New Bobcat M-series CTL's and M-series Skidsteer pics

[bobcat_ron]

What's up with the picture I saw in Worksaver of a reman'ed engine from Bobcat called the "Duracore", it looked like a grey painted Kubota engine?

[WillieWonka1850]

What's up with the picture I saw in Worksaver of a reman'ed engine from Bobcat called the "Duracore", it looked like a grey painted Kubota engine?
At least CASE is smart and uses CUMMINS!!!

[Skidsteerman]

Apparently, the engines are Kubota (at least for the time being).

http://www.constructionequipment.com/article/CA6666990.html

The article claims that the machines have 74 gross horsepower... peak torque might be awesome, but this seems really low (69 hp on a 2,500 pound ROC machine? At 8000+ pounds?).

Seems about right to me - JD 325, 2500 ROC, 8,390 lbs 76 gross HP.

[Skidsteerman]

At least CASE is smart and uses CUMMINS!!!

Case is not using Cummins in all their units - some models are using the same engine NH uses which is not a NH engine - are at least did.

Meh, At least Deere is smart and uses their own designed and built engine. Cat can't even clam that as they just went out and purchased Perkins to get a small power plant line.

:Simleystirringthepot:

[ksss]

Case is not using Cummins in all their units - some models are using the same engine NH uses which is not a NH engine - are at least did.

Meh, At least Deere is smart and uses their own designed and built engine. Cat can't even clam that as they just went out and purchased Perkins to get a small power plant line.

:Simleystirringthepot:


The 400 series uses the Iveco motor, sweet powerplant. Doesn't sound as throaty as the Cummins did, but the recover time is faster. I was not happy when the 3.9 went away but Cummins has a hand in the new motor as well. I have been real happy with the 4.5 No doubt it makes power.

Too bad Deere couldn't find some displacement, 186 cubes in a 5 cylinder? Did they get that out of a lawn tractor? :laugh:

Still stirring.:waving:

[Skidsteerman]

The 400 series uses the Iveco motor, sweet powerplant. Doesn't sound as throaty as the Cummins did, but the recover time is faster. I was not happy when the 3.9 went away but Cummins has a hand in the new motor as well. I have been real happy with the 4.5 No doubt it makes power.

Too bad Deere couldn't find some displacement, 186 cubes in a 5 cylinder? Did they get that out of a lawn tractor? :laugh:

Still stirring.:waving:

Mercedes :laugh:

Five cylinder designs have been around a very long time, just not too much in north America.

Funny thing is, you may think it doesn't have any power curve but the CT332 puts a shame to larger HP 4 cylinder engines in competitive CTL's. Nothing like burning more fuel to do less work then the Deere :laugh:

Easy to sell more HP and it's even easier for me to prove against it, specially when fuel cost get soo high. Kind of like the Bobcat line of compact excavators, usually 10 HP more then a Deere but Bobcat higher HP can't out preform them. It's about hydraulics and how efficient it's design is. All the engine does is turn several pumps.

Happens all the time for me - took a Deere CT332 out to a customer whom owns a fleet of Bobcats - mostly T300's and a T320. their long time operator was very impressed with the Deere's performance over the T320 - A 10+ HP higher unit then Deere. Deere out pushed and out carried... well... is out preforming the Bobcat's on site. They see this as a $$$ savings being more productive throughout the day and burning less fuel in the process.

BTW, Deere does not MFG their own lawn mower engines, never have, who does besides Honda?

Anywho, good luck with that new Doesan - Deawoo eer Bobcat line.

:Stir Stir Stir:

[Junior M]

Mercedes :laugh:

Five cylinder designs have been around a very long time, just not too much in north America.

Funny thing is, you may think it doesn't have any power curve but the CT332 puts a shame to larger HP 4 cylinder engines in competitive CTL's. Nothing like burning more fuel to do less work then the Deere :laugh:

Easy to sell more HP and it's even easier for me to prove against it, specially when fuel cost get soo high. Kind of like the Bobcat line of compact excavators, usually 10 HP more then a Deere but Bobcat higher HP can't out preform them. It's about hydraulics and how efficient it's design is. All the engine does is turn several pumps.

Happens all the time for me - took a Deere CT332 out to a customer whom owns a fleet of Bobcats - mostly T300's and a T320. their long time operator was very impressed with the Deere's performance over the T320 - A 10+ HP higher unit then Deere. Deere out pushed and out carried... well... is out preforming the Bobcat's on site. They see this as a $$$ savings being more productive throughout the day and burning less fuel in the process.

BTW, Deere does not MFG their own lawn mower engines, never have, who does besides Honda?

Anywho, good luck with that new Doesan - Deawoo eer Bobcat line.

:Stir Stir Stir:
It may outperform but only if you can get in and out of that tiny ass cab.. :walking: :laugh:

[dogsluvtrux]

What's up with the picture I saw in Worksaver of a reman'ed engine from Bobcat called the "Duracore", it looked like a grey painted Kubota engine?

Hey guys, just my 2 cents....

"Duracore" is the reman company that Bobcat uses, not a brand. It's a Kubota engine, Delco or Nippendeso starters, etc.

I have been in the M-Series machine and run them at a training seminar in Indy, and once you get past the looks (it takes awhile...it helps to close our eyes and feel your way into the machine...) these are impressive machines. Visibility is great, easily surpassing everything on the market, the cab has been moved forward 4 inches, but over all length has not increased...and the excavators are awesome! Bobcat has been lagging behind in technology and leading in price on the mini ex's for awhile, but the E32 and E35 are game-changers. Granted, I'm a Bobcat guy, and admittedly biased...

[Tigerotor77W]

Rantoul, eh? I'm just a hop and a skip over -- Urbana!

[Skidsteerman]

Visibility is great, easily surpassing everything on the market, the cab has been moved forward 4 inches, but over all length has not increased...

Improved what visibility? It seems like the rear would be worse by moving the cab forward - how can that improve rear visibility? How does this new unit "surpass" everything else on the market? I mean really, everything else on the market running window blinds or what?

So, what about the engine placement? Still running a sideways mounted engine with the windup rubber band drive system or did they finally go to direct drive setup?

[dogsluvtrux]

Go sit in one of the machines and you'll see what I mean. Visiblity is great all the way around!

As far as the rubberband drive...if you mean mounting the engine sideways and using a drive belt to drive the pumps, which allows better access to service the engine, and allows Bobcat to spin the pumps faster than the engine rpm, giving full hydraulic flow at ~65% of rpm so that functions needing constant hydraulic function ie trenching, planing, running a rotary cutter can be done at a lower rpm, saving fuel, wear and tear on the engine, and lowering outside noise levels, oh lets not forget has a lower instance of failure than the plactic frisbee couplers used by the rest of the market, and instead of pulling the engine and pumps to replace the coupling, being down for two days, can be replaced in the field having you up and running a couple of hours rubberband...than yeah, Bobcat still does that. I don't know why though....:waving:

[AWJ Services]

Hey guys, just my 2 cents....

"Duracore" is the reman company that Bobcat uses, not a brand. It's a Kubota engine, Delco or Nippendeso starters, etc.

I have been in the M-Series machine and run them at a training seminar in Indy, and once you get past the looks (it takes awhile...it helps to close our eyes and feel your way into the machine...) these are impressive machines. Visibility is great, easily surpassing everything on the market, the cab has been moved forward 4 inches, but over all length has not increased...and the excavators are awesome! Bobcat has been lagging behind in technology and leading in price on the mini ex's for awhile, but the E32 and E35 are game-changers. Granted, I'm a Bobcat guy, and admittedly biased...

Are You KSSS's evil long lost Bobcat brother?

[bobcat_ron]

Go sit in one of the machines and you'll see what I mean. Visiblity is great all the way around!

As far as the rubberband drive...if you mean mounting the engine sideways and using a drive belt to drive the pumps, which allows better access to service the engine, and allows Bobcat to spin the pumps faster than the engine rpm, giving full hydraulic flow at ~65% of rpm so that functions needing constant hydraulic function ie trenching, planing, running a rotary cutter can be done at a lower rpm, saving fuel, wear and tear on the engine, and lowering outside noise levels, oh lets not forget has a lower instance of failure than the plactic frisbee couplers used by the rest of the market, and instead of pulling the engine and pumps to replace the coupling, being down for two days, can be replaced in the field having you up and running a couple of hours rubberband...than yeah, Bobcat still does that. I don't know why though....:waving:


Good burn, but everyone else is using piston pumps for the drive motors, something Bobcat's rubber band drive system can't be used on.

[ksss]

Are You KSSS's evil long lost Bobcat brother?



Ha, thats funny.:laugh:

[Skidsteerman]

As far as the rubberband drive...if you mean mounting the engine sideways and using a drive belt to drive the pumps, which allows better access to service the engine, and allows Bobcat to spin the pumps faster than the engine rpm, giving full hydraulic flow at ~65% of rpm so that functions needing constant hydraulic function ie trenching, planing, running a rotary cutter can be done at a lower rpm, saving fuel, wear and tear on the engine, and lowering outside noise levels, oh lets not forget has a lower instance of failure than the plactic frisbee couplers used by the rest of the market, and instead of pulling the engine and pumps to replace the coupling, being down for two days, can be replaced in the field having you up and running a couple of hours rubberband...than yeah, Bobcat still does that. I don't know why though....:waving:

Gain access to ONLY one side of the engine - kinda tough getting to the Kubota turbo huh?

Loss of transfer of power using a rubber band drive belt Vs. direct drive - which by the way IS more reliable the the belt drive.

Deere uses the same coupler design they use on their J series dozers and I've never seen a unit with one fail yet, so your blowing BS smoke on the reliability part of the direct drive theory.

But that's pretty much on par for Bobcat pimps - kinda like the sales pitch that they "Never have to adjust their drive chains" in a skid steer loader. Duh, that's because YOU can't adjust the Bobcat drive chains. Nothing like twisting a neg into a pos :rolleyes:

[Mr. Rain]

Are these things going to ever hit the ground? They're like Dick Cheney, you hear about them frequently, but never actually see them. Maybe Kubota is behind it and we should be seeing them sometime last fall at the latest (a subtle reference to the alleged orange CTL) :)

[Tigerotor77W]

Bobcat says they 630s will be released in August with the 650s to follow (I want to say October, but the press release doesn't specify).

The Kubotas are liking just getting more field hours in; no need to rush them to market in this economy. Remember that the SSL is mostly a North American thing; those other continents still have some SSL sales, the bulk of them are here.

[ksss]

Gain access to ONLY one side of the engine - kinda tough getting to the Kubota turbo huh?

Loss of transfer of power using a rubber band drive belt Vs. direct drive - which by the way IS more reliable the the belt drive.

Deere uses the same coupler design they use on their J series dozers and I've never seen a unit with one fail yet, so your blowing BS smoke on the reliability part of the direct drive theory.

But that's pretty much on par for Bobcat pimps - kinda like the sales pitch that they "Never have to adjust their drive chains" in a skid steer loader. Duh, that's because YOU can't adjust the Bobcat drive chains. Nothing like twisting a neg into a pos :rolleyes:


I would also add that there is no source I can find that proves the lower fuel consumption theory. Especially when you factor in the low torque output of the Kubota, only CAT makes less. These things should sip fuel considering the output, but I have never found them to use any less fuel than my current machines. You also failed to mention the obvious service point that this creates. CASE is coupled steel on steel baby! No plastic here either.

We have discussed Bobcats marketing ability. I think their propaganda department is second only to CAT, others thought Deere was second, but either way BC is good. For what ever the reason, BC turned the engine sideways and has been trying to convince everyone that its the best way to mount an engine in a skid steer ever since.

I realize your a salesman who makes his living selling these things. Therefore its your job to regurgitate what the BC propaganda machine tells you to say. I think you will find most everyone here though is a little more educated on this forum (except Jr. but were trying). Towing the party line here will not go unchallenged. Just letting you know.:clapping:

[Junior M]

I would also add that there is no source I can find that proves the lower fuel consumption theory. Especially when you factor in the low torque output of the Kubota, only CAT makes less. These things should sip fuel considering the output, but I have never found them to use any less fuel than my current machines. You also failed to mention the obvious service point that this creates. CASE is coupled steel on steel baby! No plastic here either.

We have discussed Bobcats marketing ability. I think their propaganda department is second only to CAT, others thought Deere was second, but either way BC is good. For what ever the reason, BC turned the engine sideways and has been trying to convince everyone that its the best way to mount an engine in a skid steer ever since.

I realize your a salesman who makes his living selling these things. Therefore its your job to regurgitate what the BC propaganda machine tells you to say. I think you will find most everyone here though is a little more educated on this forum (except Jr. but were trying). Towing the party line here will not go unchallenged. Just letting you know.:clapping:


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

The only way you change me is if you give me a free machine, any brand!

[WillieWonka1850]

I'm with Junior here,

I'm about as educated as Junior so I could also use a free machine!

[Skidsteerman]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

The only way you change me is if you give me a free machine, any brand!

Would you accept a photo of a free machine?

[WillieWonka1850]

Would you accept a photo of a free machine?
That depends.

Whats the machine? :laugh:

[Junior M]

Would you accept a photo of a free machine?
I got plenty of those, I need the machine in the picture.. :cool2: :laugh:

[WillieWonka1850]

I got plenty of those, I need the machine in the picture.. :cool2: :laugh:
Me ,too!


Would you like an 1845C with 3,600 hours? :laugh:

[bobcat_ron]

As far as the rubberband drive...if you mean mounting the engine sideways and using a drive belt to drive the pumps, which allows better access to service the engine, and allows Bobcat to spin the pumps faster than the engine rpm, giving full hydraulic flow at ~65% of rpm so that functions needing constant hydraulic function ie trenching, planing, running a rotary cutter can be done at a lower rpm, saving fuel, wear and tear on the engine, and lowering outside noise levels, oh lets not forget has a lower instance of failure than the plactic frisbee couplers used by the rest of the market, and instead of pulling the engine and pumps to replace the coupling, being down for two days, can be replaced in the field having you up and running a couple of hours rubberband...than yeah, Bobcat still does that. I don't know why though....:waving:

This got me thinking while I did an 8 hour day in the 247B2 yesterday, all I did was run the engine at 1/4 throttle while dumping gravel in alley floors of a new barn, twisting 90 degrees to dump and twisting around again to drive out and plugging the tracks up with gravel, I was amazed at how little throttle was needed to accomplish the job.
Last time I tried this with my T190, I stalled the engine, so I had to always bump the throttle up more, and always running the engine at 60% throttle gets expensive after 5 hours.

After I finished up, I only put 12 gallons of fuel in the tank.
Who is more efficient now? :cool2:

A Bobcat T180/190 with a 28 gallon fuel tank or a Cat 247B2 with a 17 gallon fuel tank?

Direct drive is still better for the lower scale of the engine and hydraulics usable torque.

[SiteSolutions]

This got me thinking while I did an 8 hour day in the 247B2 yesterday, all I did was run the engine at 1/4 throttle while dumping gravel in alley floors of a new barn, twisting 90 degrees to dump and twisting around again to drive out and plugging the tracks up with gravel, I was amazed at how little throttle was needed to accomplish the job.
Last time I tried this with my T190, I stalled the engine, so I had to always bump the throttle up more, and always running the engine at 60% throttle gets expensive after 5 hours.

After I finished up, I only put 12 gallons of fuel in the tank.
Who is more efficient now? :cool2:

A Bobcat T180/190 with a 28 gallon fuel tank or a Cat 247B2 with a 17 gallon fuel tank?

Direct drive is still better for the lower scale of the engine and hydraulics usable torque.

My old T-190 (rowing sticks) used to crush rocks up to a point, and then it would bog.

My new one with e/h joysticks doesn't slow down. Has a foot throttle, too, so I can set the hand throttle low and just gas it a little when I want more speed or pushing effort.

And a 28 gal tank isn't a negative. If I'm running high load conditions like mowing or harley raking, I can go all day. If I'm just using it as a loader, I can go a couple days.

I don't have a lot of experience with Cat machines, but the one I did run, admittedly for mulching, had to be refueled every five hours.

[Junior M]

This got me thinking while I did an 8 hour day in the 247B2 yesterday, all I did was run the engine at 1/4 throttle while dumping gravel in alley floors of a new barn, twisting 90 degrees to dump and twisting around again to drive out and plugging the tracks up with gravel, I was amazed at how little throttle was needed to accomplish the job.
Last time I tried this with my T190, I stalled the engine, so I had to always bump the throttle up more, and always running the engine at 60% throttle gets expensive after 5 hours.

After I finished up, I only put 12 gallons of fuel in the tank.
Who is more efficient now? :cool2:

A Bobcat T180/190 with a 28 gallon fuel tank or a Cat 247B2 with a 17 gallon fuel tank?

Direct drive is still better for the lower scale of the engine and hydraulics usable torque.
I noticed that when I ran a T190 in gravel, what a piece of garbage..

yeah, I said it! The T190 sucks! I've moved up in the world, a T300 with 700 hours, SJC, and E/H controls. What a beast.. :cool2:

[ARP]

Let's stoke this fire a little bit more...

For the current project I am on, I got the pleasant surprise of getting an E35 in exchange for a 430 I had on rental previously.

After having run both machines for 40 hrs, I can say that the E35 is a totally different machine then the 430. Smooth, powerful, comfortable, precise, did I mention smooth?

Anyway, some pics:

[bobcat_ron]

Bobcat could have easily put their goofy monitor panel in front where it belongs like on all excavators, fat load of good it will do on the side.

[coopers]

Bobcat could have easily put their goofy monitor panel in front where it belongs like on all excavators, fat load of good it will do on the side.

Is there room for that? Kubota does the same and it's no big deal.

[Junior M]

Let's stoke this fire a little bit more...

For the current project I am on, I got the pleasant surprise of getting an E35 in exchange for a 430 I had on rental previously.

After having run both machines for 40 hrs, I can say that the E35 is a totally different machine then the 430. Smooth, powerful, comfortable, precise, did I mention smooth?

Anyway, some pics:
thats awesome!

Was it real tippy? like with a bucket full of dirt?

[Digdeep]

Let's stoke this fire a little bit more...

For the current project I am on, I got the pleasant surprise of getting an E35 in exchange for a 430 I had on rental previously.

After having run both machines for 40 hrs, I can say that the E35 is a totally different machine then the 430. Smooth, powerful, comfortable, precise, did I mention smooth?

Anyway, some pics:

I can't say that I came away from my chance to operate one with the same opinion you did. I thought the cab was extremely nice, but otherwise it didn't feel any better than the 430. If anything, I think the 430 is a little smoother.

[jefftb]

What the heck was that bird's nest of hard pipes and flex hose running out across the boom:confused:

[ARP]

Junior- With a full bucket of dirt on level ground I could reach all the way out and not feel tippy. If the tracks were on uneven ground then yes, it got tippy. Other than that, even on that hill I showed in the previous picture, the machine was pretty stable. Take it for what it is, but I have only run Cat, Komatsu, and Bobcat minis and the Bobcat is pretty good compared to the others. Before I ever bought one though, I would try a Deere/Hitachi mini and a Kubota for a better comparison.

Digdeep- Perhaps they adjust the hyrdaulics differently at the factory?

Jeff- not quite sure what you are refering to, but I assume it is just the way the Koreans group the hoses on the boom of the machine.

[Tigerotor77W]

Jeff- not quite sure what you are refering to, but I assume it is just the way the Koreans group the hoses on the boom of the machine.

I'm not sure I understand his question, either, but either way, this should be an American machine... I don't think Doosan played in this design.

[jefftb]

Hose/lines on the boom. It just looked haphazard or sloppily done to me. Might just be a picture aberration but it seemed that some of the lines were much shorter and at more acute angles than the others.

[DeereMan85]

Hose/lines on the boom. It just looked haphazard or sloppily done to me. Might just be a picture aberration but it seemed that some of the lines were much shorter and at more acute angles than the others.

Looks to me like they did that to allow you to get a wrench in there when you need to change hoses. If they were all side by side and flat against the boom, it would be impossible to do.

[ARP]

Tiger- I could be wrong, but my understanding after having talked with the owner of the dealership that I go to, is that the Koreans figured very heavily in the design of the new series of excavators. I don't consider it a bad thing, as many Asian designed excavators are very good machines. Again, I could be wrong- it's been known to happen occasionally :rolleyes:

[Junior M]

Hose/lines on the boom. It just looked haphazard or sloppily done to me. Might just be a picture aberration but it seemed that some of the lines were much shorter and at more acute angles than the others.
thats how bobcats are plumbed.. ;)

Alot better than Cats design, coming out of the side in a freakin birds nest of crap.

[Tigerotor77W]

Tiger- I could be wrong, but my understanding after having talked with the owner of the dealership that I go to, is that the Koreans figured very heavily in the design of the new series of excavators. I don't consider it a bad thing, as many Asian designed excavators are very good machines. Again, I could be wrong- it's been known to happen occasionally :rolleyes:

I was just musing myself, actually, and I'm not sure which party had the greater influence on design. The G-series excavators have been out for a while, so I had assumed that Bobcat engineers have been working on this since since 2003 or 2004 (there isn't too much structural difference between the D-series and the G-series). Maybe Doosan did the final review of both the M-series SSL/CTL and HEX?

[SellingIron]

The E30/E35 are made here. And the E60/E80 are Doosan's machines painted white...

[Tigerotor77W]

The E30/E35 are made here. And the E60/E80 are Doosan's machines painted white...

Right, but the question was whether there was Doosan design influence on the smaller models.

[bobcat_ron]

Right, but the question was whether there was Doosan design influence on the smaller models.

Doosan influence on all mini excavators.
Basically, Doosan's designs, and Bobcat's steel and people building them.

[ksss]

Doosan influence on all mini excavators.
Basically, Doosan's designs, and Bobcat's steel and people building them.


That was my understanding as well.

Doosan surely did not buy BC for its mini ex. Hard to believe that someone would pay 5B for their skid steers but .........there it is.

[Digdeep]

That was my understanding as well.

Doosan surely did not buy BC for its mini ex. Hard to believe that someone would pay 5B for their skid steers but .........there it is.

I was told that this is the first time in 38 years that Bobcat (Doosan) will take a loss (amazing run!). Next year is supposed to be even worse for them according to an industry report my bobcat buddy let me read. Doosan pumped in almost a couple hundred million dollars into Bobcat this year just to pay off the interest on the loans they took for the purchase. Next year they will have to pump in even more.

[Tigerotor77W]

That was my understanding as well.

Heh! I had no idea the whole line had Doosan blood.

[Skidsteerman]

Heh! I had no idea the whole line had Doosan blood.

Kinda like the local Bobcat stealership here now has a few full size Deawoo excavators and wheel loaders on their yard - good luck with that:laugh:

[WillieWonka1850]

So have any of you guys checked out any M Series loaders yet?
I've been waiting for my Bobcat dealer to get one in so I can Operate one ;)
I'd like to know how the compare to CAT's C Series :confused: :cool2:

[farmall400]

That was my understanding as well.

Doosan surely did not buy BC for its mini ex. Hard to believe that someone would pay 5B for their skid steers but .........there it is.

Sorry for digging up an old thread but I wanted to correct and give credit where credit is due....

The 32 and 35 are designed exclusively by Bobcat in the US. It was in the works before the buyout. The only thing the Koreans did was keep it going when they took over the company.

[farmboy1285]

I personally think they look pretty kick A^^ both the skid steers and the CTL's ( But hey Ive only had a bobcat for a week so my opionon probably doesnt matter)

[Mr. Rain]

I think a lot of people are still on the fence on this one. Waiting to see first hand what they're all about. Our local BC dealer hasn't even taken an order for one yet. Would think the "Bleed-Whites?" would have been all over getting the first ones if there was a lot of excitement about them.

[farmall400]

I think dealers are trying to reduce their inventories and that's why they don't have too much new stuff.

[thebobcatguy]

I think a lot of people are still on the fence on this one. Waiting to see first hand what they're all about. Our local BC dealer hasn't even taken an order for one yet. Would think the "Bleed-Whites?" would have been all over getting the first ones if there was a lot of excitement about them.
Our Dealer got one in the other day and I have to admit that I didn't really like the looks of it at first. Looks too Komatsu "ish". After sitting in the cab and seeing all of the features and the thought that has gone into the design, I have to admit that it is really growing on me. The deciding factor will of course be when I get to operate one for a couple of hours.

[BIGBEN2004]

Don't know if this was posted yet,(I have not been following this thread) but here is a short video I found on YouTube.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eah7IMuEA7A&feature=related


Oh crap I see Ron already posted a comment about 2 months ago. Oh well this won't anyone too bad.....