PDA

View Full Version : Commercial LED Floods


jshimmin
05-19-2009, 04:10 PM
Anyone have any recommendations for LED flood fixtures? I have hotel that wants the cornice at the top to be illuminated with blue LED's. Line voltage is the preferred power source. We can install any mount through the wall as the interior is currently totally being re-done. Looks like around 34 fixtures mounted 12 stories up.

I am getting a test fixture from Nexxus Lighting but have never used them before.

NiteTymeIlluminations
05-19-2009, 04:22 PM
I hate to say it but we've had nothing but issues from anything we get from Nexxus. Like 60% failure on their LEDs. Get test fixtures from other places as well is my suggestion.

jshimmin
05-19-2009, 04:30 PM
At 12 stories up, I want to install it once...

NiteTymeIlluminations
05-19-2009, 05:01 PM
I'd assume thus I mentioned the failures we've experienced.

sprinkler guy
05-20-2009, 01:00 AM
Anyone have any recommendations for LED flood fixtures? I have hotel that wants the cornice at the top to be illuminated with blue LED's. Line voltage is the preferred power source. We can install any mount through the wall as the interior is currently totally being re-done. Looks like around 34 fixtures mounted 12 stories up.

I am getting a test fixture from Nexxus Lighting but have never used them before.

Talk to Shermann at DG Lights. Don't just go by the products on the website, tell him your need, and he may be able to help you out. 760.431.8982 is their office number.

Tomwilllight
05-21-2009, 07:54 PM
We hear reports of massive and repeated LED installation failures all across the nation. Be very careful!!!!

Tom

irrig8r
05-22-2009, 09:58 AM
Tom,
Massive and repeated failures? I have not heard anything like that. Examples?

Tomwilllight
05-22-2009, 11:01 AM
Greg,

I'd call the above report of Nexxus' product failing 60% of the time massive.

Naomi has contacts throughout the industry and has discussed significant failures experienced by other nationally known Architectural Lighting Designers with me. In a particularly bad case in the west, the drivers failed 4 times and the entire original system was scrapped only to be replaced and fail yet again. This is not the only such failure she has shared with me in the last year.

When I caution Landscape Lighting Designers to take care when specifying large LED installations, I am expressing my concern about the liabilities other small businesses persons' may be accepting when dealing with manufacturers who may, or may not, stand behind their product.

LEDs are getting better; that is a fact. But, more importantly is the reality that the market has not yet finished winnowing out the good from the bad.

If I were considering an installation on the scale jshimmin is, I would only talk to the people who can and will supply the names and contact information of endusers who has used the product in a similar project that has successfully operated for a considerable period of time.

I've talked with Shermann at DG Lights and was impressed with his candor about the future and realities of LEDs. Sean's suggestion is a good one.

I would also strongly suggest jshimmin talk to Color Kinetics. They are now a part of Philips and have been the leaders in LEDs since the beginning. They have a lot of projects out there, including a major one down the hill from my home that has been working well for about a year.

Tom

Pro-Scapes
05-22-2009, 07:48 PM
I have had more than a pleasing experience with the diogen line but that has been string lights.

just the other day I got my new DG spot. I am very impressed by the color and output. I am also impressed by the quality of the palm65 and the xt that I have. If I am not mistaken both of these are based on the lamina atlas engine. I will be soon lighting the XT and leaving it lit 24 hours a day.

Other ones I have tried and would stay away from would be the Colorstars and the other little known led junk out there. Like Tom I am still not 100% sold on the reliability of the product. I dont care if the manu stands behind it. If I need to go back and replace it then its soon my reputation for building a reliable system that gets burned out.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
05-23-2009, 12:05 AM
I have had nothing but exceptional performance from the nearly 2000 LED lamps I have installed to date.

Pro-Scapes
05-23-2009, 08:44 AM
I have had more than a pleasing experience with the diogen line but that has been string lights.

just the other day I got my new DG spot. I am very impressed by the color and output. I am also impressed by the quality of the palm65 and the xt that I have. If I am not mistaken both of these are based on the lamina atlas engine. I will be soon lighting the XT and leaving it lit 24 hours a day.

Other ones I have tried and would stay away from would be the Colorstars and the other little known led junk out there. Like Tom I am still not 100% sold on the reliability of the product. I dont care if the manu stands behind it. If I need to go back and replace it then its soon my reputation for building a reliable system that gets burned out.


I apologize for the typo. I meant to say I have had LESS than a pleasing experience with diogen and a 20% failure rate over 9 mo

Tomwilllight
05-27-2009, 11:21 PM
James,

The conversation is about commercial quality LED fixtures in "Hot-Lanta" Georgia. I really don't think your good experiences with MR16 substitutions directly apply in this application.

Tom

Mike M
05-28-2009, 07:29 AM
The conversation headed strong on LED failure rates for professional architectural and landscape lighting installation: "across the nation."

I value this direction by Doug, James, Billy, etc., and wish we could canvass everyone for their own success/falure rates of specific LED manu's and products.

Pro-Scapes
05-28-2009, 08:21 AM
Mike how are the DG lights holding up ? I would think that pheonix or palm 65 in billet brass would hold up in commercial

Mike M
05-28-2009, 10:04 AM
Great. I recommend the fixture in antique brass or copper, but not the unfinished brass.

Does Sherman have a catalog yet? I need a stainless steel LED if he can do that, but I need it asap.

Tomwilllight
05-28-2009, 10:38 AM
Hi Mike,

After a quick look at the DG web site it appears they don't have a Stainless Steel option. If true, I'll make a bet that the reason DG Lights doesn't list a Stainless option is its' very poor thermal characteristics. It is a fact that SS just doesn't wick heat away as efficiently as aluminum. Result? A stainless luminaire gets very hot compared to other materials. If you check manufacturers who offer a choice of machined stainless, brass and aluminum bullets, you'll notice that the stainless (and usually the brass too) luminaires are de-rated. If the aluminum is rated for 50 watts max, the brass and certainly the stainless steel will be rated for a max of 35 watts.

Because poor heat tolerance is one of the major issues for LEDs, I'd strongly suggest you consider aluminum.

I do like the deep cooling fins on the DG product. Does anyone have enough experience with them to suggest a track-record?

Tom

Mike M
05-28-2009, 11:02 AM
Tom;

Aluminum is one of the best materials for shedding heat. But it also is oxidizes badly, unless if it's a decent grade alloy.

Stainless steel as a finish over brass would be good for me, here at the beach. I'm looking at similar looks, such as brushed nickel, chrome, etc. that would match stainless steel outdoor ovens.

I should ask James about stainless steel experience combined with the retro bulbs.

Tomwilllight
05-28-2009, 11:57 AM
Some folks I know who have worked in the Caribbean have custom finished aluminum with auto finishes with good results. I'd suggest you talk to someone who does custom auto finishes near the coast for more info.

When talking with my good friend James, remember that he's basing his opinions entirely upon his personal experience. I'm sure you can find a record of our conversations in this forum. The lovely pine forests of Southern Ontario are very unlike the piney woods of Georgia. I believe I speak with some authority as one born and educated in Georgia who has lived in Vermont and upstate NY for 20 years.

If you know someone who has laid a true stainless finish over brass, I want to know who they are. Usually it's some sort of zinc finish and you'll have to decide if that'll work for you.

One way you can moderate the heat build-up, in a retrofit situation, is to use volume to reduce the heat. Select a fixture that is physically larger and it will offer increased surface area to speed up the heat exchange. You may want to look at a fixture like Vision 3's FL4. It's rated for 75 watts and is available in brass with stainless components. They will also finish it with a quality silver powder-coat if you need a "bright" metal look.

I'm fairly sure a powder-coat finish will reduce the ability to exchange heat to some extent. It has to do with micropores in the metal that increase surface area and help with wicking heat.

I don't know if larger fixture will increase the life of any MR16 retrofit LED, I'm only making an educated guess. Perhaps there's someone else on-line here who has personal experience in a climate similar to yours.

Good luck,
Tom

JoeyD
05-28-2009, 12:08 PM
here is a brass fixture with a nickle/SS PVD finish coating!

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/lighting/P1050348.jpg

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/lighting/P1050349.jpg

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/lighting/SaturnPVD.jpg

And our Titanium Knight stainless copy powdercoat

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/lighting/P1050415.jpg

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/lighting/DSC_0779.jpg

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/lighting/DSC_0787.jpg

irrig8r
05-28-2009, 12:44 PM
Tom;

Aluminum is one of the best materials for shedding heat. But it also is oxidizes badly, unless if it's a decent grade alloy.




DG uses the same "aircraft grade" alloy as FX.

I have never seen corrosion or finish issues on an FX product. It's the only aluminum alloy product I install anymore (and in the near future, DG)

I've had some problems with Vista aluminum fixtures (always covered under warranty of course, but who needs that hassle) and more serious corrosion problems with both Hadco and Nightscaping aluminum.

Tomwilllight
05-28-2009, 01:38 PM
Hi Joey,

What does "brass fixture with a nickle/SS PVD finish coating" mean exactly? I looked at the Unique web site and found very little technical information. Could it be that I just missed it?

Thanks,
Tom

Tomwilllight
05-28-2009, 01:54 PM
The best source of information on corrosion and landscape lighting is in Jan Moyer's: THE LANDSCAPE LIGHTING BOOK. In the 2nd edition, Chapter 8 is titled "Corrosion, Materials and Finishes." It's all there.

Tom

JoeyD
05-28-2009, 01:56 PM
no we never got our PVD line fully off the ground. Just as we were set for a formal release is when the economy took a dump. We didnt see an extremly high end line of products taking off so we have put the line on hold for now.

PVD is a plating process different from "dipping"

"Physical Vapor Deposition (PVD) is an environmentally friendly vacuum coating process that provides brilliant and durable decorative finishes on household appliances, plumbing fixtures, door hardware, jewelry, electronic components, automotive trim and marine fittings."

Tomwilllight
05-28-2009, 02:12 PM
Right! We just renovated our kitchen and that's where I heard PVD.

Thanks Joey!

Tom

JoeyD
05-28-2009, 02:21 PM
you got it!

jshimmin
05-28-2009, 04:08 PM
I'm doing demo's with Nexxus Lighting and Color Kenetics tomorrow. I am concerned about the aluminum fixtures both offer.
I just left a rip out and re-install that had aluminum fixtures that were garbage after three years.
Color Kenetics has offered to build fixtures using only the Blue LED's as the R and G's will not be needed.
After this research looks like some more commercial jobs are popping up.