Toro Engine Dies After 30-45 Minutes...

[jlink]

I have a 1995 Toro Groundsmaster 223-D. For some reason the engine will die after 30-45 minutes of mowing and will not start until I quick charge the battery. I had the 635 Cranking Amp Battery load tested yesterday at Advance Auto. They ran the battery through a series of load tests over a 30 minute period and said the battery checked out fine but that it was drained for some reason when I brought it in. They suspect something on the mower is severly draining it. The battery showed 12.3 volts when I took it in to be tested but would drop to 10.1 volts when I hit the starter which is not enough to crank it. The battery is only 11 months old and is a 5 year battery. I also tested the alternator and got 14.6 volts from it. I'm at a losss here since my thinking is, if the battery is bad, then it should run off the alternator with 14.6 volts including running the electric clutch..right???. If the alternator is bad, then why am I getting 14.6 volts from it???
Anyone know what else could kill the engine after 30 to 45 minutes of mowing and also drain the battery?? The only thing on the mower that I know of that could drain a battery that quick would be the pre-heat unit for the diesel engine but it seems to be operating okay. Any Ideas???????

[betmr]

How are you starting it to begin with, after sitting over night. Do you have to jump it to start ? Sounds like a dead short somewhere. Are you the same guy who had trouble the other day with your shut down circuit ? Same 223D.

[jlink]

How are you starting it to begin with, after sitting over night. Do you have to jump it to start ? Sounds like a dead short somewhere. Are you the same guy who had trouble the other day with your shut down circuit ? Same 223D.

No... I am not the guy with the troubled shut down circuit. I just bought the mower a week ago and it has always turned over slow when I started it but I felt like that was due to just a weak battery. After it started dying on me after mowing for 30-45 minutes I took the battery to have it tested before buying a new one. They tested it yesterday and said it was good. The battery sat in the mower all night and I started it up after lunch today. It turned over slow but did start. I checked the voltage at the battery with it running and got 14.6 volts. I started mowing and approx 45 minutes later it died. I tried restarting it but it turned over too slow to start the engine and then started clicking. I removed the battery and hooked it up to the battery charger for 30 minutes and then re-installed the battery in the mower and it fired right up. I rechecked the voltage with it running and again had 14.6 volts. I mowed for another 15 minutes before shutting it down. After I shut it down, I checked the battery voltage and got 12.3 volts but that dropped down to 11 volts when I hit the starter button but like always, it then went up to 14.6 once it cranked. Shouldn't it continue to mow off the alternator even if the battery was bad???

[betmr]

It's not shutting down because of the battery. Diesel engines don't have an ignition system like gas. right now i'm a little stumped. all you need for a Diesel to run are fuel and air. How are your fuel filters and air filters. Is the fuel tank venting Ok. The radiator is it OK and filled with coolant, there could be an over temp safety switch. Are you bouncing off the seat and activating the operator presence switch ? This is a hard one for me without seeing it.

I tried to look at the service manual on it, But since it is out of production you can only get the manual by purchasing it. $28.00 at toro.com. If you want it I can guide you to it.

[jlink]

UPDATE!!!!!... I just went out and started the mower. After it cranked, I unhooked the battery and then engaged the electric clutch to see if the blades would spin without the battery. It ran fine and mows WITHOUT the battery but since its dark outside now I didn't run it but for a few minutes.
Now I am even more lost than I was. If the mower will run off the alternator alone then why is it shutting down after 30-45 minutes and draining the battery too??? HELP!!!!!!!

[betmr]

UPDATE!!!!!... I just went out and started the mower. After it cranked, I unhooked the battery and then engaged the electric clutch to see if the blades would spin without the battery. It ran fine and mows WITHOUT the battery but since its dark outside now I didn't run it but for a few minutes.
Now I am even more lost than I was. If the mower will run off the alternator alone then why is it shutting down after 30-45 minutes and draining the battery too??? HELP!!!!!!!

It's not running off the alternator, it's Diesel, It runs on the high temp of the compression, there is no electrical ignition in it. you could rip out all the wires and it will still run. All those wires are for start circuit, shut down circuit, and safety circuit. A diesel engine in itself has no electrical circuit. There is something else wrong here.

[jlink]

It's not shutting down because of the battery. Diesel engines don't have an ignition system like gas. right now i'm a little stumped. all you need for a Diesel to run are fuel and air. How are your fuel filters and air filters. Is the fuel tank venting Ok. The radiator is it OK and filled with coolant, there could be an over temp safety switch. Are you bouncing off the seat and activating the operator presence switch ? This is a hard one for me without seeing it.

I tried to look at the service manual on it, But since it is out of production you can only get the manual by purchasing it. $28.00 at toro.com. If you want it I can guide you to it.

I installed a new fuel filter and air filter 3 days ago. The radiator seems to be okay and is filled with coolant. I haven't checked the fuel tank venting and not sure of how to check that. The water temp gauge never goes over 3/4 so I don't think it is an overheating problem. I'll try to check out the operator's safety switch tomorrow. I'm stumped since WHATEVER it is, is also draining the battery too since after it dies, I have to quick charge the battery to get it running again. That leads me to think it is somehow tied into an electrical problem.. Maybe a safety switch or ignition switch or something else that would also cause the engine to die.

[betmr]

Check these safety switches, and try to clean their connectors while you do it (with a little sand paper) Seat switch, neutral switch (follow the foot pedal linkage back to the trans, it should be there) PTO switch (under the lever). Do you know where the shut down solenoid is, it's at the fuel pump. Try to run it with the wires to that solenoid disconnected, and see if you still shut down after while.

If ever you have to emergency shut down, and nothing shuts it down, don't panic, with a pair of pliers, pinch off the fuel line till it shuts down. There are only 2 ways to shut down a diesel engine, stop the air, or stop the fuel.

PS: how many hours on this machine ?

[jlink]

It's not running off the alternator, it's Diesel, It runs on the high temp of the compression, there is no electrical ignition in it. you could rip out all the wires and it will still run. All those wires are for start circuit, shut down circuit, and safety circuit. A diesel engine in itself has no electrical circuit. There is something else wrong here.

Understood...Thanks. Now I can rule out the battery and alternator. I know the fuel filter and air filter are good. so I can also rule those out as well. Fuel Tank Venting I haven't checked yet but I can't see how that would also drain a battery. You have led me to believe it must be in either the start circuit, shut down circuit, or safety circuit. Any way to test these circuits or disable them long enough to see if I can mow longer than 1 hour without it dying???

[IRRITECH]

Allright, this may be a long shot but pull the fuel line off the tank side of the fuel filter and see how much fuel is coming from the tank. I had a W/B that would run for 20 min and die. Finally figured out that there was a clog in the fuel line AT THE TANK. Maybe not the issue for your diesel but an easy one to check.

[betmr]

Understood...Thanks. Now I can rule out the battery and alternator. I know the fuel filter and air filter are good. so I can also rule those out as well. Fuel Tank Venting I haven't checked yet but I can't see how that would also drain a battery. You have led me to believe it must be in either the start circuit, shut down circuit, or safety circuit. Any way to test these circuits or disable them long enough to see if I can mow longer than 1 hour without it dying???

OK you look that stuff over, follow some wires around looking for possible shorts, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to check what IRRITECH suggests. In fact toro recommends draining and cleaning the fuel tank periodically. But on second thought I'm not sure this is for you. The reason is if you get air in the fuel lines, your going to have to bleed the system, although it is simple for a mechanic, it takes a little understanding, and might be difficult for you.

Do you have the owner's manual?

[jlink]

OK you look that stuff over, follow some wires around looking for possible shorts, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to check what IRRITECH suggests. In fact toro recommends draining and cleaning the fuel tank periodically. But on second thought I'm not sure this is for you. The reason is if you get air in the fuel lines, your going to have to bleed the system, although it is simple for a mechanic, it takes a little understanding, and might be difficult for you.

Do you have the owner's manual?

Yes.. I do have an owners manual and parts manual. I've already bled the fuel system. I had to do that after I changed the fuel filter and water seperator the other day. Its not that big of a deal to purge the air out of the system. Thanks for all your help. I will check all the wiring to the start, stop, and safety circuits that I can find tomorrow and see how that goes. I'll also try to bypass the seat switch and re-check the new fuel filter incase the tank is dirty. Am I right thinking that the seat switch and the high temp switch are the only two things that should shut the engine down if everything is working properly?.. My manual says that the high temp shutoff light will come on IF the engine shuts down due to high temps. So far that light has not come on.

[jlink]

Ohhh btw, the mower has quite a bit of hours on it. 2700 hours on the mower and approx 1100 on the engine. The mower looks as though it was well taken care of.

[betmr]

Your machine is older than what I have, so I haven't actually worked on a 223D I have a 325D and a 328D They both have a Neutral safety switch, which is located by the right side of the trany, a PTO safety switch which is under the PTO lever, an Operator presence switch, which is under the seat, and the over temp switch, I'm not sure of it's location as I have never had to deal with it. I can't say yours has all these switches but I'll bet it does. As well as checking that the switch works, remember it could be out of adjustment. I'm going to say this is a starting point. Everything check out, we'll look for something else. :usflag:

[jlink]

It does have a little micro switch on the side of the transmission pump. I don't have a PTO lever, just a toggle switch to turn the blades on. My Electrical Schematic Diagram does not show any PTO Saftety switch between the PTO Switch and the electric clutch. I'm assumimg that the neutral safety switch is to only allow the engine to start when in neutral but what exactly is the PTO safety switch used for?? Would those switchs kill the motor after it is running if the operator's presence switch is working correctly????

[betmr]

The PTO saftey switch is so you can't get out of the seat with the blades turning.

[jlink]

The PTO saftey switch is so you can't get out of the seat with the blades turning.

Is the Operator Presence Safety switch and the PTO Safety switch the same switch???

[betmr]

The operator presence is the seat switch, With an electric clutch, I'm assuming the PTO switch is part of the control module. I would suggest you check all your mechanical safety switches and then focus on the fuel shut off solenoid.

[topsites]

By the way...
You don't want to run an engine without the battery, that acts as a voltage
regulator and once it's unhooked the unlimited voltage potential can burn
through all kinds of electrical circuits.

But it sounds like it's overheating, is it liquid cooled?
If so, thermostat could be stuck in the closed position.

[jlink]

Ok.... I think I have finally figured out what my problem was thanks to your help. In fact I believe I had two different problems. One problem was the engine dying and the other problem was a weak battery. Looks like the reason the engine was dying was because of a dirty fuel tank. I replaced the fuel filter 3 days ago and checked it today and it was as clogged today same as it was 3 days ago. I've never seen so much black gunk in a filter before. Seems like the mower had set for two years with old fuel in it and a black gel looking coating is lining the inside of the tank. I plan on removing the tank and giving it a good cleaning.
While I was checking all the start, stop, and safety circuits, I discovered a hot wire with the insulation cover skinned back that was rubbing the frame. I imagine it was shorting out and draining my battery. I've sinced fixed that problem.
Anyone know if there is any product out there that will clean the gunk out of a diesel fuel tank. I don't think clean diesel fuel will do the job since I can't get my hand or a brush inside the tank to scrub the black gunk off the walls.

[betmr]

If you are going to take the tank off, put some gas in it, and shake it around real good, dump it out, then put some diesel in and and shake it around and dump out. That should be good. You'll have to bleed up to the fuel filter.

Glad to hear you are getting to the bottom of your problem, good luck with it. Let us know how it turns out.