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SOS Landscaping
04-21-2009, 03:41 PM
Never had to do a job like this before so not sure on pricing. I have a customer who had a terrible paver job done around her pool. The back half of the patio has settled like crazy and requires the existing pavers to be removed, dust added and reinstall the pavers that were currently there. It is approx 1500sq ft of the section that needs work. Should i just charge her a normal hourly rate to have the pavers removed and than just charge my normal install rate minus roughly 4.50sq ft for the cost of pavers since she already has them?

Basically I think 2 guys can remove the pavers in an 8 hour day, so round that up to 10hrs at $98 hr = $980 for removal. Normally I am around $10 a sq ft so knock it down to $5.50 a sq since I am not purchasing any block which would be $8250 for the leveling and reinstall.

Total job would be $9230...

Any input on this?

BOEpavers
04-21-2009, 04:56 PM
I think you are oversimplifying this. Why did the pavers settle? Probably a base or base compaction issue especially since this is around a pool. Adding "dust" won't correct this issue so you need to figure your costs to correct the base. Also, don't assume you won't need any pavers. Due to cuts, slight differences in laying, etc. you almost certainly will need additional pavers,especially if the pool is irregular in shape. You should figure the labor to recut as needed as well. Also, are the pavers available either through spares the homeowner has or through a distributor.

When we do these our contract always states only time and materials to investigate the problem and that once we pull the pavers and get a chance to examine what the underlying cause of the settlement is we will provide a fixed contract price to repair. In most cases it works out that our cost to repair will be more than what we would have charged to do the install from scratch.

benjammin
04-21-2009, 05:04 PM
Yeah, why did the pavers settle? Make sure the pool/plumbing isn't leaking.

hvphotog
04-21-2009, 09:09 PM
Like said above i don't think just adding stone dust or sand will solve this problem sounds like they are on soft clay maybe and a firm base with roadway stabalizing fabric and 4 to 6 " of item 4 compacted need to be installed before blocks go back in... Hard to say without seeing but i would for sure remove what is there and around there and plan on redoing the sub-base the right way. assume nothing.. give a set price to do it the right way, if it takes less than charge less and they will be happy in the end, if you under bit and raise your price they will not be happy at all

SOS Landscaping
04-21-2009, 09:23 PM
they feel the the reason for the sinking is due to a ground hog. Personally I feel there is a few reasons why it is happening. The pavers have been in for years and the original install never installed drainage which constantly flooded out the pool area according to the customer. She later had drainage installed, but the drains and the plumbing is only on the area that has to be replaced, so the plumbing doesnt run across the whole patio if you understand what im saying. The entire area with the pool is probably in the 4000sq ft range, so the other half of the pool area is in perfect shape. The customers backyard is on a huge slope and when the pool was dug out, the pool company built a retaining wall and backfilled to make the pool area flat. This to me is part of the reason for the sinking, improper compacting was done regardless and probably an unsuitable base as well as things naturally compressing over the years. She storngly thinks it is a ground hog as this all has happened only over the winter months and she knows that she has a ground hog who has been burrowing near the pool. I have already told her that replacing the pavers is going to be an issue as these pavers are pretty old and weathered therfore i am sure they will be hard to find a match. I told her it might honestly be easier to jsut replace the whole patio with new pavers then for me to remove everything, fix the problem and reinstall. She didnt seem that the idea was not an option, but obviously doesnt want to go through that cost again. She does not have any other block leftover either.
As for right now I agree that the area in question does need to be removed and evaluated. I guess the best way to qoute the removal would be at my hourly rate correct? Do you think I am right bidding 16-20 man hours for the removal of 1500-2000sq ft of block?

hvphotog
04-21-2009, 09:27 PM
i was just thinking of how long to take up 800 sq ft and came up with 3 guys 3 hours so that would be 9 man hours.. my time includes putting them on a pallet and shrink warpping but sounds like you are about right on the time. If she suspect a ground hog look for his hole and also get a probing pole or lightening rod you can hammer into the ground to look for caverns under the patio.. If you hit one someplace than how you fix it changes

4 seasons lawn&land
04-21-2009, 09:46 PM
The only thing I question is the 100 bucks an hour... do most of you guys make 800+ a day?

Rex Mann
04-21-2009, 09:51 PM
The only thing I question is the 100 bucks an hour... do most of you guys make 800+ a day?

Yes, even more if you know what your doing

Peace,

Rex

http://PaverExperts.Com

hvphotog
04-21-2009, 09:52 PM
The only thing I question is the 100 bucks an hour... do most of you guys make 800+ a day?

I charge 30 per man per hour and 40 per hour for me if i am off equipment and 85 and hour running the mini or such.. bumping it up to 35 an hour i think though

what do you charge S L&L?

4 seasons lawn&land
04-21-2009, 10:30 PM
I shoot for 500 a day but tend to stick around a while, 9-10 hours a day. Im in a pricey area of NY so Id be surprised if others were pulling off double for labor, not equipment fee's, just your labor.

hvphotog
04-22-2009, 09:32 AM
I shoot for 500 a day but tend to stick around a while, 9-10 hours a day. Im in a pricey area of NY so Id be surprised if others were pulling off double for labor, not equipment fee's, just your labor.

Is that what you want to make or what you charge for your man hours for the day>? and where in NY I am also in the lower hudson Valley.. I do work from Yonkers (mainly hardscape and excavation down there) to lower Sullivan County with orange county being my home base for lawn care.

4 seasons lawn&land
04-22-2009, 01:33 PM
Is that what you want to make or what you charge for your man hours for the day>? and where in NY I am also in the lower hudson Valley.. I do work from Yonkers (mainly hardscape and excavation down there) to lower Sullivan County with orange county being my home base for lawn care.


2-3 hours north. In a popular area for the ones with money from your area to go for the weekend.

I dont know what you mean by the first question. 500 seems about right for what I get done in a day for this type of work. But Im not sure really. Ive been doing this a year, maybe I should get more.

hvphotog
04-22-2009, 08:26 PM
first question is what you personally want to make a day or what you what your company to gross a day?

4 seasons lawn&land
04-23-2009, 04:50 PM
seven billion dollars... but not eight, I'm not greedy.

VBigFord20
04-26-2009, 10:03 AM
$98 a hour even with machine would get you tared and feathered here in Cleveland. I have a excavator I use for large job, 40+ years as an operator and can set sewers with his eye better then I can with a lazer and he charges $75 an hour to come in with anything up to a backhoe. Anything bigger then that is more, but understandably running a trackhoe all day or a D8 uses a ton more fuel.

Nearly 9k seems like a lot of money when all your talking about doing is taking up material that's already there, fixing a drainage issue, putting down rock and putting the pavers back. How much machine time do you expect to have on this job? Seems to me most of it is handwork (taking up, putting back). The only use for a machine would be to bring in fill.

Now Obviously I don't know the lay of the land so I could be overgeneralizing this and it could be way harder then your post describes. It just seems to me that you are either way high, or I charge way to little.

Summit L & D
04-26-2009, 10:22 AM
If the customer is already trying to solve the problem and you suggest that it is actually something else - she is going to get several other bids. Ideally, the whole area needs to be redone, but working on the 1,500 sq. ft. will be a good start. Take it all the way down to sub soil and compact, compact, compact. Then bring in your base and follow normal procedures. $9,300 seems very low for this project. $18,000+ plus should get you in the range.

Fair warning: You will be underbid, and most likely lose the job to a guy that says all she needs is sand in a few spots and then be good to go. Oh, and his bid will be less that $3,000.00.

SOS Landscaping
04-27-2009, 07:40 PM
If the customer is already trying to solve the problem and you suggest that it is actually something else - she is going to get several other bids. Ideally, the whole area needs to be redone, but working on the 1,500 sq. ft. will be a good start. Take it all the way down to sub soil and compact, compact, compact. Then bring in your base and follow normal procedures. $9,300 seems very low for this project. $18,000+ plus should get you in the range.

Fair warning: You will be underbid, and most likely lose the job to a guy that says all she needs is sand in a few spots and then be good to go. Oh, and his bid will be less that $3,000.00.

Ive been talking more with the customer about the plan of attack and she said the pool an patio have been there for about 15-18 years and the pavers were redone 10 years ago... Basically she understands that I have to tear up the area in question to see the next plan of action. The more we talk the more it might turn into redoing the entire patio. I just dont see myself being able to find pavers that are going to look like these if they are really 10-15years old... Even if i do, these ones that are there are so weatherd they wont even match

summit just wondering if you could PM me a breakdown of that $18,000 price you think... Not saying its too high, im just starting to think that I am way to low on my thinking and wondering how you came up with that price.

Summit L & D
04-27-2009, 08:08 PM
As far as PM'ing you a breakdown....I didn't do one. Given the information you provided, and a general understanding of estimating...I think that is about where you're going to be. There are so many variables that I just don't know to be able to give you a price for the job, besides, your costs to operate your company are different than mine. Keep in mind the situation you may have with the base. It may be reusable once it has been dug out and recompacted, but it may be contaminated and have to be completely replaced. And by the way, 1,500 sq. ft. redo for $18,000 is pretty low in my opinion. Know your cost...and CHARGE them.

SOS Landscaping
05-12-2009, 08:12 PM
Well Im here to post a little bit of an update. I bid on the removal of the pavers and I got the job, more than likely I will have the entire job. The customer finally understands that her pavers are not going to be reusable so they picked out very new style with 2 competely different colors than what they currently have. Depending on what the underlying problem is will determine if they redo the upper level of the pool which is probably another 800-1000sq feet. When I was out on the estimate I did a lot more closer looking around and Im hoping I figure out what the problem is. When the pool was installed 15years ago the pool company built a railroad tie retaining wall to make the area level. They didnt step back each row on the retaining wall, just stacked them right on top of eachother and put support posts into the ground. I shot a line down the wall and in the center it is bowed out 6-8". So im hoping this is the problem and not a compaction issue. The customer wants me to replace the top roe of railroad ties with new ones and than put more support posts into the ground to stop the wall from moving any more. For this part I plan on subbing it out to a excavating contractor as I do not want the wall shifting to be my fault if it happens down the road.

Anyway the square footage for the bottom level was rounded up to 1000sq ft with all of the cuts involved. Again I priced it for $1000 for removal as far as disposal goes Im debating on renting a container for probably around $500 bux or I can dump everything at the county dump, however they charge per ton so I would have to figure out the weight of all these pavers...

I will be at the job tomorrow doing some other work so I will take pictures on post them for you guys to take a look at.

White Gardens
05-12-2009, 08:43 PM
I shot a line down the wall and in the center it is bowed out 6-8". So im hoping this is the problem and not a compaction issue. The customer wants me to replace the top roe of railroad ties with new ones and than put more support posts into the ground to stop the wall from moving any more. For this part I plan on subbing it out to a excavating contractor as I do not want the wall shifting to be my fault if it happens down the road.

Anyway the square footage for the bottom level was rounded up to 1000sq ft with all of the cuts involved. Again I priced it for $1000 for removal as far as disposal goes Im debating on renting a container for probably around $500 bux or I can dump everything at the county dump, however they charge per ton so I would have to figure out the weight of all these pavers.

Sounds like the wall needs to be replaced with something other than railroad ties.

Also, check around to see if you have any asphalt plants nearby. Sometimes they take old pavers and concrete to put into thier asphalt and it won't cost you a dime to dump it there.

SOS Landscaping
05-12-2009, 08:48 PM
Sounds like the wall needs to be replaced with something other than railroad ties.

Also, check around to see if you have any asphalt plants nearby. Sometimes they take old pavers and concrete to put into thier asphalt and it won't cost you a dime to dump it there.

She really doesnt want to remove the retaining wall and make a nice block wall as it just butts up to the woods and she only plans on living in the house for a few more years so she doesnt want to make that investment.

Ive got a few asphalt plants close by so ill check into that

Summit L & D
05-12-2009, 09:20 PM
If you don't replace that wall, you're not doing her any more favors than the original guy did installing the pavers the first time. That wall has to go! There is no way that adding a new RR tie on top is going to help anything at all....I don't care how many supports you add. You might try a boulder wall for cost effectiveness, but even those are tricky to get proper compaction behind. I think it would be irresponsible to not properly address the wall situation. You are a professional, do what you know is right for your customer...even if they pass on you for the job. You will sleep much better at night knowing you did the right thing, and didn't just take somebody's money.

Just fwiw.

BOEpavers
05-13-2009, 06:52 AM
Every time I read your posts I get this funny feeling you keep looking for easiest, cheapest solution to a problem that you and the HO don't fully understand and won't until you start to rip things up. Don't automatically assume that subbing out the wall will absolve you of liability. The only way that would happen would be if the HO signs a contract directly with the contractor who is doing the work. I agree with Summit - be a professional, do the right thing even if it means walking away. You've done well in getting the HO to agree that all the pavers need to come up. Now get them (and you) to understand that the solution doesn't exist until that happens and you see what's under there. It very well could be the wall, or the original "groundhog" thought, or a poorly backfilled and compacted pool, or any of several other things. As previously stated in an earlier post - you don't know enough yet to price this job.

White Gardens
05-13-2009, 11:39 AM
When it comes to the wall, if it is replaced, it will help her sell the home in the future. Any potential buyer will come in with an inspector and they notice things like that outside the house.

You'll need to use some salesman-ship to up-sell her on replacing the wall. She needs to realize she will get at least a 100% return on the money spent to do it right when the house sells.

hvphotog
05-14-2009, 06:13 PM
From the photos it does appear the wall maybe need to be replaced although maybe not the block itself
as for a 100 % return on spending the money what you are basing that on? I have been a real estate broker for 10 years and NAR has done millions in research to see what actually returns money on investment into a home and retaining walls are not something that come close to 100% return.

Do you have some type of data to back up your claim ?

Only reason i am point this out making any kind of statement can come back to bite you should she contact a Real Estate office. Always and only give advice on something you know of and can back up with actual data.. save some headaches in the future and maybe a lawsuit too.. If you are interested i can forward to you the data i am referring to which is based on over 250,000 home sales across the country.


When it comes to the wall, if it is replaced, it will help her sell the home in the future. Any potential buyer will come in with an inspector and they notice things like that outside the house.

You'll need to use some salesman-ship to up-sell her on replacing the wall. She needs to realize she will get at least a 100% return on the money spent to do it right when the house sells.

White Gardens
05-14-2009, 07:48 PM
From the photos it does appear the wall maybe need to be replaced although maybe not the block itself
as for a 100 % return on spending the money what you are basing that on? I have been a real estate broker for 10 years and NAR has done millions in research to see what actually returns money on investment into a home and retaining walls are not something that come close to 100% return.

Do you have some type of data to back up your claim ?

Only reason i am point this out making any kind of statement can come back to bite you should she contact a Real Estate office. Always and only give advice on something you know of and can back up with actual data.. save some headaches in the future and maybe a lawsuit too.. If you are interested i can forward to you the data i am referring to which is based on over 250,000 home sales across the country.

It will give you that sort of return in certain markets. It's just a generalized statement. I'm sure it pertained to a broader market base before real-estate took a nose-dive.

There was a magazine I read that in, let me find it and I'll quote it correctly.

Here's a link, if you type landscaping investment return in google you get a bunch of hits on it.

http://www.landscape-america.com/landscapes/value.html

hvphotog
05-15-2009, 09:15 PM
Without out a doubt will help it sell for sure.. and just as important looks like a safety issue as well.