tree to give an insightful tip. Others the same...[QUOTE/]

are you sure about that?

[QUOTE/]As far as the business keeping me too busy to think and post on Lawnsite... I believe it is important to spend time every day investigating things in your field. I also believe Lawnsite is a good place to do that (as long as you are NOT expecting the 'secretes' to be handed to you on a silver platter).[QUOTE/]

if you say so


[QUOTE/]The Jeff book? Read between the lines? People recommend it in spite of misinformation just because they like Jeff? So in that case you didn't mean your own comment about 'BS product talk' then? I see. I like Bill. I believe his 123 can be appropriate at times. I spread that. In that case you believe that "[I] help spread the word about that [product] because [I] like [Bill] and want him to do well not that it's the organic [silver bullet] or something". [QUOTE/]

i never said every thing in that book is wrong, not following you about my BS commit, but you most likely took what i meant out of context once again

[QUOTE/]And just in case you didn't catch it... I am NOT supporting Bills OR Barry's products because I like them. In fact I am discouraging their use! I am saying stay local. Both Bill and Barry have a national marketing/distribution program. Can you see that I am not promoting their products just because I like them? I am being honest because I believe in integrity. But what I am saying is that if you can't stay local, their products, and the ways they are produced, seem to be reputable and relatively void of the environmental threats I have identified.[QUOTE/]

your environmental concerns are a bit border line over the top, im in contact with all kinds of biological brews/composts ete, and never never have gotten sick, of course there can be dangers with certain organisms but there's dangerous organism's around us all the time regardless. would you lick your toilet/sink?


[QUOTE/]For everyone who reads this... you should have no question where I stand. I believe in honest discussion and as you can see I believe diplomacy is often a waste of energy. I also believe that the inherent fascination related to CT's causes them to receive more attention than they should. I am not afraid to be blunt about it. Nor am I afraid to receive crap about being blunt. I do however leave an argument when I believe it has lost its value. And with that I say... enjoy your CT experiment TMGL&L be be careful to not the let fascination of it distract you from fixing the real soil problems.. although you might be long past the novelty interest of microbes considering your circumstances and time spen tin the lab... In which case I say... happy grass growing!

o crap messed up the way i tried to answer your reply statements above, there in between your quotes

having your own opinion is fine but when you cross the line with your wiseasstone/commits cause you don't agree with what that person believes about REAL CT, you don't believe in real tea's fine. you never im sure till this day have even made or experimented with it properly yet in a balanced thought out program not forgetting proper fertility at the same time? im sure no one with any true integrity will say it's a end all be all cure or what have you.. once again it's a tool.

you just said" DIPLOMACY is a waste of time??? are you kidding?? how do you expect to network, share idea's ete thinking like that. I have much respect for TIM for one reason only, integrity, you said thats what your about right?
putting his beliefs aside, on his wed site he shows how to make different brewers, where to buy parts,links recipes ete ete. i sure anybody could email him and he would help them as best he could honestly for nothing. yeah he sells a brewer and a DVD, but tell me any other person/website/product maker that does that??

integrity is important to me as well, thats why i got so bent over the product guy. if i could go back in time i would have handled it differently but whats done is done. live and learn, work smarter not harder right?:rolleyes: i feel some are just out for the quick buck and trying to cash in on the green movement. maybe im wrong??
some say it's a good fight regardless of what sales tactics are being used but again honesty and integrity matter to me, and if i get the run around or i feel someone is not on the up and up i at times make my feelings known, even if i might let emotions get the best of me before properly trying to convey my point/view/opinions


listen bottom line, i like you jd, i think your a smart kid with a good head on your shoulders, even at your young age you have alot of common sense"at times:)" knowledge and some good fact based info to offer others while you keep growing and learning like the rest of us, but honestly you take things out of context" which is often" that leads to all this non horticultural related personal crap between me and others, let people have their views, if you don't agree then go about it in a more understanding way, when others say they want to put you on their ignore list it's just cause of the friction that get's stirred up for really no reason at all. you have to watch how you slide in your less then polite commits to people who are not deserving of that type of tone, hey is someone comes after you with no good reason then by all means defend your self but as far as TIM is concern you are and have been in the past way out of line.

im far from perfect, i mean far from it. i try to the best of my ability to work on my self and catch myself before i let my emotions and less then better judgment get the best of me," and it's hard, real hard, daily battle" ive had ton's of personal issue's growing up with drugs,family what have you. but through the forgiving blessings of my higher power most of my problems have thankfully been lifted from me for many years now,and my life seems to keep getting better daily, personally and professionally so please don't think im attacking you. forgiveness and understanding is a two way street.
i simply just could ignore you period, but i feel you are a good kid that just has/had his own issue's and is trying to find his way the best way he knows how.

I often have trouble conveying my true feeling/ thoughts at times in written formats like this so i hope you don't take anything i wrote the wrong way once again?:nono: if nothing i just said means anything to you then just let it go and i will promiss to never try to engage in discussion with you again...ok? cool.. peace out and all the best my young friend! best wish's to you on the new biz too!

good luck,
C.

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

holly crap you guys still at it? play nice there...

my only commit about growing out myco was about endo's

talks to ya's later

[JDUtah]

No offense taken Deeproots. Taking things out of context (IMO another word could be misinterpreting) happens a lot with this style of communication.. the ironic part is, I feel the same has been done by you and Tim. If you review this thread from page one you will see that I did not taunt one bit. The argument started when TIM threw the sarcastic remark at me.

Second about diplomacy... Webster definition: Skill in managing negotiations, handling people, etc., so that there is little or no ill will

You were involved in my whole Dale Carnegie thing a little while back right? One irony I noted while reading the book is that he constantly referred to Abraham Lincoln's ability to influence people. In reading you get the feeling that Abraham's skill in diplomacy is what made him so effective. Referring to my stated definition of diplomacy... Abraham Lincoln didn't do a very good job. Someone had so much 'ill will' towards him that they murdered him. Oops.

IMO Lincoln was effective because he stood up for what he believed in. Read this thread again. That is all I have done. I even tried to be somewhat diplomatic about it in the beginning. Heck you can even read how I offered to back out when I knew it was going to evolve into an argument. Also... I repeatedly stated the common ground and tried to leave it at that.

The truth about diplomacy is... even if done in the most tactful way... it is easy to offend someone if you publicly question the importance of something they are passionate about. That is all that happened here.

I will leave it at that. I do not believe CT is an effective part of an organic fertility program. You and Tim believe it is. The end.

Thanks for wishing me luck! I wish you and Tim the same!

[Smallaxe]

Sounds like a personal problem...

[hunter]

You would think by now you guys woould have grown up and decided to leave it alone. This thread has turned into nothing but a pissing match between kiril and tim. You stated your cases leave at it is.

[JDUtah]

You would think by now you guys woould have grown up and decided to leave it alone. This thread has turned into nothing but a pissing match between kiril and tim. You stated your cases leave at it is.

Hey, Kiril fights with Rodney... I fight with Tim... :laugh:

[hunter]

Your right for once sorry.. Just get tired of reading the crap and nothing useful after the second page.

[JDUtah]

Your right for once sorry.. Just get tired of reading the crap and nothing useful after the second page.

lol... ohhhh is that bait? ;) If you don't like what I have to say... put me on ignore... good day. :waving:

[TMGL&L]

Btw... I was working non-stop until pretty much for the last few days and didnt get back to the site until now I see I have some catching up to do on this mess... Well i skimmed it and I get the jist of whats going on...


tmgl&,

i would like to hear your report once you view that bottled product.
remember you cant grow out the myco, and if you are familiar with fungi??
see if you can give a spore count on the endo myco?
thanks

A myco count? No I have no idea how to do that...maybe later. I'm hoping just to see some shapes and specs that seem familiar and alive and so on. Maybe I will do a test on grass seed germination speeds, grass growth speed, health, soil water retention, and more stuff I cant think of right now next to a control... And yeah I know a little about fungi... not a self proclaimed expert or anything just a beginner.

[SIZE="4"]integrity is important to me as well, thats why i got so bent over the product guy. if i could go back in time i would have handled it differently but whats done is done. live and learn, work smarter not harder right? i feel some are just out for the quick buck and trying to cash in on the green movement. maybe im wrong??
some say it's a good fight regardless of what sales tactics are being used but again honesty and integrity matter to me



scott's water smart product line, grocery stores selling burlap bags b/c they want to save money on plastic and sell another “green” product to people who think they are saving the world as they drive off w/ their huge suv's packed full of reusable bags, could go on forever, every company says they are going green with something its retarded.... I hear ya. I still think even a totally b.s. "green" step is one in the right direction, or at least kind of.



As to real ct actually feeding grass and making a difference in the soil and all that good stuff I have another professor (not the first one) who also damns ct on turf altogether. His argument is that turf has very little relationship with mycos and bact compared to ither plants if any at all. He claims that it cannot live without the aid of people and or other plants... oxalis for one, for natural N.

lol... ohhhh is that bait? ;) If you don't like what I have to say... put me on ignore... good day. :waving:

When I said to have the debate carry on I def meant it. I meant I wanted to hear people's arguments for and against ct and different ideas about ct... maybe how to study ct... Important things about ct, or facts about facts about ct... I didnt intend for piss matches. Please don't throw the sand in anyones eyes guys... that's not nice.

[TMGL&L]

I plan to maybe just maybe get around to examining some tea weds if I have time. I have tons of work right now. The busyness is directly attributable to the end of the semester b.s. that goes on around finals.

I think I'll find time tho.

I definitely plan to experiment someday tho if not this week.

[treegal1]

ACT in the right time and place. that said it takes many tools to build the soil to what you want...............

compost is king and ACT is like the queen

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

A myco count? No I have no idea how to do that.


this is one of the best myco related sites i know of, you can find what
endo spores look like here plus ton's of other great info
enjoy
http://invam.caf.wvu.edu/fungi/fungindex.htm

[terrapro]

My CT app is to help release bound nutrients in the soil and fight bad microbes, is this not an accurate application?

[TMGL&L]

this is one of the best myco related sites i know of, you can find what
endo spores look like here plus ton's of other great info
enjoy
http://invam.caf.wvu.edu/fungi/fungindex.htm

Bill, I sent you a PM...

Thanks for the link. I have been just up to my ears in work these days. Literally working and sleeping. In the spring I rly don't have a life.....And, I am having trouble finding some side time to look at some drops under the scope. Also, I will be extensively combing over this site when I get a chance.

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

i thought you said you had interest/time and a lab to use to do this? don't make me regret posting that link for you. spore count please if you will, some kind of feed back of that product will do. but the spore count is what i want to know, if a had a billion dollars i would not send one penny to that salesman to find out what it looks like.
and i suspect you will not see anything interesting anyway under the glass from that product since it's dormant or?, perhaps some dust or something floating around?

but if there are endo myco fungi spores present you will be able to see them at 20x - 40x
now git'r done and post back please.