Problem with a well system

[DanaMac]

One of my techs is having a problem with a system on a well. I have not been to it yet. Older home. Probably an older well and pump. Owner moved in late last year, doesn't know how the system ran prior to moving in.

System runs front and back.
Manifold system. All valves at same place. Front works fine. Heads come up, continue to spray fine.
Back system is the problem. 2 of the 3 zones come up at the beginning, full force and distance, and then back down to where the rotors spray 10'.
He dug up a lot of the pipe looking for a root constriction between the valves and the first head. Maybe 20'-30'. No root problems.
Third zone in back won't come up at all.
He says the valves are all the same - older 205s.
I personally think it's in the valves. He took one apart and replaced the diaphragm, as that was all he had for a 205 at that time. I'm thinking that little plastic tube/port from the under side of the top, that is below the solenoid area, is pinched.

Any thoughts? I'm doubting it's the pump at this point. I will be going there Tuesday to look at it. I admittedly know very little about wells and pumps. Not many here.

[Tony Clifton]

Do you know if it is on a bladder tank or a pump start relay?

[DanaMac]

Do you know if it is on a bladder tank or a pump start relay?

Pretty positive it's a relay.

[DanaMac]

As a matter of fact, I know it is. He can't operate without the controller, as he did tell me there is a relay switch. it originally had a loose wire.

[irritation]

Submersible or centrifugal? Friction loss could be a problem even between the front and back yards with a clogged screen or worn impellers.

[DanaMac]

Submersible or centrifugal?

That I do not know.

He said the front and back are designed with about the same number of rotor heads on each zone. Not much of a difference in total length for pipe.

[Wet_Boots]

Obviously, you can try a guts replacement. And probe the port in the valve body with a flag.

Do any of the valves make noises like they're restricting flow?

[DanaMac]

Obviously, you can try a guts replacement. And probe the port in the valve body with a flag.

Do any of the valves make noises like they're restricting flow?

I think the first thing I will do, is a complete replacement of ONE valve. 15-20 minutes.

Not sure of noise

[Mike Leary]

Prollly the other zones are not enough to get above the 60-40 switch and cut in the pump.
I've ganged zones and got the pump on line.

[DanaMac]

Prollly the other zones are not enough to get above the 60-40 switch and cut in the pump.
I've ganged zones and got the pump on line.

he was actually there last week as well, and I had him try wiring two valves together to see if it would help. Nothing.

[Mike Leary]

Prollly the other zones are not enough to get above the 60-40 switch and cut in the pump. I've ganged zones and got the pump on line.

[DanaMac]

Deja vu mikey??

[Tony Clifton]

If it's on a relay there won't be a switch

[Wet_Boots]

If the valves are restricting flow enough to kill a zone, you will hear it.

[DanaMac]

If it's on a relay there won't be a switch

I've just always called it a relay "switch". No physical switch to throw.

[DanaMac]

If the valves are restricting flow enough to kill a zone, you will hear it.

Not when I'm 15 miles away I won't :)
Will find out Tuesday

[Mike Leary]

Deja vu mikey??

Bingo, I hate that 60-40 b.s. :hammerhead:

[DanaMac]

Bingo, I hate those switches. :hammerhead:

I was talking about the double post.

[Mike Leary]

I was talking about the double post.

Trying to make a point, I guess; have had problems like that for years.

[Tony Clifton]

I've just always called it a relay "switch". No physical switch to throw.

Gotcha, I thought you were talking about the pressure switch, most of the ones we see are set at 60/40

[AI Inc]

If it was me I would dig the first head in the rear yard that comes up weak, dig the valve that runs it and run a temp above ground pipe . See what happens.
Others will disagree.

[AI Inc]

When you do get there I wouldnt even touch the front yet, try turning on the back while the well has full pressure.

[jirrigation]

When you do get there I wouldnt even touch the front yet, try turning on the back while the well has full pressure.

That would be my suggestion as well...It's possible that after checking the zones in the front, you've taken out so much water from that well in checking the front that the water is now too deep for the motor to pump it up, causing low pressure. I've had that problem before..system runs fine for 15 or so minutes then pressure gradually decreases.

[Wet_Boots]

Good point - see what the back yard does with an undepleted well. Just because it never ran dry before doesn't mean it can't be running dry this year.

[AI Inc]

Not just that , filling the system will always wack the well. Ive got several systems where we have to turn the water on filling mains. Fill 1/2 the zones without even inspecting. Leave , do a couple of neighbors and then come back

[Wet_Boots]

Of course, in a perfect world, there would never be a pump in a well that was capable of running it dry......

[AI Inc]

Tha answer may just be sitting on the pressure gauge waiting to tell you.

[unit28]

velocity good, pressure got depleted.

after opening the farthest zone first, if it's still inoperable flush the valves.

how many heads on the farthest zone compared to the others?

maybe cap a few off?

[DanaMac]

He tried capping heads. No good. Closest zone in back works just as bad as the farthest.

AI - yesterday he did not even turn the front section on. They had painters or something up front. The front worked great last week. So when he turned it on yesterday it was just the back from the beginning.

Thanks for the answers so far. I'll be checking it next week and get back to you.

[Mdirrigation]

turn off the water and then take the guts out of 1 of the suspect valves , run the system if it works its the valve if it doesnt its a supply problem

[DanaMac]

turn off the water and then take the guts out of 1 of the suspect valves , run the system if it works its the valve if it doesnt its a supply problem

You know, I told him to do that as well, but it was after he was tired and frustrated and packed everything up. We're getting enough rain that it's not an "emergency". But I will probably do that when I get there.

I actually have one 205 diaphragm that I cut out the middle. Only the outer ring for more of a gasket. I had done that for a similar problem years ago.

[Wet_Boots]

If you can't make an R-204 perform, you are a piker. ;)

[bicmudpuppy]

Another thought, and for it to have happened on three zones would be really wild, but I've seen similar before because someone, before I got there, didn't retrieve the lost washer from the bottom of the 204 diaphragm when they replaced it. Washer went down stream and hung up in a fitting. You just don't get much flow through that washer as opposed to a full open pipe. Also, a pressure gauge where you can check it while the offending zones are running will help. I would expect a boiler drain in a manifold box up in that part of the world.

[TRILAWNCARE]

That would be my suggestion as well...It's possible that after checking the zones in the front, you've taken out so much water from that well in checking the front that the water is now too deep for the motor to pump it up, causing low pressure. I've had that problem before..system runs fine for 15 or so minutes then pressure gradually decreases.

BINGO.... That would be my first guess also. Well running dry.. Has it been a fairly dry spring?

What happens when you turn the front zones back on after the rear zones have gone to crap. Does the front run normal again???? Don't tell me he didn't try this...


Total Dynamic Head is the total distance from the water level to the highest point that water must be pumped, including friction losses. Take the water level in the well down 40-50' and you will lose around 20PSI. Starting out with 40-50 PSI that really hurts. .433 PSI loss per foot.


Never know why a gauge is not hooked on a system to tell what the pressure at the pump is doing. This should be the first thing on any system with a pressure problem, well or no well. It's so easy, hook up gauge, turn on system, read gauge, sit back and enjoy the sunshine, eat your lunch, talk to the cute girl next door, and wait until the zone starts acting up, then read gauge. Hmmmm, presssure drop at pump. What's that tell ya. Instead of running around diggin up heads, capping them off, diggin up valves and swapping guts, unearthing miles of pipe and looking for tree roots and lost parts..... A cheap $7.00 gauge hooked to a hose bib might save you a lot of headache and time.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41gBYjUrc2L._SL500_AA280_.jpg

Now with all the rain that you said you are getting the water table and well recovery rate might be high enough that you will not be able to replicate the problem, next week when you return, and then you will be scratching your head even more. But at least then you will know what the problem was. Right?

You might just need to program in a cycle soak to give the well a chance to recover durring dry periods.

[Wet_Boots]

So how about some photos of the cute girl next door?

[TRILAWNCARE]

So how about some photos of the cute girl next door?

I knew someone was going to pick up on that.....

http://www.hotchickswith******bags.com/uploaded_images/DB2080-739387.jpg

[Wet_Boots]

His pecs look bigger than hers....

[AI Inc]

Dana , has anyone spoken to the customer about activity at the site? Dog fence install , aeration, ect?

[DanaMac]

SO I went back and looked at this one today with my tech that was already there before. It was NOT the 205s, it was 2400s for valves.

It is definitely something with the well and pump. First zone works GREAT for about 30-60 seconds, and then falls off about 50% in distance. All zones are doing this. AND - it occasionally trips the breaker. So I figure it is the pump/motor. Well guy is coming out tomorrow.

Wish I would've told my guy to bail earlier, instead of digging up for a restriction on the prior day. Not too many well systems here in town. And he had not encountered this before. Lesson learned.

[TRILAWNCARE]

SO I went back and looked at this one today with my tech that was already there before. It was NOT the 205s, it was 2400s for valves.

It is definitely something with the well and pump. First zone works GREAT for about 30-60 seconds, and then falls off about 50% in distance. All zones are doing this. AND - it occasionally trips the breaker. So I figure it is the pump/motor. Well guy is coming out tomorrow.

Wish I would've told my guy to bail earlier, instead of digging up for a restriction on the prior day. Not too many well systems here in town. And he had not encountered this before. Lesson learned.

Your welcome... :)

[Mike Leary]

Wish I would've told my guy to bail earlier, instead of digging up for a restriction on the prior day. Not too many well systems here in town. And he had not encountered this before. Lesson learned.

Yup, I got used to telling my guys if they could not find the problem in a hour, call me; we're wasting time and (my) money.