Backflow device testing

[ez2backflow]

Hi guys, New member. Been looking at the site haven't seen anything on backflow devices or testing? Do you guys do it? Do you have it done for you?

[cgaengineer]

Hi guys, New member. Been looking at the site haven't seen anything on backflow devices or testing? Do you guys do it? Do you have it done for you?

Are you talking about the double check back flow preventer right after the meter at the street? If so it has to be tested by a certified plumber. I just installed one at the office and had a friend (Plumber) certify it. Technically a plumber is supposed to install it as well but since its my friend he just certified that it was installed correctly.

[ez2backflow]

Are you talking about the double check back flow preventer right after the meter at the street? If so it has to be tested by a certified plumber. I just installed one at the office and had a friend (Plumber) certify it. Technically a plumber is supposed to install it as well but since its my friend he just certified that it was installed correctly.

The double check at the meter will not protect the residents from contamination from the irrigation system. unless it's installed on the dedicated irrigation line. Usually outside or at the water meter on the Irr line.

Also a double check is not approved for Irrigation (in Illinois anyway) must be RPZ due to the high threat.

Do you guys realize the only thing that holds back city water pressure is a thin rubber diaphragm! If these things sit for year after year, without ever being tested, well you know how rubber can deteriorate. If one of these diaphragms deteriorate to the point of rupture, even the smallest backflow device can discharge dozens of gallons of water every minute!

[cgaengineer]

The double check at the meter will not protect the residents from contamination from the irrigation system. unless it's installed on the dedicated irrigation line. Usually outside or at the water meter on the Irr line.

Also a double check is not approved for Irrigation (in Illinois anyway) must be RPZ due to the high threat.

Do you guys realize the only thing that holds back city water pressure is a thin rubber diaphragm! If these things sit for year after year, without ever being tested, well you know how rubber can deteriorate. If one of these diaphragms deteriorate to the point of rupture, even the smallest backflow device can discharge dozens of gallons of water every minute!

Some of the irrigation systems around here are on separate meters, those that are not, are installed behind a back flow preventer.

[Kiril]

Also a double check is not approved for Irrigation (in Illinois anyway) must be RPZ due to the high threat.

I believe any toxic rate BFD will pass an inspection.

http://www.normal.org/Code/12_05.asp

See -> SEC. 11.1.5-7 BACK FLOW PREVENTION DEVICES

[betmr]

Hi guys, New member. Been looking at the site haven't seen anything on backflow devices or testing? Do you guys do it? Do you have it done for you?

Did you notice the irrigation forum ?

[ez2backflow]

hey Kiril,
TOXIC RATE BFD? love it! Where did you get that?

Basicly there are three types of approved BFD's an Air gap, a double check device or an RPZ An air gap IS prefered but not posible in most applications. A double check valve is required on a low hazard line such as a residential fire line with no chemicals or outside connections. On a high hazard application, such as an irrigation system, you must use an RPZ.

AN IRRIGATION SYSTEM IS THE MOST HAZARDOUS CONNECTION TO A RESIDENTIAL WATER SYSTEM. Especially here in the midwest!

[ez2backflow]

Oh and cgaengineer,
A seperate meter doesn't matter a lot of times I have seen a second meter on an irrigation line many times. They use this to subtract the amount of water you use to water your lawn from your total water used and then only charge you a sewer tax on the water that went down your drain. So to speak.

NOW if the supply water is pumped from an outside pond or such, and there is no connection the the public water supply a BFD isn't needed. If the irrigation water's source is a public water supply it is suppose to be protected by an RPZ!

I have seen Ball fields ... just normal little league field where your or my kids could play. Have a drinking fountain on the same waterline as the irrigation sprinklers.

This is an UNBELIVABLE hazard to the children! And I've seen it many times!

[AI Inc]

NOW if the supply water is pumped from an outside pond or such, and there is no connection the the public water supply a BFD isn't needed. If the irrigation water's source is a public water supply it is suppose to be protected by an RPZ!

!

Please learn more about BFD,s before posting info like this in a public forum.

[ez2backflow]

Please learn more about BFD,s before posting info like this in a public forum.

Beg your pardon? I have been working with Backflow devices for fifteen years full time. How can you say that?

[AI Inc]

Your statement can leave people beleiving that an irrigation system running off a well that also serves the home dosnt need any backflow protection.
Also, an RPZ is not required on every system on city water. A PVB will work and is legal in many situations and locals.

[ez2backflow]

Your statement can leave people beleiving that an irrigation system running off a well that also serves the home dosnt need any backflow protection.
Also, an RPZ is not required on every system on city water. A PVB will work and is legal in many situations and locals.

WHAT?? How did you get that? That IS NOT anywhere near what I said. Many times I've seen irrigation water pumped from ponds to irrigate land such as golf courses etc.

What I said was: an IRRIGATION System is the MOST HAZARDOUS CONNECTION TO A RESIDENTIAL WATER SUPPLY. It dosen't matter if your on a well or city water
And a PVB, I am sure was state of the art when it was introduced about twenty five years ago. but alass it too, went the way of the 8 track tape.
Around here anyway. I am not allowed to install or repair PVB's if they test out OK, on an old system, no problem, if they fail, or they upgrade the system they must be replaced with an RPZ.

I am sure those same regs will will come around your state sooner or later.
Around here if you don't test your backflow they can and will shut your water off. I have seen them do it!

[AI Inc]

NOW if the supply water is pumped from an outside pond or such, and there is no connection the the public water supply a BFD isn't needed. If the irrigation water's source is a public water supply it is suppose to be protected by an RPZ!

This is what you said , and it could leave one beleiving a system not connected to city water dosnt need protection.

Even thou DCVA,s are not allowed in my area , they are legal in a lot of the country. A PVB is also legal in most areas.

[ez2backflow]

NOW if the supply water is pumped from an outside pond or such, and there is no connection the the public water supply a BFD isn't needed. If the irrigation water's source is a public water supply it is suppose to be protected by an RPZ!

This is what you said , and it could leave one beleiving a system not connected to city water dosnt need protection.

Even thou DCVA,s are not allowed in my area , they are legal in a lot of the country. A PVB is also legal in most areas.

OK A1 your right, I suppose I should have CLEARLY stated "NOW if the IRRIGATION supply warer is pumped ..." I assumed you understood what I meant. Excuse me.

[AI Inc]

Yes , I did , knowing the rules. But others may not have and bad info could leave them installing unprotected systems.

[Kiril]

Even thou DCVA,s are not allowed in my area , they are legal in a lot of the country. A PVB is also legal in most areas.

Don't leave out AVB in that list.

[ez2backflow]

AVP and PVB's are dinosaurs, they will be exstint soon. they don't provide the protection you need on an irrigation ine. I wouldn't install one even if I could. You shouldn't either!

[Kiril]

AVP and PVB's are dinosaurs, they will be exstint soon. they don't provide the protection you need on an irrigation ine. I wouldn't install one even if I could. You shouldn't either!

Dinosaurs or not, when installed properly they do provide high hazard protection.

[ez2backflow]

Dinosaurs or not, when installed properly they do provide high hazard protection.

No they don't! simple as that.

[Kiril]

No they don't! simple as that.

http://www.asse-plumbing.org/Articles/Backflow/CCC%20Protection%20Devices.pdf

[cgaengineer]

Oh and cgaengineer,
A seperate meter doesn't matter a lot of times I have seen a second meter on an irrigation line many times. They use this to subtract the amount of water you use to water your lawn from your total water used and then only charge you a sewer tax on the water that went down your drain. So to speak.

NOW if the supply water is pumped from an outside pond or such, and there is no connection the the public water supply a BFD isn't needed. If the irrigation water's source is a public water supply it is suppose to be protected by an RPZ!

I have seen Ball fields ... just normal little league field where your or my kids could play. Have a drinking fountain on the same waterline as the irrigation sprinklers.

This is an UNBELIVABLE hazard to the children! And I've seen it many times!



Around here a second meter would matter because both meters are required by the city and county to have a back flow device. The city/county want to protect their system from contamination.

[ez2backflow]

OK Guys you win, you install whatever is allowed in your area!

[Kiril]

OK Guys you win, you install whatever is allowed in your area!

I see, so in other words ..... no reply to the ASSE classification of BFD's showing AVB's and PVB's are high hazard rated (or toxic rated)? In fact, the only ones that are not rated high hazard are those with check valves (double/dual checks and atmospheric vent (type of double check), which BTW, we all know. For someone with 15 years experience with BFD's, I would think you would be aware of ASSE ratings.

[ez2backflow]

I see, so in other words ..... no reply to the ASSE classification of BFD's showing AVB's and PVB's are high hazard rated (or toxic rated)? In fact, the only ones that are not rated high hazard are those with check valves (double/dual checks and atmospheric vent (type of double check), which BTW, we all know. For someone with 15 years experience with BFD's, I would think you would be aware of ASSE ratings.

ok OK! *trucewhiteflag*What is there to comment on? Kiril. I didnt join this forum to get into a pissing match with you or anyone else. They are not allowed in our area, I'm not suppose to even fix them! I wouldn't install one even if I could! They DON"T provide the protection of an RPZ. BUT, You install whatever is allowed in your area.

[AI Inc]

Keep in mind , your typical home with a well is running a 42-52 pressure switch. When you give up 12 psi to the rpz that leaves 30psi at the head.
A pvb only takes away 2 psi, leaving the system with enough pressure to opperate correctly.

[Kiril]

Keep in mind , your typical home with a well is running a 42-52 pressure switch. When you give up 12 psi to the rpz that leaves 30psi at the head.
A pvb only takes away 2 psi, leaving the system with enough pressure to opperate correctly.

Hmmmm, yes, plus back pressure is not normally an issue in irrigation, so why would you need a RPZ? Use the appropriate BFD for the job that is allowed by code.

[jmbl&s]

Try Water Services out of Elgin, IL for your backflow testing...they're great people to work with with reasonable prices...call information for their number....!

[AI Inc]

Hmmmm, yes, plus back pressure is not normally an issue in irrigation, so why would you need a RPZ? Use the appropriate BFD for the job that is allowed by code.

Exactly, unless your also tied to a pump elsewhere ( ilegal to do around here ) you are only dealing with backsiphonage.