Kohler CV14 needs carb?How to replace question.

[aVOLanche]

I have an Exmark Viking hydro with a Kohler CV14T Command Pro engine and I think a new carburetor is needed.

The Exmark dealer that I took it to is an idiot!The carb was dumping some gas out the exhaust when starting(float/needle valve was going bad).The mower ran great.I considered just using the on/off fuel stop and forgetting about it,but I took it in for service.He put in a "kit" but had problems getting it to work properly,so kept it for 3 weeks!

I picked it up and it runs OK,but is surging when the blades aren't engaged.So I think I'll get a new Walbro carb for $80.

My question is this:will the carb likely just bolt on and run fine?I can get an identical carb(12-853-139-S) to the original,so the linkage should be perfect.Any advice on doing this?Thanks!!!

[Restrorob]

If you get a exact replacement carb it will be a bolt on deal.

Will it fix the problem..... Can't tell ya, There's no telling what the idiot has done to this unit.

Did you or him change the oil ? If fuel came out of the muffler there's a chance some got into the crankcase/oil.

[ricky86]

Surging on that engine, while in a no load condition is not that uncommon. Many don't, some do. I would not replace the carb because of it, unless it was severe or it was surging under load. Sometimes they are running at a transition point between low speed circuit and high speed circuit (while at no load), or the gov sensitivity is off a touch.

[aVOLanche]

Surging on that engine, while in a no load condition is not that uncommon. Many don't, some do. I would not replace the carb because of it, unless it was severe or it was surging under load. Sometimes they are running at a transition point between low speed circuit and high speed circuit (while at no load), or the gov sensitivity is off a touch.

Would it be worth trying to adjust the carb(I have the service manual for the engine,but the carb section is confusing).I guess I could note the "starting point" and make an adjustment,then go back if it doesn't help.Thanks!

[aVOLanche]

If you get a exact replacement carb it will be a bolt on deal.

Will it fix the problem..... Can't tell ya, There's no telling what the idiot has done to this unit.

Did you or him change the oil ? If fuel came out of the muffler there's a chance some got into the crankcase/oil.

Rob,I checked the oil and it had been changed(ticket said it was done,but I double-checked).I'd assume a new carb would help.At least the needle valve would seat properly,which I'm still not sure he fixed.Since the surging is a new phenomenom,I'd also guess that proper linkage adjustment would fix that.I'm gonna run it more when it stops raining,here....and hopefully the surging won't be a problem.It seems to run perfectly at speed with the blades engaged.......so,as long as the surging does no harm,I may let it ride.

[Restrorob]

so,as long as the surging does no harm,I may let it ride.


Just remember,

Prolonged surging causes premature wear on the carb throttle shaft, governor shaft and linkage......

[ed2hess]

Those replacement carb are much to write home about. They leak after a while also. I had two replacement units that leaked and new needle didn't help. Put on replacements and they lasted less than a year. We now use the gas turn off after each job.

[ricky86]

Yes you could. Again if it is surging at high idle, I wouldn't worry about it, unless it's severe. If it surges at idle, adjustment will help, if there is an adjustment. It might be a fixed jet. It should not leak, period.

[aVOLanche]

Those replacement carb are much to write home about. They leak after a while also. I had two replacement units that leaked and new needle didn't help. Put on replacements and they lasted less than a year. We now use the gas turn off after each job.

Ed...Were the replacement carbs OEM that leaked?I've already decided to turn the gas off between uses...period!



Yes you could. Again if it is surging at high idle, I wouldn't worry about it, unless it's severe. If it surges at idle, adjustment will help, if there is an adjustment. It might be a fixed jet. It should not leak, period. Ricky86...... When you say "high idle" do you mean "fast" without having blades engaged?If that's the case,that's where the surge is happening.

[topsites]

I also don't think you need a new carb, first it could be a dirty air filter, or a 'leaking' rubber pcv tube.
I have had more problems with engines due to that stupid rubber tube having crack(s) or breaks in it,
they're not cheap which is why I don't replace them much, but that's one of the first things to check.

If that doesn't fix it, there's only like 1-2 screws and it does take some time but I've adjusted carbs on Kohlers before...
So then this helps:
Starting at page 12: http://www.asberry.net/files/12+590+01.pdf
Specifically you're likely looking at the rich/lean thing, and it may not fix the problem but it only takes a few minutes.

And while you're into it, might as well clean up all the linkages and all that external crap all around the carburetor real good.
It should run good, just needs some attention, maybe plop a Champion RJ-12YC in there as well (gap 030).

[ricky86]

Yes. High idle means high speed, no load. When confronted with this issue at work, I will give the customer his options. Most agree, leave it alone. How often does your engine run in that mode anyway? Oh, I am a Kohler certified, so I know a small amount about their engines and running characteristics (if that will put your mind at ease a little). If it still leaks, after repair , replace it.

[aVOLanche]

I also don't think you need a new carb, first it could be a dirty air filter, or a 'leaking' rubber pcv tube.
I have had more problems with engines due to that stupid rubber tube having crack(s) or breaks in it,
they're not cheap which is why I don't replace them much, but that's one of the first things to check.

If that doesn't fix it, there's only like 1-2 screws and it does take some time but I've adjusted carbs on Kohlers before...
So then this helps:
Starting at page 12: http://www.asberry.net/files/12+590+01.pdf
Specifically you're likely looking at the rich/lean thing, and it may not fix the problem but it only takes a few minutes.

And while you're into it, might as well clean up all the linkages and all that external crap all around the carburetor real good.
It should run good, just needs some attention, maybe plop a Champion RJ-12YC in there as well (gap 030).I have a new air filter,sparkplug and the PVC is fine.So I'll try the adjustment on the rich/lean idle screw.Thanks!

[aVOLanche]

Yes. High idle means high speed, no load. When confronted with this issue at work, I will give the customer his options. Most agree, leave it alone. How often does your engine run in that mode anyway? Oh, I am a Kohler certified, so I know a small amount about their engines and running characteristics (if that will put your mind at ease a little). If it still leaks, after repair , replace it.When you said "if it still leaks" do you mean blowing gas through the muffler?It's never leaked any other way and that seems OK since the service.The only thing right now is the surging.
I'll probably try the adjustments in the service manual,one at a time so I can return to the original setting.If that doesn't help,I'll do as you suggest and let it go.As you said,it's rarely in high idle for more than a few seconds at a time.

The manual says the main jet is not adjustable and there is a low idle speed screw and a low idle fuel needle(rich/lean).Other than that it looks like the governor would be the likely culprit.Guess I'll try to undo what the Exmark guy did one adjustment at a time.

BTW,my manual says that the seat for the needle valve is pressed into the body and not removable.The dealer said he installed a kit with a new seat.Does that make sense?Is it a seat that sits atop the old one with a shortened needle-valve?
Thanks to you guys for your advice!

[ricky86]

It leaks out the muffler because the muffler is lower than the fuel supply. Gravity. There is only mixture adjustment. That is idle. Newer carbs don't even have that. It is a fixed idle circuit. Let it sit overnight. In the morning, remove the a/f. If there is gas in the a/f housing the carb is leaking. Assuming the fuel filter is ok, and it isn't caused by dirt. As for the inlet needle. There are in fact 2 styles. One, the seat is brass with the needle being a viton tip. The other is a viton seat and a steel needle. If it still leaking, check back with the dealer. If they are competent, they will work with you. Maybe you pay for the part and they install it free.

[aVOLanche]

It leaks out the muffler because the muffler is lower than the fuel supply. Gravity. There is only mixture adjustment. That is idle. Newer carbs don't even have that. It is a fixed idle circuit. Let it sit overnight. In the morning, remove the a/f. If there is gas in the a/f housing the carb is leaking. Assuming the fuel filter is ok, and it isn't caused by dirt. As for the inlet needle. There are in fact 2 styles. One, the seat is brass with the needle being a viton tip. The other is a viton seat and a steel needle. If it still leaking, check back with the dealer. If they are competent, they will work with you. Maybe you pay for the part and they install it free.

The gas is not leaking since the dealer worked on it.I let it sit 2 days with no leak.The Walbro carb is a 12-853-20 and has a brass seat,which the manual says cannot be replaced.This is a qoute from the manual:"Fuel Inlet Seat Removal
The fuel inlet seat is pressed into the carburetor body,
do not attempt to remove it. If necessary, clean it in
place with aerosol carburetor cleaner"......But the dealer says they installed a carb repair kit 12-757-01-S(at least I was charged for it) which had 2 different needle valves, a seat,and gaskets as per the Kohler site...Go figure.

I really hate to remove the needle valve just to see what they did,but I might(afraid it won't work as well as it is now if I fool with it).Such is life!

[ricky86]

Manuals do not get updated enough. both styles are used regardless of the manual states. It's working correctly, what is the problem?

[aVOLanche]

Manuals do not get updated enough. both styles are used regardless of the manual states. It's working correctly, what is the problem?

Gotcha.....I'll just try minor adjustments and go on.Thanks for your help!

[Restrorob]

the dealer says they installed a carb repair kit 12-757-01-S(at least I was charged for it) which had 2 different needle valves, a seat,and gaskets as per the Kohler site.


The "seat" that comes in the above repair kit is not brass, It's viton rubber.

There are two different style carbs, One has a brass press-in seat and the other is just a hole machined in the aluminum carb body.

They put two needle valves (one steel tipped and one viton rubber tipped) in the repair kit because it's cheaper than supplying two different repair kits.

The brass press-in seat carb takes the viton tipped needle ONLY but the machined aluminum carb requires the viton rubber "seat" to be installed.

The circled item is the viton rubber seat;

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m314/Restrorob/Kohler/CV15FloatValve.jpg


ricky,

Just for the record..... I've been spinning wrenches 31 yrs. in which 19 of those being Kohler certified, I give customers NO options. They bring in a unit for repair it leaves functioning properly, If they don't want it repaired properly I tell them to take it to a hack......

[aVOLanche]

The "seat" that comes in the above repair kit is not brass, It's viton rubber.

There are two different style carbs, One has a brass press-in seat and the other is just a hole machined in the aluminum carb body.

They put two needle valves (one steel tipped and one viton rubber tipped) in the repair kit because it's cheaper than supplying two different repair kits.

The brass press-in seat carb takes the viton tipped needle ONLY but the machined aluminum carb requires the viton rubber "seat" to be installed.

The circled item is the viton rubber seat;

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m314/Restrorob/Kohler/CV15FloatValve.jpg


ricky,

Just for the record..... I've been spinning wrenches 31 yrs. in which 19 of those being Kohler certified, I give customers NO options. They bring in a unit for repair it leaves functioning properly, If they don't want it repaired properly I tell them to take it to a hack......
That makes sense!What I don't understand is why the tech touched anything other than the needle valve/valve seat/float assembly.The mower ran perfectly when I took it in.There was gas in the oil and gas spit out the muffler when I started the mower.He said a piece of dirt must have worn a groove in the brass seat.Seemed like an easy enough diagnosis and a problem that could either be fixed with work on the needle valve/seat or not.Am I wrong in this assessment?

For an Exmark dealer to keep the mower for 3 weeks and send it back not running properly is inexcusable to me.I TOTALLY agree with what you said about "no options" to the customer.I'll not use this dealer again.Thanks!

[ricky86]

ricky,

Just for the record..... I've been spinning wrenches 31 yrs. in which 19 of those being Kohler certified, I give customers NO options. They bring in a unit for repair it leaves functioning properly, If they don't want it repaired properly I tell them to take it to a hack......
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In all your vast 31 years experiance, you never heard a CV/CH surge at high idle even when new out of the crate?

[Restrorob]

In all your vast 31 years experiance, you never heard a CV/CH surge at high idle even when new out of the crate?


Dude,

Can you name one engine manufacturer that intensionally builds a engine that surges ?

If a engine surges there is a reason for it and is not the way it was intended to run. It's a real "Service Technicians" job to locate the reason why and repair it so it functions as the OEM intended. It makes no difference whether it's brand new out of the box or 20 yrs. old, The idea is to repair and not let it continue.

[ricky86]

You seem very defensive. Nobody is challenging your reign as head advice giver. Just accept the fact that there are other people that use this site that have knowledge and experience in the field. Some, probably more than you. And in your zeal to prove other people wrong, the cause of the surge at high idle (that was explained in simple terms) was ignored by you, and would not, in most cases be considered a warranty situation. Don't start a war. O.K."Dude"