Kick Backs $$$$$$$$

[totallpm]

Do any of you have to pay kick backs to property managers. I have been aproached a few times over the years for kick backs and are mostly requested under the table.

Do you have this situation ?

How do you deal with it ?

Usually I get out of them but I have noticed on occasion proposals going to others.

Kevin Total Landscaping:blob2::blob2: :blob2: :blob2: :blob2:

[jaybird24]

Kickbacks? for what. Their job is to hire you- in a way you are subcontracted through them. Most are set up on a budget from the property owners and whatever they can hire the work out for and come under budget is their profit. I wouldnt give them a kickback- maybe a kick upside their frickin melon.

[totallpm]

I agree.

One manager did not allow us to do any extras. The only thing we could do was cut, trim edge and blow. He had all of his guys on his payroll to do the extras. He was paying 8.00 to his guys and billing the association 25.00 a hour. He was recieving 12.00 per door to manage and was to recieve no kick backs.

He was going to get his cash one way or another.

there is alot of scum out there.

Was curious if you feel you have lost bids to corrupt prop managers.

Kevin Total Landscaping

[Krimick]

I have one property manager like this, always looking for a way to get himself involved in every job. I try to limit my dealings with him to the bare minimum.

It's hard enough to make money and the property managers are already getting paid quite well.

[awm]

if the truth about this and real lg accts ever came out,it would.
NOT SURPRIZE ANYONE.not that i think they are all this way,
but it happens.

[ProMo]

the office i do now i used to service the pm house many years ago was called to do office and include there house in the office bid they want there yard fertilized said to put it on office bill as irrigation repair

[f350]

welcome to business 101. many shun this idea but it truly is the heart of the american economy. how do you think automotive venders move products?

[KerryB]

Yeah I found out about kickbacks the hard way. I lost an apartment complex to a moonlighting cop who is sleeping with the manager. lol
Dont think my wife would let me pay her more than the cop is.lol

[heygrassman]

Where do you stop with the dough?? Maintenance Mgr, Property manager (who in most of my dealings with other products does not make the decisions), General Manager, District Manager, VP over the DM... man this can go forever. Also you start paying one, think they talk to each other??

Would I cut the yard if they did not live onsite, eh maybe, cash i seriously doubt it.

jf

[John Allin]

Won't do it.
Period.

[f350]

attitudes like these are the reason so few are on top of the food chain. look at where most companies fall in the greens industry. business is business.... you always need to keep an open mind.
but thats just how i see it, spend a little to make alot. i can tell you from experiance i have not paid for a concert or boxing match in a long time. oh thanks to a certain property manager for the (2) 2k tyson fight tickets....

[wallzwallz]

F350, I think John Allin comes in pretty high on the food chain. Kickbacks are BS, I've never done this and I will not kickback. Most of the PM's who want kickbacks are scumbags anyhow.

[rodfather]

"kickbacks" are not in rodfather's dictionary...case closed i'm afraid.

[f350]

some things i cannot figure out about this forum is as follows:
(1) why members never see the big picture when reading post. was the last post directed to a member, no names were mentioned.
(2) why do most lco's have ego's the size of zepplins?


I think the greens industry would be alot better off if owners and operators realized that this is a business just like any other. maybe it's an industry that is way to easy to get into. if joe lawn guy graduates from school tomorrow he cant say crap i'm a cpa and i'll start an accounting firm today. but he can say man i'll start a lawn company. instead of spending an additional 2k on a rider spend that money on training, or marketing. imho the guy's who say flyers dont work, or i only take refferals probly just shut doors of oportunity before they left the shop. another foolish thing to me is believing that quality of work will win accounts. well sorry to tell you manufactures are all striving for one thing, quality with minimal operator error. those same guy's everyone cry babies about you know scrubs and cut throats, well there buying the same equipment that you are from the same dealer.
i'm sorry for getting off topic but i see this everyday. i might read this on a forum or see it driving down the road. as far as marketing i can sell lawn crack with best of them, so you guy's saying that certain stratigies dont work probly have holes in the plan.

[bruces]

Most important point here, kickbacks are probably illegal in most, if not all forms.

If you are mowing a business property and the owner wants you to service his house and bill it to the business, maybe not illegal, questionable maybe, but if he is cheating on his taxes, that is his problem.

On the other hand, if you pay a property manager a kickback under the table, you are both probably doing something illegal.

I haven't been faced with this, but I don't need any work enough to risk facing legal problems to get it.

And yes, I have seen cases around here of contractors and purchasing agents going to jail for being part of kickback schemes.

[landscaper3]

I agree with John and Rodfather: wont do it. Bad way to run a business almost like a scrub would do LOL!!

[f350]

some call it bad business, i call it perks

[P&J Lawncare]

if I am bidding on a $80,000 account and the only way to get it is to play ball with the person taking the bid, I won"t think twice about giving him a kickback. You can bet that the job will go to the company that provided a kickback. I don't think you should try to buy the account by offering a kickback but if they bring it up then you almost have to or you can forget about the account. The person in charge of accepting bids was hired by his company so they must respect his opionon or he wouldn't be in the position in the first place. Kickbacks are a part of society, from the smallest industry to the largest. I don't agree with it but it is a big part of everyday america.

[rodfather]

kickbacks may be part of our society, but that's a part i don't want to be part of.

no thanks, i'll get business the old fashion way, i'll earn it.

[John Allin]

And they wonder why the public thinks we're guys that can't find real jobs.....

I've never paid a kickback, and I never will.
And I seem to have survived fairly well.

[Randy Scott]

Been awhile since I've posted. Probably because 9 out of 10 threads is someone asking for bid help. I've never known so many businesses that needed to ask someone else to price mowing or some other service they allegedly perform for them. Anyways, before I start on a tangent over that.

So far in my short time I have been in business, I haven't had to resort to these practices of "kickbacks" to secure my services. I certainly never plan on it and don't feel I'm the type of person to have to. To me, taking a kickback is because you are perhaps lacking somewhere with you're services therefore have to "buy" your work. I feel if you provide a quality service and fair price, work will come to you. The clients that require a kickback are most likely people I'd rather not deal with or be around. And next season when the next guy offers a better kickback, you can pick your bags up at the curb. I think that's a vicious circle I'll stay out of. I guess we all have our opinions and ethics when it comes to business. If you can sleep at night based on how you operate your business, I guess that's all that matters. :)

[totallpm]

One of the reasons I origonally brought this up is one of our larger accounts (40K per year) got a new property manager. He requested a 5% kick back and $2.00 per man hour. I was so teed off about it that when I called him back to negotiate I taped the conversation. I just brought it to the board of the homeowners association today and they picked up the phone and fired him.

I will not get the contract back this year since they hired another company when I refused to play his game.

I don't mind giving gifts every once in a while to thank someone for thier support. But I do that on my own and it is not requested by anyone.


Kevin Total landscaping

[Lanelle]

Given the evidence you have on this situation, you may have a strong case to petition for a re-bid of the contract. Seems like the company that was given the bid should be questioned about this issue by the HOA. Life is much better when you work above board. No need to look over your shoulder.

[P&J Lawncare]

John if it wasn't for kickbacks you wouldn't of been plowing for the olympics this year. It is a known fact that there was millions of dollars of kickbacks involved with bringing the olympics to salt lake city and if not for those kickbacks the olympics probably would of been somewhere else. I am not saying that you were involved in any of this, but for you to say that the public views our profession as people that can't get real jobs because we understand that kickbacks are a part of this buisiness is a little extreme. I personally have never given anyone money to receive a contract but I have spent plenty of money on other things to get a contract (lunches,catering,donatations) and I believe that this is part of doing buisiness when you are dealing with high dollar accounts. If anyone thinks that we as a profession are lowlifes or bad people for understanding that kickbacks are a part of this buisiness than don't ever run for politics because it is much more severe the further up the ladder you go. John I respect what you have accomplished in this industry and believe you when you say that you have never given a kickback but lets remember that a kickback doesn't have to be money it can be as simple as sending lunch to someone or donating poinsettia's for christmas.

[David Haggerty]

Thanks for 'taking out the trash". Actions like yours help clean it up for all of us. You should be commended.
That HOAs' second phone call should be to the prosecutors office.


P&J Lawncare;
Your terminology is too broad. What you're referring to is legitimate business practices. What this thread has been discussing is criminal activity.


It seems to me the people who believe corruption is the way to succeed are among the first to fail.

Dave

[f350]

it did not start as criminal activity. it was posted as kickbacks. i see the terminology was to broad right from the begining, i agree money kick back are not cool. but gifts, donations and dinners
( nudy bar ) i find those all acceptable.

[P&J Lawncare]

this thread started as a discussion about kickbacks and I am just trying to say that kickbacks are a part of this buisiness. What I am referring to is considered legitimate buisiness practices but it is also a kickback as minor as it might be it is still considered a kickback.

[MJ]

I may be wrong, but I'm assuming that a "kickback" referred to here is the same as "Quid pro quo" - where something is given with the understanding that something will received in return. A kickback would then be a contract given with the expectation that money will be recieved in return. Common business practices differ in that one party (or several parties) is hoping to influence the decision of another with a meal, gift etc. Completely different than a kickback. The recipient of the meal or gift is not obligated to the giver.

Kickbacks in government (and politics) are highly illegal and have resulted in some serious jail time. Gifts are very regulated in the value that can be accepted, etc.

[Nebraska]

The "kick backs" go on here and I know of two companies that do it.... It steams the crap out of me! Been approached two time by a maintenance director and property manager to do work at their house and bill the company as work done at the business property! (not their company as far as ownership either). Said no both times and lost the accounts immediately withing 2 weeks! There is something bigger to life and my existence and as such I refuse to move my business forward this way, even it it takes me longer to reach my goals...Liken it to selling your soul to the Devil which is basically what it is!

[John Allin]

P&J,
You have missunderstood my previous post. I was not intending to insinuate that those in our profession operate this way.... I was stating that because of some of the posts (in this thread) that seem to state that kickbacks are an acceptable part of doing business - it fuels the fire of perception that 'we are people that cannot find real jobs'. In no way was I agreeing with the statement. I, for one, think we are all professionals - but I don't agree with kicking back to property managers (or others) to get a piece of business.

And, you are right - we were not involved in any sort of kickbacks to get our Olympic project. In fact, after the initial fiasco, the Salt Lake Olympic Committtee was a squeeky clean as you can get (abit like closing the barn door after the horse's have escaped - I admit), but they did clean up the act a lot.

[garydale]

Never paid a kick back and never will! Further, I would let the world know who ask for the K/B and turn him in if I can.

I have seen it in all phases of maintenance ie: paint contractors, roofers, plumbers were the worst. especially in NY. & NJ.

Have some pride and protect the industry.

It took 40 years for me to form my opinion.

[LawnLad]

Too many people operate in only the black and white range of things.

Life is 10% black, 10% white and 80% gray. Cash kickbacks and the such are in the 10%. How much you do with flowers, meals, etc. could be the cost of doing business or "kick backs" depending on how you view things. Each person has to decide how they want to operate. I think the law makes certain things real easy to understand and what falls into the 10% - it's your ethics that determine if you're going to operate legally or illegally. Your morality will determine what shade of gray you choose on any given circumstance.

[John Allin]

I find that 'thank you' cards are enough......

[creative concepts]

I have never and will never to kickbacks. I agree with John Allin that thank you cards, letters and personal appearances are more than sufficient. It really boils down to a question of morals.

Since some of you think that kickbacks are acceptable, an everyday occurence in the business world and not illegal, does that mean that you support insider trading? After all, that is just another form of a kickback is it not? One perk for an employee of a company that has some info? By you and all the others that do "cash kickbacks", it makes it that much harder for the rest of us to get out of the typical " all the landscapers are the same. They just want money." stereotype. And to answer another one of the comments on this post, if you work shows quality then yes you can get a lot of referal work from it and you can stand behind it and be proud of it. This way you can say I received the job for the quality of work that I do not how much cash you gave someone.

[Russo]

Paying for someone's lunch IS different from paying off someone to get work. One is a courtesy, and the other is crooked! If you've been asked to participate in a kickback, it's easy to recognize the difference. Been offered kickbacks and been asked to provide 'em....not in my vocab either. Word travels fast and there is no repect for a crook. Won't do it.

[65hoss]

I don't do kickbacks either. No thanks, but I don't give money to someone just to make money. Not the way I will do business.

F350, seeing some of you recent post your not anyone I would take advice from. But hey, being on lawnsite hurts your income anyway.

[Russo]

65hoss,

Thank you for saying what many of us wanted to say about a certain poster.

Millenium Member Status at it's finest.

[Tim Canavan]

:blob2:
I will never give my hard earned money to someone for doing what I was hired to do in the first place. I like the idea of tape recording that conversation. Great idea.
I would take someone to lunch or fishing or to a game, but only if they didn't ask and if I was going too. :cool:

[Tony Harrell]

Very unethical. The older I get, the more I understand what "Karma" means. Not all businesses operate in the grey areas.