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View Full Version : Next Lazer Z Returned


Greyst1
04-21-2009, 01:12 PM
Ok, so i thought i would post this because there has been alot of threads asking about the Next Z.

First off i'm extremely experienced with mechanics and engineering in addition to Exmarks products. I've always used Exmarks from a Viking, Turf Tracer to a Z. Over the weekend i bought a 60" 27 Kohler Next Z for 10669.00 (i know, crazy). After looking at it, mowing with , annd evaulating the finish product i returned it. So here is why:

First off, i felt the machine was well engineered....but i didn;t like the fact that so many parts were removed in this new design (i.e belts, hoses, grease points, battery placement, hardware etc...). Any time a manufacter re-designs their number one selling product with less parts they are trying to lower the cost of goods sold and ultimately lowering the quality of the machine. Example, the new vise grips from Irwin made in China. I think they made a mistake with direct drive pumps/motors buts thats only my opinion

Ok, second 10700.....how can they justify this price in this economy with a un proven machine in such an competive maket place.

But that wasn't what put me over the top. Exmark is known for its qualitymachine, cut, deck, blah, blah, blah, no arguement there. The cut on the new machine was great (but the deck wasn't redesigned, the machine was), it's the fact the this machine is now a Toro. There is so much plastic on this machine it's crazy, not to mention the craftsmenship is weak. Everything that is not held in place by a fastener feels like its about to break off. Simple test, feel the hour gauge, its not even fastened down snug, it's so loose. Now, let me say i don't have anything against Toro, they are great machines, but they aren't Exmark. If you want a Toro with an Exmark Deck for 11K, this is the right machine for you.

In the end, i bought a 08' Lazer Z HP with a 23 Kohler 52" deck for 6850.00. This mahcine has always been my favorite, it's built like a tank.

ALC-GregH
04-21-2009, 01:20 PM
I would have demoed it first before I drop that much on a mower.

KrayzKajun
04-21-2009, 01:32 PM
cant go wrong with a lazer Z . i love mine

grassaholic
04-21-2009, 01:36 PM
What dealer in their right mind would sell you a mower and let you return it like that? Thats what demoing a mower is for. The only reason I would see a dealer taking it back would be because you got a lemon. Not because you decided even though the mower works fine, you decided you don't like the way they designed the mower. The funniest thing is you stated in your post that one of the reasons you took it back was because it cost too much.:laugh::dizzy: Usually if a person decides something costs too much, they don't go ahead and buy it. I just can't imagine going back to the dealer and saying, I've decided to return this $10000 mower because I decided I don't like the way it's designed and I think I paid too much for it. It leaves a nice cut and everything works fine. I just decided I don't like it. If I was the dealer I would have to tell you, you should have thought about that before you bought the mower from me.:dizzy:

Crazy Cutter
04-21-2009, 01:50 PM
What dealer in their right mind would sell you a mower and let you return it like that? Thats what demoing a mower is for. The only reason I would see a dealer taking it back would be because you got a lemon. Not because you decided even though the mower works fine, you decided you don't like the way they designed the mower. The funniest thing is you stated in your post that one of the reasons you took it back was because it cost too much.:laugh::dizzy: Usually if a person decides something costs too much, they don't go ahead and buy it. I just can't imagine going back to the dealer and saying, I've decided to return this $10000 mower because I decided I don't like the way it's designed and I think I paid too much for it. It leaves a nice cut and everything works fine. I just decided I don't like it. If I was the dealer I would have to tell you, you should have thought about that before you bought the mower from me.:dizzy:

Ok good I'm glad someone else looked at this the same i did! I read the OP three times to make sure I understood it. The machine works fine, cuts well, nothing wrong and you just up and return it? WTF dude? I think it is safe to say that you proly burned your bridges with this dealer pulling a stunt like that! Grassaholic said is best, if you didnt like the design or the price why did you sign on the dotted line and take it in the first place? Especially without demoing the unit! Not to dog pile on the poster but customers like this piss me off to no end!:cry: Can't make them happy no matter what to no fault of the dealer:hammerhead:

M&SLawnCare
04-21-2009, 02:14 PM
I thought the same thing. Everything negative you said about it was plainly clear before you bought it. You state its well engineered, then you go on to condemn everything from the battery placement(your kidding with this right?), to the belts, to the hour meter and even compared the mower drive system to some redesigned vice grips in china??

I find it hard to believe a dealer would take it back because you paid too much and didn't like the new design. This post almost feels like a troll post.

grassaholic
04-21-2009, 03:16 PM
I pretty much think this guy is full of it. No dealer would take a mower back because someone suddenly decided they didn't like the way it was engineered and they thought they paid too much for it. :hammerhead: This guy just wants to piss and moan about the price increase for Exmark this year. This guy obviously thinks that the changes made to Exmarks haven't been for the better. He just wanted to make himself sound like a big shot by saying he bought one of these "expensive" new Exmarks and took it back.:rolleyes:

TheC-Master
04-21-2009, 03:29 PM
Man you can by a lazer Z for 6850? I saw some for about 8 grand, I was thinking about how much a 48" zero turn would cause. I love my 36 but man was it pricey.

Greyst1
04-21-2009, 03:32 PM
I have bought several machines from this dealer and i have an excellent relationship with him which is why he let me return it. My dealer has made alot of money off me and he see's that so he did the right thing.

No demo's were available to me at the time or else i would have. My issue is with the machine. I'll be the first to say i love Exmarks, they are great machines.

I think dealers will see LCO's buying AS's over the stock Z. JMO

Price was an issue after i saw what i was getting.

grassaholic
04-21-2009, 03:35 PM
So the dealer took it back after you already cut grass with it?

Greyst1
04-21-2009, 03:37 PM
Grassaholic,

Good thing your not my dealer, i would never buy anything from anyone with that kind of attitude. The simple fact alone that my dealer gives me this kind of flexiblity has retained my business in a contracting economy.

Greyst1
04-21-2009, 03:39 PM
C-Master

Lazer Z HP 23 Koh 52". They are few left out there but you can still find one. My brother and i both bought one.

blake2727
04-21-2009, 03:44 PM
That sounds about right for an 08. I paid 7600 for my grasshopper with 23 KOH and 52" deck but its a 09. Could have got a 08 Lazer Z 46" with 19 Kaw for 6000 but wanted the 52 and liked the grasshopper a lot better.

Greyst1
04-21-2009, 03:44 PM
M&S Lawncare

if you know anything about MFG'n you will see that removing parts from a product that is great is critical in quality. I'm not comparing a mower to a vise grip, i'm using vise grips as an example of a good product gone to crap because of corporate idiots trying to lower the cost. Buy a new z and see for yourself and yes, battery placement exposed to the elements reduces it life.

grassaholic
04-21-2009, 03:49 PM
It's also a good thing your not my customer. I would not be a happy dealer if you came to me and said you wanted a new Lazer Z and I said," sure, these new ones are a bit more expensive, they are runnin over 10 grand". You say, "yea sure, I love Exmark and the new ones are supposed to be great." I get your new mower in, you look it over and take it home. After looking it over at home, and mowing with it, you bring it back and say you don't want it. I ask whats wrong and you tell me that after looking at the changes made to the new Lazer Z's, you think they are not going to last like the old ones. The new mower runs good, handles good, and cuts good, but you think that your smarter than the engineers at Exmark/Toro and don't like the changes made to the mower. I guess that dealer will just end up selling your unit at a discounted price as a demo.

grassaholic
04-21-2009, 03:55 PM
M&S Lawncare

if you know anything about MFG'n you will see that removing parts from a product that is great is critical in quality. I'm not comparing a mower to a vise grip, i'm using vise grips as an example of a good product gone to crap because of corporate idiots trying to lower the cost. Buy a new z and see for yourself and yes, battery placement exposed to the elements reduces it life.

Battery placement in an enclosed/hot area will also reduce it's life. In the end that is a stupid thing to be upset about. I would be willing to bet there is a good reason for the battery placement. I'm sure an engineer decided where the battery goes, not a corporate idiot.

tacoma200
04-21-2009, 03:58 PM
I've had ZTR bought back because of performance, not that it was easy but I got 100% of my money back after about 50 hrs of trying to get it to cut correctly. The company did me right and stood behind the dealer so the dealer didn't loose money.

grassaholic
04-21-2009, 04:03 PM
I've had ZTR bought back because of performance, not that it was easy but I got 100% of my money back after about 50 hrs of trying to get it to cut correctly. The company did me right and stood behind the dealer so the dealer didn't loose money.

Thats what I'm talkin about. You actually had a problem with your unit and they finally took it back. This guy just decided AFTER he bought it that he didn't like it. Appearently he is an expert on how mowers are built. Appearently the new Lazer Z's are built more cheaply than the previous units. Appearently he has a very good dealer to take the mower back because he thinks that the new Lazer Z isn't worth what he paid for it.

Mr. Force™, Billy Goat Industries
04-21-2009, 04:36 PM
Before one goes into how corporate idiots and manufacturers remove parts to make it cheaper and plastic this and plastic that please understand the cost of engineering those independent pumps (wait until a pump goes out, then you'll wish they were independent), the cost of designing a uni-body, the cost of the plastic molds, the cost of the aluminum castings. The up-front costs are enormous. However, if they don't differentiate their product by doing these things it becomes an apples to apples market. They are trying something uniquely outside the box to stand out in a crowd of over 30 different ZTR manufacturers.

I am in no way connected to Exmark or Toro nor do I want to be. But going off on them because they've changed their design doesn't seem logical. If it was we'd still be mowing lawns with push mowers and driving model T's. Is change always good? No way, but more times than not it is. It's a clever system with quite a bit of unique to this industry engineering. Time will tell how it holds up. Now if the price is too high for the perceived value, so be it. One should have more deeply considered this before driving it off the lot. The dealer will not forget forget a customer who returned a unit in this manner.

KGR landscapeing
04-21-2009, 04:54 PM
The dealer didnt have a demo for him to run so. He took it home it wasnt what he excpected. He took it back and bought another pice. It sounds like he did the right thing. Both you and the dealer.

ALC-GregH
04-21-2009, 05:18 PM
The dealer didnt have a demo for him to run so. He took it home it wasnt what he excpected. He took it back and bought another pice. It sounds like he did the right thing. Both you and the dealer.

I feel the same way.

Greyst1
04-21-2009, 05:21 PM
i guess every engineer at an auto mfg is wrong about putting the battery in an enclosed location. I'm going to write them asking to mount the battery on the trunk deck.

Greyst1
04-21-2009, 05:26 PM
Grassaholic, i never said i was and expert, just experienced with engineering, design, and ,mfg. people buy stuff all the time and return it (appearantly you don't). these are all just my opinions, don't cry about it. my whole point to this post was toro is ruining exmark just like they did with lawnboy. less parts mean less money in the BOM, less to warranty and less inventory blah blah blah.





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brucec32
04-21-2009, 06:31 PM
I'm curious which of your criticisms was not easily able to be discerned by you before you purchased it?

I have no idea if it's a good machine or not, but I find it pretty silly to return a mower that cuts well and is "well engineered" for the following reasons:

- it doesn't have enough parts. Fewer parts in engineering is usually a good thing.
- the hour meter isn't sturdy enough. That's a shade above judging a mower by the durability of the traction pads on the foot rests or the decals. My guess is it manages to avoid dropping off.
- it has direct drive pumps that are advertised as easier and cheaper to replace and the reliability of which you provide no evidence of being inferior. My hunch is they wouldn't slap low life pumps on their top seller and kill the brand.
- You object to the price. Did they spring that on you later or something?
- Actually it IS in a way a Toro. When did Toro buy Exmark, 11 years ago? Have you noticed the mowers' growing resemblence over the years? They're virtual twins. Toro bought Exmark to get their hands on the design I was told. And again, how was this changed after you bought it vs before?
- "everything not held down by a fastener felt like it was about to break off". Care to cite any examples? And wouldn't things not held down by fasteners simply fall off first? ; )
- I have a lazer hp myself. Go look at a 400 series Toro. It's virtually the same mower except for the deck. I certainly cannot ascertain any durability related differences.

It sounds like you had buyers remorse over the big price tag and happily you wound up with a machine that will likely cost you less to operate in the long run due to the lower depreciation hit. Your dealer was very accomodating to let you buy one, turn it into a used machine, then return it even though it functioned well.




Ok, so i thought i would post this because there has been alot of threads asking about the Next Z.

First off i'm extremely experienced with mechanics and engineering in addition to Exmarks products. I've always used Exmarks from a Viking, Turf Tracer to a Z. Over the weekend i bought a 60" 27 Kohler Next Z for 10669.00 (i know, crazy). After looking at it, mowing with , annd evaulating the finish product i returned it. So here is why:

First off, i felt the machine was well engineered....but i didn;t like the fact that so many parts were removed in this new design (i.e belts, hoses, grease points, battery placement, hardware etc...). Any time a manufacter re-designs their number one selling product with less parts they are trying to lower the cost of goods sold and ultimately lowering the quality of the machine. Example, the new vise grips from Irwin made in China. I think they made a mistake with direct drive pumps/motors buts thats only my opinion

Ok, second 10700.....how can they justify this price in this economy with a un proven machine in such an competive maket place.

But that wasn't what put me over the top. Exmark is known for its qualitymachine, cut, deck, blah, blah, blah, no arguement there. The cut on the new machine was great (but the deck wasn't redesigned, the machine was), it's the fact the this machine is now a Toro. There is so much plastic on this machine it's crazy, not to mention the craftsmenship is weak. Everything that is not held in place by a fastener feels like its about to break off. Simple test, feel the hour gauge, its not even fastened down snug, it's so loose. Now, let me say i don't have anything against Toro, they are great machines, but they aren't Exmark. If you want a Toro with an Exmark Deck for 11K, this is the right machine for you.

In the end, i bought a 08' Lazer Z HP with a 23 Kohler 52" deck for 6850.00. This mahcine has always been my favorite, it's built like a tank.

Crazy Cutter
04-21-2009, 06:54 PM
Was it ever discussed with your dealer before you purchased the mower that you would take it out and then maybe return it if one little thing wasn't right? If so then fine the dealer was aware of this before hand and thats his business practice. What so many people or trying to beat into you is, all these things you didnt like about the machine were plainly visible and explainable on the showroom floor before you ever tried it out and purchased it. I find it sad that you have that kind of dealer / customer relationship where he know's your going to be such a PITA that he expects you to return things and says he's ok with it. Proly isn't ok with it but that isn't the topic. I wouldn't have the guts to do what you did just because it didn't have enough parts for you and some things were plastic and that has a perceived cheapness feel to it for you.

r.eckley
04-21-2009, 07:42 PM
I did not know the next LAZER was available with a KOHLER . I thought the onlyengine was a KAWI. 29 or 34. I have a next LAZER & i love it. Anything would be better than a triton deck.

mowerknower
04-21-2009, 11:17 PM
Ok, so i thought i would post this because there has been alot of threads asking about the Next Z.

First off i'm extremely experienced with mechanics and engineering in addition to Exmarks products. I've always used Exmarks from a Viking, Turf Tracer to a Z. Over the weekend i bought a 60" 27 Kohler Next Z for 10669.00 (i know, crazy). After looking at it, mowing with , annd evaulating the finish product i returned it. So here is why:

First off, i felt the machine was well engineered....but i didn;t like the fact that so many parts were removed in this new design (i.e belts, hoses, grease points, battery placement, hardware etc...). Any time a manufacter re-designs their number one selling product with less parts they are trying to lower the cost of goods sold and ultimately lowering the quality of the machine. Example, the new vise grips from Irwin made in China. I think they made a mistake with direct drive pumps/motors buts thats only my opinion

Ok, second 10700.....how can they justify this price in this economy with a un proven machine in such an competive maket place.

But that wasn't what put me over the top. Exmark is known for its qualitymachine, cut, deck, blah, blah, blah, no arguement there. The cut on the new machine was great (but the deck wasn't redesigned, the machine was), it's the fact the this machine is now a Toro. There is so much plastic on this machine it's crazy, not to mention the craftsmenship is weak. Everything that is not held in place by a fastener feels like its about to break off. Simple test, feel the hour gauge, its not even fastened down snug, it's so loose. Now, let me say i don't have anything against Toro, they are great machines, but they aren't Exmark. If you want a Toro with an Exmark Deck for 11K, this is the right machine for you.

In the end, i bought a 08' Lazer Z HP with a 23 Kohler 52" deck for 6850.00. This mahcine has always been my favorite, it's built like a tank.

My interpretation "I went to my dealer and he had the next lazer sitting on the floor. It was so sweet looking, it gave me a huge hard on just looking at it. I just had to buy it. I took it home and man was it sweet. Then the boss got home (see the name on the marrage liscence) and asked me how much it cost. When I told her she made me sleep on the couch. So all night long I tried to think of a reason to return the mower but I the only thing I could think of was that the hour meter was flimbsy. So I went back to my dealer and bought something my wallet could handle"

topsites
04-21-2009, 11:31 PM
Oh I got even better news, I will more than likely never buy another Ztr.
Why, because it's just a stupid status symbol, all it does is cost me money.

i guess every engineer at an auto mfg is wrong about putting the battery in an enclosed location. I'm going to write them asking to mount the battery on the trunk deck.

No, what you do is take the whole car back for a refund.

Mow N GO 06
04-21-2009, 11:36 PM
M&S Lawncare

if you know anything about MFG'n you will see that removing parts from a product that is great is critical in quality. I'm not comparing a mower to a vise grip, i'm using vise grips as an example of a good product gone to crap because of corporate idiots trying to lower the cost. Buy a new z and see for yourself and yes, battery placement exposed to the elements reduces it life.

I will only say this and I will be done with this thread. Both the buyer and the dealer in this situation are both Wackos. I would stay out of OH if I were you. I would think that ANYBODY in this business that is willing to drop $10700 on a new mower would have seen where the battery was BEFORE he took it home. And I would think the dealer should have showed him where the battery was BEFORE he let him take it home. Like I said,...WACKOS. Enough Said. Im done. This post is garbage.

Mow N GO 06
04-21-2009, 11:42 PM
I'm curious which of your criticisms was not easily able to be discerned by you before you purchased it?

I have no idea if it's a good machine or not, but I find it pretty silly to return a mower that cuts well and is "well engineered" for the following reasons:

- it doesn't have enough parts. Fewer parts in engineering is usually a good thing.
- the hour meter isn't sturdy enough. That's a shade above judging a mower by the durability of the traction pads on the foot rests or the decals. My guess is it manages to avoid dropping off.
- it has direct drive pumps that are advertised as easier and cheaper to replace and the reliability of which you provide no evidence of being inferior. My hunch is they wouldn't slap low life pumps on their top seller and kill the brand.
- You object to the price. Did they spring that on you later or something?
- Actually it IS in a way a Toro. When did Toro buy Exmark, 11 years ago? Have you noticed the mowers' growing resemblence over the years? They're virtual twins. Toro bought Exmark to get their hands on the design I was told. And again, how was this changed after you bought it vs before?
- "everything not held down by a fastener felt like it was about to break off". Care to cite any examples? And wouldn't things not held down by fasteners simply fall off first? ; )
- I have a lazer hp myself. Go look at a 400 series Toro. It's virtually the same mower except for the deck. I certainly cannot ascertain any durability related differences.

It sounds like you had buyers remorse over the big price tag and happily you wound up with a machine that will likely cost you less to operate in the long run due to the lower depreciation hit. Your dealer was very accomodating to let you buy one, turn it into a used machine, then return it even though it functioned well.

Ok, I Lied, I have one more to post. Your mechanics experience and engineering experience has landed you a full time job cutting grass.............Get my drift yet?

Mow N GO 06
04-21-2009, 11:43 PM
Ok, so i thought i would post this because there has been alot of threads asking about the Next Z.

First off i'm extremely experienced with mechanics and engineering in addition to Exmarks products. I've always used Exmarks from a Viking, Turf Tracer to a Z. Over the weekend i bought a 60" 27 Kohler Next Z for 10669.00 (i know, crazy). After looking at it, mowing with , annd evaulating the finish product i returned it. So here is why:

First off, i felt the machine was well engineered....but i didn;t like the fact that so many parts were removed in this new design (i.e belts, hoses, grease points, battery placement, hardware etc...). Any time a manufacter re-designs their number one selling product with less parts they are trying to lower the cost of goods sold and ultimately lowering the quality of the machine. Example, the new vise grips from Irwin made in China. I think they made a mistake with direct drive pumps/motors buts thats only my opinion

Ok, second 10700.....how can they justify this price in this economy with a un proven machine in such an competive maket place.

But that wasn't what put me over the top. Exmark is known for its qualitymachine, cut, deck, blah, blah, blah, no arguement there. The cut on the new machine was great (but the deck wasn't redesigned, the machine was), it's the fact the this machine is now a Toro. There is so much plastic on this machine it's crazy, not to mention the craftsmenship is weak. Everything that is not held in place by a fastener feels like its about to break off. Simple test, feel the hour gauge, its not even fastened down snug, it's so loose. Now, let me say i don't have anything against Toro, they are great machines, but they aren't Exmark. If you want a Toro with an Exmark Deck for 11K, this is the right machine for you.

In the end, i bought a 08' Lazer Z HP with a 23 Kohler 52" deck for 6850.00. This mahcine has always been my favorite, it's built like a tank.

Ok, I Lied, I have one more to post. Your mechanics experience and engineering experience has landed you a full time job cutting grass.............Get my drift yet?

Mow N GO 06
04-21-2009, 11:45 PM
Ok, I Lied, I have one more to post. Your mechanics experience and engineering experience has landed you a full time job cutting grass.............Get my drift yet?


Wrong reply post...hehe..This post was not for brucec32 , it was for the wacko buyer.

Greyst1
04-22-2009, 12:31 AM
db,

I'm a commercial and residential property owner who does his own maintenance on my properties and yes i do make more money at this. Hate the game not the player. College educated and all, gee how could that of happened.....

tacoma200
04-22-2009, 08:41 AM
Don't some company's such as John Deere give a 30 day trial or something on ZTR's. Maybe this isn't that uncommon. I have one mower bought back by the dealer because it wouldn't cut grass without missing stragglers and they sent me every adaptor they had with no success. They said if I wasn't happy they would give my money back so I took it. But they did try, but my customers didn't want it to be used on the lots because of the cut in my area.

gunner19
04-22-2009, 08:49 AM
Don't some company's such as John Deere give a 30 day trial or something on ZTR's. Maybe this isn't that uncommon. I have one mower bought back by the dealer because it wouldn't cut grass without missing stragglers and they sent me every adaptor they had with no success. They said if I wasn't happy they would give my money back so I took it. But they did try, but my customers didn't want it to be used on the lots because of the cut in my area.


The JD 30 day return policy is for residential equip only.