New Bobcat M-series CTL's and M-series Skidsteer pics

[Boss Exc.]

I went today too a demo day at Bobcat today to see some of their new stuff that they said they would have too see.Well I got there and the only new equiptment they had was the T-110,Everything else was just their current skidsteers,CTL's and excavators.So I asked what about the new skids and CTL's....The sales guy said they didn't have any there,which I already knew,But he gave me some booklets on the SSL's and CTL's.Unfortunatly I don't have a scanner so too give you guy's some pic's I have to take pics of the books...LOL!Btw the inside of the cab's are alot nicer.

Here are the new models and some pics....Enjoy!

SSL--S630 ROC-2180 LBS,74.3 HP
S650 ROC-2690 LBS,74.3 HP

CTL--T630 ROC @ 50% 3180 LBS @ 35% 2230 LBS,74.3 HP
T650 ROC @ 50% 3670 LBS @ 35% 2570 LBS,74.3 HP

Now the pics....

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/robinr1/IMG_0429-1.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/robinr1/IMG_0430.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/robinr1/IMG_0432.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/robinr1/IMG_0436.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/robinr1/IMG_0438.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/robinr1/IMG_0441.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/robinr1/IMG_0444.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/robinr1/IMG_0445.jpg

[ksss]

The cab forward design reminds me of Komatsu's machine. The one issue with mounting the cab so far forward is a skid steer is visibility to the rear. Guess we will see. I must say it is a fairly ugly machine.

[Stick Pro]

did u get any info on the t380 or what ever its new number will be

[stuvecorp]

The cab forward design reminds me of Komatsu's machine. The one issue with mounting the cab so far forward is a skid steer is visibility to the rear. Guess we will see. I must say it is a fairly ugly machine.

The first thing I thought was about Komatsu.:laugh:

[KPS]

WOW!!! extremely ugly and unfinished looking. They used to have a nice compact design but now they have thrown it all out the window for this? Lets just hope they perform amazing.

[Junior M]

The skidsteers are nasty looking, I already know they'll have horrible visibility, they just look so unfinished and cobbled together. To much area behind the cab. The one thing they did improve on was making it shorter, but they screwed it by making it that much longer..

Now the CTL on the other hand, it maybe longer, but I can see some CAT in it(the cab mostly) and I kinda like it!

Guess we'll have to see what comes of them, right now, I am not seeing much in the looks department. The skidsteer makes me want to puke..


And them goofy ass counterweights are going to get on my nerves, kinda like Scag and the Case trackhoes, they are just ugly. Atleast CATs blend in..

[bobcatexc]

KSSS hit it right on the nail with looking like a Komatsu. Still has disappointing numbers for HP on a machine that big.

[Boss Exc.]

did u get any info on the t380 or what ever its new number will be

No I did not,The sales guy never said any thing about it.

And yes I agree they are kinda ugly.

[bobcat_ron]

Check out how close the operator's knees are to the cab door threshold, that's tight, even the B series Cat's have more room than that, and they reused the the vertical path loader with a touch of the old design from the 873/883 days.
The hydraulic ports for the aux. are right in the loader arm, very, very bad idea, now it's even more expensive to replace them.

And the windows!!! ON THE OUTSIDE!!!!

C'mon, only Deere would be dumb enough to do that!

I would have expected more and better.

[mrsops]

The skidsteers are nasty looking, I already know they'll have horrible visibility, they just look so unfinished and cobbled together. To much area behind the cab. The one thing they did improve on was making it shorter, but they screwed it by making it that much longer..

Now the CTL on the other hand, it maybe longer, but I can see some CAT in it(the cab mostly) and I kinda like it!

Guess we'll have to see what comes of them, right now, I am not seeing much in the looks department. The skidsteer makes me want to puke..


And them goofy ass counterweights are going to get on my nerves, kinda like Scag and the Case trackhoes, they are just ugly. Atleast CATs blend in..

There not going to have horrible visibility if anything the visibility is going to better to the front and the sides because of the way the cab is set up. The rear who knows.

I think the ctl looks real good thou it looks like the t250 with a new cab.

Bobcat has always had counterweights like that if you wanted but most people put in on the rear door

[Mr. Rain]

Any indication in that literature on what engines they're using and if they're holding onto the transverse mounting configuration? You'd think that if the divorce with Kubota is reality that something different would likely be worked into a new machine design.

[Stick Pro]

it almost looks like a black white and orange komatsu. I hope the inside of the cab is nice.

[Junior M]

There not going to have horrible visibility if anything the visibility is going to better to the front and the sides because of the way the cab is set up. The rear who knows.

I think the ctl looks real good thou it looks like the t250 with a new cab.

Bobcat has always had counterweights like that if you wanted but most people put in on the rear door
I am not worried about visibility to the front or sides, it was good and looks to be good, its the rear viz that is what will be bad..

the CTL does look like a 250..

And I've never, ever, ever seen counterweights on the outside of a skid like that..

[BIGBEN2004]

Side and front visibility will be better since the windows on the side are lower and the front door is lower since the loader arms have the cross bracing allot lower. Hooking up to attachments will be nicer more like the Deere's. As far as out the back window it looks not to be too bad. It can't be any worse then the Cat's with their super high mounted radiator with the lower portion of the rear window almost at the top of the operators head. It appears that the rear area slopes downward very fast to allow decent visibility. The cab looks cramped but the brochure claimed it is the largest and most comfortable cab they have ever offered. Time in the seat will tell the true story. As for the counter weights they are like the Deere and Cat witch I like for easy off and on with them for certain jobs.

[Tigerotor77W]

Wow. I check in to Lawnsite to see what's happening and now I've spent thirty minutes not studying for finals in five days. :)

Something must be amiss when I reply to practically every single post in a thread...

I must say it is a fairly ugly machine.

I never figured you'd be one for looks...

I already know they'll have horrible visibility, they just look so unfinished and cobbled together.

These things have been on the drawing boards for at least the past five years... cobbled together? And "horrible visibility"? If anything,
a) there are new directives aimed squarely at improving visibility -- and Bobcat will have needed to design the machine with those in account.
b) the rear tower seems lower and the rear section seems lower overall. That may mean better -- or at worst slightly-worse -- visibility. But horrible is a bit premature.

they reused the the vertical path loader with a touch of the old design from the 873/883 days.

Disagree. They look like the S250/S300 loader arms. There's very little that reminds me of an 873G loader arm.

Bobcat has always had counterweights like that

No, not "always." Even now you don't see many Bobcats with that option.

And I've never, ever, ever seen counterweights on the outside of a skid like that..

Deere and NH have been the historic manufacturers who adopted this approach. Cat adopted it for the C-series. (Bigben mentioned this as well.)

Any indication in that literature on what engines they're using and if they're holding onto the transverse mounting configuration?

With that long of an engine bay, I wouldn't be surprised if the added length was to accommodate a longitudinal-mounted engine, but this is no less speculative than Junior's comment about the crappy visibility.

[ksss]

Tiger, now that girl you saw "escorting me" through ConExpo on the last day should not be an indication of my lack of attention to all things pretty. It was the last day and I was nearly down to cashing in my airline ticket. I got what I could pay for.:dizzy: I like fine lines, not sure this BC is it but I am sure once they become common place they wont seem so.........visually challenged.:laugh:

[Digdeep]

Tigerotor77W I agree with you on the 873G loader resemblance. I can't tell for sure but it sure looks like there is a good possibility that the transverse mounted engine may be a thing of the past. I also figured that a wheeled machine with with a ROC of almost 2700lbs would have more than 74hp (my S220 has 75hp) and for sure a tracked machine with almost 3700lbs of ROC should have more than 74hp. At least IMHO.

I do kind of like the look. Remember it doesn't have to look too pretty as long as it works.

[Digdeep]

Tiger, now that girl you saw "escorting me" through ConExpo on the last day should not be an indication of my lack of attention to all things pretty. It was the last day and I was nearly down to cashing in my airline ticket. I got what I could pay for.:dizzy: I like fine lines, not sure this BC is it but I am sure once they become common place they wont seem so.........visually challenged.:laugh:

Absolutely sweet!!!!!!:laugh::laugh::drinkup:

[Boss Exc.]

I also forgot too say that in the brochure it say's,

www.bobcat.com/newctl

and

www.bobcat.com/newssl

Both links DON'T work for some reason,so maybe it's something too keep checking on in the future.

Also it say's nothing about the way the engine is mounted.

I wish I could scan these brochure's for you guy's....It would be so much nicer if you could read the whole thing.

If anybody want's more spec's just ask me what you want to know and I'll see if it's in the book.

[westcoh]

Wow, I'll reserve my final judgement untill I get a chance to demo one, but looks-wise they sure are fugly.

[YellowDogSVC]

Anyone notice the orange handle near the operator's right and where the door striker would be? Looks like a throttle setup similar to CAT C series?

[YellowDogSVC]

I think the cab will be similar to the CAT. One piece with no bolt together thresholds for a door kit (which leaks dust and doesn't seal well). I think you are also looking at an extremely stable, low center of gravity machine. I am very impressed with what I have seen so far. I imagine the guts will be a lot cleaner, too, with easier access to components. Thanks for posting the pics.

[Stick Pro]

do u have a pic of the inside of the cab. how wide are the ctl's

[ksss]

Well this machine should set the standard. It is the latest (we will see if its the greatest) machine to be released.

Tough time to release a new machine as CAT and CASE found out. Not many people buying. That will make the bean or rice counters cringe, but the show must move on regardless of the economy.

These are my hopes for BC in general on their skid steers. Give your loyal following a real reason to buy Bobcat and equally important give everyone else a reason to buy BC. Their name has largely carried their machines, they have a couple rock stars and whole lot of groupies in their lineup. Hopefully for them they have built a machine that can go head to head with anything on the market in any ROC class. They certainly don't have that with their current lineup.

You do that by offering offering real performance. That means (at least to me) higher hp and much more torque in their machines across the board. I know I will get flamed, but drop Kubota, find a power plant that makes torque, that aint Kubota at least as they are speced for skid steers or track machines. Hopefully the new machines will not be all bling and actually have substance to them. A little more HD would not be a bad thing. I know the ad said that they have made the hyd. more powerful and that looks like a decision in the right direction. Hopefully that is not just talk, the BC marketing people are great at talking, unfortunately the rest of the BC Company is not as good at doing.

Why should any of us care especially if your not a BC customer. Personally I have many friends who work for BC. I grew up less than 100 miles from Bismarck and Gwinner. BC is important to ND. Beyond that, the better this new BC machine is the more everyone else has to ratchet up their game. Thats good for everyone. BC has a lot of R&D into this machine, it will take a while in this current economy to recoup that. I am sure that Doosan wants to see some return on their 5 Billion investment. I hope that does not include shuttering more plants and moving out of the US. However it just might mean that if these don't sell. There is no doubt that BC's over production during the Doosan buyout talks were taking place is going to hurt. They will have to give those machines away. The better the new machines are the harder those K machines will be to sell.

[Tigerotor77W]

Anyone notice the orange handle near the operator's right and where the door striker would be? Looks like a throttle setup similar to CAT C series?

Yeah, saw that, too... I imagine that's what it is. Most manufacturers seem to have a throttle like this now (I think).

As for the sites not working: I presume these machines won't be launched until summer (in time for the summer WorkSaver, which comes out, what, in June? I don't remember) or in the fall.

[Junior M]

These things have been on the drawing boards for at least the past five years... cobbled together? And "horrible visibility"? If anything,
a) there are new directives aimed squarely at improving visibility -- and Bobcat will have needed to design the machine with those in account.
b) the rear tower seems lower and the rear section seems lower overall. That may mean better -- or at worst slightly-worse -- visibility. But horrible is a bit premature.


With that long of an engine bay, I wouldn't be surprised if the added length was to accommodate a longitudinal-mounted engine, but this is no less speculative than Junior's comment about the crappy visibility.

I may have worded that wrong and didnt explain my whole thought, I was speaking of rear visibility, front and side should be better from the looks of the pics. the rear visibility is always what gets me, I am some what short so its hard to see out of the back window and you cant see much looking down your track.

Yeah, saw that, too... I imagine that's what it is. Most manufacturers seem to have a throttle like this now (I think).

As for the sites not working: I presume these machines won't be launched until summer (in time for the summer WorkSaver, which comes out, what, in June? I don't remember) or in the fall.


A throttle? Like NH's lawnmower throttle setup that was on the right front pillar?

[bobcat_ron]

Even the head lights are now more expensive than ever to replace, why couldn't they just use conventional high intensity lights?

[Tigerotor77W]

I may have worded that wrong and didnt explain my whole thought, I was speaking of rear visibility, front and side should be better from the looks of the pics. the rear visibility is always what gets me, I am some what short so its hard to see out of the back window and you cant see much looking down your track.

A throttle? Like NH's lawnmower throttle setup that was on the right front pillar?

1) Fair enough... the original post wasn't clear, so I pounced. (no pun intended)

2) Yeah... is that what the consensus is on NH's throttle? I had no idea. :laugh:

Even the head lights are now more expensive than ever to replace, why couldn't they just use conventional high intensity lights?

Parts revenue.

[Digdeep]

I think it looks like the two skids are meant to replace the S220 and S250 and the Tracks the T250 and T300. The hp and ROC of the skids is very close to the two existing machines, but the hp for the tracked machines is lower than the current models.

[SiteSolutions]

I think it looks like the two skids are meant to replace the S220 and S250 and the Tracks the T250 and T300. The hp and ROC of the skids is very close to the two existing machines, but the hp for the tracked machines is lower than the current models.

The 35% ROC of the track machines are more like a T-220 and a T-270 (which I am aware do not exist, just thinking what they might call them if they were manufactured under the current naming scheme)

75 hp with better torque ought to work well at this size, especially if they decided to put better hydraulics in them that actually let you use the capacity of the machine. One bad thing / good thing about my T-190 for example is that it won't lift what it can't safely carry. Which is good for keeping the machine from tearing itself up, especially if you have an employee in the seat. It's a real pain in the butt sometimes, though, especially if you are an owner/operator and have enough experience to pay attention and be careful carrying something heavy. And the lifting force from ground level is awful on the current machines (In my limited experience), maybe something that more torque and better hydraulics can fix, while keeping ROC pretty much the same.

First reaction, being that i hate change, is that the new naming scheme sucks and the machines are kinda ugly. They look like a repainted New Holland. And I seriously hope the sill isn't closer to your shins than a B series Cat; we rented one for a mulching job and it beat my legs to death.

*edit* I'm 6'3" so seeing out of these machines isn't usually a problem; legroom could be a problem tho...

[Junior M]

1) Fair enough... the original post wasn't clear, so I pounced. (no pun intended)

2) Yeah... is that what the consensus is on NH's throttle? I had no idea. :laugh:



Parts revenue.
we got a NH LS180, I am not to sure I try and stay off of it, at work and the throttle looks like it came off a freakin lawnmower and its in the weirdest place..

[SiteSolutions]

The present throttle location isn't all that great on the BC lineup; my long arms have trouble bending back to use it... I mostly use the foot pedal anyway. It's probably a real pain in the arse (literally) for some of the larger-waistband folks, too.

[Junior M]

The present throttle location isn't all that great on the BC lineup; my long arms have trouble bending back to use it... I mostly use the foot pedal anyway. It's probably a real pain in the arse (literally) for some of the larger-waistband folks, too.
I dont mind the throttle where it is, but I am a small guy and I've never had the oppurtunity to use a foot throttle. For clearing jobs and running the bush hog I'd like to have the foot throttle, the 190 can suck some fuel running fuel throttle hours on end. And I didnt always need to be running balls to the wall, especially with the grapple.

Were there any control changes with the new Mseries of skids?

[sonicvanek]

Looks like the same gauge package ( at least on the left side ) as their lates K series uses. Finally got the cup holder though. I like that idea. Too bad we can't see the rest of the cab inside.

[SiteSolutions]

I also forgot too say that in the brochure it say's,

www.bobcat.com/newctl

and

www.bobcat.com/newssl

Both links DON'T work for some reason,so maybe it's something too keep checking on in the future.

Also it say's nothing about the way the engine is mounted.

I wish I could scan these brochure's for you guy's....It would be so much nicer if you could read the whole thing.

If anybody want's more spec's just ask me what you want to know and I'll see if it's in the book.

Here's a copy of the email I just sent to the Bobcat webmaster...


This website consistently sucks. Either you're no good or you don't have enough resources. I request you fire yourself or ask for more money. Either way, this site has sucked without fail from the time it was updated, must be going on two years now? The old site kinda sucked but it worked and was navigable. This new one continues to suck. Please fix it. Really. You've had plenty of time.

In all sincerity,

Matt Hammond

[Bleed Green]

Ya those two links didn't work. Maybe because they have not made the pages yet, because the equipment is not out yet?

[Junior M]

Here's a copy of the email I just sent to the Bobcat webmaster...
bahahaha, thats great!

[SiteSolutions]

Ya those two links didn't work. Maybe because they have not made the pages yet, because the equipment is not out yet?

I've had other links not work from within the site before so it was an aggregate hate mail. It's just not a very useful site. I even wanted to "view" a picture of some machine on there and instead, it forced me to download the thing. WTF? Inexcusable crappiness for a major co. like Bobcat. Seriously.

[Boss Exc.]

do u have a pic of the inside of the cab. how wide are the ctl's

As for pics give me alittle bit and see if I can get you some decent ones.

T630-74" wide (with bucket)

Operating weight-9015 LBS

T650-74" wide (with bucket)

Operating weight-9440 LBS

[mrsops]

I talked with my salesman today he just came back from upstate new york where they were able to see and use the new mini x, skids and ctl's. He said he was very impressed with everything. He did say the visibility in the new skids was great and he did mention that the rear visibility was def a lot better he said it slopes down more. Very comfortable cab and roomy in both the skids and the mini. He also did say that not just the skids but the mini excavators are so quiet it doesnt even sound like there running. Few more notes he said they have a cup holder now and an option for an air ride seat In the skids. The back door they shortened a few inches as well.

He said when lifting the cab to get to the guts of the machine everything is set up real nice they cleaned it up big time. There still using kubota engines to.

Everything performed real nice according to him. Cant wait to get into one NEXT MONTH!!

[CAT powered]

Note: That was told to you by the Bobcat SALESMAN.

He's not going to point the machine's faults out!

I must say that those are some of the ugliest machines I've ever seen. And don't compare that cab to a CAT's. CAT is not dumb enough to (as Ron mentioned) put the windows on the OUTSIDE.

Those counterweights are just begging to be knocked off hanging out the way they are.

Give me all the flack you want. I don't buy new skids anyways so I'm not terribly concerned. Just making some observations.

[Boss Exc.]

This is the best I could do...Hopefully you can read everything.

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/robinr1/IMG_0469.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/robinr1/IMG_0468.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/robinr1/IMG_0474.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/robinr1/IMG_0475.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/robinr1/IMG_0470.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/robinr1/IMG_0449.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/robinr1/IMG_0450.jpg

[Boss Exc.]

Here are a few more....

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/robinr1/IMG_0455.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/robinr1/IMG_0456.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/robinr1/IMG_0458.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/robinr1/IMG_0459.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/robinr1/IMG_0460.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/robinr1/IMG_0461.jpg

[Scag48]

In Bobcat (Doosan's) credit, at least they did SOMETHING to change their lineup. However, I expected a little more out of the redesigned chassis as they've been riding it for the better part of 10 years.

Definately looks like visibility out the sides will be good, or at least better than the vertical lift machines they are offering now. I'm not so hot on the cab that far forward, reminds of a monkey getting fresh with a pineapple if you get what I'm saying. Not sure if I'd want to be seated that far forward but it may turn out to be a good move for the industry. Hard to say how that will turn out but I think rear visibility will definately be worse off.

The counterweights are nothing new. Although I've never seen a Bobcat with them, that style counterweight is offered by Cat, Deere, etc.. This counterweight location and design is nothing new.

I think it's cute they put little baby fenders over the front tires. :laugh:

[Junior M]

Note: That was told to you by the Bobcat SALESMAN.

He's not going to point the machine's faults out!

I must say that those are some of the ugliest machines I've ever seen. And don't compare that cab to a CAT's. CAT is not dumb enough to (as Ron mentioned) put the windows on the OUTSIDE.

Those counterweights are just begging to be knocked off hanging out the way they are.

Give me all the flack you want. I don't buy new skids anyways so I'm not terribly concerned. Just making some observations.


The bobcat thing, I agree..

and I was speaking of the overall shape of the cab, not the direct appearence..

And that was the first thing I thought with the counterweights..

[CAT powered]

If you were ever trying to do any brush mowing (I know it's not likely with a wheeled machine, but still) you'd end up with snapped off counterweights, a beat up cab from the saplings the weights smushed down, and tons of weeds wrapped around the weights.

[Junior M]

If you were ever trying to do any brush mowing (I know it's not likely with a wheeled machine, but still) you'd end up with snapped off counterweights, a beat up cab from the saplings the weights smushed down, and tons of weeds wrapped around the weights.
Those were my exact thoughts..

Another situation, when in those tight areas mowing between trees and when you got to twist between two trees, snap, the weights are on the ground..

[J. Peterson Grading]

I just can't wait untill one of you guys actually get to run one.

J.

[Stick Pro]

did they move the a/c vents i cuold not see them on the pics i hope they are not in the same stupid spots they are in on the current machines.

[bobcat_ron]

The interior cab noise can only be reduced if they reduced the hydraulic noise.

[YellowDogSVC]

Some of you may remember my rants about the CAT pressurized cab issues and all the dust. Bobcat did exactly what I told the CAT engineers I thought needed to be done to achieve a good seal. Have a seal that compresses!

I liked just about everything I read except for the windows on the exterior. Guys that tree shear and mulch will probably end up with issues unless Lexan is an option. The rigid rops mesh on the G and K series loaders saved my glass more than once.

I imagine the loaders this brochure was introducing are mid sized loaders based on the high flow only reaching 30.5 gpm. I think there will be bigger and stronger machines in the line up.

The weights of the CTL's looks good but if they are only 74 hp, that is not a great power to weight ration. Only time will see. I'm excited and as KSSS pointed out, this innovation and product release keeps the whole industry moving forward.

[bobcatexc]

I just can't wait untill one of you guys actually get to run one.


I agree, they see a few pictures and automatically start bashing on it and start pissing and moaning about visibility and the cab.

[SellingIron]

Boss Exc. Thanks for posting the pics. I had some pics but they were from a confidential presentation. Didn't want to start any fires.. I'm hearing that theres less piping,angled fittings( Should help with the loud whining noises and reduce hydraulic heat issues). For some reason the SJC units were always quieter than the Standard controlled units. Never got a real answer for it.. The rear visibility will be allot better because of the lower rear grills. The counterweights should not even be an issue. Some of you guys are getting real picky worried about counterweights. I have never had a customer call me and say ( Hey, I ripped off my damn counterweights off and of all places you have them sticking out the sides). Yeah!!! Jr. When they said the throttle was going on the cab. I was thinking the same thing. Lawn mower or boat throttle.. The old location is awkward to get to if your tall or big boned....The new head lights output is increased by 50%(When this thing is working at night, its going to look like the sun is out) HVAC is increased by 35%. Now you can sell snow cones out of your cab at lunch time..Visibility is increased by 30%.. Now when you run over the cat salesman (because he wants to see what a true pressurized cab looks and feels like), you won't have an excuse anymore.:laugh::usflag:

[Bleed Green]

Are these coming out soon? I'm surprised this thread has lasted this long.

[SellingIron]

Months Away.....Flooding in ND slowed things down....

[iron peddler]

flooding? are sure it is not the warehouses full of machines on the ground? or the 250 that got laid off in Gwinner?

[SiteSolutions]

The salesman population at my local dealer has been cut by half. The machine population is still very high.

I have to say the glass on the outside is the major thing that just screams "That's nuckin futs!" on these. I have had plenty of wallops against the rops cage where I was glad the glass wasn't taking the lick. Wonder if they will have a forestry package that addresses this for folks not just laying sod?

[ksss]

The interior cab noise can only be reduced if they reduced the hydraulic noise.

Thats no joke. The crazy thing is it took ten years to fix the hyd. noise, and the fan noise. I always felt like I was in a helicopter when running a BC, same high pitched noise that just irritates the hell out of me.

[Tigerotor77W]

I imagine the loaders this brochure was introducing are mid sized loaders based on the high flow only reaching 30.5 gpm.

Hmm... very interesting thought. Maybe Bobcat is going with a three-frame range -- small (S130-S205), medium (S220, S250), and large (S300+). What is the lift height and wheelbase of the S630 and S650?

[IMAGE]

I think I'd be tripping over the radio and heater controls in thier new location. Definately bumping them with my muddy boots getting in and out. I dont think that was the smartest location for them to say the least.

Oh, and if anything, the flood helped speed things up for a release! Machines in the Red River Valley have been flying off the floor. Its the thousands of machines sitting unsold in dealer lots all over the U.S. thats holding up the release.

[SellingIron]

Thats no joke. The crazy thing is it took ten years to fix the hyd. noise, and the fan noise. I always felt like I was in a helicopter when running a BC, same high pitched noise that just irritates the hell out of me.

Ksss, Its a good thing your are a case guy. Your keeping your local dealer from going under and helping there market share.:)

[Junior M]

The salesman population at my local dealer has been cut by half. The machine population is still very high.

I have to say the glass on the outside is the major thing that just screams "That's nuckin futs!" on these. I have had plenty of wallops against the rops cage where I was glad the glass wasn't taking the lick. Wonder if they will have a forestry package that addresses this for folks not just laying sod?
I agree, if I had a new machine and used it the same way I use our rental T190, it'd be beat all to hell, I had numerous trees flip back and hit the cage, if they dont come out with some type of forestry package, it'll be harder to see out of than a log skidder..

[ksss]

Ksss, Its a good thing your are a case guy. Your keeping your local dealer from going under and helping there market share.:)

I doubt my couple skid steers every 3-4 years is making any appreciable difference either to my dealer or to CASE. Although every machine sold is a machine sold. CASE is number two in behind BC in total machines sold. I would not be too smug if I were you on BC marketshare, it is like the Polor ice cap, receding, and has for years. Although my CASE dealer has never had to lay off a salesman in fact this Winter they added one, can your BC dealership say that? Judging by your thread last Fall I would say not.

You may not like the fact that BC (present series) are loud and have a hyd. whine that makes GR sound like a mime, but its true. Attacking CASE does not change that. Too bad it wasn't that easy.

I am sure that BC will, if they haven't yet, send you to school to teach you how to sell these new machines. Learn well Grasshopper. After your done taking in the propaganda and have rehearsed the talking points that BC has/will teach you, I will spend some time on a couple machines and then we will converse on the pros and cons. If nothing else it will perhaps sharpen you up when you go sell these things.:waving:


As a sidenote, an interesting development locally.

BC and Deere used to be under the same dealership, Scott Machinery. Scott Machinery sold their Deere dealerships to another company, and so the local BC dealership became Intermountain Bobcat which I think is run by the Scott family. So now the Bobcat stores in Utah and at least this part of Idaho are under the same name. They moved to a better location although it looks like hell (an old RV dealership that went out of business). Should be interesting to see if they can stay a float. Not a lot of BC machines here so I kinda have my doubts, but we will see.

[jefftb]

You may not like the fact that BC (present series) are loud and have a hyd. whine that makes GR sound like a mime, but its true.


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Junior M]

I doubt my couple skid steers every 3-4 years is making any appreciable difference either to my dealer or to CASE. Although every machine sold is a machine sold. CASE is number two in behind BC in total machines sold. I would not be too smug if I were you on BC marketshare, it is like the Polor ice cap, receding, and has for years. Although my CASE dealer has never had to lay off a salesman in fact this Winter they added one, can your BC dealership say that? Judging by your thread last Fall I would say not.

You may not like the fact that BC (present series) are loud and have a hyd. whine that makes GR sound like a mime, but its true. Attacking CASE does not change that. Too bad it wasn't that easy.

I am sure that BC will, if they haven't yet, send you to school to teach you how to sell these new machines. Learn well Grasshopper. After your done taking in the propaganda and have rehearsed the talking points that BC has/will teach you, I will spend some time on a couple machines and then we will converse on the pros and cons. If nothing else it will perhaps sharpen you up when you go sell these things.:waving:


As a sidenote, an interesting development locally.

BC and Deere used to be under the same dealership, Scott Machinery. Scott Machinery sold their Deere dealerships to another company, and so the local BC dealership became Intermountain Bobcat which I think is run by the Scott family. So now the Bobcat stores in Utah and at least this part of Idaho are under the same name. They moved to a better location although it looks like hell (an old RV dealership that went out of business). Should be interesting to see if they can stay a float. Not a lot of BC machines here so I kinda have my doubts, but we will see.
So I am no longer grasshopper? :cool2:

And I am going to edit your post and put it in my sig, I like it! :laugh:

And just to add a little gas to the fire, my Bobcat only laid off one guy, the rental guy.

[Mr. Rain]

"CASE is number two in behind BC in total machines sold."

Not picking on Case, but that's not a stat I'd give a lot of value given the current Case market share numbers. If they're only in the 10% range now on wheels roughly,and only 4% on track machines, what does that say? Basically that they have been around longer than other competitors, or that they've dropped the ball somewhere along the line either in their product or dealer network or somewhere causing their numbers to drop in recent years.

[SellingIron]

Ksss, When your number one everybody is shooting for you. We have seen this in the last couple of years. Maybe this new line will spark up some new business.

I'm not sure how the housing market is in Idaho but here in Florida we have over 900,000 homes just sitting around collecting dust.. Some when you go from selling 120 machines a year to 35 things are going to change. You can't have that same support to only handle 35 units per salesman. I'm glad that your dealership got hire an extra salesman. He gets to go home with a paycheck, I wish I could say that 30 employees that got laid off from our dealerships.

If you don't like the fun whining sound, use a SJC unit. That noise for some reason does not exist.

As far as bobcat teaching me on there products. We are always learning the products we sell and the ones we sell against everyday. I have been around bobcat since 1998 and was lucky enough to go to boot camp in Arizona for a week and be a human filter in the sand. I have seen the boss issues, seatbar sensor, Peugeot engines, perkins head gasket leak, my favorite 864 you name it etc.

I look at it this way: An opinion is like an A$$ Hole everybody has one...:drinkup:

[BigDigger]

Does not look like the next gen step I was expecting. No pics of the interior? I love the cab forward thing....that's funny....Looks like they just shortened the cab at the back of the machine and put more white metal there....and then pushed the seat forward. hmmm

I am still partial to the Cat C series for looks. Performance opinions aside I think it's still the best looking.

[SellingIron]

Page five has Interior pics..Cat's C-Series is smooth looking forsure...

[Junior M]

Does not look like the next gen step I was expecting. No pics of the interior? I love the cab forward thing....that's funny....Looks like they just shortened the cab at the back of the machine and put more white metal there....and then pushed the seat forward. hmmm

I am still partial to the Cat C series for looks. Performance opinions aside I think it's still the best looking.
wow.. :hammerhead:

[bobcat_ron]

And no mention of an air ride seat in the M Series Bobcat's.

I think I'll stick to the slightly more expensive Cat skid steers for a few more years.

[Digdeep]

SellingIron and ksss- Bobcat/Case..Case/Bobcat:sleeping:

By the time this economic turmoil is done the entire equipment scene may look different to all of us. The CAT dealer here in WI might as well not be selling compact equipment anymore seeing as how they let their entire compact sales force go..and in the #2 state last year for skid sales!! How many other Cat dealers are shrinking back to their core business of heavy equipment during this downturn? They are currently #2 in national skid steer market share but not by much over NH. It’s there for the taking. Case is hanging in around 9-10% but IMO they fart around with cab improvements when there are other mechanical things they should be focusing on…like the return of the BIC (the guys who did the XT high flow- Burlington Installation Corporation) system to replace the pitiful small displacement aux pump Case now sells for it’s high flow. You can still get the BIC system but it will cost you an additional $4000.00.

Bobcat continues to layoff (250 people last week), Fiat wants their $5 billion back from CNH that they loaned them last year, Case is going to spend over $200 million restructuring their North American operations (I predict they will shut down a few plants), Gehl is practically broke, and on and on.

I will hold out judgment on the new Bobcat machines until I get to operate one and see some out in the field, although I’m not too impressed with their CTL weight to hp ratio- it falls between the T190 and the T140 and I wouldn’t consider any of those two machines “powerhouses”. I know that Bobcat dealers are still sitting on way too much inventory based on my friends in ND so we’ll know much more by the middle of the summer.

I never thought that being an Algebra teacher would replace the feeling of selling skid steers and compact equipment, but with the way things are right now I’m glad that I don’t sell for a living anymore. We may not agree on the brands we like but I know that I hope all of you stay working and stay healthy.

[DeereMan85]

Didn't Chrysler do the "cab forward" thing in the mid '90s? Maybe in a couple years they'll roll out the BC Cruiser.

[mrsops]

And no mention of an air ride seat in the M Series Bobcat's.

I think I'll stick to the slightly more expensive Cat skid steers for a few more years.

Ron there is an option for an air ride seat

[YellowDogSVC]

The salesman population at my local dealer has been cut by half. The machine population is still very high.

I have to say the glass on the outside is the major thing that just screams "That's nuckin futs!" on these. I have had plenty of wallops against the rops cage where I was glad the glass wasn't taking the lick. Wonder if they will have a forestry package that addresses this for folks not just laying sod?

that's my only concern other than will they have Lexan front doors that include a wiper like CAT does.

Bobcat of San Antonio sells a lot of machines with tree shear packaged. That's about the roughest thing I can think of as far as breaking side windows..cedar branches whacking and poking at them.

[mrsops]

Ksss, Its a good thing your are a case guy. Your keeping your local dealer from going under and helping there market share.:)

You can say that again... Like i said before case has the lowest market share for skid steers whats that saying about them?? There living off there 1845 days so They cant be that good of a machine if no ones buying them now. Ksss Like i said before you will knock bobcat for there hydro wine which only occurs at low throttle. Every machine i have been in never impressed me more then bobcat. Now with these new machines coming out it just looks like the total package.. Ksss send me a post card when you get the new bobcat :waving:

[YellowDogSVC]

If you don't like the fun whining sound, use a SJC unit. That noise for some reason does not exist.



I don't remember the whine back in the day when I had servos in my 863. It got louder in the K series but my 330 with joysticks is a bit quieter. Don't know either. Maybe I don't notice it as much because of the joystick lag. the sound is probably there but it happens after I am thinking of something else???

[mrsops]

I don't remember the whine back in the day when I had servos in my 863. It got louder in the K series but my 330 with joysticks is a bit quieter. Don't know either. Maybe I don't notice it as much because of the joystick lag. the sound is probably there but it happens after I am thinking of something else???

yellow my wine happens at low throttle and its not that bad. When the machine is pumping you cant hear it especially with the sound package. My machine is a hand and foot control but the sjc machines you don't here the whine as much

[stuvecorp]

You can say that again... Like i said before case has the lowest market share for skid steers whats that saying about them?? There living off there 1845 days so They cant be that good of a machine if no ones buying them now. Ksss Like i said before you will knock bobcat for there hydro wine which only occurs at low throttle. Every machine i have been in never impressed me more then bobcat. Now with these new machines coming out it just looks like the total package.. Ksss send me a post card when you get the new bobcat :waving:

You are a little off on the market share thing there.:rolleyes:

Case needs to take a cattle prod to the dealers and get the Series 3 in guys hands, if guys tried them it would look like a PowerTan Revival.

[Boss Exc.]

Are these coming out soon? I'm surprised this thread has lasted this long.

The day I went the sales guy's told me the very first SSL had been sold the day before.

[Digdeep]

You are a little off on the market share thing there.:rolleyes:

Case needs to take a cattle prod to the dealers and get the Series 3 in guys hands, if guys tried them it would look like a PowerTan Revival.

Agreed. Case isn't last but they have continued to lose market share. They were on pace to be neck and neck with JD for 4th or 5th nationally as of the end of the third quarter of 2008. Bobcat, CAT and NH made up the top three. Bobcat and CAT actually lost some market share that NH picked up. JD also closed the gap on Case. I predict that CAT's market share will continue to decline as their dealers focus more on their core heavier equipment. Especially if this economy stays depressed. The dealers will cut sales staff (Fabco released their entire compact sales force) and focus more on larger margin equipment- backhoe on up. On the whole I think the same holds true for Case, NH and JD. Directors will focus on running lean sales forces and focus on larger margin equipment. Cost versus Benefit analysis- how long does the salesman have to work to close the deal and how big is the margin compared to the energy expended to get that margin. Tow and show for large dealers (CAT, Case, NH etc) is expensive when you're towing around a skid steer, mini-ex, or CTL that will only bring a small margin of 5% on the low end and 10% on the high end. Gross profit at 10% on a $50k machine is only $5k and it doesn't go far when you add up fuel, truck leases, wages, comissions, product support reserves, etc.

[Boss Exc.]

Hmm... very interesting thought. Maybe Bobcat is going with a three-frame range -- small (S130-S205), medium (S220, S250), and large (S300+). What is the lift height and wheelbase of the S630 and S650?

Lift Height S630-121 in(radial lift)

Wheelbase S630-72.1 in

Lift Height S650-124.0 in(Vertical lift)

Wheelbase S650-72.1 in

[Digdeep]

Lift Height S630-121 in(radial lift)

Wheelbase S630-72.1 in

Lift Height S650-124.0 in(Vertical lift)

Wheelbase S650-72.1 in

What is the wheel base center wheel-to-center wheel?

[bobcat_ron]

I was in at my local dealer, they didn't have the M Series brochures, but when I told them of the outside windows, they freaked out too.

[Tigerotor77W]

Lift Height S630-121 in(radial lift)

Wheelbase S630-72.1 in

Lift Height S650-124.0 in(Vertical lift)

Wheelbase S650-72.1 in

I echo DigDeep's comment... these are widths, not wheelbases. But these figures confirm that there will be a larger machine than this -- probably in the 128" lift height range. I don't know if the width will go to 78 inches or not...

[bobcat_ron]

Why the hell did they renumber them?

Another gripe I have now, now I see hoards of people asking what the ROC and width is of these new machines, even Cat is a bit iffy.

[Boss Exc.]

What is the wheel base center wheel-to-center wheel?

Sorry,I looked at the wrong letter in the diagram....Both are at 59.3 in.

[YellowDogSVC]

there is a larger machine coming out late in the year or next year with approx. 99 hp.

[ksss]

SellingIron and ksss- Bobcat/Case..Case/Bobcat:sleeping:

By the time this economic turmoil is done the entire equipment scene may look different to all of us. The CAT dealer here in WI might as well not be selling compact equipment anymore seeing as how they let their entire compact sales force go..and in the #2 state last year for skid sales!! How many other Cat dealers are shrinking back to their core business of heavy equipment during this downturn? They are currently #2 in national skid steer market share but not by much over NH. It’s there for the taking. Case is hanging in around 9-10% but IMO they fart around with cab improvements when there are other mechanical things they should be focusing on…like the return of the BIC (the guys who did the XT high flow- Burlington Installation Corporation) system to replace the pitiful small displacement aux pump Case now sells for it’s high flow. You can still get the BIC system but it will cost you an additional $4000.00.

Bobcat continues to layoff (250 people last week), Fiat wants their $5 billion back from CNH that they loaned them last year, Case is going to spend over $200 million restructuring their North American operations (I predict they will shut down a few plants), Gehl is practically broke, and on and on.

I will hold out judgment on the new Bobcat machines until I get to operate one and see some out in the field, although I’m not too impressed with their CTL weight to hp ratio- it falls between the T190 and the T140 and I wouldn’t consider any of those two machines “powerhouses”. I know that Bobcat dealers are still sitting on way too much inventory based on my friends in ND so we’ll know much more by the middle of the summer.

I never thought that being an Algebra teacher would replace the feeling of selling skid steers and compact equipment, but with the way things are right now I’m glad that I don’t sell for a living anymore. We may not agree on the brands we like but I know that I hope all of you stay working and stay healthy.

Actually BIC never had anything to do with CASE high flow machines. I thought so to, I spoke with BIC about a month a go and was told that the 5000 psi High Flow was a CASE product not theirs. BIC's is better, but not many guys need that extra capacity.

The pump cant be that bad. It makes 41.9 gpm at 3050 psi. Runs 85" snow blower like a champ. The cab change needed to happen. Only it needed to happen with the original 400 series. CASE's issues are not with the product. There are some dealer issues. However the product is first class. The series 3 machines fixed a couple problems in some the ROC classes that needed to happen. However the core machines 440, 450, 465 continue to kick ass.

[Digdeep]

Sorry,I looked at the wrong letter in the diagram....Both are at 59.3 in.

Nah...are you trying to tell me that these two machines that in all probability are replacing the S220 and S250 have 11 more inches of wheel base center wheel-to-center wheel than the current models:nono: I'm not saying its impossible but it is very unlikely. The S330 only has 48". A wheel base that long would destroy tires in a very short time. Please post the diagram if you have it available. I'm thinking tha ctual wheel base will be around 48.3" just like the current models and most every other OEM. Some laws of physics are just too tough to overcome.

[Digdeep]

Actually BIC never had anything to do with CASE high flow machines. I thought so to, I spoke with BIC about a month a go and was told that the 5000 psi High Flow was a CASE product not theirs. BIC's is better, but not many guys need that extra capacity.

The pump cant be that bad. It makes 41.9 gpm at 3050 psi. Runs 85" snow blower like a champ. The cab change needed to happen. Only it needed to happen with the original 400 series. CASE's issues are not with the product. There are some dealer issues. However the product is first class. The series 3 machines fixed a couple problems in some the ROC classes that needed to happen. However the core machines 440, 450, 465 continue to kick ass.

I was told that BIC used to provide the componentry for Case. Thanks for the info. I do like the machines, especially the Iveco engines just not as much as the XT series. I really do think they are a step back, at least for me. I'm not saying 41.9 gpm isn't enough but the pump is only a 36cc gear pump and I know from talking to an ASV salesman about the RC100 that their pump is a 45cc variable displacement piston pump. That means that the 465 is putting out almost 2gpm more from a pump that is 20%smaller and not nearly as efficient.

[Boss Exc.]

Nah...are you trying to tell me that these two machines that in all probability are replacing the S220 and S250 have 11 more inches of wheel base center wheel-to-center wheel than the current models:nono: I'm not saying its impossible but it is very unlikely. The S330 only has 48". A wheel base that long would destroy tires in a very short time. Please post the diagram if you have it available. I'm thinking tha ctual wheel base will be around 48.3" just like the current models and most every other OEM. Some laws of physics are just too tough to overcome.


AHHH!!!Digdeep I apologize AGAIN!Not sure where my head is at:hammerhead:.This what your looking for?.....Both SSL's...45.3 in.

[Digdeep]

AHHH!!!Digdeep I apologize AGAIN!Not sure where my head is at:hammerhead:.This what your looking for?.....Both SSL's...45.3 in.

No big deal. That seems more like it but that S650 wheel base is 3" shorter than the S250 (48.3") and the new model has a ROC that is 100lbs more. I can't wait to run one.

[SellingIron]

Bigger models are coming out. The only models bobcat is talking about right now are the S630/T630. bobcat is doing the fill in the gap thing..(?????) The S630 looks like its going to replace the S220. On paper s630 weights more, less tip ,less ROC, less HP more width. Each spec is not off by much. They compare it to the: 246C, 435/440, L180...It does look like there is going to be a small, medium and large frame machine...They are not saying much right now. I will see the line up in June in person..

[Digdeep]

I will see the line up in June in person..

Ahhh....Arizona in June:drinkup:

[SellingIron]

Ahhh....Arizona in June:drinkup:


No way!!!!! Atlanta!!!! Arizona would be nice. A quick flight to Las Vegas afterwards would bring back to many memories!!!!:weightlifter::clapping::dancing::hammerhead::confused::drinkup::drinkup::drinkup::drink up::drinkup::dizzy::sleeping: Pretty much in that order!!!!!

[Tigerotor77W]

AHHH!!!Digdeep I apologize AGAIN!Not sure where my head is at:hammerhead:.This what your looking for?.....Both SSL's...45.3 in.

It's okay, from me, too. :)

This is actually one inch more than I was guessing... I was thinking that these two models would be around 44 inches and the large frames either 48 or 51 (ballpark) -- but yeah, this means there's going to be three frame sizes. I can't wait to see what's coming. That being said, I agree with Ron... I would have preferred a better nomenclature! They go from no real meaning to real meaning on excavators, and now this. They could have gone back to the 700, 800, and 900 series -- ahhh! (And what is Bobcat's fascination with "M?" The excavators are also "M-series" now.)

It's interesting. When I visited Gwinner and met with an engineer back in 2007, he said that mid-size machines were coming next -- I presumed the S175 replacement, but I didn't think these would be out first.

[SiteSolutions]

I am confused and disappointed with the new loader nomenclature as well. Just when they were poised to have all their models easily understood, they do this. I think the "M" is for metric? As in, Metric Tonnes? That's my guess. But I have no guess as to what the significance of these new loader numbers is.

KSSS - I would like to try out a Case but the only Case machines in my area are 10 years old with 3000 hours or more on them and they look and perform like ?? Suffice it to say, I have never wanted to get near them, they're that ugly. I think there's an "authorized dealer" nearby but they deal in a lot of stuff, and don't seem to keep any compact Case inventory. JDSkid jump in here and help explain. Bobcat, JD, and Cat already have this market covered, and NH and Tak take up the slack.

[bobcat_ron]

I am confused and disappointed with the new loader nomenclature as well. Just when they were poised to have all their models easily understood, they do this. I think the "M" is for metric? As in, Metric Tonnes? That's my guess. But I have no guess as to what the significance of these new loader numbers is.




I think it's going back to the early days with the debut of the M600 loader Melroe first had, and Bobcat is feeling nostalgic about those early days, and maybe hoping they can relive the "good ole days".

I just hope the smoke clears and the Bobcat managers put the bongs down and stop drinking the bong water.

[Digdeep]

I am confused and disappointed with the new loader nomenclature as well. Just when they were poised to have all their models easily understood, they do this. I think the "M" is for metric? As in, Metric Tonnes? That's my guess. But I have no guess as to what the significance of these new loader numbers is.

KSSS - I would like to try out a Case but the only Case machines in my area are 10 years old with 3000 hours or more on them and they look and perform like ?? Suffice it to say, I have never wanted to get near them, they're that ugly. I think there's an "authorized dealer" nearby but they deal in a lot of stuff, and don't seem to keep any compact Case inventory. JDSkid jump in here and help explain. Bobcat, JD, and Cat already have this market covered, and NH and Tak take up the slack.

I guess we'll find out soon enough what the nomenclature means. I don't think it means "metric tons" because it still wouldn't add up to the reported ROCs of the two machines.

I think it is fair to say that other than Bobcat (and possibly CAT) on a 50 state level, most OEMs can now only claim regional strength as far as market share goes. Ultimately it all gets added up, but if the Northwest region for one OEM is only 3% and they are 15% in the Southeast you can see how there is a perceived brand weakness. Case is much stronger up here in WI than JD which is almost invisible. I'm sure it is reversed in your neck of the woods.

[SiteSolutions]

I think it's going back to the early days with the debut of the M600 loader Melroe first had, and Bobcat is feeling nostalgic about those early days, and maybe hoping they can relive the "good ole days".

I just hope the smoke clears and the Bobcat managers put the bongs down and stop drinking the bong water.

Yeah, the "M" doesn't make any sense to me on the loader names, but the M number on the mini-ex line seems to line up with the weight class of the machine. That what I was trying to say, that now that the excavator naming starts to be meaningful, they decide to screw up the loader naming.

[Digdeep]

Yeah, the "M" doesn't make any sense to me on the loader names, but the M number on the mini-ex line seems to line up with the weight class of the machine. That what I was trying to say, that now that the excavator naming starts to be meaningful, they decide to screw up the loader naming.

Dare to be different. They march to the beat of their own drum. :walking:

[Tigerotor77W]

the M number on the mini-ex line seems to line up with the weight class of the machine.

Exactly my point. And actually, the excavators are "M-series," but the model numbers are "Exx" -- where the "E," presumably, stands for "excavator" (which also makes sense). So... this thing with the loaders being "Mxxx"... "M" standing for multipurpose? Maybe? As DigDeep says, we'll just have to see...

[BigDigger]

wow.. :hammerhead:


What you thought I was gonna jump up and down and scream at the top of my lungs that I just love this machine and I need to have it? Come on you know me better than that.

Well Bobcat just about caught up to Cat in cab....I still prefer the split armrest since the arm rest moves with each joystick fore and aft. the LCD display is cool. They cost about 2 cents to make now-a-days so I am surprised they didn't do this before, but it's a nice touch.

Funny bobcat comes out with a new cab that sits a little forward like the cat C series and they call it a cab forward.....how many marketing gimmiks can they come up with....besides Chrysler used the crap out of the Cab forward moniker with the introduction of the Intrepid back in the 90's......

Hey Earl, somethin's different 'bout your machine......

yuuup Jack.....it's cuz my cab is more forward.....

You don't say Earl....what will kids come up with next....


Kidding aside, I actually like having that more upright position with a lower glass sill, visibility is unbelievable.....I think by and large Bobcat owners will like that panoramic feel, vs the sitting in a tub feel you get right now.


KSSS your screwed brother....looks like the Bobcat owners might have one up on you in Hydraulic Work Capability....

....$hit...means now I have to take attitude from Bobcat and Case owners now......Geez

[ksss]

KSSS your screwed brother....looks like the Bobcat owners might have one up on you in Hydraulic Work Capability....

....$hit...means now I have to take attitude from Bobcat and Case owners now......Geez


I will have to see that to believe it, but if its true, as long as BC keeps using those weak powerplants I will continue to have the torque curve advantage.:clapping:

[YellowDogSVC]

Kidding aside, I actually like having that more upright position with a lower glass sill, visibility is unbelievable.....I think by and large Bobcat owners will like that panoramic feel, vs the sitting in a tub feel you get right now.


The one thing I noticed immediately in the new CAT C series cabs was all the glass which let in all the S. Texas sun! One of the first things I do in my bobcats and in the CAT was/is cover the moon roof and I like it dark in the cabs. Makes it easier for the A/C to work, in my opinion. When it's 98 and there isn't a cloud in the sky, a white painted roof and a covered moon roof make it a little more comfortable to work all day.

[Junior M]

What you thought I was gonna jump up and down and scream at the top of my lungs that I just love this machine and I need to have it? Come on you know me better than that.

Well Bobcat just about caught up to Cat in cab....I still prefer the split armrest since the arm rest moves with each joystick fore and aft. the LCD display is cool. They cost about 2 cents to make now-a-days so I am surprised they didn't do this before, but it's a nice touch.

Funny bobcat comes out with a new cab that sits a little forward like the cat C series and they call it a cab forward.....how many marketing gimmiks can they come up with....besides Chrysler used the crap out of the Cab forward moniker with the introduction of the Intrepid back in the 90's......

Hey Earl, somethin's different 'bout your machine......

yuuup Jack.....it's cuz my cab is more forward.....

You don't say Earl....what will kids come up with next....


Kidding aside, I actually like having that more upright position with a lower glass sill, visibility is unbelievable.....I think by and large Bobcat owners will like that panoramic feel, vs the sitting in a tub feel you get right now.


KSSS your screwed brother....looks like the Bobcat owners might have one up on you in Hydraulic Work Capability....

....$hit...means now I have to take attitude from Bobcat and Case owners now......Geez
I was talking about you asking about interior pics when they were a page prior to your post, but you took it some place totally different!

isnt it stated somewhere in the pics about the controls being able to move forwards and backwards?

[bobcat_ron]

One of the first things I do in my bobcats and in the CAT was/is cover the moon roof and I like it dark in the cabs. Makes it easier for the A/C to work, in my opinion. When it's 98 and there isn't a cloud in the sky, a white painted roof and a covered moon roof make it a little more comfortable to work all day.


Amen to that!

[BigDigger]

I was talking about you asking about interior pics when they were a page prior to your post, but you took it some place totally different!

isnt it stated somewhere in the pics about the controls being able to move forwards and backwards?

Ahhh...sometimes subtlety doesn't translate well on here. Yeah I didn't have time to read 5 pages of thread to find the interior pics...glad they are there though.

Yes the joysticks move independantly, but the arm rest being a one piece design stays static. This is why I like the C series. the arm rest moves with the joystick since it's split they can be at different setting.....this is so that knuckle dragging Case fans can operate the machine if one arm is shorter than the other. The real positive to the Cat design is that usually the longer the arms the more room you take up, if you move the joysticks out it moves the safety bar with it giving you more room all around....though it appears that perhaps the bobcat might do that too....but it's hard to say. If it's frame mounted safety bar your stuck, if it's a seat mounted one perhaps it will work.

In the cat you can move the seat all the way back, and then the joysticks all the way forward which moves the safety bar forward with it....TONS of room....

The other thing worth a million bucks is the air ride seat....it has such a vast amount of travel that it's VERY hard to bottom it out if set to your weight.....I don't know if the bobcat will have air ride, but if it does you Bobcat lovers should be excited....it will add years to your life in rough terrain.

[Junior M]

Ahhh...sometimes subtlety doesn't translate well on here. Yeah I didn't have time to read 5 pages of thread to find the interior pics...glad they are there though.

Yes the joysticks move independantly, but the arm rest being a one piece design stays static. This is why I like the C series. the arm rest moves with the joystick since it's split they can be at different setting.....this is so that knuckle dragging Case fans can operate the machine if one arm is shorter than the other. The real positive to the Cat design is that usually the longer the arms the more room you take up, if you move the joysticks out it moves the safety bar with it giving you more room all around....though it appears that perhaps the bobcat might do that too....but it's hard to say. If it's frame mounted safety bar your stuck, if it's a seat mounted one perhaps it will work.

In the cat you can move the seat all the way back, and then the joysticks all the way forward which moves the safety bar forward with it....TONS of room....

The other thing worth a million bucks is the air ride seat....it has such a vast amount of travel that it's VERY hard to bottom it out if set to your weight.....I don't know if the bobcat will have air ride, but if it does you Bobcat lovers should be excited....it will add years to your life in rough terrain.
I swear I read that the joysticks in this Mseries will be set up the same way, with being able to move them back and forth..

And I really, really really, (along with my back) hope they put air ride seats in the skids, now the last time I was running the 190 the seat would only bottom out if I went hauling ass over a stump, I guess Sops was right, you just have to have it set up right. And this one was. That was the only time I was happy to run the skid for long periods of time..

[bobcat_ron]

Knuckle dragging Case fans...that's a good one!

[BigDigger]

I swear I read that the joysticks in this Mseries will be set up the same way, with being able to move them back and forth..

And I really, really really, (along with my back) hope they put air ride seats in the skids, now the last time I was running the 190 the seat would only bottom out if I went hauling ass over a stump, I guess Sops was right, you just have to have it set up right. And this one was. That was the only time I was happy to run the skid for long periods of time..

JR read what I wrote carefully.....YES THE BOBCAT HAS ADJUSTABLE JOYSTICKS....FORE AND AFT TRAVEL.... :waving: :drinkup:


RE the air ride....yeah....it's easier on the Anus....you will need it after your are done paying for that new machine

[Junior M]

JR read what I wrote carefully.....YES THE BOBCAT HAS ADJUSTABLE JOYSTICKS....FORE AND AFT TRAVEL.... :waving: :drinkup:


RE the air ride....yeah....it's easier on the Anus....you will need it after your are done paying for that new machine
:hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead: I misunderstood or mis read it..

And I'll deal with the suspension seat for a while.. :laugh:

[SiteSolutions]

Maybe "cab-forward" will make it easier on your back? I've got long legs, so my seat is pushed all the way to the back of the cab. I find myself leaning forward all day to get a good view of what is going on. Maybe if it is all moved forward, I can sit upright and still see?

[SellingIron]

Seat movement went from 4 to 6 inches (Front to Back) Looks like zerks in the end of the pins.

[BigDigger]

Maybe "cab-forward" will make it easier on your back? I've got long legs, so my seat is pushed all the way to the back of the cab. I find myself leaning forward all day to get a good view of what is going on. Maybe if it is all moved forward, I can sit upright and still see?

That's an interesting point...

[John K]

Sitesolutions,

Have you been surviving up there in Huntsville ok?:)

[SiteSolutions]

Sitesolutions,

Have you been surviving up there in Huntsville ok?:)

Been a long, crappy winter. Now the phone is ringing a little but it wont stop raining long enough to do the work I've got lined up! :cry:

But things are at least picking up a little.

[2109 Stang]

Wow. I check in to Lawnsite to see what's happening and now I've spent thirty minutes not studying for finals in five days. :)

Something must be amiss when I reply to practically every single post in a thread...



I never figured you'd be one for looks...



These things have been on the drawing boards for at least the past five years... cobbled together? And "horrible visibility"? If anything,
a) there are new directives aimed squarely at improving visibility -- and Bobcat will have needed to design the machine with those in account.
b) the rear tower seems lower and the rear section seems lower overall. That may mean better -- or at worst slightly-worse -- visibility. But horrible is a bit premature.



Disagree. They look like the S250/S300 loader arms. There's very little that reminds me of an 873G loader arm.



No, not "always." Even now you don't see many Bobcats with that option.



Deere and NH have been the historic manufacturers who adopted this approach. Cat adopted it for the C-series. (Bigben mentioned this as well.)



With that long of an engine bay, I wouldn't be surprised if the added length was to accommodate a longitudinal-mounted engine, but this is no less speculative than Junior's comment about the crappy visibility.X2, I like this model better than any other previous Bobcat.

[dirtybiz]

Wow, i just read through this whole post of bobcat/case bashing to find no more pic's!!! Anyone know when these are supposed to be out? Would love to try one out.

I agree with whoever said they look like the old 873's. I spent many hours in one, and that's exactly what i was thinking before i even read that post. Look's like they have definately improved the cab's, now we just need some more hp!!

[Digdeep]

Wow, i just read through this whole post of bobcat/case bashing to find no more pic's!!! Anyone know when these are supposed to be out? Would love to try one out.

I agree with whoever said they look like the old 873's. I spent many hours in one, and that's exactly what i was thinking before i even read that post. Look's like they have definately improved the cab's, now we just need some more hp!!

HP looks to be near identical to the S220 and S250. The S630 should be a good one.

I think the two track machines are a little low in hp. Especially the T650. It's hp to weight ratio is in between the T140 and the T190, not exactly brutes.

[Lawn_General]

Here's a copy of the email I just sent to the Bobcat webmaster...

Hey check out what I found...www.bobcat.eu

[Junior M]

Hey check out what I found...www.bobcat.eu
http://www.bobcat.eu/bobcat/eu-en/products/Excavator/444.page?

http://www.bobcat.eu/bobcat/eu-en/products/Excavator/E55W.page?#

And look what I found? :confused:

[Tigerotor77W]

http://www.bobcat.eu/bobcat/eu-en/products/Excavator/444.page?

http://www.bobcat.eu/bobcat/eu-en/products/Excavator/E55W.page?#

And look what I found? :confused:

The 444 was never brought to the States in Bobcat livery (i.e. paint job) and never will be. It was sold as the IR 1225 excavator but in very little numbers.

The E55W is a Doosan model that (I believe) is or will be sold in the US in the M-series family.

[Digdeep]

The 444 was never brought to the States in Bobcat livery (i.e. paint job) and never will be. It was sold as the IR 1225 excavator but in very little numbers.

I believe that the 442 and the 444 were both German built Schaeff machines. Terex sells them as the TC75 and TC125.

[Tigerotor77W]

I believe that the 442 and the 444 were both German built Schaeff machines. Terex sells them as the TC75 and TC125.

Correct. I-R's was the ZX-125, not the 1225 as I originally said...

http://www.buyerzone.com/industrial/excavators/rbic-ingersoll-rand-excavator.html

The ZX-75 is the Bobcat 442/Schaeff HR32.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb6521/is_200704/ai_n25872475/?tag=content-inner;col1

[coopers]

I've been a little busy lately so I just came across this post; it's very interesting to read these and it's obvious just how popular skidsteers are on this site. We never get this kind of arguing over excavators or backhoes, loaders or dozers. I don't know if that means the skidsteer is the most common machine used w/ everyone here and that's their money maker or if the rift between companies w/ other construction equipment isn't that big of a deal. I personally don't have any interest because I haven't touched a skidsteer in over 3-4 years. I look forward to hearing people's opinions once they've actually tried it.

[WillieWonka1850]

Wow like the looks of those new Bobcats! Call me crazy but I do.
Can't wait to check one out but the Bobcat Dealer up near me never gets anything good in. At least not for a while after something new comes out. The Detroit or Kalamazoo store gets all the good machines. They haven't even got the new Toolcat 5610 yet!

But yeah good looking Bobcats. I figured they were gonna look like the CAT C series.
See? Bobcat's trying to compete with CAT.

[coopers]

I just saw a new E80 excavator in Bobcat's lot. Anyone going to try one of those out?

[Junior M]

I just saw a new E80 excavator in Bobcat's lot. Anyone going to try one of those out?
I wanna try out a E35, if that freakin clearing job ever comes through I'll see if I can get my hands on an E80

[coopers]

Yeah Junior,

I was gunna ask ya to report back if you can get one on a job. Take pics inside and out. I was impressed w/ what I saw and that's saying a lot because I hate Bobcat mini's. Now I only saw the outside so I'd have to get in one and use it but there may be hope. :) What's the difference w/ these E models? They eventually replacing their line w/ these guys? They look much better.

[Junior M]

Yeah Junior,

I was gunna ask ya to report back if you can get one on a job. Take pics inside and out. I was impressed w/ what I saw and that's saying a lot because I hate Bobcat mini's. Now I only saw the outside so I'd have to get in one and use it but there may be hope. :) What's the difference w/ these E models? They eventually replacing their line w/ these guys? They look much better.
they pretty much changed the samethings that are changed when a new series comes out..

check out www.bobcat.com for better info on it, if its even freakin working, piece of crap site...


And I'll have to get tons of pics, tons and tons, whoever the first one on here to demo an Mseries needs to get tons of pics..

[Skidsteerman]

I've been a little busy lately so I just came across this post; it's very interesting to read these and it's obvious just how popular skidsteers are on this site. We never get this kind of arguing over excavators or backhoes, loaders or dozers. I don't know if that means the skidsteer is the most common machine used w/ everyone here and that's their money maker or if the rift between companies w/ other construction equipment isn't that big of a deal. I personally don't have any interest because I haven't touched a skidsteer in over 3-4 years. I look forward to hearing people's opinions once they've actually tried it.

We handle both large iron and small sslders line together. They are night and day different on how they're handled when dealing with contractors, pretty much on every level. Not sure why either but sslder stuff is much more intense even dealing with a contractor whom owns large iron as well. I know the large iron sales guys hate dealing with the sslder line - PITA to them. Most customers tend to be more high maintenance owning sslders then big iron as well.

I like it because no two days are EVER alike and I love tangoing with the competition, keeps life interesting.:dizzy:

[Tigerotor77W]

Edit: I didn't want to keep my mouth shut but should probably do so anyhow for chivalry's sake.

[SellingIron]

Just ran the E35 and it is nice. Lots of room Plenty of power and the angle blade is on the joystick and really easy to use..Just saw the new virtual display and I think a back up camera will be able to connect to it. It would turn on when backing up..Really top off the line display..M-Series cabs are really nice and the standard susp. seat worked really well. Other susp. seat should be available as an option soon. Lots of room getting in and out of the cab and a new HD step for the front.

[WillieWonka1850]

I'm going up towards Bridgeport Friday and I might stop out and see if they have any of those new Skid Steers or Excavators. But the way things go at Carleton Equipment Bridgeport Store I doubt it. I really wanna check one out because we've been thinking of trading in our old Case 1845 seeing how jobs are picking up it may be a good idea.

SellingIron how did the E35 compare to the 430? (if you've ran a 430 before)

[SellingIron]

SellingIron how did the E35 compare to the 430? (if you've ran a 430 before)[/QUOTE]



E35 is better for the new features they added. Auto idle, Auto shift which works really well and you can't tell when the machine shifts into low or high. Very quick and nimble while working.

[YellowDogSVC]

SellingIron how did the E35 compare to the 430? (if you've ran a 430 before)



E35 is better for the new features they added. Auto idle, Auto shift which works really well and you can't tell when the machine shifts into low or high. Very quick and nimble while working.[/QUOTE]

I'd be curious to see how it compares to a 335? I am in the process of getting a 335 but nothing is final and I could look at an M series but didn't think it was heavy enough.

[Junior M]

E35 is better for the new features they added. Auto idle, Auto shift which works really well and you can't tell when the machine shifts into low or high. Very quick and nimble while working.

I'd be curious to see how it compares to a 335? I am in the process of getting a 335 but nothing is final and I could look at an M series but didn't think it was heavy enough.[/QUOTE]
Isnt the E35 comparable to the 331?

[Carleton Equipment Co.]

For those interested, there is a guy on youtube that has some vids of the S630, T630 and E35. You can also get there by doing a google search for T630. The youtube result will show up on the 1st page.

[bobcat_ron]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eah7IMuEA7A

Very quiet sounding.

[WillieWonka1850]

I like that S630, but its a Radius lift. The S650 looks really nice for Vertical lift.
I think I smell a replacement for our Case!

Well maybe not.

[bobcat_ron]

There's no sense in buying new anymore, even now with the deals on equipment, and with the new Bobcat series, who wants to be the guinea pig for a model that's yet to be tested in the real world environment with some pretty screwed up operators behind the controls.

My advice is buy used and save so much money on the depreciation costs and insurance to cover it.

[WillieWonka1850]

Thats why I said "Well maybe not"
Were inching toward a used Cat or used or Case. My Dad's Case 1845C was actually bough with Demoed with 93 hours on it, back in September 1999.
That Caterpillar 246C I demoed last March was actually a Demo with 110 hours.
I can't remember clearly but I think he said around $36,000 but that doesn't sound right. I know it was a good deal.

[YellowDogSVC]

I jumped into the CAT C series before all the kinks worked out and I was a guinea pig for a few months. It was not worth the frustration even though the CAT concept of a cab was incredible as well as the ride and comfort. production-wise, my 10 year old bobcat design (k series s330) is just as productive or more than the CAT 272c. Comfort-wise, not so much but I make do. If the AC blew harder and colder and I could keep more dust out, I wouldn't trade out of my K series.

[WillieWonka1850]

What sold me on the C series cab is how the controls move with the seat so when you go over a bump, you don't make your controls don't go crazy. Happened too many times on the Case. Being a Landscaper, you never know what kind of terrain you can encounter.
On The Cat, you don't have to worry about your controls going crazy.

[YellowDogSVC]

What sold me on the C series cab is how the controls move with the seat so when you go over a bump, you don't make your controls don't go crazy. Happened too many times on the Case. Being a Landscaper, you never know what kind of terrain you can encounter.
On The Cat, you don't have to worry about your controls going crazy.

I spend a great deal of time doing grapple work and cleanup for a tree company. Our terrain is rocky, hilly, full of holes, stumps, etc. Though the C series Cat cab was comfortable, i can't say that the controls moving with with the seat helped that much. In fact, I felt like i was being ejected quite a bit and actually "feel" more stable in the Bobcat though the ride is admittedly rougher on my posterior. Having ride control is a BIG help even if it's a pain to engage and disengage. I actually like being strapped in tight in the Bobcat and though I thought they hand controls in the Bobcat would be hard to get used to, I was mistaken. I like them better than the CAT controls even if the CAT controls were a little more comfortable because of the adjustment factor.

Pic is common of the terrain I grapple on as far a rolling hills but this one didn't have many rocks except on the ledges. Ride control helps more than moving joysticks for me.

[Skidsteerman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eah7IMuEA7A

Very quiet sounding.

Probably because it's at an idle.

That wanna be operator should give it up and walk away from the unit. If it's a sales rep at a Bobcat intro - give it up.:laugh:

[Canon Landscaping]

I spend a great deal of time doing grapple work and cleanup for a tree company. Our terrain is rocky, hilly, full of holes, stumps, etc. Though the C series Cat cab was comfortable, i can't say that the controls moving with with the seat helped that much. In fact, I felt like i was being ejected quite a bit and actually "feel" more stable in the Bobcat though the ride is admittedly rougher on my posterior. Having ride control is a BIG help even if it's a pain to engage and disengage. I actually like being strapped in tight in the Bobcat and though I thought they hand controls in the Bobcat would be hard to get used to, I was mistaken. I like them better than the CAT controls even if the CAT controls were a little more comfortable because of the adjustment factor.

Pic is common of the terrain I grapple on as far a rolling hills but this one didn't have many rocks except on the ledges. Ride control helps more than moving joysticks for me.


Why is it so hard for everyone to give Cat the credit they deserve. Is it because they are usually 10k more than a comparable machine and most guys don't buy because of that but wish they did? I think the c series is all around the best machine on the market and if you are the owner and operator the comfort is worth every extra penny. I just don't get why it is so hard to accept that the largest heavy equipment co in the world can make a good skid steer.

[YellowDogSVC]

Why is it so hard for everyone to give Cat the credit they deserve. Is it because they are usually 10k more than a comparable machine and most guys don't buy because of that but wish they did? I

I owned a 272c with all options except 2 speed and it was one of the biggest mistakes I ever made in the purchasing dept. That is why I don't give CAT all the credit it deserves. I personally think that CAT over hyped it's A/C and cooling system. It also came out with a 90 hp machine that had less displacement than a comparable 81 hp machine and barely more torque though I will admit that CAT probably used the hp better because of its software. Like I said, there were things I liked about the CAT but reliability and up-time were not one of things I felt good about. After putting nearly 11,000 hrs into skidsteers, I can say that I had more down time with my CAT 272c than I did with 9 other Bobcat SSL's with the exception of an 863c series machine that blew o-rings every other week. I won't even mention some of the issues my local competitors dealt with because of their CAT SSL's. Maybe it's just the local market? I like a lot of CAT stuff but I don't think the SSL's are the best thing out there.

[Tigerotor77W]

Probably because it's at an idle.

That wanna be operator should give it up and walk away from the unit. If it's a sales rep at a Bobcat intro - give it up.:laugh:

Agree that it's at idle or close to it.

You better be joking about the operator being a sales rep.

[stuvecorp]

Why is it so hard for everyone to give Cat the credit they deserve. Is it because they are usually 10k more than a comparable machine and most guys don't buy because of that but wish they did? I think the c series is all around the best machine on the market and if you are the owner and operator the comfort is worth every extra penny. I just don't get why it is so hard to accept that the largest heavy equipment co in the world can make a good skid steer.

:rolleyes: .

[cat2]

Die hard Bobcat fan here, but after looking at pics. I highly doubt my next skid will be bobcat. I thought the new bobcats would really be something great, boy was I wrong. So ugly for one, and the inside of the cab looks like a space ship. My next one probably will be case or gehl

[Duffster]

Why is it so hard for everyone to give Cat the credit they deserve. Is it because they are usually 10k more than a comparable machine and most guys don't buy because of that but wish they did? I think the c series is all around the best machine on the market and if you are the owner and operator the comfort is worth every extra penny. I just don't get why it is so hard to accept that the largest heavy equipment co in the world can make a good skid steer.

Build a machine that is worth $10k more would be a good start.

I have NEVER been impressed with cat skidsteers.

[Bleed Green]

Actually after looking at the cabs on the new Bobcats again, think they look kind of interesting and unique. I kind of like their look.

[WillieWonka1850]

I was reading about the Cabs and if you get the SJC controls, they move up and down with the seat, and can adjust each stick forward or back.
That just screams Caterpillar.
Maybe these new BobCATs will be pretty nice.

[ksss]

Why is it so hard for everyone to give Cat the credit they deserve. Is it because they are usually 10k more than a comparable machine and most guys don't buy because of that but wish they did? I think the c series is all around the best machine on the market and if you are the owner and operator the comfort is worth every extra penny. I just don't get why it is so hard to accept that the largest heavy equipment co in the world can make a good skid steer.

Thats because they have put together a halfassed product (my opinion of course). What do they get credit for? Having the least amount of engine torque in the entire industry? Wheel torque is nonexistant.

I am not saying that some don't find value in them, I think it depends on what you need and expect out of a machine, but best in the industry is a big claim, and when I stepped out of a C series that statement did not even cross my mind.

They have a nice cab, but so does CASE and now Bobcat all are pressurized and comfortable I am sure.

CAT certainly has the capacity to build a great skid steer and maybe some day they will. The C series is not it.

[WillieWonka1850]

I have to agree with Canon, here.
Cat makes one of the best Skid Steers on the market. Its not because of the C Series Cab (although it is nice), its just what you get in a Cat. Just ask Ron. I don't just like Cat for the C Series Cab (I'd take a B2 series any day), their very smooth, I've tried others and some you can barley steer (cough cough New Holland cough cough). Some Cats are better than our Case 1845C! The 246C (the one I've demoed and were thinking of buying) is the smallest C series but its powerful, 72hp at your hands. I feel like I have more power in a 246C than I do a Bobcat S220. But thats my view.

One thing I would miss, is the Cummins Diesel in the 1845C.
But I'm leaving the decision to my Dad. It's his Landscaping business, his money.

Michigan CAT is giving us a good deal on a 246C,
2007, 284 hours, Demo, switchable Case or Cat controls, Power Bob-Tach, $36,000

[SellingIron]

Cat2, Your not a die hard bobcat fan if you look at picture and decide that its not for you just on looks. When I saw the pictures at first, I was like what the hell is this thing. Then I sat inside and realized why the machine looks the way it does. You can see pretty much everything around you.. Sit in one first then tell us what you think. If your lucky , your local dealership will order some. I don't see alot of that happening right now..

[YellowDogSVC]

I remember a few years back when my wife complained about the new Ford trucks. "their ugly she said". I bought a newer f350 and she drives it more than me! She loves it now.

[WillieWonka1850]

I remember a few years back when my wife complained about the new Ford trucks. "their ugly she said". I bought a newer f350 and she drives it more than me! She loves it now.
I've never though these things were ugly. I think they look better than the current Bobcats. A lot better. Hopefully Carleton equipment in Saginaw we'll get some in soon.
But it seems like they never get any new stuff until months after its been out!
But basically, I love the looks of the new M-series.
Though, the rear door could use some work.

[jefftb]

I would not know what a CAT is like other than the one I briefly operated on my local dealer's flagship store parking lot. I've tried to see what a CAT was like on two different occasions and been unimpressed with their attitude. I contacted Michigan CAT about a used machine they were listing. No one ever returned either my call or email.

I contacted my dealer's local area rep and left him a VM that I wanted to both demo and get a quote on a new 262C. That was over three weeks ago and the person I left the request with has never contacted my back.

I did contact the Georgia/North Carolina CAT dealerships about some used equipment and both emailed me back the very next day.

The cabs are plush but I can not see in any way that a CAT skid steer should cost that much more than their competition. Period. These are skid steers, not $200,000+ excavators or dozers.

What can they possibly put in them or engineer in them that causes that? Point to it. Show me where they exceed the competition in every respect because for the price difference they should beat the competition in every regard, every time. But they don't. Why?

I have to agree with Canon, here.
Cat makes one of the best Skid Steers on the market. Its not because of the C Series Cab (although it is nice), its just what you get in a Cat. Just ask Ron. I don't just like Cat for the C Series Cab (I'd take a B2 series any day), their very smooth, I've tried others and some you can barley steer (cough cough New Holland cough cough).
Michigan CAT is giving us a good deal on a 246C,
2007, 284 hours, Demo, switchable Case or Cat controls, Power Bob-Tach, $36,000

[ksss]

I remember a few years back when my wife complained about the new Ford trucks. "their ugly she said". I bought a newer f350 and she drives it more than me! She loves it now.


I would not discount a machine simply on its looks. Its productivity, its reliability and value are what matter at least to me.

[Tigerotor77W]

Wheel torque is nonexistant.

I'm really curious about this. I think there's more drawbar pull than the anti-stall makes operators feel... I wish there were a good way for someone to do a test of this and put it to rest once and for all.

I know one manufacturer did some testing at Nebraska for drawbar pull, but I don't know anyone in engineering to ask about results. I think some transparency would be nice.

[Digdeep]

The cabs are plush but I can not see in any way that a CAT skid steer should cost that much more than their competition. Period. These are skid steers, not $200,000+ excavators or dozers.

What can they possibly put in them or engineer in them that causes that? Point to it. Show me where they exceed the competition in every respect because for the price difference they should beat the competition in every regard, every time. But they don't. Why?

I'm not a big CAT fan and I'm not arguing either for them or against them but I think some of you guys are seeing something entirely different than I am. I have two friends who still sell for the local Bobcat dealership that I used to sell for as well. They've always complained that they are in a dogfight with the local CAT dealer Fabco everytime they go up against them. CAT has beaten them on price many times and still continues to do so. I know that the CAT dealer right next to us in MN, Ziegler is also very agressive.

Besides, CAT must not be too bad if Bobcat just came out with a few changes to their new machine that smack entirely of CAT- throttle located by the door handle, joysticks that move with the seat, air ride seat, escape handles for the front door right where CAT has theirs, door shaped very similarly to CAT's C Series, pressurized cabs. Seems to me that CAT has led the way with quite a few trends since coming out with a skid steer- pilot controls in skids, foot throttles, metal face seals in the axles, variable speed cooling fans, load sensing piston auxillary pumps, and some of the others I mentioned above, e.g. pressurized cabs, air ride seats, etc.

[YellowDogSVC]

I'm really curious about this. I think there's more drawbar pull than the anti-stall makes operators feel... I wish there were a good way for someone to do a test of this and put it to rest once and for all.

I know one manufacturer did some testing at Nebraska for drawbar pull, but I don't know anyone in engineering to ask about results. I think some transparency would be nice.

For large frame SSL's back a CASE 465 series III up to a CAT 272c and hook a chain up and do a tug of war. Joking but not too much! Someone can post a video.

Do the same thing with other brands and we can see if the torque at the wheels is comparable. Weight-wise, the machines are on par, right?

[ksss]

For large frame SSL's back a CASE 465 series III up to a CAT 272c and hook a chain up and do a tug of war. Joking but not too much! Someone can post a video.

Do the same thing with other brands and we can see if the torque at the wheels is comparable. Weight-wise, the machines are on par, right?

The 465 weighs about 500 pounds more, although up to 1000 pounds of counterweight can be added to that machine.

I am sure the destroking/antiwork/antioperator valving affects the wheel torque. The CAT R&D guy who posted here a shortwhile before he, like Jimmy Hoffa disappeared and is likely being used as backfill somewhere, said that they had a torque problem in their machines. How can you not run one and come to the same conclusion? The only thing I can think of is you never ran anything more powerful, or your not accomplishing tasks that require a lot of torque, in which case you don't know what you don't have, because you don't need it. It was obvious to me and my operator, and apparently CAT R&D is aware of the problem as well (assuming that you believe the guy on here was a CAT guy, which I think he was), why CAT fans on here refuse to acknowledge what CAT themselves or at least a CAT rep acknowledges, I don't know. CAT is giving up about 1/3 less displacement and about 65 foot pounds, pretty significant when you talking about engines making less than 300 foot pounds. Deere is not far behind CASE at 254 and making that out of less cubic inches of displacement than does CAT. So it is possible to make more out of less, CAT apparently makes a choice not to. CAT has the capacity to pour more resources at a skid steer platform than does every other OEM combined. Yet the C series is what you get for that type of available resources? Come on. :confused:

[YellowDogSVC]

The 465 weighs about 500 pounds more, although up to 1000 pounds of counterweight can be added to that machine.

So it is possible to make more out of less, CAT apparently makes a choice not to. CAT has the capacity to pour more resources at a skid steer platform than does every other OEM combined. Yet the C series is what you get for that type of available resources? Come on. :confused:

I have asked the same questions. Maybe CAT wanted its power to go to it's piston pumps for auxiliary hydraulics. Seems to me they can make a lot of money selling these things as tool carriers and leave the digging to higher torque machines. I have no clue and it's above my pay grade to speculate much more than I do now.

I am probably one of those guys who doesn't know what he's missing because I have only used CAT and Bobcat in as far as skid steer loaders go. I'd don't find I need much more pushing power than I have now but I'd like to have as much engine torque as possible to keep my hydro pump working. I don't think Bobcat's gear pump, however, is affected by torque as much as rpms but I could be way off. Does someone know the answer to that?

[Tigerotor77W]

For large frame SSL's back a CASE 465 series III up to a CAT 272c and hook a chain up and do a tug of war.

This wouldn't be much of a controlled test -- checking for proper pressures, speeds, etc, but I would be intrigued to see the result. The question is how to get machines into this situation... most of us aren't that close to each other (proximity) on this site, and I know that most dealers won't want to let me "demo" their machine in this fashion and then publish the results... anyone have ideas?

I am sure the destroking/antiwork/antioperator valving affects the wheel torque. The CAT R&D guy who posted here a shortwhile before he, like Jimmy Hoffa disappeared and is likely being used as backfill somewhere, said that they had a torque problem in their machines. How can you not run one and come to the same conclusion? The only thing I can think of is you never ran anything more powerful, or your not accomplishing tasks that require a lot of torque, in which case you don't know what you don't have, because you don't need it. It was obvious to me and my operator, and apparently CAT R&D is aware of the problem as well (assuming that you believe the guy on here was a CAT guy, which I think he was), why CAT fans on here refuse to acknowledge what CAT themselves or at least a CAT rep acknowledges, I don't know. CAT is giving up about 1/3 less displacement and about 65 foot pounds, pretty significant when you talking about engines making less than 300 foot pounds. Deere is not far behind CASE at 254 and making that out of less cubic inches of displacement than does CAT. So it is possible to make more out of less, CAT apparently makes a choice not to. CAT has the capacity to pour more resources at a skid steer platform than does every other OEM combined. Yet the C series is what you get for that type of available resources? Come on. :confused:

First, kaiser, I think the questions were directed at me and not at Yellowdog... he's mentioned before that his 272C seemed light on torque.

For your points:

1) I think it's hard to say that one machine is perceptibly more powerful than another without also giving a speed at which this perception comes into play. For instance, based on the engine and powertrain, it could be that your 465 and 440 develop the most torque around, say, 5 mph (WOT). Cat's system might be able to put out more torque, but this may happen at, say, 2 mph. Where you might do most of your pushing and have gotten using to pushing a certain amount at a certain speed, that might not be Cat's maximum torque. Citing maximum torque numbers can therefore be somewhat misleading. So far, I'm only arguing on the basis of the end result. If you look only at engine torque on the 465 Series III, that 288 ft-lbs figure is ar 1,300 RPM... given that you're sitting up at, say, 1,800 RPM most of the time, it'll take quite a load to bog the engine down to 1,300 (and keep it there). Cat's speed at peak torque isn't listed, but suppose it's 1,600 RPM. If that's the case, then the anti-stall will govern the engine down to that speed, which is approximately this 215 ft-lbs number, which may or may not be more than the torque (at that speed) that the 465 makes.

The bottom line is this: while the peak torque on other brands may be more, it's hard to say that at a certain speed the Cat has less torque. There are more intricate arguments here (and I suspect that if AWJ is reading this he'll challenge what I'm saying), but at the same time, it's difficult to quantify skid-steer production -- even if we're looking just at one or two numbers (like torque).

2) I've run a 90XT (long ago) when it still had the big "90XT" text (before the change to the small 90XT text). I had run a 246 (A-series) not too long before that, and honestly, I can't tell you which one seemed to have more "power." The 90XT felt more grounded, but the 246B didn't really lack in power, either; I could spin wheels grab full buckets, and do what I asked pretty easily -- all without stalling. They're two different size classes of machines, and I'm sure that I was not getting anywhere near close to either machine's full potential, but in some rather heavy dirt (it was wet both -- separate -- times I tried the machines), both felt pretty similar.

3) The Deere torque is something interesting... I'm curious if AWJ has thoughts on this, because as he's said before, torque is directly related to displacement.

4) Cat's engineering decisions are, simply put, a marvel of every type. I have neither the experience nor the authority to be able to describe why they did what they did or how they come to arrive at certain decisions, but regardless, they must be doing something right -- they wouldn't be #2 or #3 in SSL/CTL sales if they weren't. [Edit: this is to say that they're not building a dud, not to say that "Well they're #2 so they must be 100% correct." I don't know how the decision process works, but I have trust that it's still moving in the right direction.)

Before all the people who know what they're talking about start to tear apart this post... remember that I have no idea where Cat's peak torque is at. I'm just saying that there's a large part of the picture that "peak torque" alone doesn't tell us.

[ksss]

This wouldn't be much of a controlled test -- checking for proper pressures, speeds, etc, but I would be intrigued to see the result. The question is how to get machines into this situation... most of us aren't that close to each other (proximity) on this site, and I know that most dealers won't want to let me "demo" their machine in this fashion and then publish the results... anyone have ideas?



First, kaiser, I think the questions were directed at me and not at Yellowdog... he's mentioned before that his 272C seemed light on torque.

For your points:

1) I think it's hard to say that one machine is perceptibly more powerful than another without also giving a speed at which this perception comes into play. For instance, based on the engine and powertrain, it could be that your 465 and 440 develop the most torque around, say, 5 mph (WOT). Cat's system might be able to put out more torque, but this may happen at, say, 2 mph. Where you might do most of your pushing and have gotten using to pushing a certain amount at a certain speed, that might not be Cat's maximum torque. Citing maximum torque numbers can therefore be somewhat misleading. So far, I'm only arguing on the basis of the end result. If you look only at engine torque on the 465 Series III, that 288 ft-lbs figure is ar 1,300 RPM... given that you're sitting up at, say, 1,800 RPM most of the time, it'll take quite a load to bog the engine down to 1,300 (and keep it there). Cat's speed at peak torque isn't listed, but suppose it's 1,600 RPM. If that's the case, then the anti-stall will govern the engine down to that speed, which is approximately this 215 ft-lbs number, which may or may not be more than the torque (at that speed) that the 465 makes.

The bottom line is this: while the peak torque on other brands may be more, it's hard to say that at a certain speed the Cat has less torque. There are more intricate arguments here (and I suspect that if AWJ is reading this he'll challenge what I'm saying), but at the same time, it's difficult to quantify skid-steer production -- even if we're looking just at one or two numbers (like torque).

2) I've run a 90XT (long ago) when it still had the big "90XT" text (before the change to the small 90XT text). I had run a 246 (A-series) not too long before that, and honestly, I can't tell you which one seemed to have more "power." The 90XT felt more grounded, but the 246B didn't really lack in power, either; I could spin wheels grab full buckets, and do what I asked pretty easily -- all without stalling. They're two different size classes of machines, and I'm sure that I was not getting anywhere near close to either machine's full potential, but in some rather heavy dirt (it was wet both -- separate -- times I tried the machines), both felt pretty similar.

3) The Deere torque is something interesting... I'm curious if AWJ has thoughts on this, because as he's said before, torque is directly related to displacement.

4) Cat's engineering decisions are, simply put, a marvel of every type. I have neither the experience nor the authority to be able to describe why they did what they did or how they come to arrive at certain decisions, but regardless, they must be doing something right -- they wouldn't be #2 or #3 in SSL/CTL sales if they weren't. [Edit: this is to say that they're not building a dud, not to say that "Well they're #2 so they must be 100% correct." I don't know how the decision process works, but I have trust that it's still moving in the right direction.)

Before all the people who know what they're talking about start to tear apart this post... remember that I have no idea where Cat's peak torque is at. I'm just saying that there's a large part of the picture that "peak torque" alone doesn't tell us.


Concerning peak torque I know where your going, and since CAT choses not to put out their full specs you cant compare. I will say that higher displacement motors like CASE make their rated torque at a lower rpm than a small displacment like CAT. The torque curve tends to be much more flat than does that of a small displacement engine. Distance between peak torque and usable torque is small. I am speaking in general terms here here. I will go out on a limb here and say that the antistall destroking pump is in place to protect the machine from having to lug, it serves several purposes but, with such low "peak" torque it would feel very underpowered without the antistall.

CAT's engineering is a marvel is a statement that I cant fathom. I would say from the user end it is far from a marvel. However I acknowledge that you have had access to parts of CAT that most of us don't see. IMHO if the C series reflects the marvel that is CAT skid steer engineering, than I guess I would need to redfine for myself what marvel means.

As far as CAT's position in the market and how that relates to the machine. I think your over stating it. CAT is a player in any market that they chose to compete in. Is that due to superior machines? I say except for a few lines, no. Many buyers and there are several on this forum that run CAT because they want the affiliation with CAT. Others have an established relationship with CAT and they will continue to buy CAT. I would also again mention that the largest owner of new CAT machines is CAT rental. I would not equate the machines capability with its ability to sell, especially in this situation. If you painted a C series and put Mustang decals on it, would the sale numbers be the same? Of course not. There are reasons people buy machines and they don't always involve productivity.

I know that torque both engine and wheel torque don't tell the entire story on how a machine performs, it is mearly an indictor, but is it an important one. HP although it is thrown around a lot as a way of indicating size, means very little. Consider my analogy of the half ton gas pickup making 300 hp and a Duramax making the same 300 hp. Same hp but the torque rating makes all the difference. I don't want to rehash all that torque discussion we already have had, just reestablishing a small point

I will make one last inquiry. Why doesn't CAT publish any of these specs? Engine torque, wheel torque? and there are others?

Tiger none of this is meant with any maliciousness it is only for the means of a discussion.

[Tigerotor77W]

I will go out on a limb here and say that the antistall destroking pump is in place to protect the machine from having to lug, it serves several purposes but, with such low "peak" torque it would feel very underpowered without the antistall.

CAT's engineering is a marvel is a statement that I cant fathom.

As far as CAT's position in the market and how that relates to the machine. I think your over stating it.

I will make one last inquiry. Why doesn't CAT publish any of these specs? Engine torque, wheel torque? and there are others?

Tiger none of this is meant with any maliciousness it is only for the means of a discussion.

Five of your quotes -- I'll do the last one first. I totally understand. Remember that what I do see is obviously Cat-biased, so although what I have seen in the long-ago past claims certain Cat victories, I don't know the background that led to the conclusion.

The first: I've heard that from other sources, too, and I'm afraid I just can't substantiate, either. I've dug around (lightly) to see if anything I've read before contains a glimmer of torque at RPM, but I haven't seen anything (not for Deere, either). This also ties in with the fourth quote... I dunno why some companies don't publish. Honestly, and this is in my opinion only, but I don't think Cat publishes because Bobcat doesn't. A guy walks into a Bobcat store because Bobcat's known for SSLs, then walks into a Cat store because Cat's know for "tractors." Bobcat doesn't have information on torque, so no need for Cat to, either. Cat's only begun to tout breakout force on the C-series (i.e. in 2007), so this was likely to address user complaints that the A- and B-series didn't have enough. But note again that there's no mention of lift breakout (which are published in the performance handbook, so it's still out there, unlike torque), so I don't know.

So this leads to the concept of "marvel." I didn't attach any positive or negative connotation to "marvel" -- it's usually intended as a positive thing (admiration), but it can be equally neutral (curious). I meant it as the latter, and I certainly don't think that Cat only makes good decisions...

Finally, Cat's market share. I think that if the product were abysmal, they wouldn't be #2 or #3... it'd be more like #5 or #6. There's certainly a fair bit of brand awareness when something says Cat, but honestly, not everyone who owns a Cat thinks it's a gutless wonder, and conversely, not everyone who owns Case or Deere uses it to the fullest extent, either.

[SiteSolutions]

Concerning peak torque I know where your going, and since CAT choses not to put out their full specs you cant compare. I will say that higher displacement motors like CASE make their rated torque at a lower rpm than a small displacment like CAT. The torque curve tends to be much more flat than does that of a small displacement engine. Distance between peak torque and usable torque is small.

I may be misinformed but I thought that (all else being equal) bigger displacement motors had higher peak torque, while having more cylinders made the curve broader. That is, a 5.9 cummins might have a little higher peak at lower rpm than a 6.0 Ford but the v-8 would have a broader curve than the straight 6... of course the "all else being equal" part never is that way.

And HP is important to a certain extent... it doesn't have much to do with grunt but it does relate to how much of something can be performed per unit time, or put another way, how quickly work can be accomplished. That being said, HP is just derived from torque anyway, it is mathematically just torque produced over time.

[ksss]

I may be misinformed but I thought that (all else being equal) bigger displacement motors had higher peak torque, while having more cylinders made the curve broader. That is, a 5.9 cummins might have a little higher peak at lower rpm than a 6.0 Ford but the v-8 would have a broader curve than the straight 6... of course the "all else being equal" part never is that way.

And HP is important to a certain extent... it doesn't have much to do with grunt but it does relate to how much of something can be performed per unit time, or put another way, how quickly work can be accomplished. That being said, HP is just derived from torque anyway, it is mathematically just torque produced over time.

I think your probably right, but the displacement is about the same. Granted one is a 6 cylinder and the other an 8 and we could discuss the merits of that but the displacement is nearly the same. One comparison that is interesting is the Deere motor. It is a tiny 5 cylinder with about 185 cu displacement (I think that is close anyway). I did not mean to say that hp was not important, although that is the way I wrote it. There does not seem to be much difference from OEM to OEM on machines of the same class in matters of hp. So when you look at all the machines of the same ROC class and see there is only 0-8 hp difference between all of them. Without further investigation, you would assume that they are all equally as powerful as the next. Most of us acknowledge that is not true. However the uninformed among us assume that 90hp is 90hp.

CAT does not allow for much further investigation as it provides no further information on how it generates its power. I think of course that is by design, if purchasers did look at torque output and torque graphs that would put CAT at a disadvantage. Out of sight out of mind (at least for some). I spoke with the CAT salesman and his boss and no one could find the torque spec on the 256C.:rolleyes:

[Duffster]

Cat makes one of the best Skid Steers on the market.


And how many have you run that you are able to make that comment?

[Digdeep]

CAT does not allow for much further investigation as it provides no further information on how it generates its power. I think of course that is by design, if purchasers did look at torque output and torque graphs that would put CAT at a disadvantage. Out of sight out of mind (at least for some). I spoke with the CAT salesman and his boss and no one could find the torque spec on the 256C.:rolleyes:

John Deere is in this boat as well. Try to find engine torque for their skids or CTLs. You can however find their breakout forces.....with a foundry bucket of course.:clapping:

[SiteSolutions]

This site has a pretty good comparison app.

http://construction.newholland.com/apps/producturl.aspx?url=http://comparison.newhollandconstruction.com/choose_product_cust.php?step=1&brand=New%20Holland&product=Compact%20Track%20Loaders&product_family=8&compare=compact_track_loaders&remove_header=true&navid=167&RL=ENNA&lineid=447&seriesid=2695

I have found one or two numbers on it before that I couldn't find elsewhere. Unfortunately, it doesn't have torque numbers.

Cat doesn't even publish the rpm at which their engines develop peak hp, so you can't even calculate out what the torque is at that speed or see how high they have to rev to get it. All a person is left with in that situation is to go by the time tested rule of thumb, more displacement gives more torque.

By the way, I guess it relates to this discussion, I have always assumed the T-190 just didn't have the hydraulic ability to lift things. I understand how the anti-stall works with the e/h controls as far as pushing into a pile; do you think that they also destroke on heavy lifting? I mean, when trying to lift something really heavy or pry up on something, the engine doesn't really bog down. I assumed the hydraulics were going into relief but maybe it is a sort of anti-stall? Wouldn't mind to hear your thoughts on that...

[Digdeep]

I have asked the same questions. Maybe CAT wanted its power to go to it's piston pumps for auxiliary hydraulics. Seems to me they can make a lot of money selling these things as tool carriers and leave the digging to higher torque machines. I have no clue and it's above my pay grade to speculate much more than I do now.

I am probably one of those guys who doesn't know what he's missing because I have only used CAT and Bobcat in as far as skid steer loaders go. I'd don't find I need much more pushing power than I have now but I'd like to have as much engine torque as possible to keep my hydro pump working. I don't think Bobcat's gear pump, however, is affected by torque as much as rpms but I could be way off. Does someone know the answer to that?

Gear pump or piston pump, it doesn't matter, engine torque is paramount when it comes to keeping that pump shaft turning when there is a load on the hydro pump. Piston pumps are more efficient than a gear pump though.

[RentalGuy]

And how many have you run that you are able to make that comment?
Yeah, no offense Willie, but it looks like that you only take the machines that you "demo" for a drive around the parking lot at dealerships. Not really putting them through the paces if you ask me. One would hope that they could perform fairly well during that type of demo. Hell, if they can't drive around a parking lot and hook up to attachments, the manufacturer should throw in the towel.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Digdeep]

This site has a pretty good comparison app.

http://construction.newholland.com/apps/producturl.aspx?url=http://comparison.newhollandconstruction.com/choose_product_cust.php?step=1&brand=New%20Holland&product=Compact%20Track%20Loaders&product_family=8&compare=compact_track_loaders&remove_header=true&navid=167&RL=ENNA&lineid=447&seriesid=2695

I have found one or two numbers on it before that I couldn't find elsewhere. Unfortunately, it doesn't have torque numbers.

Cat doesn't even publish the rpm at which their engines develop peak hp, so you can't even calculate out what the torque is at that speed or see how high they have to rev to get it. All a person is left with in that situation is to go by the time tested rule of thumb, more displacement gives more torque.

By the way, I guess it relates to this discussion, I have always assumed the T-190 just didn't have the hydraulic ability to lift things. I understand how the anti-stall works with the e/h controls as far as pushing into a pile; do you think that they also destroke on heavy lifting? I mean, when trying to lift something really heavy or pry up on something, the engine doesn't really bog down. I assumed the hydraulics were going into relief but maybe it is a sort of anti-stall? Wouldn't mind to hear your thoughts on that...

The anit-stall is more related to the engine rpm and the swash plate angle (pressure and flow) of the hystat. When the engine starts to lug the swash plate angle will be adjusted to keep the built up hyd pressure from killing the engine (picture a type of relief system) The theory goes that without this "anti-stall" the pump pressure would increase to a point past the engines ability to turn the pump and the engine would die. The simple way that a CAT salesman tries to sell the system is that "the pump matches its pressure to the engine rpms- low rpms (lug) = low pump pressure (high swash plate angle), high rpms= max pressure. The pump can be adjusted to the operators preferrence. All it takes is a screwdriver to pop the plastic cap, a wrench for the jam nut and an allen set. You can eliminate it completely if you want but I would wait until the warranty is out.

The loader arms run off of your aux pump and not your hystat and their typically limited by the hydraulic reliefs in your machine although it still takes engine torque to drive the aux pump when you are really working the arms.

[iron peddler]

i must admit this is getting real entertaining to read....Monday morning engineers are the best!!!! torque management has been Cat's motto for a long time. Just because a machine or engine doesn't feel like what you currently have, doesn't mean it is not productive. over the long term i would put a cat ssl vs all of them.

[iron peddler]

Gear pump or piston pump, it doesn't matter, engine torque is paramount when it comes to keeping that pump shaft turning when there is a load on the hydro pump. Piston pumps are more efficient than a gear pump though.

how does it not matter,if piston pumps are more efficent?

[Digdeep]

And how many have you run that you are able to make that comment?

I've run a few over the years and while not taking sides (they are not my favorite-Bobcat and Case), I think that CAT does make a pretty darn good skid steer, although if I really wanted to move tons of durt (production machine) I would search high and low for a 95XT in good shape. You would have to tip the hat to them for pushing the envelope regarding cabs on skids, aux hydraulics, face seals for axles, variable speed fans, pilot controls, etc...all things that others are following with. While they may not be for everyone they sit at #2 for a reason (besides the CAT name).

[Digdeep]

how does it not matter,if piston pumps are more efficent?

Sorry if you misunderstood me but it doesn't matter if the machine uses a piston pump or a gear pump..engine torque is just as important for both of them when under load. And it definitely matters in a positive way that a piston pump is more efficient, especially if used in a load sensing system and its direct drive and not belt driven.

[Tigerotor77W]

Digdeep -- duffster wasn't challenging you; he was asking about willywonka's post, I think.

As for your post, are you saying that as far as skids go, your two favorites are Bobcat and Case?

There were some things that caught my eye but I think I'm gonna wait until I have a real screen (I'm on a blackberry right now) to reply to... but this is nevertheless an interesting discussion!
Posted via Mobile Device

[iron peddler]

Sorry if you misunderstood me but it doesn't matter if the machine uses a piston pump or a gear pump..engine torque is just as important for both of them when under load. And it definitely matters in a positive way that a piston pump is more efficient, especially if used in a load sensing system and its direct drive and not belt driven.

what about over time? gear pumps create heat, alot of heat, isn't that a problem over time? load sensing system!!! ah!!! a system that doesn't require full engine rpm to operate? now i understand

[SiteSolutions]

Nothing wrong with trying to learn something.

The Bobcat anti-stall drive can be defeated by using the speed control. I've been using it to run at max drive speed without having to redline the motor. Just set it to 99% (max setting) and it will go flat out even at 2300 rpm vs. 2800 rpm. I think this will save fuel on jobs where there is a lot of lift and carry. You can drive into a loose pile with it set this way, but you have to be ready to back off on the stick or it will stall pretty easily.

Messing with that just got me to wondering how the lift and tilt is controlled.

[iron peddler]

i guess i am waisting my sarcasm on my own amusement...i will remove myself from this topic.

[jefftb]

i must admit this is getting real entertaining to read....Monday morning engineers are the best!!!! torque management has been Cat's motto for a long time. Just because a machine or engine doesn't feel like what you currently have, doesn't mean it is not productive. over the long term i would put a cat ssl vs all of them.

Do they make a good machine that is reliable, productive, backed by a generally very effective engineering and customer service program. Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes.

However, to my way of thinking (and my college classes seemed to affirm this) the only time a manufacturer would not (or made it difficult to get) provide full product specs was because there was some deficiency there.
Take for example CAT and the new Compact Track Loader. Here is the information I could find related to this discussion from the CAT brochure

"Increased horsepower and higher torque deliver outstanding performance." First of all, is this not a new machine for them? If not , or even if so, what machine is the statement above in reference to? Increased over what and where?

Nowhere in the information was a comparative number to be found. Now let's counter that with a TAK brochure. You can easily locate the HP, torque, lift arm specs and tractive force. I can only find 1 out of those 4 in the CAT brochure. TAK even provides their expected fuel consumption at percentage load. ASV does the same thing with tractive force and both curl/lift forces. New Holland does not publish their tractive force numbers.

There's a trend here of not publishing something when you are not best in class or even near it. I think this may just be the CAT's ego. I mean if they were at or near the top they sure would be promoting it-they do with everything else they are top at.:)

Sometimes you market "torque management" as a selling feature and not about the actual torque numbers because you are behind in the game.

[iron peddler]

i will not deny that there is alot of truth in your observations. I don't know if it is an ego thing or not, but it is a trend with marketing that "we" have used for along time. one issue is that none of the manufacturers use the same testing measures, so they all can get as creative when it comes to spec writing.

[Skidsteerman]

John Deere is in this boat as well. Try to find engine torque for their skids or CTLs. You can however find their breakout forces.....with a foundry bucket of course.:clapping:

What Deere sslder engine would you like the torque specs on? I will post them up if you like.

Also, they show breakout force numbers for both the foundry bucket and the low profile long lip construction bucket - or did you intentionally forget this in your statement?:rolleyes:

[Skidsteerman]

i must admit this is getting real entertaining to read....Monday morning engineers are the best!!!! torque management has been Cat's motto for a long time. Just because a machine or engine doesn't feel like what you currently have, doesn't mean it is not productive. over the long term i would put a cat ssl vs all of them.

Sure, sell it to yourself all you want. We like to call Cat's motto "torque management system" a "antiwork valve".

Side by side comparisons, the Cat's hydraulics will stall out way before a competitors unit will. Maybe with the new copy cat undercarriage they bumped this up, but I doubt it from the demos I have done against the current C series - still a over priced dawg IMO. I'm not complaining at all, I hope Cat keeps it up, makes it wonderful to compete against.

But hey, it sure does ride nice huh...:laugh:

[Digdeep]

What Deere sslder engine would you like the torque specs on? I will post them up if you like.

Also, they show breakout force numbers for both the foundry bucket and the low profile long lip construction bucket - or did you intentionally forget this in your statement?:rolleyes:

No thanks- I already got them from Bobcat- 163ft lbs for the CT322 and 212ft lbs for the CT332.

They show both now but not too long ago they didn't and the foundry bucket use was only noted by a teeny little number 1 that just happened to read foundry bucket in all of the text written below.

From my perspective as a potential customer I would want to know that there is a 29% decrease in bucket breakout when I use a construction bucket istead of a foundry bucket (I wonder how many of these Deere actually sells and why they used it in the first place). By the way, they still use a foundry bucket instead of a standard construction bucket when they figure out their SAE ROCs. That shorter bucket floor does still come in handy somewhere.

I wonder what kind of bucket they use for their dump reach figures? Probably not a foundry bucket.

[Digdeep]

Sure, sell it to yourself all you want. We like to call Cat's motto "torque management system" a "antiwork valve".

Side by side comparisons, the Cat's hydraulics will stall out way before a competitors unit will. Maybe with the new copy cat undercarriage they bumped this up, but I doubt it from the demos I have done against the current C series - still a over priced dawg IMO. I'm not complaining at all, I hope Cat keeps it up, makes it wonderful to compete against.

But hey, it sure does ride nice huh...:laugh:

What did you mean by "copy cat" undercarriage? Wouldn't everyone that runs a rigid undercarriage except for Takeuchi have a "copy cat" undercarriage? Why would Deere not be considered to have copied? When did Deere introduce the CT322 and CT332?

You keep telling yourself that CAT machines are "dawgs" and I'm sure CAT will take their #2 market share position to the bank while Deere comes in nationally at 4th or 5th behind or just in front of Case.

[YellowDogSVC]

i will not deny that there is alot of truth in your observations. I don't know if it is an ego thing or not, but it is a trend with marketing that "we" have used for along time. one issue is that none of the manufacturers use the same testing measures, so they all can get as creative when it comes to spec writing.

it can't be that different than any of us putting up the good information and pretty pictures on our own websites. I don't show pictures where I got stuck in the mud or where I tracked up a lawn. I put in the best of my work and then put in fine print that I'm not perfect! ;) Seriously, I think the manufactures are putting the brochures out for less experienced consumers who don't know any better. They (the manufacturers) make it all look rosy. 33% bigger cabs, 12% better visibility...but compared to what? It's all marketing speak designed to get you to try their product and if you don't know what your missing, you are likely to buy into to hype. Real world experience is what is important in the long run. We all have our opinions however a lot of us are doing about the same amount of work each day with different machines that spec out different. I think a lot has to do with the operator and conditions and what you have to work with..the rest is bells and whistles (which I like but don't necessarily NEED). I think if push came to shove and we were all desperate for a machine, any of us would take ANY brand that ran all day just so we could work.

[Skidsteerman]

No thanks- I already got them from Bobcat- 163ft lbs for the CT322 and 212ft lbs for the CT332.

They show both now but not too long ago they didn't and the foundry bucket use was only noted by a teeny little number 1 that just happened to read foundry bucket in all of the text written below.

From my perspective as a potential customer I would want to know that there is a 29% decrease in bucket breakout when I use a construction bucket istead of a foundry bucket (I wonder how many of these Deere actually sells and why they used it in the first place). By the way, they still use a foundry bucket instead of a standard construction bucket when they figure out their SAE ROCs. That shorter bucket floor does still come in handy somewhere.

I wonder what kind of bucket they use for their dump reach figures? Probably not a foundry bucket.

Spec's taken from Deere's CTL literature (copy/paste) have no clue what your talking about Deere trying to deceive people on what bucket they are using unless reading comprehension is beyond you

CT332 COMPACT TRACK LOADER
Specifications
Loader Performance CT332
Tipping Load . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9,200 lb. (4173 kg)
SAE Rated Operating Capacity @ 35%
of Tipping Load1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3,200 lb. (1452 kg)
SAE Rated Operating Capacity @ 50%
of Tipping Load . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4,600 lb. (2087 kg)
Boom Breakout . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6,650 lb. (3016 kg)
Bucket Breakout:
Heavy-Duty Foundry Bucket . . . . . . . . . 11,600 lb. (5262 kg)
Heavy-Duty Construction Bucket. . . . . . 8,210 lb. (3724 kg)
Tractive Effort . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11,500 lbf (5227 kgf)
1Operating capacity rated with 17.7-in. (450 mm) tracks and foundry bucket according to SAE standard J818 operating capacity to equal no more than
35% of the tip load.


Bucket size for testing ROC won't make any difference since this measurement is based on artificial weight put into a bucket at the machines most unstable point (vertical lift being raised to full height) (no unit would be able to lift this weight from the ground up to full height) This weight at "tipping load" is then reduced to operating weight either 50% for sslders or 35% for CTL's - nothing to do with bucket size all though Deere does state what they use.

Dump height is also a useless figure. Who gives a rats ass what their machines dump height is? No one, they want to know what their hinge pin height is so they know how high they can raise the bucket for dumping purposes - like raising over the sides of a dump truck for example.

[jefftb]

Actually skidsteerman you posted the information from the brochure, if you look at the "specifications" link on Deere's website for the 332 CTL it lists the following information:


SAE Rated Oper. Cap.(ROC)35% tip lb(kg) 3,200 (1452)

ROC at 50% of tipping load lb (kg) 4,600 (2087)

Tipping Load, standard, lb (kg) 9,200 (4173)

Boom, lb (kN) 6,650 (29.4)

Bucket, lb (kN) 11,600 (51.4)

There is no reference either directly or indirectly that this is with a foundry bucket with respect to the bucket force. Now if you click on the brochure link (again website) the brochure will provide the information you cut/pasted.

This is just a good example of things that can go awry either purposeful or not. I just wish that the manufacturer's would all post the information in the same manner, using the same performance metric.

[Digdeep]

Spec's taken from Deere's CTL literature (copy/paste) have no clue what your talking about Deere trying to deceive people on what bucket they are using unless reading comprehension is beyond you

Bucket size for testing ROC won't make any difference since this measurement is based on artificial weight put into a bucket at the machines most unstable point (vertical lift being raised to full height) (no unit would be able to lift this weight from the ground up to full height) This weight at "tipping load" is then reduced to operating weight either 50% for sslders or 35% for CTL's - nothing to do with bucket size all though Deere does state what they use.

Dump height is also a useless figure. Who gives a rats ass what their machines dump height is? No one, they want to know what their hinge pin height is so they know how high they can raise the bucket for dumping purposes - like raising over the sides of a dump truck for example.

I didn't say that it wasn't listed now, only that it wasn't listed in the past. And I also didn't say that they were trying to mislead only that it had been conspicuously absent. Does CAT try to mislead by not publishing engine torques? Nope, but these specs are absent as well. Did Deere mislead the public by saying during the launching of their CTLs in the Fall of 2005 that the engineers made sure that the undercarriage design had the same type bearings and seals as the larger John Deere dozers? Maybe, since it was a 100% Berco designed undercarriage that was actually launched an well over a year earlier on the Komatsu track loader at Bauma in Europe. I have photos of that machine to share with you if you'd like. they were taken in early 2004.

And yes, while any machine wouldn't likely be able to lift the "tipping capacity" of the machine the SAE requirement is that SAE J742 must be used to fulfill this measurement. This defines the "bucket capacity" as the bucket volume enclosed by the interior surfaces. This is important because while a skid steer most likely wouldn't be able to lift it's tipping load, a wheel loader would/could, hence the importance of the bucket capacity in determining the tipping capacity. So that being said, a low volume foundry bucket would/could produce favorable results compared to a higher volume bucket. You and I went round and round over breakout forces some time ago regarding the foundry bucket and your were wrong then as well. I even posted the entire SAE definition for you.

And no, artificial weight isn't used, it is actual weight/downward force by using either a "wire rope, chain, or similar device attched to the bucket to the bucket such that the device is vertical and the line of force passes throughout the centroid of the SAE rated bucket volume to attain the tipping condition defined under the test conditions listed".

I agree with you that dump height isn't as important as hinge pin height.

Listen, I'm not trying to bash you or your product, but I'm far far from not having a clue about what I'm talking about. I did spend a large portion of my adult life selling Bobcat compact equipment with a very high success rate in a state with much more market opportunity than Mo or IL. I can find something to appreciate in most every brand as well.

[Tigerotor77W]

What Deere sslder engine would you like the torque specs on? I will post them up if you like.

I'd like the RPM at peak torque and also the engine torque vs. engine speed for the 317, 320, 325, 328 and 332. If you can't get the larger ones, I'd like the 317 and 320.

But hey, it sure does ride nice huh...:laugh:

Try selling a machine without suspension to the owner/operator who's got a bad back. Is that how you're going to sell your product?

Spec's taken from Deere's CTL literature (copy/paste) have no clue what your talking about Deere trying to deceive people on what bucket they are using unless reading comprehension is beyond you

Dump height is also a useless figure.

This how you speak to your customers as well? That because they'd consider other brands' specifications and question yours that reading comprehension is beyond them? :rolleyes:

No one mentioned dump height. Dump reach was mentioned, and you'd better bet it's an important figure. What happening to "reading comprehension" being important as to not make this discussion "beyond us"?

I just wish that the manufacturer's would all post the information in the same manner, using the same performance metric.

That's the problem. iron_peddler already alluded to this, but the problem is inherently that manufacturers use different methods to test their machines. As an example: some excavator manufacturers don't put on a bucket when doing load charts. Some wheel loader manufacturers don't include the fan or certain other components (AC compressor if present) when giving net engine horsepower. The same is true for skid-steers.

I knew a test engineer for Bobcat a while back -- try as they may, it's simply difficult to get all manufacturers to agree on how to test a certain specification, regardless of how many SAE or ISO standards exist on the subject. Loopholes exist, and manufacturers will exploit them.

Listen, I'm not trying to bash you or your product, but I'm far far from not having a clue about what I'm talking about. I did spend a large portion of my adult life selling Bobcat compact equipment with a very high success rate in a state with much more market opportunity than Mo or IL. I can find something to appreciate in most every brand as well.

You're able to keep a really cool head on these forums, and I, for one, really appreciate that. I don't know if it's the teaching that's given you some more patience, but I can say that if I were in the equipment buying market, you'd be a trustworthy salesman and a shining example of why the dealer matters sometimes more than the equipment. :clapping:

Just so no one picks at stupid holes in your argument (which I agree with, by the way, when it comes to ROC and bucket type), it's J732 rather than 742.

As for your last sentence: there are some on this forum who need to get off their damned soapbox. If I want to get a good dose of brand-pushing, I can go straight to skidsteersmackdown.com and get it all.

[Tigerotor77W]

Bucket size for testing ROC won't make any difference since this measurement is based on artificial weight put into a bucket at the machines most unstable point (vertical lift being raised to full height) (no unit would be able to lift this weight from the ground up to full height)

I wanted to clarify this statement: Deere's forward-most reach (most unstable point) is at maximum height. No other SSL manufacturer (save perhaps NH) has maximum reach at maximum height.

[Mr. Rain]

As for your last sentence: there are some on this forum who need to get off their damned soapbox. If I want to get a good dose of brand-pushing, I can go straight to skidsteersmackdown.com and get it all.

I have to agree. I'm a Deere guy at heart, but the arrogant tone of a couple of the salemen (not just Deere) that post here is doing neither their brand nor themselves any favors. I've been reading this forum for long enough to know that an infallable attitude will not get you much respect around here. None of these machines are perfect in every way. If you have input or answers or cool pics, great, but the constant bashing could be toned down a bit. The same points/comparisons can be made without the smartass comments, and you'll be a lot better recieved.

[YellowDogSVC]

I have to agree. I'm a Deere guy at heart, but the arrogant tone of a couple of the salemen (not just Deere) that post here is doing neither their brand nor themselves any favors. I've been reading this forum for long enough to know that an infallable attitude will not get you much respect around here. None of these machines are perfect in every way. If you have input or answers or cool pics, great, but the constant bashing could be toned down a bit. The same points/comparisons can be made without the smartass comments, and you'll be a lot better recieved.

Good points!

I like a lot about most all the brands out there. There are plenty of things that I would take from CAT and a few from Bobcat and others and build a machine if I could. They (the manufacturers) all have what they think will work best. Can't attack them for that because they are proving it in the field. Every major brand can do work..so then it boils down to personal preference, the bells and whistles, and dealer and product support.

It's like saying one truck is better than the other. I'd take a new dodge, chevy or Ford any day (at least before the bailouts).

[Tigerotor77W]

It's like saying one truck is better than the other.

Good grief, ain't that the troof! I wouldn't have imagined it fifteen years ago, but after I let myself cool down a bit it's somewhat amusing to think of all the "brand x vs. brand y" that goes on (in this poster's own head, too!). The car debate, Nikon vs. Canon, computer brand wars, mowers, Boeing vs. Airbus, sheesh.

I can't imagine how much more productive I'd be in school if I didn't continually think about posting on these forums so much. :P

[DUSTYCEDAR]

I WOULD LIKE TO TAKE ONE FOR A SPIN
ill wait till the rental yard gets its new ones and beat on them

[Digdeep]

You're able to keep a really cool head on these forums, and I, for one, really appreciate that. I don't know if it's the teaching that's given you some more patience, but I can say that if I were in the equipment buying market, you'd be a trustworthy salesman and a shining example of why the dealer matters sometimes more than the equipment. :clapping:

Just so no one picks at stupid holes in your argument (which I agree with, by the way, when it comes to ROC and bucket type), it's J732 rather than 742.

As for your last sentence: there are some on this forum who need to get off their damned soapbox. If I want to get a good dose of brand-pushing, I can go straight to skidsteersmackdown.com and get it all.

I guess if you can maintain any level of sanity in a room full of 8th grade boys and girls that are approaching the "young man and young woman" portion of their lives a little arguing over our favorite brands won't hurt anything. I do have to say that being told that I have no clue kinda stings:(

Nice catch on the SAE spec. I must have been having a dyslexic moment.

As far as soap boxes go I'm just as guilty as the next guy. Nobody likes to be told that their brand isn't any good, and not many people will readily admit when they bought the wrong machine. Although when I was selling Bobcats, anyone that didn't buy a Bobcat bought the wrong machine:nono: All kidding aside, as I said earlier I can find something I appreciate in practically every brand of equipment made. Most importantly, all that matters is if the customer is happy with his purchase.:drinkup:

[Tigerotor77W]

Glad things calmed down. In the heat of it all, Bobcat had a bunch of press events:

http://www.bobcat.com/publicadmin/viewArticle.html?id=17085

and announced the new loaders on their webpage.

http://www.bobcat.com/publicadmin/viewArticle.html?id=17052

[DeereMan85]

"The windows are now located on the outside to make them easier to clean."

Not exactly--now the only way to effectively clean the inside of the windows is to blast the interior of your nice new pressurized cab full of electronic gadgetry with a power washer. Believe me, I know from experience. The rest of the machine does sound pretty sweet, but I'm surprised by the lack of an air-ride seat.

[WillieWonka1850]

I would take every good feature and make the Ultimate machine
The Cummins Diesel from the Case,
The versatility from Bobcat,
The C series Cab from Caterpillar,
The Track suspension from ASV,
And the Super Boom from New Holland/John Deere.
Thats 7 trademark violations! (The track is from ASV and Cat, and the Super Boom is NH/Deere)

[DeereMan85]

Although the designs are quite similar (but not identical), Deere does not use the term Super Boom. I heard NH came up with that term as a way to revamp their image after they had a problem with boom cracking on a few models. I personally haven't seen more cracked booms on NHs than on anything else. Anybody know if this story is true or pure Deere propaganda?

[Duffster]

I would take every good feature and make the Ultimate machine
The Cummins Diesel from the Case,
The versatility from Bobcat,
The C series Cab from Caterpillar,
The Track suspension from ASV,
And the Super Boom from New Holland/John Deere.
Thats 7 trademark violations! (The track is from ASV and Cat, and the Super Boom is NH/Deere)

Instead of that cluster puck I will just take a new D series Deere :)

[bobcat_ron]

"Best in class pressurized cab"

Ha-ha, I love that, they haven't even been tested in the real world work places and they already say they are the best, even Cat didn't start saying that until at least 10 units had been sold.

[SellingIron]

Thats what everyone is saying B-Ron. You know that means its true.They tested it at the bobcat factory with bobcat employees and with bobcat pressurized cab testing tools. What is cat going to do now with the 2nd best cab on the market..

[Tigerotor77W]

What is cat going to do now with the 2nd best cab on the market..

What!? You mean all innovation in the SSL market stops dead now that Bobcat just released a machine with yet another "best in class" feature?!?

[Digdeep]

What exactly is "best in class"? What was the measuring stick? Cab pressure? If so, what was it and how does it compare to others? The claim without the methodology used to determine why it is "best in class" seems awful subjective on Bobcat's part. I think CAT only claimed the industries "first pressurized cab". I'm happy that Bobcat has claimed these improvements; however, I will withold judgement until I get to sit in the seat myself.

I'm interested to see how the cab shakes out. After talking to someone who has run both the CAT C series and ASV's new PT100 Forestry machine it sounds as if ASV has the "best in class" pressurized cab (reported to provide as much as 440% better pressurization than CAT according to the local ASV salesman I talk to). Of course that is only coming from one operator and one salesman not from the ASV factory.

[WillieWonka1850]

Well you guys get the idea.
I've never heard that. I'll look into it, it'll give me something else to do when I stay up till 12am.

[WillieWonka1850]

"Best in class pressurized cab"

Ha-ha, I love that, they haven't even been tested in the real world work places and they already say they are the best, even Cat didn't start saying that until at least 10 units had been sold.
I know. The Caterpillar remains the Best Cab in the Industry in my book.
Unless I See a New Bobcat at my local dealer (Still waiting Carleton Equipment:()
then I'll believe it. Don't get me wrong, Bobcat and Cat make great loaders but I seriously doubt any Cab can be better than Caterpillar. It's already nice enough.

[ksss]

i must admit this is getting real entertaining to read....Monday morning engineers are the best!!!! torque management has been Cat's motto for a long time. Just because a machine or engine doesn't feel like what you currently have, doesn't mean it is not productive. over the long term i would put a cat ssl vs all of them.



I know, I read this thread backward and you have removed yourself from this thread. If I am wrong somewhere please point it out to me. I pretty sure I am not.

Torque management. That is laughable. First they should make some and then learn to manage it.

Certainly being a CAT salesman you should back your product, but I would encourage you to acknowledge the machines shortcommings (atleast to yourself).

[ksss]

i will not deny that there is alot of truth in your observations. I don't know if it is an ego thing or not, but it is a trend with marketing that "we" have used for along time. one issue is that none of the manufacturers use the same testing measures, so they all can get as creative when it comes to spec writing.

I would hope thats not an excuse for making basic specs available to the public. Torque specs are pretty basic.

[ksss]

"Best in class pressurized cab"

Ha-ha, I love that, they haven't even been tested in the real world work places and they already say they are the best, even Cat didn't start saying that until at least 10 units had been sold.


Thats funny.................and they bought back the first ten they sold.

[Tigerotor77W]

I would hope thats not an excuse for making basic specs available to the public. Torque specs are pretty basic.

True, but that's a question for Cat and not the dealer... and Cat's definitely not the only one. Even in their small dozers, the literature doesn't include engine torque.

[Skidsteerman]

As for your last sentence: there are some on this forum who need to get off their damned soapbox. If I want to get a good dose of brand-pushing, I can go straight to skidsteersmackdown.com and get it all.

Ironic aren't ya.

It's advertising and bringing your attention to the Deere line - it works on several levels, including your post about it. No different then truck commercials with several brands pulling loads up steep hills. I'm sure the guy who owns the looser truck is throwing his beer can at the TV crying out "that's BS"

Sure, everyone has their preference on what brand they like/love - that's what's great about America. I don't get butt hurt if someone purchases a competitor unit, they have their reasons and I respect that (be it me or the product), I just thank them for the opportunity and the chance for them to check out the Deere product line and ask that they concider giving me another chance down the road next time around.

carry on

[ksss]

True, but that's a question for Cat and not the dealer... and Cat's definitely not the only one. Even in their small dozers, the literature doesn't include engine torque.

I realize a dealer has no control over that. However if you are going to defend the lack of information than, in my opinion you own it as well. CASE puts torque specs out on nearly all products to which a torque spec is applicable and they should. I am not patting them on the back, I would expect nothing less.

[Boss Exc.]

Check out these video's...

T630
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eah7IMuEA7A

S630
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeBxhcfJNDw

E35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3ZtR-j1vu8

[Digdeep]

Check out these video's...

T630
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eah7IMuEA7A

S630
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeBxhcfJNDw

E35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3ZtR-j1vu8

I'm pretty sure that the operator isn't putting the machines "best foot forward", actually he's terrible:nono:

[Boss Exc.]

I'm pretty sure that the operator isn't putting the machines "best foot forward", actually he's terrible:nono:

I agree...:laugh:

[BigDigger]

you call that an operator? Human yes, operator no. I sure hope Cat uses this video in their promotional material. " as seen in this bobcat video, a 45 year vetran skid steer operator is trying to operate the new m class bobcat....don't let this happen to you folks, buy a Cat."

[BigDigger]

oh and looking at the skid video, that thing would be a PITA to get into with the arms up. I don't know. I can't say the new look does it for me. In fact it seems like a step backwards. But hey, this isn't a fashion contest.....at least that's what a Case owner would tell ya. :waving::laugh:

[ksss]

I cant believe that someone would post that on U-Tube. Obviously that is the first time that person has been inside a skid steer. I am sure that was meant as some kind of promotional link, IMHO it just makes the machine and operator look bad.


Yes the machines are a little cosmetically challenged. The resemblence to a Komatsu are incredible.

[BigDigger]

I cant believe that someone would post that on U-Tube. Obviously that is the first time that person has been inside a skid steer. I am sure that was meant as some kind of promotional link, IMHO it just makes the machine and operator look bad.


Yes the machines are a little cosmetically challenged. The resemblence to a Komatsu are incredible.
I agree, hugely komatsu, strange since doosan bought it....hmmm or are those companies related? I don't really know, but it wouldn't surprise me.

I always thought that the way the front of the loader arms took a 90 deg down it would imact the bucket hieight. I don't think I am wrong in that. it seems such a strange design.

PS I just spilled a bowl of cereal on my keyboard and the backspace doesn't work along with a bunch of other keys....sorry for the spelling :laugh:

[Mr. Rain]

I agree, hugely komatsu, strange since doosan bought it....hmmm or are those companies related? I don't really know, but it wouldn't surprise me.



I'd guess not. Typically Korea and Japan don't "play nice" with each other. Rumored to be part of the reason Kubota won't be supplying engines to BC down the road.
On that note, anyone seen what's under the very long hood of these M-series? No brand of motor listed in the spec's on BC's website.

[Digdeep]

I'd guess not. Typically Korea and Japan don't "play nice" with each other. Rumored to be part of the reason Kubota won't be supplying engines to BC down the road.
On that note, anyone seen what's under the very long hood of these M-series? No brand of motor listed in the spec's on BC's website.

Good possibility it could be Daedong. I think they're owned by Doosan and I know for sure it's the engine in the Kioti tractors.

[WillieWonka1850]

Good possibility it could be Daedong. I think they're owned by Doosan and I know for sure it's the engine in the Kioti tractors.
Guys, I just asked Carleton equipment on here about that.
Basically, if you were to look under the hood of a new M-Series, it would be the same as looking under the hood of a current K-Series Loader, Excavator, or Toolcat.
What I'm saying is the M-Series (loaders and excavators) are using Kubota Diesels.

[Carleton Equipment Co.]

Just and FYI about the operator in the video . . . I am about 99.9 percent sure that this event was held for media members to celebrate the launch of the new M-Series products. So, more than likely, it was a reporter operating the machine and not a Bobcat sales representative (I hope :dizzy:). I can assure you that when we operated the M-Series, they performed MUCH better than that video shows. :laugh:

[Tigerotor77W]

What I'm saying is the M-Series (loaders and excavators) are using Kubota Diesels.

Could be their interim powerplant. Tier IVb doesn't hit this size of equipment for another few years, so we could see the same thing the S250 did when it came out -- Deutz power first and then the switch to Kubota. (So for the M630/M650, Kubota first and then a switch to Daedong.)

That being said, the Kubotas seem to be pretty well-regarded, so it could also be that Doosan is smart enough not to mess around with the engine. It could very well stay a Kubota...

[Digdeep]

Could be their interim powerplant. Tier IVb doesn't hit this size of equipment for another few years, so we could see the same thing the S250 did when it came out -- Deutz power first and then the switch to Kubota. (So for the M630/M650, Kubota first and then a switch to Daedong.)

That being said, the Kubotas seem to be pretty well-regarded, so it could also be that Doosan is smart enough not to mess around with the engine. It could very well stay a Kubota...

It will be interesting to say the least. I can't see them staying with the Kubota powerplant for too much longer. Doosan needs to get their pound of flesh out of the $4.9billion they paid for Bobcat and they can't do that by paying OEM prices for engines when they can fit their own engines in there for far less. I also see them changing due to the fact that Kubota will be be competing with them shortly with a CTL and probably a skid not too long after that.

[ksss]

Did BC figure out how to properly fit a motor into skid steer or are they still shoe horning them in sideways?

[WillieWonka1850]

Is the Deutz used in the late 1990s, early 2000s machines Liquid Cooled or they that weird Oil Cooled set up? We were recently looking at a machine that used Oil Cooled Deutz Diesels. The Oil-Cooled set up is ok but its more maintenance than a Water Cooled Diesel.

[bobcat_ron]

"Daedong", he-he-he-he-heh, "dong".

[WillieWonka1850]

"Daedong", he-he-he-he-heh, "dong".
:rolleyes:
Oh Ron :laugh:

He-He-He-He, "Deutz" :laugh:

[Tigerotor77W]

Is the Deutz used in the late 1990s, early 2000s machines Liquid Cooled or they that weird Oil Cooled set up? We were recently looking at a machine that used Oil Cooled Deutz Diesels. The Oil-Cooled set up is ok but its more maintenance than a Water Cooled Diesel.

The Deutzs were the oil-cooled motors.

[BigDigger]

Just and FYI about the operator in the video . . . I am about 99.9 percent sure that this event was held for media members to celebrate the launch of the new M-Series products. So, more than likely, it was a reporter operating the machine and not a Bobcat sales representative (I hope :dizzy:). I can assure you that when we operated the M-Series, they performed MUCH better than that video shows. :laugh:




Noooope....I don't believe it :drinkup:

[WillieWonka1850]

Noooope....I don't believe it :drinkup:
Once my BC dealer gets some in (hope fully in a few weeks) I'll be sure to try one out and give my feedback. I'll take lots of pics and video for the minds waiting to see.
This time a REAL OPERATOR will be at the controls. ACS controls ,too :D

[Junior M]

Once my BC dealer gets some in (hope fully in a few weeks) I'll be sure to try one out and give my feedback. I'll take lots of pics and video for the minds waiting to see.
This time a REAL OPERATOR will be at the controls. ACS controls ,too :D
So who are you getting to run the machine for your vids and pics Will? :drinkup: :laugh:

[WillieWonka1850]

So who are you getting to run the machine for your vids and pics Will? :drinkup: :laugh:
I'm hoping to do more than just my little driving it around on the dealer lot. Hopefully they have like a thing of dirt to play in or My uncle or my Dad demos it.
I machine as new and nice as them, you gotta give a really test out of them.
Driving around the dealer lot proves almost nothing.

[Junior M]

I'm hoping to do more than just my little driving it around on the dealer lot. Hopefully they have like a thing of dirt to play in or My uncle or my Dad demos it.
I machine as new and nice as them, you gotta give a really test out of them.
Driving around the dealer lot proves almost nothing.
Well, uh, yeah, you screwed that joke all up.. ;)

[WillieWonka1850]

Sorry I miss read it.
Very Funny Junior...:laugh:
I'd challenge you with my 1845 but I plan on using it
And keeping my a$$ :laugh:

[Junior M]

Sorry I miss read it.
Very Funny Junior...:laugh:
I'd challenge you with my 1845 but I plan on using it
And keeping my a$$ :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Nice... And you can keep the CASE, I dont want to get a rash from the thing.. ;) :laugh:

[WillieWonka1850]

Fine!...
I don't want a rash from that T300...
Wait a minute...YES I DO!!!! :laugh:

[Junior M]

Fine!...
I don't want a rash from that T300...
Wait a minute...YES I DO!!!! :laugh:
:laugh: ;)

We dont have a T300! But okay! ;)

[Skidsteerman]

It will be interesting to say the least. I can't see them staying with the Kubota powerplant for too much longer. Doosan needs to get their pound of flesh out of the $4.9billion they paid for Bobcat and they can't do that by paying OEM prices for engines when they can fit their own engines in there for far less. I also see them changing due to the fact that Kubota will be be competing with them shortly with a CTL and probably a skid not too long after that.

Also seems unlikely to continue the use of Kubota engines when sometime in the future (When?!?) Kubota is suppose to release their own brand CTL to the North America market. Time will tell though.

Seems like it would be a cost savings for them as well to run their own Dong engine - plus easier to deal with parts and warranty issues.

[Tigerotor77W]

Apparently, the engines are Kubota (at least for the time being).

http://www.constructionequipment.com/article/CA6666990.html

The article claims that the machines have 74 gross horsepower... peak torque might be awesome, but this seems really low (69 hp on a 2,500 pound ROC machine? At 8000+ pounds?).