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supercuts
04-23-2009, 04:34 PM
my big gripe with these "vs" threads is most people never tell you if they have tried both machines and most seem to side with which ever brand they have in their signature. since we are finally mowing, now ive been able to compare.

so, i recently bought a scag turf tiger and have had a bobcat predator pro. the scag is a 29hp kawi DFI liquid cooled and bobcat is a 33hp generac air cooled.

both have plenty of power. the kawi is much louder. the cut is almost the same. the ride seems a bit smoother on the scag but close. the big differences to me: the weight and size. the scag feels more heavy. they both have 16cc hydro pumps and the bobcat seems to have much less stress. the scag has a huge tailswing compared to the bobcat. i used to fit a WB and 2 ztrs, all bobcats in my 18' enclosed trailer with a good 1-2' of room to spare. swapping one bobcat ztr for the turf tiger, there is about one inch left.

ive heard many say the scag is the best build machine out there. it feels very well built but so does the bobcat. one thing i dont like about the scag is the weight. it feels very heavy and i was told by the dealer the front casters yokes bend if you hop too many curbs. i think its because the mower is so heavy. the bobcat doesnt have this problem.

i thing that annoys me with the scag is foot pedal/latching the deck up as well as the height selection layout. the bobcat blows it away. i love having both the hand and foot pedal on the bobcat. also its difficult to reach some heights compared to the bobcat and difficult to see.

the added length of the scag seems to also scalp easier since the wheels are further apart.

all and all, they are both great machines. it really is preferences. i know i complained the scag and praised the bobcat, but they are close. but simply because i can have more room on the trailer with the bobcats as well as the lighter weight, and deck height adjustments, i prefer the bobcat. the only thing i liked more on the scag was it was a bit more smooth on rough ground.

i want to point out that i have had little time on teh scag and have had bobcats for a long time. the differences i found have little to do with time on the machine though.

food for thought if considering between them.

supercuts
04-23-2009, 07:39 PM
wow, a couple hours after i post this and its alreaday a couple pages back

Razorblades
04-23-2009, 10:46 PM
Thanks for the post, as it is always interesting to hear from someone who has used both machines at the same period of time on the same grass. You said that the cut was nearly the same; which one would you give the edge to? what are your mowing conditions; turfgrass, native grass and weeds...etc? Have you cut in enough different conditions to tell if the Scag is going to disperse the clippings better, without clumping or are your accounts maitained often enough so that is not an issue? How has the Generac engine held up for you and do you know what the avg. fuel useage is in gallons per hour? My mower has a 32 Generac on it and I avg about 1.5 -1.6 GPH with high lift blades and slightly more with the super high lift blades. Some of the properties that I cut are on a biweekly or 10 day cycle so the extra power of the Generac is better for me that the 29 Kaw DFI that I demo'ed (same mower just different engine). The Kawasaki couldn't handle the thick, tall grass like the Generac could. I was just wondering if you had put both mowers in tough enough conditions to tell if the Generac seemed more powerful to you on your mowers?

nosparkplugs
04-23-2009, 10:58 PM
I agree on the trailer space with the Scag TT one reason of the many I did not go with Scag. The front caster arms on the TT are just way to long, and some will say only a Scag can hold hills thats just BS

Also the Scag height adjustment/foot pedal is a cramped design for me, and It physically wore me out buy the end of the day adjusting heights on commercial accounts

I went with the AOS diesel, and did not have to purchase a new trailer to add another ZTR



my big gripe with these "vs" threads is most people never tell you if they have tried both machines and most seem to side with which ever brand they have in their signature. since we are finally mowing, now ive been able to compare.

so, i recently bought a scag turf tiger and have had a bobcat predator pro. the scag is a 29hp kawi DFI liquid cooled and bobcat is a 33hp generac air cooled.

both have plenty of power. the kawi is much louder. the cut is almost the same. the ride seems a bit smoother on the scag but close. the big differences to me: the weight and size. the scag feels more heavy. they both have 16cc hydro pumps and the bobcat seems to have much less stress. the scag has a huge tailswing compared to the bobcat. i used to fit a WB and 2 ztrs, all bobcats in my 18' enclosed trailer with a good 1-2' of room to spare. swapping one bobcat ztr for the turf tiger, there is about one inch left.

ive heard many say the scag is the best build machine out there. it feels very well built but so does the bobcat. one thing i dont like about the scag is the weight. it feels very heavy and i was told by the dealer the front casters yokes bend if you hop too many curbs. i think its because the mower is so heavy. the bobcat doesnt have this problem.

i thing that annoys me with the scag is foot pedal/latching the deck up as well as the height selection layout. the bobcat blows it away. i love having both the hand and foot pedal on the bobcat. also its difficult to reach some heights compared to the bobcat and difficult to see.

the added length of the scag seems to also scalp easier since the wheels are further apart.

all and all, they are both great machines. it really is preferences. i know i complained the scag and praised the bobcat, but they are close. but simply because i can have more room on the trailer with the bobcats as well as the lighter weight, and deck height adjustments, i prefer the bobcat. the only thing i liked more on the scag was it was a bit more smooth on rough ground.

i want to point out that i have had little time on teh scag and have had bobcats for a long time. the differences i found have little to do with time on the machine though.

food for thought if considering between them.

tacoma200
04-23-2009, 11:04 PM
my big gripe with these "vs" threads is most people never tell you if they have tried both machines and most seem to side with which ever brand they have in their signature. since we are finally mowing, now ive been able to compare.

so, i recently bought a scag turf tiger and have had a bobcat predator pro. the scag is a 29hp kawi DFI liquid cooled and bobcat is a 33hp generac air cooled.

both have plenty of power. the kawi is much louder. the cut is almost the same. the ride seems a bit smoother on the scag but close. the big differences to me: the weight and size. the scag feels more heavy. they both have 16cc hydro pumps and the bobcat seems to have much less stress. the scag has a huge tailswing compared to the bobcat. i used to fit a WB and 2 ztrs, all bobcats in my 18' enclosed trailer with a good 1-2' of room to spare. swapping one bobcat ztr for the turf tiger, there is about one inch left.

ive heard many say the scag is the best build machine out there. it feels very well built but so does the bobcat. one thing i dont like about the scag is the weight. it feels very heavy and i was told by the dealer the front casters yokes bend if you hop too many curbs. i think its because the mower is so heavy. the bobcat doesnt have this problem.

i thing that annoys me with the scag is foot pedal/latching the deck up as well as the height selection layout. the bobcat blows it away. i love having both the hand and foot pedal on the bobcat. also its difficult to reach some heights compared to the bobcat and difficult to see.

the added length of the scag seems to also scalp easier since the wheels are further apart.

all and all, they are both great machines. it really is preferences. i know i complained the scag and praised the bobcat, but they are close. but simply because i can have more room on the trailer with the bobcats as well as the lighter weight, and deck height adjustments, i prefer the bobcat. the only thing i liked more on the scag was it was a bit more smooth on rough ground.

i want to point out that i have had little time on teh scag and have had bobcats for a long time. the differences i found have little to do with time on the machine though.

food for thought if considering between them.

Nice review.....
I actually like the length of the Tiger because I have large sometime rough lots but it did scalp easier than the Exmark Lazer. It is a big heavy mower, I would call it industrial compared to most brands. But that isn't what everyone needs. The Lazer was more maneuverable and better in tight spaces. I guess it's the right tool for the right job. The Turf Tiger isn't the right tool for everyone. To be honest I hated Turf Tigers until I put about 50 hours on one and saw how many more things I could do with it. I always hated the dampers on the sticks but I guess I just adjusted and now I don't even think about it. But that's just my area. It is too large and heavy for some applications. So I understand you grievances and think your points are valid.

supercuts
04-24-2009, 07:30 AM
i dont know if i could give an edge to one. i think the scag cut a hair better, if at all. the scag seemed to clump grass directly out the side where the bobcat seems to throw clumps out a few feet, so we'll call that one a draw. yesturday was our first full day of mowing (20 lawns) and we sampled from turf to native to lots of weeds.

the 29hp DFI seemed a bit less powerful then the 33hp generac. i really love the 33hp. i just bought the scag used over the winter. i bought the bobcat new. both mowers were new 11/06 and both have 1000-1050hrs so they are nearly identical in that aspect. as far as fuel comsumption, my older bobcat has a 25hp kawi and the 33hp may use no more than a gal of fuel more over an 8hr period. but it really isnt that noticable.

we're mowing 23 lawns today, alot of turf, ill post again tonight. ill be paying much more concern to the cut and clumping today. we are doing alot of 60K plus square foot large thick lawns today and it will be nice to see how they do.

did i mention i got the scag off craigslist in january, 990hrs, 29hpkawi, collection system, $4000, it was $12,300 new, he gave me the reciepts. GOOOOOOOO CRAIGSLIST! just bought a 2000 20' 10K lb big tex trailer for my kubota, has the extended tongue, heavy duty tailgate, lift springs, and nice tonge tool box, $1200. its a $4500 trailer.
Thanks for the post, as it is always interesting to hear from someone who has used both machines at the same period of time on the same grass. You said that the cut was nearly the same; which one would you give the edge to? what are your mowing conditions; turfgrass, native grass and weeds...etc? Have you cut in enough different conditions to tell if the Scag is going to disperse the clippings better, without clumping or are your accounts maitained often enough so that is not an issue? How has the Generac engine held up for you and do you know what the avg. fuel useage is in gallons per hour? My mower has a 32 Generac on it and I avg about 1.5 -1.6 GPH with high lift blades and slightly more with the super high lift blades. Some of the properties that I cut are on a biweekly or 10 day cycle so the extra power of the Generac is better for me that the 29 Kaw DFI that I demo'ed (same mower just different engine). The Kawasaki couldn't handle the thick, tall grass like the Generac could. I was just wondering if you had put both mowers in tough enough conditions to tell if the Generac seemed more powerful to you on your mowers?

kaferhaus
04-24-2009, 12:02 PM
We ran Exmarks for years and then demo'd just about everything and by "demo" I mean cut grass with it, not run it around the dealer's lot and cut a bit... we used them for a day of routine cutting.

We went with the Bobcats and now own 9 of them.

The OP, pretty much nailed the reasons. Cut quality was a wash with all of them no matter what you were cutting. Cutting speed was a wash.

The Bobcats, felt better, are lighter and in my opinion rode as well as anything else and they're shorter.

And we got a better price on buying 3 at a time from them than we did anyone else.

They've given us good service and all but three of them have well over 3,000 hours on them. All have Kawassaki engines.

Pennington Lawncare
04-24-2009, 12:53 PM
I just bought a new Predator Pro with the 33 Generac and it is definitely a cutting machine that leaves a very smooth finished cut but, mine is not striping very much at all.

I had seen some pictures of other Bob-Cat's stripes that were made without a striping kit and they looked great so I'm a little let down on the striping of my new mower.

I have already looked at the deck pitch or rather the blade pitch of mine and it's adjusted 1/8 " lower in the front so I don't know why mine doesn't leave as nice of a stripe as some other Bob-Cat's.

Would a higher lift blade make a difference? I've got the OEM 112111-03 blades. I'm needing to buy a spare set of blades right now so if anyone has a blade recommendation I'd be glad to hear it. Thanks much.

milo
04-24-2009, 04:12 PM
this is what i have been saying for years on here about scags and bobcats. 1 thing not pointed out is that the scag wildcat 61 inch 27hp is more like the bobcat not as heavy as turf tiger and smaller. i have ran or owned most all mowers made, and still the best overall would be hustler, very close behind scag, exmark, bobcat. next would be dixie chopper..
though if i had to choose between, scag wildcat, scag turf tiger and bobcat predator. my order would be wildcat, bobcat, turf tiger.

supercuts
04-24-2009, 07:36 PM
the only problem with the wildcat was it has smaller cc hydro pumps when i was looking, not sure if they still do, the bobcat is 16cc as are the turf tiger

tacoma200
04-25-2009, 08:46 AM
I've never been on a Bobcat (one of the few I haven't) but they seem to be very popular on the East coast, especially New Jersey. We have a large dealer here but they just don't sell. I haven't seen one mowing in my county. I guess different regions have a different preference. I see no reason to think they are not a good ZTR though.

milo
04-25-2009, 09:18 AM
yes i think the wildcat has smaller pumps but it is a great choice. i dont own a scag now. i do have my 28hp efi 61 inch bobcat.

Lawnut101
04-25-2009, 02:04 PM
That's a pretty good review. I know a lot of guys that use Scag, and they say they love them. Now I know an honest opinion.

supercuts
06-05-2009, 01:45 PM
now that ive had a "few" hours on the scag. not a bad machine, but i still like my bobcat more. trailer space, poor lines, and difficult height adjustments are my 3 biggest complaints. my bobcat is so easy to adjust the height on and also has a hand lift along with foot lift. much nicer. trailer space is so important to fit all the equiptment in a trailer and get it to the job. i havent measured but the scag noticably longer, so much so i go from having room to spare in my 18' trailer to scraping the door on it. lastly, my bobcat lays buetiful lines. last week i used the scag at my high end lawns. big mistate. a week later they still show each blade cut within each line pass of the machine. blades a sharpened and balanced every morning the same way.

supercuts
06-05-2009, 01:48 PM
a few pic of the mowers. the bobcats are much more difficult to keep clean. i think the velocity deck, how its angled out, keeps the deck cleaner, as well as the fenders over the rear. the blades on the bobcat are also twice as heavy as the scag

tacoma200
06-05-2009, 03:27 PM
a few pic of the mowers. the bobcats are much more difficult to keep clean. i think the velocity deck, how its angled out, keeps the deck cleaner, as well as the fenders over the rear. the blades on the bobcat are also twice as heavy as the scag

Thanks for you honest, seemingly unbiased reviews supercuts (supercuts and the rest of you). One of my good friends just bought two Bobcats (which are rare in this county) with the 37 Kawasaki's. We are talking constantly to see what differences we can tell about the machines. Both of us admit you go to one lot and they may cut great, go a few miles down the road in different conditions and it may be a different story. They cut a lot across the road a week ago when he first got it and it left several stringers then he came back the next week (he was the one running it this time) and it was a smooth cut with no stringers. No stripes either in our grass, which is very hard to stripe because of all the weeds. Neither ZTR stripes well around here in the low quality lots. One big difference is price. He got them for under 9K with a bagger (nobody bags here so I think he regrets that). The Turf Tiger is long and that helps me on large accounts with ride and ability to handle rough terrain but it hurts trying to follow contours, the Bobcat, Wildcat, or Lazer would do that better. We have such a variety of turf, terrain, and conditions here you really never know which would be best. He has owned Scag (old one), Grasshopper, Hustler, Exmark, etc and he chose the Bobcat on price, he hadn't even seen them. He seems to be happy and the cut seems to be on par with the Scag but yes they are shorter and lighter than the Turf Tiger, as someone said more closely resembles the aspects of a Wildcat. Good reviews on this thread. I appreciate them all.

Hustler does not cut well here because it isn't a very high lift deck but handles and rides better than any that I have owned. Lots of stringers from the XR7 deck in low quality turf, I got my money back on that one. In no way do I imply the Turf Tiger is the best ZTR, just the best for my current conditions which are often rough.

supercuts
06-05-2009, 05:44 PM
i should have said, conditions were thick turf cut at 4+". the scag does cut nice in weeds where lines arent as noticable. i simply dont like seeing blade lines within my deck lines. hope im explaining it good.

tacoma200
06-05-2009, 06:28 PM
i should have said, conditions were thick turf cut at 4+". the scag does cut nice in weeds where lines arent as noticable. i simply dont like seeing blade lines within my deck lines. hope im explaining it good.

I think you did a fine job reviewing them. I'm a thousand miles from you and I hadn't noticed much difference watching my friends Bobcat and mine cut (that doesn't mean it doesn't exist). Each lawn seems to have it's own characteristics here. I actually don't think the Velocity has been that popular of a deck for the North East, maybe because of some of the reasons you listed.

hornett22
06-05-2009, 08:24 PM
Bobcats have always been great machines.Textron almost ruined them.glad they are back under new ownership.great cut.i prefer Scags but Bobcat is up there in my book.i see new dealers popping up.our town actually bought their new riders.they cut the grass too short but it did leave a nice cut.now if Bunton could just get back to where they were.

marcuslawnguy
06-06-2009, 12:47 AM
around here I have saw only 2 bobcat units mowing but the lots were nice and looked pretty good overall. I think every company has a decent commercial line of mowers but versatility and buying a mower for your needs is the biggest thing. I'm a Scag fan but if I was a bagger I would not go Scag but would probaly go with bobcat or a cheaper mower. Not saying bobcat is less on quality but lets face it certain brands are more exspensive than others. scags baggers are just outrageously over priced but i would love to have one lol for overgrown lots and fall clean ups.

I would say here Scag, then deere, and gravely is the brands of choice. Just depend on the lco. But all 3 dealers are pretty good in their own way.

davis45
07-21-2009, 05:05 PM
Glad i found this thread. I'm trying to demo some bobcats before season is over. Anyone mind PM'ing me a price on what you paid for the 61" bobcats? I only have one dealer in reasonable distance so I dont want to get the shaft.

kaferhaus
07-21-2009, 05:21 PM
Knowing what someone else paid isn't going to keep you from "getting the shaft".... your dealer will either "deal" or he won't.

The dealer's "profit" on mower's depends on large part how many he sells..... the more units he's moving the better "deal" he gets from the dist or mfg. A high volume dealer has about a 20% margin on a ZTR, a low volume dealer may have only a 15-16% margin.

Some dealers "deal" and some won't. If you want a Bobcat and he won't deal I'd find one who will and go pick up the mower.

I've bought many ZTR's in the past from out of town dealers..... is a 100 mile round trip worth a grand or more?

It's funny how the out of town guys will give you a price over the phone IF you tell them you're from out of town and ARE GOING TO BUY X MOWER THIS WEEK and that the sale can be their's or someone else's.

As I said in a thread some months ago... a few years back my dealer and I had a "come to jesus" meeting over ZTR prices. I spend enough money in a year to keep some small "mom and pop" shops open and he was getting almost all of it (no he's not a small dealer but the point is the same) and he was trying to sell me new ZTR's at a whopping 5% off of MSRP.

At that time I wasn't on a fleet program with a mfg so I did some calling around and drove 75miles each way to pick up 5 new ZTRs at "cost + 5%". My dealer about crapped a brick when he found out about it and I didn't spend another nickel with him for 2yrs afterward. Nothing, zero, zip, nil, nada.

We're back on good terms now and I'm on a fleet program (not his doing, nor did he help...). I spend a little money with him on emergency stuff and some handhelds, but nothing like I once did. I buy from distributors and direct from a few mfgs on bulk items.

tacoma200
07-21-2009, 05:53 PM
9,000 was about what my friend payed for a 37 Kaw 60"cut Bobcat. He bought 2 to get that price.
Posted via Mobile Device

puppypaws
07-22-2009, 01:55 AM
the 29hp DFI seemed a bit less powerful then the 33hp generac. i really love the 33hp.



I just saw this and it jumped out at me. The 29 dfi should not be in the same sentence powerwise with the 33 Generac. I honestly can't come close to understanding the statement you made, "the 29 hp DFI seemed a bit less powerful than the 33 hp Generac." These engines are not even in the same world.

The 29 DFI is only a 745 cc engine with 44.3 lbs. of maximum torque and the 33 hp Generac is a 992 cc engine with 63+ lbs. of maximum torque.

The below quoted statement shows the 33 Generac being as powerful as Kohlers new 40 hp engine. The dynamometer does not lie, it separates the men from the boys.

QUOTE:

Generac Engine 33hp versus 40hp for Dixie Chopper mower

Kohler lists their CV1000 engine at 40hp Based on the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) J1940 Standard which is done with the Air Cleaner & Muffler Removed

Actual DYNO testing with the muffler & air cleaner installed on a 40hp Kohler produced 33+ hp

This Generac engine will produce the same to slightly more horsepower than the Kohler engine under the same test conditions
In other words they are basically the same when it comes to power output but the Generac engine has smaller exterior dimensions & is about 20lbs lighter

Even more important is engine torque

The Kohler Engine tested produced 61+LB FT of torque

The Generac engine tested produced 63+lb ft of torque

tacoma200
07-22-2009, 02:13 AM
a few pic of the mowers. the bobcats are much more difficult to keep clean. i think the velocity deck, how its angled out, keeps the deck cleaner, as well as the fenders over the rear. the blades on the bobcat are also twice as heavy as the scag

All Scag cutter blades are manufactured using a special blade material called Marbain™. Marbain cutter blades are lighter in weight than the typical steel used for cutter blades. A lighter weight cutter blade means the blades will start and stop quicker and produce less wear on the PTO clutch brake. Less horsepower is absorbed turning the lighter weight blades which provides more usable horsepower for cutting.

Marbain blades are also stronger and harder than typical blade steel which means they require sharpening less often and are more resistant to bending and impacts. That means less maintenance and cost for you!

Just thought I would throw that in, that's Scag's reasoning for using lighter blades.

kb9nvh
07-22-2009, 08:13 AM
My first thoughts on this would be that once the rotational inertia is overcome then it wouldn't take any more power to keep them spinning than regular heavy blades. Also, since more energy is stored in the heavier rotating blades it would overcome peak "short duration" loads easier than lighter blades.

Now, that said, the value of lighter blades, it seems, is when the loads are so great that the rpms slow down and the engine then has to work to do the cutting as well as try and put the energy back into the blades to get them back to speed.

I would have said #1 was correct except my experience with rotational inertia and bicycling tells me otherwise. I was a hugely better "hill climber" when I was on a bike with very low mass tires/rims so I'll bet that any mower with low mass blades will handle heavy mowing "continuous" loads way better.

my 2 cents :-)


All Scag cutter blades are manufactured using a special blade material called Marbain™. Marbain cutter blades are lighter in weight than the typical steel used for cutter blades. A lighter weight cutter blade means the blades will start and stop quicker and produce less wear on the PTO clutch brake. Less horsepower is absorbed turning the lighter weight blades which provides more usable horsepower for cutting.

Marbain blades are also stronger and harder than typical blade steel which means they require sharpening less often and are more resistant to bending and impacts. That means less maintenance and cost for you!

Just thought I would throw that in, that's Scag's reasoning for using lighter blades.

tacoma200
07-22-2009, 10:49 AM
My first thoughts on this would be that once the rotational inertia is overcome then it wouldn't take any more power to keep them spinning than regular heavy blades. Also, since more energy is stored in the heavier rotating blades it would overcome peak "short duration" loads easier than lighter blades.

Now, that said, the value of lighter blades, it seems, is when the loads are so great that the rpms slow down and the engine then has to work to do the cutting as well as try and put the energy back into the blades to get them back to speed.

I would have said #1 was correct except my experience with rotational inertia and bicycling tells me otherwise. I was a hugely better "hill climber" when I was on a bike with very low mass tires/rims so I'll bet that any mower with low mass blades will handle heavy mowing "continuous" loads way better.

my 2 cents :-)

Yes, I think the clutch wear part would be true. I can remember over the years many complaints about doubles (heavier) wearing clutches out. That was one reason they run them on Dixies before they had an electric clutch and it was manually engaged instead. I think Dixie has went to all electric clutches now but I'm not sure. Probably most clutch wear occurs by engaging at too high of an rpm of course.

It's been a very long time since I have heard of these complaints/debate so don't hold me too it. That's just to the best of my memory.

Lawnut101
07-22-2009, 11:10 AM
I recently demoed a Scag Wildcat. I was really impressed with it. It was practically the same machine as my Bobcat. I liked the new Velocity deck a lot better than the deck on my Bobcat. It could cut at a faster speed in wet and dry conditions, and I didn't even have to remove or raise the discharge chute. The ride was nicer, but my Bobcat is a 2006 model and the Scag was an 09. And the scag was probably about $3k more expensive than my Cat, which would be hard for me to justify the extra amount at this point in my business.

supercuts
07-22-2009, 03:57 PM
I just saw this and it jumped out at me. The 29 dfi should not be in the same sentence powerwise with the 33 Generac. I honestly can't come close to understanding the statement you made, "the 29 hp DFI seemed a bit less powerful than the 33 hp Generac." These engines are not even in the same world.

[/B]

looking at it from a practicle standpoint, i dont care what size they are, i care about performance. the 29 DFI has less power, period. the 29 kawi is quite a bit more powerful then my 25hp kawi. simply pointing out experiences with them for others without multiple machines. ive never looked at the info before that you've listed. what i do recal is the dealer telling me that their hp rating is a true rating unlike almost all other engines.

MileHigh
07-22-2009, 04:10 PM
I've heard numerous bad things about Scags and Exmarks.

But I've never heard one negative thing about a Bobcat Z.

Crazy.

tacoma200
07-22-2009, 04:26 PM
Some say the 29 Kaw is weak and it is compared to some engines. But it will get the job done. I know guys with 200 accounts using 27 Kohlers on Turf Tigers so it can be done. The dealer in Lexington has sold hundreds and it is the top seller so there are many that are satisfied with the power. I can't see buying 30+ hp machines for a fleet, maybe for an individual like myself.

Anyway its hard to compare Scag Turf Tigers to the Lazer or Bobcat. The Turf Tiger is really as I've said before almost industrial but does well on medium to large residential accounts. It's more like the Lazer XS with it's liquid cooled and diesel options. It's just a big mower. Really I think there is a gap in the Scag line up. The Lazer and Bobcat would fall in between the Turf Tiger and Wildcat, Scag doesn't really have a match. I guess they could beef up the Wildcat engine options, pumps, etc... The Turf Tiger is getting dated but it has been so successful I look to see it around for a long time. If I had smaller smoother lawns I would consider a shorter ZTR like the Lazer I was using. I think I mentioned in another post that I was in another town close by that has a bit nicer lawns and the Lazers outnumbered the Scags and Grasshoppers there. But here Scags and Grasshoppers are the main ZTR's with Dixies making a strong show. We have two Bobcats and you can spot them from the smoke coming out the exhaust unfortunately for my friend. No not a knock on Bobcat, maybe Kawasaki?

puppypaws
07-22-2009, 05:25 PM
looking at it from a practicle standpoint, i dont care what size they are, i care about performance. the 29 DFI has less power, period. the 29 kawi is quite a bit more powerful then my 25hp kawi. simply pointing out experiences with them for others without multiple machines. ive never looked at the info before that you've listed. what i do recal is the dealer telling me that their hp rating is a true rating unlike almost all other engines.

This is a 33 Generac on a Bobcat Predator Pro made and painted for Woods.
You can put a Kawasaki 29 DFI on the same mower in this grass and completely stall the engine with no problem. I never heard the 33 Generac change sounds, but was told by "TomberLawn" the rpms dropped a little in a couple of places where there was moisture in the grass. I watched the speed he was running in this jungle and could hardly believe what I was seeing.

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152057&stc=1&d=1245358359

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152060&stc=1&d=1245358806

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152063&stc=1&d=1245359012

Then we have a finished product. The 33 Generac is as strong (maybe stronger), than any engine on a zero turn mower. The big block Vanguards are right there with the Generac, the big block Kawasaki's don't seem to have as much, yet use a great deal more fuel.

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152219&stc=1&d=1245461854

tacoma200
07-22-2009, 05:38 PM
A lot of us at Lawnsite are a bit more power hungry than the average guy. Most people could get by with a lot less hp.

Yes I have to include myself in that group but I do have some heavy lots to take care of. I watched Lazers all over town (Campbellsville, not here) with small engines doing just fine taking a bit off the top. The larger LCO's use 22 hp diesels mostly and they do get the job done.

supercuts
07-24-2009, 07:51 AM
this thread was intended to be a simple comparison and in doing so its become about HP. i wasnt trying to make the argument over which you need or which is better, simply which had more power. as i shift into more of a managerial type position, ive been using my oldest bobcat mower with a 25kawi and 10cc pumps so the guys doing the giant and thick lawns have the raw power. my old mower is slow and underpowered for my taste, but it gets the job done. ive been using that since i have been doing half days so i can get other work done such as bookingkeeping, estimates, repairs, purchases, etc. as im looking towards the future, i know i dont need the extra power. i would consider the bobcat procat with a 25 kawi and 12cc pumps. but if the price is close ill most likely get another predator pro with the 33hp generac which i think has nearly the same fuel consumption as my 25 kawi. ive been very happy with it and on occasion do some field mowing like in some of the pics left. as im acquiring my "fleet" im constantly thinking of bottom line costs, profits, and practicality.

puppypaws
07-24-2009, 09:17 AM
as im acquiring my "fleet" im constantly thinking of bottom line costs, profits, and [B]practicality.

What you stated here is exacly what you had with the Predator Pro and 33 Generac. Its to bad people have a brain block about the name Generac and this caused Bobcat to stop using their engine, then went with the Kawasaki brand, for the better known name.

Generac engines do not sell very well in the mower world, yet can be sold and run generator sets day in and day out if need be, and people love them, figure that.

Now that Kawasaki's are in the lineup; of course the cost of the machine just went up. I've run the big block Generac, the big block Vanguard and the big block Kawasaki. The Kawasaki is more temperamental, uses far more fuel and does not have the raw responsive power of the Generac and Vanguard.

Kawasaki engines do not impress me like a large number of people. I was running a 25 Kawasaki on a 60" Hustler Super Z and stop mowing a section of grass next to my lake that had heavier growth when they pulled up with my new mower. This was the same 60" Super Z; but had the new 27 hp Kohler which Hustler had just began installing on their mowers. I went directly back to the very next pass in the same grass and could tell immediately the 27 was stronger. The 25 Kawasaki, was dropping rpms in the same grass the 27 Kohler did not, it was mowing with no sound change to the engine.

You will find the same difference with the big block Vanguard and Generac compared with the big block Kawasaki. You will not the governor operating a great deal more on the Kawi than the other two. It is really very hard to activate the governor on a Vanguard or Generac in comparison. This is the exact reason big block Kawasakis use considerably more fuel, every time you here the governor activate, the fuel is pouring into the engine. I've actually heard people say they felt the governors are set to sensitive on the big block Kawasaki engines.

The 33 Generac power Predator Pro was what I know to be one of the best of two mower buys on the market. There will be no more once they are gone fro the dealers with carryovers, (and more than likely are at this point in time). You will only see higher prices with the Predator Pro or any other mower in the market with a Kawasaki engine, you always pay more for the Kawasaki name. You will pay more for the name and not get a stronger more fuel efficient engine.

You will still buy more mower for the money with Bobcat (Woods also has the Predator Pro made in their color), than basically any other brand except Bad Boy.

Razorblades
07-24-2009, 10:35 AM
What you stated here is exacly what you had with the Predator Pro and 33 Generac. Its to bad people have a brain block about the name Generac and this caused Bobcat to stop using their engine, then went with the Kawasaki brand, for the better known name.

Generac engines do not sell very well in the mower world, yet can be sold and run generator sets day in and day out if need be, and people love them, figure that.

Now that Kawasaki's are in the lineup; of course the cost of the machine just went up. I've run the big block Generac, the big block Vanguard and the big block Kawasaki. The Kawasaki is more temperamental, uses far more fuel and does not have the raw responsive power of the Generac and Vanguard.

Kawasaki engines do not impress me like a large number of people. I was running a 25 Kawasaki on a 60" Hustler Super Z and stop mowing a section of grass next to my lake that had heavier growth when they pulled up with my new mower. This was the same 60" Super Z; but had the new 27 hp Kohler which Hustler had just began installing on their mowers. I went directly back to the very next pass in the same grass and could tell immediately the 27 was stronger. The 25 Kawasaki, was dropping rpms in the same grass the 27 Kohler did not, it was mowing with no sound change to the engine.

You will find the same difference with the big block Vanguard and Generac compared with the big block Kawasaki. You will not the governor operating a great deal more on the Kawi than the other two. It is really very hard to activate the governor on a Vanguard or Generac in comparison. This is the exact reason big block Kawasakis use considerably more fuel, every time you here the governor activate, the fuel is pouring into the engine. I've actually heard people say they felt the governors are set to sensitive on the big block Kawasaki engines.

The 33 Generac power Predator Pro was what I know to be one of the best of two mower buys on the market. There will be no more once they are gone fro the dealers with carryovers, (and more than likely are at this point in time). You will only see higher prices with the Predator Pro or any other mower in the market with a Kawasaki engine, you always pay more for the Kawasaki name. You will pay more for the name and not get a stronger more fuel efficient engine.

You will still buy more mower for the money with Bobcat (Woods also has the Predator Pro made in their color), than basically any other brand except Bad Boy.

I think that the Bobcat Predator Pro with the 33 Generac is one of the best values out there right now. While the Scag probably has a better resale value, you do have to pay alot more for a comparably powered Scag up front.

It's kind of sad to me the way that the smaller, lesser known companies Like Generac has trouble shaking a reputation for unreliable, gas hog engines. I have heard from serveral mechanics(who are certified ASE Master Mecanics that are certified on the Kawi's, Kohlers, Vanguards and Generac's and they claim that the Generac is at the top of the list, as far as design and build quality goes. I know that they had some issues with some of their older models quite a few years ago but they got those issues resolved and have no more reliability issues than any of the other brands now, but because of that past history, alot of people think that they never corrected any of the former problems.

I've read numerous threads where a Kawasaki or Kohler engine has prematurely failed for various reasons, other than lack of maintenance but it doesn't seem to worry any of the people that are looking at the engine of choice on their next mower purchase. All they know is that they don't want one of those "self exploding Generac" engines that they heard about 5-10 years ago. Go figure.

FastMan
07-24-2009, 11:50 AM
Got a call yesterday from a local bobcat dealer. "We have a 33hp predator for you to demo." I'll post my impressions of it after I take it for a spin.

puppypaws
07-24-2009, 05:14 PM
Got a call yesterday from a local bobcat dealer. "We have a 33hp predator for you to demo." I'll post my impressions of it after I take it for a spin.

Unless something is wrong with the engine or mower (and I doubt it), you will be extremely impressed. If this mower and engine follows suit, it should crank as well as any mower you have owned or operated, along with showing exceptional power.

I wish you would check the speed while using it for your demo. This is supposedly a 13.5 mph mower with the 33 Generac. If you don't have access to a GPS, measure off 200' and get a good time to cover the distance at top speed.

FastMan
07-24-2009, 08:08 PM
I wish you would check the speed while using it for your demo. This is supposedly a 13.5 mph mower with the 33 Generac. If you don't have access to a GPS, measure off 200' and get a good time to cover the distance at top speed.


Will do, Puppy.

puppypaws
07-24-2009, 09:16 PM
Will do, Puppy.

Thank you!

supercuts
07-25-2009, 12:57 PM
out of couriosity, what has everyone been getting on a price of a 33hp generac predator pro? my first was $9999 when they came out, my dealer gave me a price of 9400 and another dealer came in at $8400. im affraid to cut my dealer from the loop because of how well im taken care of when things break....they stop what they are doing and fix my machines. doesnt get any better than that

Pennington Lawncare
07-26-2009, 09:27 AM
$7,000 out the door. In all fairness that deal was made for a leftover 08 but, when I got there I could see that it was a new 09 model which had a few small new features. That dealer sells on Ebay all the time and they have pallets of new mowers sitting around their relatively small dealership. They typically uncrate what they are selling and once that one is sold they uncrate another. That's the Bob-Cat's anyway. Their showroom is full of Hustler and other models but, at that time they only had the one Predator Pro and it was back in their service area waiting on me to come pick it up.

tacoma200
07-26-2009, 12:08 PM
$7,000 out the door. In all fairness that deal was made for a leftover 08 but, when I got there I could see that it was a new 09 model which had a few small new features. That dealer sells on Ebay all the time and they have pallets of new mowers sitting around their relatively small dealership. They typically uncrate what they are selling and once that one is sold they uncrate another. That's the Bob-Cat's anyway. Their showroom is full of Hustler and other models but, at that time they only had the one Predator Pro and it was back in their service area waiting on me to come pick it up.

That's a steal! Good for you, really.

puppypaws
07-26-2009, 01:24 PM
That's a steal! Good for you, really.

That is such a steal, it almost sounds illegal! :confused:

supercuts
08-13-2009, 06:26 PM
well now that i have put a few hundred hours on the scag, i thought id give my updated opinion. its grown on me. i like that the seat height is low. it does throw grass better than i had thought, it came with a bagging system and it had the bracket on it that blocks a good part of side discharge. it still has the one inside along the front that has a "shelf" that wet grass gets stuck on. so, it cuts wet grass good. some things like hills are equal but different. the scag seems to hold slightly better sideways but weighs so much more than my bobcat it almost gets stuck too easily and just spins the tires much more than the bobcats. its still too long for uneven lawns and doesnt hold the contore like the bobcat. it is comfortable. ive gotten used to the levers. it seems to tear lawns up more in turning from the weight, the bobcat from lack of traction. so thats equal as well. the lines arent quite as good as the bobcat, enough to call it noticably worse.

latest opinion. good machine. like all it has its pros and cons. if i didnt need to trailer it, id be very happy with it. but since it takes up valuable extra trailer space over the bobcat, id buy another bobcat over scag. the bobcat does cut better.

puppypaws
08-13-2009, 06:47 PM
well now that i have put a few hundred hours on the scag, i thought id give my updated opinion. its grown on me. i like that the seat height is low. it does throw grass better than i had thought, it came with a bagging system and it had the bracket on it that blocks a good part of side discharge. it still has the one inside along the front that has a "shelf" that wet grass gets stuck on. so, it cuts wet grass good. some things like hills are equal but different. the scag seems to hold slightly better sideways but weighs so much more than my bobcat it almost gets stuck too easily and just spins the tires much more than the bobcats. its still too long for uneven lawns and doesnt hold the contore like the bobcat. it is comfortable. ive gotten used to the levers. it seems to tear lawns up more in turning from the weight, the bobcat from lack of traction. so thats equal as well. the lines arent quite as good as the bobcat, enough to call it noticably worse.

latest opinion. good machine. like all it has its pros and cons. if i didnt need to trailer it, id be very happy with it. but since it takes up valuable extra trailer space over the bobcat, id buy another bobcat over scag. the bobcat does cut better.

Interesting, give us the reason you believe Bobcat cuts better. When you say better, do you mean a more refined cut; from chopping the clippings into smaller pieces enabling them to disappear easier. I don't believe you are saying a Bobcat will cut larger, or wet grass better than the Scag TT Velocity deck with its 18" wide discharge opening, are you?

supercuts
08-18-2009, 05:05 PM
the bobcat lays better lines then the scag. the actual quality of the cut is roughly the same including chopping of clippings. the scag seems to leave an ugly line in many conditions where the bobcat lays a nice clean looking line. the 18" opening is nice and spreads grass well. the bobcat isnt far behind.

pugs
08-18-2009, 06:47 PM
Knowing what someone else paid isn't going to keep you from "getting the shaft".... your dealer will either "deal" or he won't.

The dealer's "profit" on mower's depends on large part how many he sells..... the more units he's moving the better "deal" he gets from the dist or mfg. A high volume dealer has about a 20% margin on a ZTR, a low volume dealer may have only a 15-16% margin.

Some dealers "deal" and some won't. If you want a Bobcat and he won't deal I'd find one who will and go pick up the mower.

I've bought many ZTR's in the past from out of town dealers..... is a 100 mile round trip worth a grand or more?

It's funny how the out of town guys will give you a price over the phone IF you tell them you're from out of town and ARE GOING TO BUY X MOWER THIS WEEK and that the sale can be their's or someone else's.

As I said in a thread some months ago... a few years back my dealer and I had a "come to jesus" meeting over ZTR prices. I spend enough money in a year to keep some small "mom and pop" shops open and he was getting almost all of it (no he's not a small dealer but the point is the same) and he was trying to sell me new ZTR's at a whopping 5% off of MSRP.

At that time I wasn't on a fleet program with a mfg so I did some calling around and drove 75miles each way to pick up 5 new ZTRs at "cost + 5%". My dealer about crapped a brick when he found out about it and I didn't spend another nickel with him for 2yrs afterward. Nothing, zero, zip, nil, nada.

We're back on good terms now and I'm on a fleet program (not his doing, nor did he help...). I spend a little money with him on emergency stuff and some handhelds, but nothing like I once did. I buy from distributors and direct from a few mfgs on bulk items.

Doesnt make alot of sense to me. Buying 5 ZTR's with anyone would probaby qualify for fleet pricing. For Bobcat I believe you need to buy 10 pts and ZTR's are 3 pts each.


All I will say with Generac....have fun when you need parts. We have given up on them. Generators that come in with their engines stay right on your truck. Have yet to see a Bobcat with one, and hopefully never will. Stick to Kawasaki or Kohler or anyone but Generac.

Other than that, Bobcats are tough to beat.

supercuts
08-18-2009, 07:29 PM
Doesnt make alot of sense to me. Buying 5 ZTR's with anyone would probaby qualify for fleet pricing. For Bobcat I believe you need to buy 10 pts and ZTR's are 3 pts each.


All I will say with Generac....have fun when you need parts. We have given up on them. Generators that come in with their engines stay right on your truck. Have yet to see a Bobcat with one, and hopefully never will. Stick to Kawasaki or Kohler or anyone but Generac.

Other than that, Bobcats are tough to beat.

ive had good luck we parts. i have had a few issues, originally the carb. they were more then willing to send whatever it took. had a relay or similar part go twice, swapped it out, no question quick. ive seen 2 blow engines, one was engines fault, one, lack of maintance, fixed quick. all generac. i love mine. im tired of kawi's and thats all i ever ran

Razorblades
08-18-2009, 10:03 PM
Doesnt make alot of sense to me. Buying 5 ZTR's with anyone would probaby qualify for fleet pricing. For Bobcat I believe you need to buy 10 pts and ZTR's are 3 pts each.


All I will say with Generac....have fun when you need parts. We have given up on them. Generators that come in with their engines stay right on your truck. Have yet to see a Bobcat with one, and hopefully never will. Stick to Kawasaki or Kohler or anyone but Generac.

Other than that, Bobcats are tough to beat.

A month or so ago, I tried out a Bobcat Predator Pro with the 33 Generac and also an EverRide Warrior with the 25 Kawasaki. both mowers had 60/61" decks. I saw pros and cons for both mowers and liked both mowers, although I would have leaned toward the EverRide because of its superior cut on the tall Bahia and other junk grass/weeds, which is the majority of what I seem to cut.

Razorblades
08-18-2009, 10:26 PM
Doesnt make alot of sense to me. Buying 5 ZTR's with anyone would probaby qualify for fleet pricing. For Bobcat I believe you need to buy 10 pts and ZTR's are 3 pts each.


All I will say with Generac....have fun when you need parts. We have given up on them. Generators that come in with their engines stay right on your truck. Have yet to see a Bobcat with one, and hopefully never will. Stick to Kawasaki or Kohler or anyone but Generac.

Other than that, Bobcats are tough to beat.

The dealer where I tried out the Bobcat and EverRide told me that he prefers the Generac's and Kawasaki's. He doesn't like the Kohler engines and has had trouble with Kohler and warranty issues. I guess that dealers and users have better relationships with some brands and have had their issues with other brands.

pugs
08-19-2009, 10:22 AM
Well we got setup to get parts and do service work on Generac engines when Bobcat first started using them just in case one were to come through the door. About 2 years later they send out a letter saying Hey if you havent gotten setup with Generac you should...yada yada. So I wanna see if we need to change anything or if we are ok as is. I call Generac. I talk to 7 different people there before I find one that even knows WTF I am talking about.

I dont even think our distributor stocks any machines with Generacs anymore. I wanna say they are listed as special order only in the price list. They were all hyping them up when they first started using them....so there must be some reason for it.

I know people are fairly happy with them on here, but I would never want to sell one to anyone if I could avoid it.

puppypaws
08-19-2009, 02:24 PM
Well we got setup to get parts and do service work on Generac engines when Bobcat first started using them just in case one were to come through the door. About 2 years later they send out a letter saying Hey if you havent gotten setup with Generac you should...yada yada. So I wanna see if we need to change anything or if we are ok as is. I call Generac. I talk to 7 different people there before I find one that even knows WTF I am talking about.

I dont even think our distributor stocks any machines with Generacs anymore. I wanna say they are listed as special order only in the price list. They were all hyping them up when they first started using them....so there must be some reason for it.

I know people are fairly happy with them on here, but I would never want to sell one to anyone if I could avoid it.

Bobcat no longer uses the Generac engine in there mower line. They are great engines, but people have a mental block about the name, the same as they always have with B&S. Bobcat is using the Kawasaki engine in place of the Generac, it is a mind game, people buy the Kawasaki name. I've run Generacs, Vanguards, and Kawasakis, all big block, the Kawasaki uses much more fuel and seems less powerful than the Generac or Vanguard.

supercuts
08-19-2009, 07:23 PM
Bobcat no longer uses the Generac engine in there mower line. They are great engines, but people have a mental block about the name, the same as they always have with B&S. Bobcat is using the Kawasaki engine in place of the Generac, it is a mind game, people buy the Kawasaki name. I've run Generacs, Vanguards, and Kawasakis, all big block, the Kawasaki uses much more fuel and seems less powerful than the Generac or Vanguard.

that is sad....i dont want the kawi anymore.