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View Full Version : Saw my first Bad Boy... and bought it!


brucec
06-09-2009, 05:37 PM
I finally got to demo a Bad Boy mower and it is an incredible machine. Pictures don't do it justice. I was 99% sure I was going to get a toro and was leaning towards a grand stand, but I just hung up with the Bad Boy dealer and bought a 32hp lightning z. Those of you who dog Bad Boy are absolutely wrong about this machine. I got this machine with the 32 hp vangard 60" deck for $8075 tax included, roughly $600 more than a grand stand. Don't get me wrong I loved the grand stand but I was sportin' a 3/4 chubby when when I got off of the Bad Boy! I looked at almost every brand available to me in this area and I knew instantly when I got off of the bad boy I was buying it! Thanks to the LS members for taking the time to answer all of my questions about the bad boy's especially dwost, nosparkplugs, and retrodog, and a couple of others as well. You guys are the reason I love lawnsite and people like you help make it such a valuable tool, Thanks for helping me make my decision! Hey nosparkplugs, I now see why you are so passionate about your machine but don't let these guys get to you. I'll post some pics this weekend when I pick it up. Thanks again to all those that I talked to about bad boy as well as other brands!

ALC-GregH
06-09-2009, 05:48 PM
Sorry about your luck! :D

johnnybravo8802
06-09-2009, 06:03 PM
Bad Boy makes barbecue sauce also. Did yoy know that?:weightlifter:

puppypaws
06-09-2009, 08:14 PM
I finally got to demo a Bad Boy mower and it is an incredible machine. Pictures don't do it justice. I was 99% sure I was going to get a toro and was leaning towards a grand stand, but I just hung up with the Bad Boy dealer and bought a 32hp lightning z. Those of you who dog Bad Boy are absolutely wrong about this machine. I got this machine with the 32 hp vangard 60" deck for $8075 tax included, roughly $600 more than a grand stand. Don't get me wrong I loved the grand stand but I was sportin' a 3/4 chubby when when I got off of the Bad Boy! I looked at almost every brand available to me in this area and I knew instantly when I got off of the bad boy I was buying it! Thanks to the LS members for taking the time to answer all of my questions about the bad boy's especially dwost, nosparkplugs, and retrodog, and a couple of others as well. You guys are the reason I love lawnsite and people like you help make it such a valuable tool, Thanks for helping me make my decision! Hey nosparkplugs, I now see why you are so passionate about your machine but don't let these guys get to you. I'll post some pics this weekend when I pick it up. Thanks again to all those that I talked to about bad boy as well as other brands!

$7600.00 for that mower is a great price, I believe your sales tax in Illinois is
.0625. The 31 Kawasaki would have cost more money but you will find the 32 Vanguard to be unstoppable, the engine power is truly unbelievable. I honestly don't know of another manufacture offering nearly that much mower, for such a low cost.

Come back and give us all the details after a little seat time.

kb9nvh
06-09-2009, 08:25 PM
LOL...well, like I always say, its better to sell barbecue sauce than to actually try to barbecue the driver like my SCAG tried to do to me.:blob2::blob2::blob2:

Hey look, I added some of those stupid "smiley guys on fire" on the end there..LOL


BTW, I've got my new lightning Z coming in a week or so...I got the 31Kaw..


Bad Boy makes barbecue sauce also. Did yoy know that?:weightlifter:

Hawg City Lawns
06-09-2009, 08:33 PM
a 3/4 chubby haha did you mean 3/4"? jk

MileHigh
06-09-2009, 08:34 PM
Cool.

I want pics please...

tacoma200
06-09-2009, 08:38 PM
I finally got to demo a Bad Boy mower and it is an incredible machine. Pictures don't do it justice. I was 99% sure I was going to get a toro and was leaning towards a grand stand, but I just hung up with the Bad Boy dealer and bought a 32hp lightning z. Those of you who dog Bad Boy are absolutely wrong about this machine. I got this machine with the 32 hp vangard 60" deck for $8075 tax included, roughly $600 more than a grand stand. Don't get me wrong I loved the grand stand but I was sportin' a 3/4 chubby when when I got off of the Bad Boy! I looked at almost every brand available to me in this area and I knew instantly when I got off of the bad boy I was buying it! Thanks to the LS members for taking the time to answer all of my questions about the bad boy's especially dwost, nosparkplugs, and retrodog, and a couple of others as well. You guys are the reason I love lawnsite and people like you help make it such a valuable tool, Thanks for helping me make my decision! Hey nosparkplugs, I now see why you are so passionate about your machine but don't let these guys get to you. I'll post some pics this weekend when I pick it up. Thanks again to all those that I talked to about bad boy as well as other brands!

Congratulation, hope you get a lot of good hours of of it.

nosparkplugs
06-09-2009, 08:56 PM
I finally got to demo a Bad Boy mower and it is an incredible machine. Pictures don't do it justice. I was 99% sure I was going to get a toro and was leaning towards a grand stand, but I just hung up with the Bad Boy dealer and bought a 32hp lightning z. Those of you who dog Bad Boy are absolutely wrong about this machine. I got this machine with the 32 hp vangard 60" deck for $8075 tax included, roughly $600 more than a grand stand. Don't get me wrong I loved the grand stand but I was sportin' a 3/4 chubby when when I got off of the Bad Boy! I looked at almost every brand available to me in this area and I knew instantly when I got off of the bad boy I was buying it! Thanks to the LS members for taking the time to answer all of my questions about the bad boy's especially dwost, nosparkplugs, and retrodog, and a couple of others as well. You guys are the reason I love lawnsite and people like you help make it such a valuable tool, Thanks for helping me make my decision! Hey nosparkplugs, I now see why you are so passionate about your machine but don't let these guys get to you. I'll post some pics this weekend when I pick it up. Thanks again to all those that I talked to about bad boy as well as other brands!

I was in the same boat myself when I purchased my Bad Boy; excepet I had zero help, never demo'd a Bad Boy, rode a lightning around a parking lot. I got my eyes on the big gas AOS model, but still purchased the AOS diesel sight unseen, only pics until I took delivery. Folks seem to think your sacrficing something if your not running a particular band ZTR, bottom line you get more for your hard earned money investing in a Bad Boy.The folks at Bad Boy should you have questions or need blades,belts or parts will take your order, no need to drive to a dealer, you get free shipping, and great service directly from Bad Boy. Congrats,!!
Posted via Mobile Device

sfddelta1
06-09-2009, 10:26 PM
LOL...well, like I always say, its better to sell barbecue sauce than to actually try to barbecue the driver like my SCAG tried to do to me.:blob2::blob2::blob2:

Hey look, I added some of those stupid "smiley guys on fire" on the end there..LOL


BTW, I've got my new lightning Z coming in a week or so...I got the 31Kaw..

those must have been some rookies that put your mower out. Their bunker gear was might shiney

E

kb9nvh
06-09-2009, 10:34 PM
Well, I didn't want to say anything but when they first tried to put it out with water the huge plume of flame when the water hit the burning gas was quite impressive. They finally put it out white a solid chemical extinguisher. In their defense, they said they were trying to get their foam to work (I guess it works with the water hose) and were unable to in the 20 extra minutes they were spraying my mower down while it continued to flame. Since it took them 10-15 min to get there the mower was a pretty complete loss before they got there so it didn't bother me that they couldn't get it put out for a while.


those must have been some rookies that put your mower out. Their bunker gear was might shiney

E

sfddelta1
06-09-2009, 10:39 PM
Well, I didn't want to say anything but when they first tried to put it out with water the huge plume of flame when the water hit the burning gas was quite impressive. They finally put it out white a solid chemical extinguisher. In their defense, they said they were trying to get their foam to work (I guess it works with the water hose) and were unable to in the 20 extra minutes they were spraying my mower down while it continued to flame. Since it took them 10-15 min to get there the mower was a pretty complete loss before they got there so it didn't bother me that they couldn't get it put out for a while.

depending on their system they either have a foam system on the truck or they induct into the line out of a bucket just like on a pressure washer. Water and gas dont mix. I had to do one in hot springs like that last year cause we did not have a working dry chem on the truck. I had to pretty much blow the fire out. It took 3 tries cause the hot metal kept relighting the gasoline.

E

puppypaws
06-09-2009, 10:57 PM
depending on their system they either have a foam system on the truck or they induct into the line out of a bucket just like on a pressure washer. Water and gas dont mix. I had to do one in hot springs like that last year cause we did not have a working dry chem on the truck. I had to pretty much blow the fire out. It took 3 tries cause the hot metal kept relighting the gasoline.

E

Why was the dry chemical application system not working?

retrodog
06-10-2009, 12:13 AM
Congrats man, I am gonna have to check out the big vanguards a little more, I have never mowed on one, but keep hearing great things about them. We push the LC Kawasaki's really hard here. The only vanguard I mowed on so far and have any experience with was the 23hp, but wasn't overly impressed with it. The factory is pushing me into trying the big blocks out, they claim its one of their best engines.

sfddelta1
06-10-2009, 12:18 AM
Why was the dry chemical application system not working?


the fire dept that i was on over there did not mantain their equipment so the dry chem estingh was not charged. Sometimes you have to improvise.

E

puppypaws
06-10-2009, 12:53 AM
the fire dept that i was on over there did not mantain their equipment so the dry chem estingh was not charged. Sometimes you have to improvise.

E

There is no such thing as not maintaining fire equipment in this part of the country, that can be the difference in someone living or dieing. The equipment and fire personnel (including volunteers), are subject to military intense inspections at all times, and there better not be any piece of equipment not in perfect working order.

Congrats man, I am gonna have to check out the big vanguards a little more, I have never mowed on one, but keep hearing great things about them. We push the LC Kawasaki's really hard here. The only vanguard I mowed on so far and have any experience with was the 23hp, but wasn't overly impressed with it. The factory is pushing me into trying the big blocks out, they claim its one of their best engines.

The people at the Bad Boy factory say they cannot tell any difference in power between the big block 35 Vanguard and the 35 Cat power-wise on the AOS. I personally find this a little hard to believe, but the big block Vanguards are very strong. You need to get a 32 Vanguard on a Lightning and give us a comparison on power and fuel between it and the 31 Kawi.

nosparkplugs
06-10-2009, 01:07 AM
The people at the Bad Boy factory say they cannot tell any difference in power between the big block 35 Vanguard and the 35 Cat power-wise on the AOS. I personally find this a little hard to believe, but the big block Vanguards are very strong. You need to get a 32 Vanguard on a Lightning and give us a comparison on power and fuel between it and the 31 Kawi.[/QUOTE]


PP, you really need to get names when you quote things like this:confused: I have spoken with many of the Factory people at Bad Boy, During the first 100hours of use on Our AOS diesel. If you look at the torque ratings or torque rise vs RPM on these two engines it's not even fair.


With a 35Hp Big Block any money you save on the air cooled engine option you will burn up in fuel cost period. The fuel savings of the 4 cylinder Cat diesel is just mind boggling, It burns less fuel than our Walker MT20 with a 20hp 639cc air cooled Kohler V-twin.

Only good thing about the 35hp Big block is it gets you close to the 4 cylinder Cat diesel, nothing is equal yet:nono:

After 110hours of use, the Cat diesel power spoils you, aka you get use to it, so them my favorite feature is the fuel savings. That makes diesel hands down my ZTR powerplant of choice now:cool2:

brucec
06-10-2009, 02:00 AM
Sorry about your luck! :D

1 thing they didn't have as an option is the self destruct mode that the scags offer, other than that it's ok. I don't like fire fighters standing over my smoldering equipment with hoses. LOL!!!

Razorblades
06-10-2009, 02:23 AM
I finally got to demo a Bad Boy mower and it is an incredible machine. Pictures don't do it justice. I was 99% sure I was going to get a toro and was leaning towards a grand stand, but I just hung up with the Bad Boy dealer and bought a 32hp lightning z. Those of you who dog Bad Boy are absolutely wrong about this machine. I got this machine with the 32 hp vangard 60" deck for $8075 tax included, roughly $600 more than a grand stand. Don't get me wrong I loved the grand stand but I was sportin' a 3/4 chubby when when I got off of the Bad Boy! I looked at almost every brand available to me in this area and I knew instantly when I got off of the bad boy I was buying it! Thanks to the LS members for taking the time to answer all of my questions about the bad boy's especially dwost, nosparkplugs, and retrodog, and a couple of others as well. You guys are the reason I love lawnsite and people like you help make it such a valuable tool, Thanks for helping me make my decision! Hey nosparkplugs, I now see why you are so passionate about your machine but don't let these guys get to you. I'll post some pics this weekend when I pick it up. Thanks again to all those that I talked to about bad boy as well as other brands!

Congratulations on the new mower. It should serve you well. Keep us posted on how it handles the different situations that you put it into, as far as cutting and performance. No Kool aid for you though, since you bought a BB.:laugh:

brucec
06-10-2009, 02:48 AM
a 3/4 chubby haha did you mean 3/4"? jk

Have you been talking to my wife again?

dwost
06-10-2009, 09:56 AM
Congrats! Glad I could help and definitely post up some pics when you take delivery!

astrohip
06-10-2009, 04:14 PM
Congrats! I just picked up a Lightning 31hp Kawa with the 52" deck this past weekend (see this (http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=3035040&postcount=292)thread). Love it! Great mower.

I paid $8195 + tax. How did you get such a great deal on yours?

Stuart
Brenham TX

puppypaws
06-10-2009, 06:34 PM
The people at the Bad Boy factory say they cannot tell any difference in power between the big block 35 Vanguard and the 35 Cat power-wise on the AOS. I personally find this a little hard to believe, but the big block Vanguards are very strong. You need to get a 32 Vanguard on a Lightning and give us a comparison on power and fuel between it and the 31 Kawi.


PP, you really need to get names when you quote things like this:confused: I have spoken with many of the Factory people at Bad Boy, During the first 100hours of use on Our AOS diesel. If you look at the torque ratings or torque rise vs RPM on these two engines it's not even fair.


With a 35Hp Big Block any money you save on the air cooled engine option you will burn up in fuel cost period. The fuel savings of the 4 cylinder Cat diesel is just mind boggling, It burns less fuel than our Walker MT20 with a 20hp 639cc air cooled Kohler V-twin.

Only good thing about the 35hp Big block is it gets you close to the 4 cylinder Cat diesel, nothing is equal yet:nono:

After 110hours of use, the Cat diesel power spoils you, aka you get use to it, so them my favorite feature is the fuel savings. That makes diesel hands down my ZTR powerplant of choice now:cool2:[/QUOTE]

Now, you have known me long enough to know, If I say it, I can back it up.
That is not to say I won't make a mistake in transferring information, I am human like everyone else, but not many times will you catch me providing incorrect information.

Kevin Newingham has been with Bad Boy since it was formed, he has run the 35 Vanguard and the 35 Cat diesel in grass knee high to waste high, in attempt to see what would give up. He said you could not tell any difference in power between the 35 Vanguard and the 35 Cat. even knowing the Cat had to be more powerful according to specs.

They put these mowers in all conditions (in testing), to see what would surrender first, and the exact component they wanted to yield was the belt, and this is precisely what took place.

He said you could not tell the difference in power between the 35 Vanguard and the 35 Cat, because neither of the two engines will falter until the belt slips.

I would say that pretty well clarifies exactly what I have claimed the entire time. Kevin also made the statement that the mule drive on the AOS models with horizontal shaft engines pulled about 3 hp away from the deck where the vertical shaft engines on the Lightning delivered a higher percentage of hp to the deck. He said the 35 Vanguard on the AOS with the mule drive was actually dropping back into the 32 hp Vanguard range which was used on the Lightning.

I was explaining to him that I would not have a 28 hp Cat on a 72" AOS, and this engine was proven to me as being very weak. He said the 28 Cat would handle the deck in normal cutting but with the mule drive you were only getting 25 hp to the deck, and heavy cutting would pull it down.

It make no difference what size engine you have, if nothing affects its power until the belt slips, one engine is just as strong as the other.

nosparkplugs
06-10-2009, 08:53 PM
PP, you really need to get names when you quote things like this:confused: I have spoken with many of the Factory people at Bad Boy, During the first 100hours of use on Our AOS diesel. If you look at the torque ratings or torque rise vs RPM on these two engines it's not even fair.


With a 35Hp Big Block any money you save on the air cooled engine option you will burn up in fuel cost period. The fuel savings of the 4 cylinder Cat diesel is just mind boggling, It burns less fuel than our Walker MT20 with a 20hp 639cc air cooled Kohler V-twin.

Only good thing about the 35hp Big block is it gets you close to the 4 cylinder Cat diesel, nothing is equal yet:nono:

After 110hours of use, the Cat diesel power spoils you, aka you get use to it, so them my favorite feature is the fuel savings. That makes diesel hands down my ZTR powerplant of choice now:cool2:

Now, you have known me long enough to know, If I say it, I can back it up.
That is not to say I won't make a mistake in transferring information, I am human like everyone else, but not many times will you catch me providing incorrect information.

Kevin Newingham has been with Bad Boy since it was formed, he has run the 35 Vanguard and the 35 Cat diesel in grass knee high to waste high, in attempt to see what would give up. He said you could not tell any difference in power between the 35 Vanguard and the 35 Cat. even knowing the Cat had to be more powerful according to specs.

They put these mowers in all conditions (in testing), to see what would surrender first, and the exact component they wanted to yield was the belt, and this is precisely what took place.

He said you could not tell the difference in power between the 35 Vanguard and the 35 Cat, because neither of the two engines will falter until the belt slips.

I would say that pretty well clarifies exactly what I have claimed the entire time. Kevin also made the statement that the mule drive on the AOS models with horizontal shaft engines pulled about 3 hp away from the deck where the vertical shaft engines on the Lightning delivered a higher percentage of hp to the deck. He said the 35 Vanguard on the AOS with the mule drive was actually dropping back into the 32 hp Vanguard range which was used on the Lightning.

I was explaining to him that I would not have a 28 hp Cat on a 72" AOS, and this engine was proven to me as being very weak. He said the 28 Cat would handle the deck in normal cutting but with the mule drive you were only getting 25 hp to the deck, and heavy cutting would pull it down.

It make no difference what size engine you have, if nothing affects its power until the belt slips, one engine is just as strong as the other.[/QUOTE]





PP,

I am now running the Dixie Chopper X-blades on the 35hp Cat diesel, let me tell you the X-blades really utilize all the Cat diesel's power, and well before I switched to the DC X-blades/doubles. I called the Bad Boy Factory spoke with Brad about running the Meg-Mo or X-blades or Doubles, and why Bad Boy does not offer the Meg-Mo or X-blades or doubles anymore, his response is the 35hp diesel will run doubles, it was the Gasburner's that were struggling that includes the 35hp Vanguard BB, no more Meg-Mo or X-blades or doubles from the factory. What do you or would you conclude?? if the V-Twin 2 cylinder Air cooled Big Block cannot run doubles it is therefore weaker than the 4 cylinder 35hp Cat diesel.


PP have you demoed a 35hp Cat diesel yet vs the 35HP Vanguard BB?



The 35hp Vanguard is a Poor mans diesel:) lots of Hp/torque for a cheaper price, thats value not a better engine.

The 35Hp Vanguard is 993CC 50ft/lbs @ 2800 rpms 2 cylinders air cooled

The 35Hp Cat diesel is 1,130CC 70ft/lbs @ 1800 rpms 4 cylinder liquid cooled.


The 35hp Vanguard lacks 137CC or 69 quarts to equal the 4 cylinder Cat diesels displacement. Carb vs fuel injection, liquid cooled vs air cooled, Two pistons will work harder than 4 pistons Gas has less BTU's per gallon than diesel. I have to totally disagree.


The air cooled V-Twin Mill must spin's at 2,800 rpm's or an additional 1,000 rpm's to generate the 50ft/lbs vs the Cat diesel generating 70 ft/lbs at 1,800 rpm's the diesel simply does not work as hard.


I will agree the 35hp Vanguard is one hell of an air cooled engine at face value, upon further investigation I would think with as much diesel equipment as you own or operate you would realize you will be going through the Gasoline to keep that Big Block running VS the diesel.

Fuel is MONEY the less I burn, the less my total fuel bill is for the month. The 35hp Vanguard BB is going to burn at least 2.0gal/hr verse the 35hp Cat diesel at .66-75gal/hr. If your cutting a-lot of grass or acre's that a huge savings in fuel cost alone. Enough to justify a diesel engine


As one increases in Hp/torque their is a point where diesel becomes a great option, for my business it is the best option.



I can tell right now were going to lock horns on this one:laugh:

puppypaws
06-10-2009, 09:48 PM
Now, you have known me long enough to know, If I say it, I can back it up.
That is not to say I won't make a mistake in transferring information, I am human like everyone else, but not many times will you catch me providing incorrect information.

Kevin Newingham has been with Bad Boy since it was formed, he has run the 35 Vanguard and the 35 Cat diesel in grass knee high to waste high, in attempt to see what would give up. He said you could not tell any difference in power between the 35 Vanguard and the 35 Cat. even knowing the Cat had to be more powerful according to specs.

They put these mowers in all conditions (in testing), to see what would surrender first, and the exact component they wanted to yield was the belt, and this is precisely what took place.

He said you could not tell the difference in power between the 35 Vanguard and the 35 Cat, because neither of the two engines will falter until the belt slips.

I would say that pretty well clarifies exactly what I have claimed the entire time. Kevin also made the statement that the mule drive on the AOS models with horizontal shaft engines pulled about 3 hp away from the deck where the vertical shaft engines on the Lightning delivered a higher percentage of hp to the deck. He said the 35 Vanguard on the AOS with the mule drive was actually dropping back into the 32 hp Vanguard range which was used on the Lightning.

I was explaining to him that I would not have a 28 hp Cat on a 72" AOS, and this engine was proven to me as being very weak. He said the 28 Cat would handle the deck in normal cutting but with the mule drive you were only getting 25 hp to the deck, and heavy cutting would pull it down.

It make no difference what size engine you have, if nothing affects its power until the belt slips, one engine is just as strong as the other.





PP,

I am now running the Dixie Chopper X-blades on the 35hp Cat diesel, let me tell you the X-blades really utilize all the Cat diesel's power, and well before I switched to the DC X-blades/doubles. I called the Bad Boy Factory spoke with Brad about running the Meg-Mo or X-blades or Doubles, and why Bad Boy does not offer the Meg-Mo or X-blades or doubles anymore, his response is the 35hp diesel will run doubles, it was the Gasburner's that were struggling that includes the 35hp Vanguard BB, no more Meg-Mo or X-blades or doubles from the factory. What do you or would you conclude?? if the V-Twin 2 cylinder Air cooled Big Block cannot run doubles it is therefore weaker than the 4 cylinder 35hp Cat diesel.


PP have you demoed a 35hp Cat diesel yet vs the 35HP Vanguard BB?



The 35hp Vanguard is a Poor mans diesel:) lots of Hp/torque for a cheaper price, thats value not a better engine.

The 35Hp Vanguard is 993CC 50ft/lbs @ 2800 rpms 2 cylinders air cooled

The 35Hp Cat diesel is 1,130CC 70ft/lbs @ 1800 rpms 4 cylinder liquid cooled.


The 35hp Vanguard lacks 137CC or 69 quarts to equal the 4 cylinder Cat diesels displacement. Carb vs fuel injection, liquid cooled vs air cooled, Two pistons will work harder than 4 pistons Gas has less BTU's per gallon than diesel. I have to totally disagree.


The air cooled V-Twin Mill must spin's at 2,800 rpm's or an additional 1,000 rpm's to generate the 50ft/lbs vs the Cat diesel generating 70 ft/lbs at 1,800 rpm's the diesel simply does not work as hard.


I will agree the 35hp Vanguard is one hell of an air cooled engine at face value, upon further investigation I would think with as much diesel equipment as you own or operate you would realize you will be going through the Gasoline to keep that Big Block running VS the diesel.

Fuel is MONEY the less I burn, the less my total fuel bill is for the month. The 35hp Vanguard BB is going to burn at least 2.0gal/hr verse the 35hp Cat diesel at .66-75gal/hr. If your cutting a-lot of grass or acre's that a huge savings in fuel cost alone. Enough to justify a diesel engine


As one increases in Hp/torque their is a point where diesel becomes a great option, for my business it is the best option.



I can tell right now were going to lock horns on this one:laugh:[/QUOTE]

I know the 35 Cat is stronger, but when the man that has been with Bad Boy since it was formed, and runs the test on their mowers; tells me both engines will not bog in waste high grass, but will slip the deck belt before either engine drops rpms.

That is about as plain as I believe it can be understood. This was not something I dreamed up, but what someone with the most experience at Bad Boy had to say. He also said the 35 Cat had to be for a more specialized application because the difference in money and repair, or engine rebuild would take its told on your wallet. He said they could sell the 35 Vanguard for $3000.00 less money and if he was buying a mower for commercial use that would be the one. They have a tremendous number in use and everyone loves them.

I know you are hung up on the 35 Cat, but I would bet you could run the 35 Vanguard in the same application and not miss any loss of power. When a engine has enough power to turn the blades and not drop rpms until the belt slips, that is all the mower can handle, whether it is 100 hp or 35 hp.

The only difference that will ever be realized between the 35 Cat diesel and the 35 Vanguard, is the diesel will give better fuel economy and longer engine life. There will need to be many hours put on the 35 Cat before the money difference will ever repay itself. You will need to run 1300 hrs. before the fuel offset will pay the price difference in the machines.

I love the 35 Cat but it does not fit all commercial mowing applications. My personal mowing, you could not give me a liquid cooled mower, unless I could sell it and keep the money.

The Exmark rep told me their sells were falling on the L/C Kawasaki's and they were selling more of the 35 big block Vanguards in his territory. His customers are telling him they are not seeing enough difference in engine life to offset the more money paid for L/C, and once they feel the tremendous power of the big block, they are sold.

SfTD_service_CENTER
06-10-2009, 10:14 PM
it always makes me wonder why they dont offer all the vtwins with the option of liquid cooling? i mean they are big ! and you would think that maybe putting lc on them would be a nice option for some.

im going to have to say that i think a belt will slip before you see a difference in power. all i know is that these diesels need turbos to be as powerful per cc as a gas motor. you can look at any truck engine they all are turbo charged and boost alot of pressure to get all that ftlbs of torque without the turbo they wouldnt be very powerful. ford in the early 90's had nonturbo 7.3 in chassi cab trucks they were serious dogs. i shouldnt bring that up cause i know nospark will say that was then this is now,but they still need turbos to be what they are. they run turbos because the motors themselves are built to handle the pressure. gasoline engines arent built to the heavy spec of the diesel and the headbolts usually stretch when over boosted. a diesel doesnt even need a blow off valve for the extra boost it will just eat it up! really crazy how they can do that. pull a turbo off a duramax see how fast it moves out, lol it dont move out it lugs and chugs makes all sorts of noise and dont get out of its own way. when that 35 cat has a nice size turbo on it then it will be way more powerful till then you arent going to obsolete my mower or any other with 30+hp. only thing i am jealous of is the fuel economy! it is quite amazing.

somone should make a turbo kit for the badboy mowers they would probly sell a ton of them just so every guy that owned one could say he has the most powerful mower in the world! i would buy one if i owned a badboy!

nosparkplugs
06-10-2009, 10:31 PM
PP, you really need to get names when you quote things like this:confused: I have spoken with many of the Factory people at Bad Boy, During the first 100hours of use on Our AOS diesel. If you look at the torque ratings or torque rise vs RPM on these two engines it's not even fair.


With a 35Hp Big Block any money you save on the air cooled engine option you will burn up in fuel cost period. The fuel savings of the 4 cylinder Cat diesel is just mind boggling, It burns less fuel than our Walker MT20 with a 20hp 639cc air cooled Kohler V-twin.

Only good thing about the 35hp Big block is it gets you close to the 4 cylinder Cat diesel, nothing is equal yet:nono:

After 110hours of use, the Cat diesel power spoils you, aka you get use to it, so them my favorite feature is the fuel savings. That makes diesel hands down my ZTR powerplant of choice now:cool2:

Now, you have known me long enough to know, If I say it, I can back it up.
That is not to say I won't make a mistake in transferring information, I am human like everyone else, but not many times will you catch me providing incorrect information.

Kevin Newingham has been with Bad Boy since it was formed, he has run the 35 Vanguard and the 35 Cat diesel in grass knee high to waste high, in attempt to see what would give up. He said you could not tell any difference in power between the 35 Vanguard and the 35 Cat. even knowing the Cat had to be more powerful according to specs.

They put these mowers in all conditions (in testing), to see what would surrender first, and the exact component they wanted to yield was the belt, and this is precisely what took place.

He said you could not tell the difference in power between the 35 Vanguard and the 35 Cat, because neither of the two engines will falter until the belt slips.

I would say that pretty well clarifies exactly what I have claimed the entire time. Kevin also made the statement that the mule drive on the AOS models with horizontal shaft engines pulled about 3 hp away from the deck where the vertical shaft engines on the Lightning delivered a higher percentage of hp to the deck. He said the 35 Vanguard on the AOS with the mule drive was actually dropping back into the 32 hp Vanguard range which was used on the Lightning.

I was explaining to him that I would not have a 28 hp Cat on a 72" AOS, and this engine was proven to me as being very weak. He said the 28 Cat would handle the deck in normal cutting but with the mule drive you were only getting 25 hp to the deck, and heavy cutting would pull it down.

It make no difference what size engine you have, if nothing affects its power until the belt slips, one engine is just as strong as the other.[/QUOTE]

PP,

I am now running the Dixie Chopper X-blades on the 35hp Cat diesel, let me tell you the X-blades really utilize all the Cat diesel's power, and well before I switched to the DC X-blades/doubles. I called the Bad Boy Factory spoke with Brad about running the Meg-Mo or X-blades or Doubles, and why Bad Boy does not offer the Meg-Mo or X-blades or doubles anymore, his response is the 35hp diesel will run doubles, it was the Gasburner's that were struggling that includes the 35hp Vanguard BB, no more Meg-Mo or X-blades or doubles from the factory. What do you or would you conclude?? if the V-Twin 2 cylinder Air cooled Big Block cannot run doubles it is therefore weaker than the 4 cylinder 35hp Cat diesel.


PP have you demoed a 35hp Cat diesel yet vs the 35HP Vanguard BB?



The 35hp Vanguard is a Poor mans diesel:) lots of Hp/torque for a cheaper price, thats value not a better engine.

The 35Hp Vanguard is 993CC 50ft/lbs @ 2800 rpms 2 cylinders air cooled

The 35Hp Cat diesel is 1,130CC 70ft/lbs @ 1800 rpms 4 cylinder liquid cooled.


The 35hp Vanguard lacks 137CC or 69 quarts to equal the 4 cylinder Cat diesels displacement. Carb vs fuel injection, liquid cooled vs air cooled, Two pistons will work harder than 4 pistons Gas has less BTU's per gallon than diesel. I have to totally disagree.


The air cooled V-Twin Mill must spin's at 2,800 rpm's or an additional 1,000 rpm's to generate the 50ft/lbs vs the Cat diesel generating 70 ft/lbs at 1,800 rpm's the diesel simply does not work as hard.


I will agree the 35hp Vanguard is one hell of an air cooled engine at face value, upon further investigation I would think with as much diesel equipment as you own or operate you would realize you will be going through the Gasoline to keep that Big Block running VS the diesel.

Fuel is MONEY the less I burn, the less my total fuel bill is for the month. The 35hp Vanguard BB is going to burn at least 2.0gal/hr verse the 35hp Cat diesel at .66-75gal/hr. If your cutting a-lot of grass or acre's that a huge savings in fuel cost alone. Enough to justify a diesel engine


As one increases in Hp/torque their is a point where diesel becomes a great option, for my business it is the best option.



I can tell right now were going to lock horns on this one:laugh:

I know the 35 Cat is stronger, but when the man that has been with Bad Boy since it was formed, and runs the test on their mowers; tells me both engines will not bog in waste high grass, but will slip the deck belt before either engine drops rpms.

That is about as plain as I believe it can be understood. This was not something I dreamed up, but what someone with the most experience at Bad Boy had to say. He also said the 35 Cat had to be for a more specialized application because the difference in money and repair, or engine rebuild would take its told on your wallet. He said they could sell the 35 Vanguard for $3000.00 less money and if he was buying a mower for commercial use that would be the one. They have a tremendous number in use and everyone loves them.

I know you are hung up on the 35 Cat, but I would bet you could run the 35 Vanguard in the same application and not miss any loss of power. When a engine has enough power to turn the blades and not drop rpms until the belt slips, that is all the mower can handle, whether it is 100 hp or 35 hp.

The only difference that will ever be realized between the 35 Cat diesel and the 35 Vanguard, is the diesel will give better fuel economy and longer engine life. There will need to be many hours put on the 35 Cat before the money difference will ever repay itself. You will need to run 1300 hrs. before the fuel offset will pay the price difference in the machines.

I love the 35 Cat but it does not fit all commercial mowing applications. My personal mowing, you could not give me a liquid cooled mower, unless I could sell it and keep the money.

The Exmark rep told me their sells were falling on the L/C Kawasaki's and they were selling more of the 35 big block Vanguards in his territory. His customers are telling him they are not seeing enough difference in engine life to offset the more money paid for L/C, and once they feel the tremendous power of the big block, they are sold.[/QUOTE]

PP,

Either at the factory or my AOS diesel mule belt tension setting was very loose, and that first 30 minutes of use I was able to "slip the belt" easily, once I tightened the mule belt well beyond the factory setting's:) their is absolutley zero slipping in any grass situation I can pull the Cat diesel's RPM down grunting or lugging, then the governer kicks in to save you, and the Cat blows a big arse cloud of diesel smoke, and takes off again:dancing:, now according to you a 35hp Vanguard Big Block will not "miss" a beat against the diesel in that same situation:laugh:. Hell I should have kept running gasburners, Dang I knew I should have not been drinking that "diesel" kool-aide:drinkup: so much.

Also I guess you cannot realize I have found that my Walker MT with a 20hp Kohler V-Twin burns more fuel than the AOS diesel, yet the Vanguard almost double the CC's is going be equal to the diesel up into the thousands of hours before any fuel savings are felt with a diesel. When your mowing 8 hours day day you rep the diesel fuel savings instantly.


To say it takes over a 1,000 hour of use to absorb the cost of a diesel ZTR is totally riduculous. You are throwing all of us in one pot, and saying this is how it is period.

Dealers will tell you anything you want to hear, and in the end will sell you what ever ZTR you want.

puppypaws
06-10-2009, 10:32 PM
it always makes me wonder why they dont offer all the vtwins with the option of liquid cooling? i mean they are big ! and you would think that maybe putting lc on them would be a nice option for some.

im going to have to say that i think a belt will slip before you see a difference in power. all i know is that these diesels need turbos to be as powerful per cc as a gas motor. you can look at any truck engine they all are turbo charged and boost alot of pressure to get all that ftlbs of torque without the turbo they wouldnt be very powerful. ford in the early 90's had nonturbo 7.3 in chassi cab trucks they were serious dogs. i shouldnt bring that up cause i know nospark will say that was then this is now,but they still need turbos to be what they are. they run turbos because the motors themselves are built to handle the pressure. gasoline engines arent built to the heavy spec of the diesel and the headbolts usually stretch when over boosted. a diesel doesnt even need a blow off valve for the extra boost it will just eat it up! really crazy how they can do that. pull a turbo off a duramax see how fast it moves out, lol it dont move out it lugs and chugs makes all sorts of noise and dont get out of its own way. when that 35 cat has a nice size turbo on it then it will be way more powerful till then you arent going to obsolete my mower or any other with 30+hp. only thing i am jealous of is the fuel economy! it is quite amazing.

somone should make a turbo kit for the badboy mowers they would probly sell a ton of them just so every guy that owned one could say he has the most powerful mower in the world! i would buy one if i owned a badboy!

It doesn't make any difference how much power you have, if the belt can't deliver the power through the blades, it is useless past a certain point.

puppypaws
06-10-2009, 10:39 PM
To say it takes over a 1,000 hour of use to absorb the cost of a diesel ZTR is totally riduculous. You are throwing all of us in one pot, and saying this is how it is period.



How much do you pay for diesel fuel and gas in your area?

nosparkplugs
06-10-2009, 10:41 PM
Where I buy 87 octane Gas is $2.47 Diesel is $2.35, In some high priced area's in Memphis 87 octane gas is up to $2.58 diesel is $2.49



How much do you pay for diesel fuel and gas in your area?

johnnybravo8802
06-10-2009, 10:48 PM
Alright, you guys break it up!!!:laugh::laugh:My argument is that I still don't think a machine has been built to last as long as a diesel engine. The Hustler 3200 I had was probably as close as it gets but it cost me $20,000 and it was an industrial machine. I think the diesel is a waste in the commercial market and you will never get your money back. Torque and HP isn't much good when your mower is falling apart, unless you can put a seat on a 35 CAT somehow.:rolleyes:

nosparkplugs
06-10-2009, 11:00 PM
It's about MONEY, once you add the liquid cooling to a V-twin you loose it's value for the target market. AKA CHEAP ARSE'S LOVE THE AIR COOLED V-TWINS for their value that includes me too in certain applications:)

You can throw a total Idiot on any air cooled ZTR their not going to burn up the motor 99% of the time. It takes some knowledge to run liquid cooled engines on ZTR's thats for sure. I did not allow my guys to just take off on the diesel the first time like I did with my my air cooled ZTR's

Turbo's do well on tractors or skid steers with intercoolers, but their not doing so well on ZTR's Scag discontinued the BS Turbo diesel, also those little turbo's cost some change some $600 to 1,000 above the normally aspirated diesel engine cost. Turbo's generate higher EGT's in the ZTR's the turbo diesel in ZTR's are not intercooled, so their just about useless for the cost vs Hp/torque gains in this application my 2 cents.

Belt Slipping, I thought going from shaft drive decks the mule belt system would slip or loose HP it does not slip AT ALL! ZERO, ZILCH. Like I said to PP at the Factory BB sets the belt tensioner loose so their is some play/slipping, but I never leave all factory setting on my ZTR's


Started out with the cheaper V-Twin air cooled gas engines. they made me lots of money, and got me where I am now, able to afford diesel:drinkup:. I was sick in tired of replacing air cooled engines on a perfectly good ZTR's:waving:




it always makes me wonder why they dont offer all the vtwins with the option of liquid cooling? i mean they are big ! and you would think that maybe putting lc on them would be a nice option for some.

im going to have to say that i think a belt will slip before you see a difference in power. all i know is that these diesels need turbos to be as powerful per cc as a gas motor. you can look at any truck engine they all are turbo charged and boost alot of pressure to get all that ftlbs of torque without the turbo they wouldnt be very powerful. ford in the early 90's had nonturbo 7.3 in chassi cab trucks they were serious dogs. i shouldnt bring that up cause i know nospark will say that was then this is now,but they still need turbos to be what they are. they run turbos because the motors themselves are built to handle the pressure. gasoline engines arent built to the heavy spec of the diesel and the headbolts usually stretch when over boosted. a diesel doesnt even need a blow off valve for the extra boost it will just eat it up! really crazy how they can do that. pull a turbo off a duramax see how fast it moves out, lol it dont move out it lugs and chugs makes all sorts of noise and dont get out of its own way. when that 35 cat has a nice size turbo on it then it will be way more powerful till then you arent going to obsolete my mower or any other with 30+hp. only thing i am jealous of is the fuel economy! it is quite amazing.

somone should make a turbo kit for the badboy mowers they would probly sell a ton of them just so every guy that owned one could say he has the most powerful mower in the world! i would buy one if i owned a badboy!

puppypaws
06-10-2009, 11:01 PM
Where I buy 87 octane Gas is $2.47 Diesel is $2.35, In some high priced area's in Memphis 87 octane gas is up to $2.58 diesel is $2.49

I only made a guess, not knowing your prices.

Take your mower burning .6 gph and the 35 Vanguard burning 1.6 gph

The Vanguard is burning, at you price $3.95 worth of fuel per hour.
The 35 Cat diesel is burning, at your price $1.48 worth of fuel per hour.

$3.95 per hr - $1.48 per hr = $2.47 you saved in fuel per hr.

$3000.00 difference in the price between the Vanguard and Cat divided by the amount of fuel you save per hr. = 1215 hrs. to get your return on investment with fuel savings alone.

Do you agree with these numbers?

SfTD_service_CENTER
06-10-2009, 11:27 PM
i agree with the intercooler they should use one but i think anything that has a constant drag on it like a mower blade does should be turboed, turbos only work when a load is applied and it seems that their is always a load on it. you would think for the money that you pay for a very simple engine design they would give you intercooled twin turboes lol! really when you think about it for the price there should be more to go with it. but i guess when somone like you is saying that it is the best thats the reason why they are more money cause people are happy with them! i really hope that exmark gets to make a diesel for my mower that is light and powerful lol that probly wont happen but i would like to see some light weight aircooled kohler diesels or somthing close to that so people get the happy medium. i want a light great on fuel mower that wont tear things up when i am flying arround tight areas and stuff and wont rut cause they made some new extra wide tires! that isnt too much to ask! as far as i know my exmark is all of those except for the good on fuel part.

newholland they will be next with a great mower and they have good motors i am sure we will see them start to go big with the ztr line, they need to kubota and deere did and nh is a older company they seem to be very large i dont know if they are bigger than deere but it wouldnt suprise me, they sell alot in europe etc.

zman2307
06-10-2009, 11:30 PM
newholland they will be next with a great mower and they have good motors i am sure we will see them start to go big with the ztr line, they need to kubota and deere did and nh is a older company they seem to be very large i dont know if they are bigger than deere but it wouldnt suprise me, they sell alot in europe etc.

They'll need to invent their own mowers first. Everride and Toro make them right now.

puppypaws
06-10-2009, 11:30 PM
I only made a guess, not knowing your prices.

Take your mower burning .6 gph and the 35 Vanguard burning 1.6 gph

The Vanguard is burning, at you price $3.95 worth of fuel per hour.
The 35 Cat diesel is burning, at your price $1.48 worth of fuel per hour.

$3.95 per hr - $1.48 per hr = $2.47 you saved in fuel per hr.

$3000.00 difference in the price between the Vanguard and Cat divided by the amount of fuel you save per hr. = 1215 hrs. to get your return on investment with fuel savings alone.

Do you agree with these numbers?

Come on "nosparkplugs", are these numbers correct or not? Maybe there is someone else out there to check these calculations.

nosparkplugs
06-11-2009, 12:28 AM
I was away from computer for a little bit, sorry PP. Not sure what the 35hp BB Vanguard burns per hour I think 1.6gal hour is on the low side, someone needs to let us know for sure. I surly would not, and did not balk over 3K for a better engine. Each to their own. Remeber the Bad Boy AOS diesel is about 5K cheaper than other diesels:)

I know talking with Retrodog the 35HP Vanguard is a total gashog, and while I never wanted the Big air cooled engine he just lauge's when we talk about the fuel it burns.
Come on "nosparkplugs", are these numbers correct or not? Maybe there is someone else out there to check these calculations.

puppypaws
06-11-2009, 12:48 AM
I was away from computer for a little bit, sorry PP. Not sure what the 35hp BB Vanguard burns per hour I think 1.6gal hour is on the low side, someone needs to let us know for sure. I surly would not, and did not balk over 3K for a better engine. Each to their own. Remeber the Bad Boy AOS diesel is about 5K cheaper than other diesels:)

I know talking with Retrodog the 35HP Vanguard is a total gashog, and while I never wanted the Big air cooled engine he just lauge's when we talk about the fuel it burns.

You never did say if the fuel dollar amount was correct. I think you will agree it is, there is a large number of hrs. to put on the diesel before it will pay its way out of $3000.00 difference in price.

Tacoma has been keeping accurate fuel amount usage on his Vanguards for a while now, and this is what he says.

I was asked to post when I got the results of the fuel usage of the new 35 hp Briggs. I used 6 gallons of fuel at 4.3 hours which works to 1.39 gallons per hour. This was not lugging the engine though the grass I was cutting would lug the average engine pretty hard. So far it has sliced through very thick moist grass very easily. So far so good.

35 Briggs turf tiger

By the way "retrodog" knows nothing about Vanguard engines. He is going to get his first to try because BB is telling him how great the engine is. He told me he never had one before, it had been mainly 26 L/C Kawasaki's.

sfddelta1
06-11-2009, 12:57 AM
[QUOTE=puppypaws;3034316]There is no such thing as not maintaining fire equipment in this part of the country, that can be the difference in someone living or dieing. The equipment and fire personnel (including volunteers), are subject to military intense inspections at all times, and there better not be any piece of equipment not in perfect working order.



The department i spent 14 years on was like that untill the last year i was there. Everything had its place and everything worked. Now the admin is letting it go to hell in a handbasket. I fought for as long as I could to keep things right and I just could not do it anymore it was not worth the fight.

E

retrodog
06-11-2009, 01:24 AM
You never did say if the fuel dollar amount was correct. I think you will agree it is, there is a large number of hrs. to put on the diesel before it will pay its way out of $3000.00 difference in price.

Tacoma has been keeping accurate fuel amount usage on his Vanguards for a while now, and this is what he says.



By the way "retrodog" knows nothing about Vanguard engines. He is going to get his first to try because BB is telling him how great the engine is. He told me he never had one before, it had been mainly 26 L/C Kawasaki's.

All I have heard is they eat gas from most I have heard from. I do have a 31hp Kawasaki I have put a hair over 200 hours on. I personally think its too much power, and I am going back to the 26hp LC on a 60" when I get rid of this thing. I am averaging between 2.2 and 2.5 an hour on mine, but It mows full speed, full throttle, and full grass heights all the time.... No breaks for this hoss. It is the mower that gets dropped off in the middle of LCO's pastures for them to test it to the limit.....lol. Mowing 12 hours a day solid, I make almost an extra $100 to $150 a day more profit margin mowing on a cat diesel versus my 31hp lightning. That is figuring in around $20 in fuel, and the rest is just the sheer volume of grass I can cut on the big cat. $3000 difference would creep up pretty fast at $150 a day difference in operation. Granted, it wouldn't make sense for us to run 3 cat diesel's, but it does have a place on my rig. We are able to take on huge properties now at the low bid prices they are going for, and still profit quite a bit, only because of the Cat. I do admit, I go through a little more blades on the cat versus my lightnings, but it eats things for lunch. I feel sorry for a little ghetto kid, our cat ate his bicycle the other day, shouldn't have had it laying down in tall grass, hard to notice something like that blowing through at 15mph with a 72" deck......lol. The whole frame twisted under the deck, should have broke the ole camera out and shot yall a few pics......

nosparkplugs
06-11-2009, 01:27 AM
If your expecting me to give my total blessing on the 35HP Big block I cannot agree, diesels require more intial investment vs the BDS Big Block if one decided to sell their diesel ZTR you should expect a higher resale value.

If you don't have the additional 3K to spend the Big block is the best option, I make enough money to absorb the additonal cost of the diesel so I cannot agree it will take me longer to pay the AOS diesel ZTR off:), and I cannot speak for others either, for me diesel is the best option when their is a diesel ZTR option.

Retrodog does well selling the Big Diesels; which is one of Bad Boys top sellers too. Most Folks end up with the diesel after looking at the 35hp Vanguard Big block. Again what is 3K when your already spending over 10K, and other diesel ZTR's are pushing 16-20K. If you also go to Bad Boys website & read the Customer section Bad Boy commercial owners purchase the Big AOS Diesel as their second machine after running a Bad Boy gasser

Yes for under 13K the air cooled 35HP BDS Big Block is the best option for most.

PP, this is what I do for a living, I surly would have not went with diesel to loose my ARSE, to the contrary I was running air cooled gassers, and blowing them up at about 700-100hours, that was getting old my friend

You never did say if the fuel dollar amount was correct. I think you will agree it is, there is a large number of hrs. to put on the diesel before it will pay its way out of $3000.00 difference in price.

Tacoma has been keeping accurate fuel amount usage on his Vanguards for a while now, and this is what he says.



By the way "retrodog" knows nothing about Vanguard engines. He is going to get his first to try because BB is telling him how great the engine is. He told me he never had one before, it had been mainly 26 L/C Kawasaki's.

puppypaws
06-11-2009, 01:59 AM
All I have heard is they eat gas from most I have heard from. I do have a 31hp Kawasaki I have put a hair over 200 hours on. I personally think its too much power, and I am going back to the 26hp LC on a 60" when I get rid of this thing. I am averaging between 2.2 and 2.5 an hour on mine, but It mows full speed, full throttle, and full grass heights all the time.... No breaks for this hoss. It is the mower that gets dropped off in the middle of LCO's pastures for them to test it to the limit.....lol. Mowing 12 hours a day solid, I make almost an extra $100 to $150 a day more profit margin mowing on a cat diesel versus my 31hp lightning. That is figuring in around $20 in fuel, and the rest is just the sheer volume of grass I can cut on the big cat. $3000 difference would creep up pretty fast at $150 a day difference in operation.

I know the Kawasaki's are gas hogs but I have not heard of the 34 or 37 using that much fuel. I know a dealer in Kentucky that has people keeping records of fuel economy on the 31 Kawi Bad Boy and he said 1.8 was about the average but on the Super Z it was higher at closer to 2 gph.

2.5 is an unbelievable amount of gas to go through a 31 hp engine. I honestly don't understand how it could burn that much under 100% load at 100% of the time. I have seen "tacoma" post several times on the 31 Vanguard and now his new 35 Vanguard, and never seen them above 1.5 gph.

I wish you would get a 32 Vanguard on a 60" Lightning, I will promise the power will blow your mind, and I don't believe you would see anywhere close to the high fuel figures on the Kawasaki.

There is another thing you mentioned about the sheer volume of grass you cut with the big Cat. The 35 Vanguard will cut side by side with the 35 Cat day in and day out. Call Kevin Newingham and ask him for yourself, he will tell you exactly what they found through their testing.

I believe you already told me BB wanted you to try a big block Vanguard because they were so sold themselves on the engines, is that not what you said?

brucec
06-11-2009, 04:41 AM
Hey you guys highjacked my thread! This was my time to shine, damn it!!! JK! I just picked it up today and will post some pics when I get a chance. Is there a way to adjust the sticks so they are not so far foward when mowing? I don't mean length I mean how far they travel to reach max speed?

davey03
06-11-2009, 08:05 AM
I'm running a 35 Vangard on an AOS Bad Boy 72" and it will pull down in moderate grass when I'm going up hill. It's not really a problem but it is noticeable. I demoed a 28 Cat with a 60" and it had infinate power. The only problem I had was the engine configuation hangs out over the ass end and I got hung up on a bank twice where the horizonal Vangard is maybe a foot shorter. Also I checked the fuel on my Vangard and my first tank was running about 1.5 per hr. Don't know if it's better or worse now. I would run a diesel if it wasn't for what I mentioned earlier.

Razorblades
06-11-2009, 08:47 AM
Hey you guys highjacked my thread! This was my time to shine, damn it!!! JK! I just picked it up today and will post some pics when I get a chance. Is there a way to adjust the sticks so they are not so far foward when mowing? I don't mean length I mean how far they travel to reach max speed?

I'm sure Retrodog or someone will speak up but when I used my neighbors Bad Boy AOS with 35 Vanguard and 72" deck, I noticed that once you engaged/moved the lever fwd to go, you arms weren't able to stay on the armrests. In fact, in my case my arms weren't even close to the armrests.I didn't see any adjustment on those armrests or steering levers, which I thought was odd. By the way, about the thread hijacking, we're all just killing time until you can post some pics and give us an update on the Lightning.

johnnybravo8802
06-11-2009, 08:56 AM
All I have heard is they eat gas from most I have heard from. I do have a 31hp Kawasaki I have put a hair over 200 hours on. I personally think its too much power, and I am going back to the 26hp LC on a 60" when I get rid of this thing. I am averaging between 2.2 and 2.5 an hour on mine, but It mows full speed, full throttle, and full grass heights all the time.... No breaks for this hoss. It is the mower that gets dropped off in the middle of LCO's pastures for them to test it to the limit.....lol. Mowing 12 hours a day solid, I make almost an extra $100 to $150 a day more profit margin mowing on a cat diesel versus my 31hp lightning. That is figuring in around $20 in fuel, and the rest is just the sheer volume of grass I can cut on the big cat. $3000 difference would creep up pretty fast at $150 a day difference in operation. Granted, it wouldn't make sense for us to run 3 cat diesel's, but it does have a place on my rig. We are able to take on huge properties now at the low bid prices they are going for, and still profit quite a bit, only because of the Cat. I do admit, I go through a little more blades on the cat versus my lightnings, but it eats things for lunch. I feel sorry for a little ghetto kid, our cat ate his bicycle the other day, shouldn't have had it laying down in tall grass, hard to notice something like that blowing through at 15mph with a 72" deck......lol. The whole frame twisted under the deck, should have broke the ole camera out and shot yall a few pics......
I know the diesel makes a difference but I have a hard time believing it makes $150/day difference. If that were true, everybody would have one. If that's true, go ahead and sign me up.

Razorblades
06-11-2009, 08:56 AM
I'm running a 35 Vangard on an AOS Bad Boy 72" and it will pull down in moderate grass when I'm going up hill. It's not really a problem but it is noticeable. I demoed a 28 Cat with a 60" and it had infinate power. The only problem I had was the engine configuation hangs out over the ass end and I got hung up on a bank twice where the horizonal Vangard is maybe a foot shorter. Also I checked the fuel on my Vangard and my first tank was running about 1.5 per hr. Don't know if it's better or worse now. I would run a diesel if it wasn't for what I mentioned earlier.

My neighbor said that they were getting about 1.65 to 1.9 gph depending on mowing conditions on their Bad Boy AOS with 35 Vanguard and 72" deck. I get about 1.6 to 1.8 with my Lastec with 32 HP Generac, depending on mowing conditions and whethwer I'm using std lift blades, high lift, or super high lift blades. I'm having trouble trying to understan why the Kawasaki 31, 34 and 37 HP engines are being reported to use in the 2.2-2.5 GPH. I don't belive it's because the Kawasakis are making more torque than the vanguards and Generac's, if you can trust the spec's of each brand of engine.

puppypaws
06-11-2009, 09:29 AM
I'm running a 35 Vangard on an AOS Bad Boy 72" and it will pull down in moderate grass when I'm going up hill. It's not really a problem but it is noticeable. I demoed a 28 Cat with a 60" and it had infinate power. The only problem I had was the engine configuation hangs out over the ass end and I got hung up on a bank twice where the horizonal Vangard is maybe a foot shorter. Also I checked the fuel on my Vangard and my first tank was running about 1.5 per hr. Don't know if it's better or worse now. I would run a diesel if it wasn't for what I mentioned earlier.

Thank you, finally someone to step up with knowledge of operation. I knew if we would talk about this long enough someone would come in with their experience.

Now, when you are talking about pulling down going up hill, are we talking about a small to moderate grade or a 15° slope, and how many rpms would you say it drops? This is where I believe the 35 Cat with its strong torque would not have a noticeable drop if any in rpms. I bring in lines of controversy to make people talk, once you get enough people commenting, you can filter the accuracy.

Now, on the other side of this equation, I personally have operated the 28 Cat on the 72" Bad Boy and it was not nearly enough engine. I mean it was pitiful in heavy cutting and there was a 33 hp Generac powered Predator Pro running in the same grass that never changed sounds. I ran both mowers, with the 33 powering a 61" deck (which makes a difference), but I was totally disappointed in the 28 Cat on the 72" deck, just not enough engine.

I questioned BB about this and they told me they felt the 28 was sufficient in normal to light cutting but not in moderate to heavy cutting. They said there was only 25 hp going to the deck through the mule drive and the 72 would work it hard. I can see it being a different machine with the 28 on a 60" deck.

Comment more when you get time of the 35's power and what you feel are the pros and cons of the 35 on your AOS. This is the only way people are able to learn is from genuine experience of an honest end user, not dealers or factory personnel. This is only true if you have a non biased person providing the information accurately.

retrodog
06-11-2009, 10:06 AM
Hey you guys highjacked my thread! This was my time to shine, damn it!!! JK! I just picked it up today and will post some pics when I get a chance. Is there a way to adjust the sticks so they are not so far foward when mowing? I don't mean length I mean how far they travel to reach max speed?

Hey Bru, you must be a little short..lol. Easiest fix, you can scoot your seat forward and solve running full speed. Your issue, the lip on the aos catches your seat from going full forward. Alot of guys (usually for their wives....) put thick washers on the bolts the seat is mounted on, just enough to scoot over the lip and into full forward. That will make it waaay more comfortable for you. If you feel uncomfortable doing this, run it by your dealer, and he will fix you up. You can adjust the handles, but it is very frustrating and time consuming to get each side lined up with each other, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone but your dealer, or someone that knows what they are doing.

brucec
06-11-2009, 02:19 PM
I'm 6'4" I have no trouble pushing the sticks all the way foward its just when I do my elbows are off of the arm rests. I looked at at the bottom of the sticks where the rod attatches to the pump and there are extra holes if you move the rod up or down to a different hole that should change the throw of the sticks shouldn't it? Has anyone tried this?

retrodog
06-11-2009, 04:35 PM
I'm 6'4" I have no trouble pushing the sticks all the way foward its just when I do my elbows are off of the arm rests. I looked at at the bottom of the sticks where the rod attatches to the pump and there are extra holes if you move the rod up or down to a different hole that should change the throw of the sticks shouldn't it? Has anyone tried this?

Yeah, you can try that. The only time I use the arm rests is when I am driving with one hand, or just stopped to talk. I would just assume not have any.....

johnnybravo8802
06-11-2009, 06:03 PM
Thank you, finally someone to step up with knowledge of operation. I knew if we would talk about this long enough someone would come in with their experience.

Now, when you are talking about pulling down going up hill, are we talking about a small to moderate grade or a 15° slope, and how many rpms would you say it drops? This is where I believe the 35 Cat with its strong torque would not have a noticeable drop if any in rpms. I bring in lines of controversy to make people talk, once you get enough people commenting, you can filter the accuracy.

Now, on the other side of this equation, I personally have operated the 28 Cat on the 72" Bad Boy and it was not nearly enough engine. I mean it was pitiful in heavy cutting and there was a 33 hp Generac powered Predator Pro running in the same grass that never changed sounds. I ran both mowers, with the 33 powering a 61" deck (which makes a difference), but I was totally disappointed in the 28 Cat on the 72" deck, just not enough engine.

I questioned BB about this and they told me they felt the 28 was sufficient in normal to light cutting but not in moderate to heavy cutting. They said there was only 25 hp going to the deck through the mule drive and the 72 would work it hard. I can see it being a different machine with the 28 on a 60" deck.

Comment more when you get time of the 35's power and what you feel are the pros and cons of the 35 on your AOS. This is the only way people are able to learn is from genuine experience of an honest end user, not dealers or factory personnel. This is only true if you have a non biased person providing the information accurately.
I still don't understand a 28 HP diesel not being enough on a 72" deck. My 27 Kawi on my 72" Exmark was plenty-I had 1000 hours on it w/o a gliche. A 28 diesel should walk all over it with the torque difference.

puppypaws
06-11-2009, 07:15 PM
I still don't understand a 28 HP diesel not being enough on a 72" deck. My 27 Kawi on my 72" Exmark was plenty-I had 1000 hours on it w/o a gliche. A 28 diesel should walk all over it with the torque difference.

I can only tell you what was experienced, "TomberLawn" was there with his 33 Generac and experienced the same thing.

nosparkplugs
06-11-2009, 08:18 PM
Regardless of the reason's of the 28hp Cat/Perkins diesel not doing well with a 72" or 60" deck the Cat/Perkins diesel's are still some top of the line engine's I would take a Perk-A-Piller over a gasburner all day long, every day. Add some X-blades to the 35hp Cat diesel it's yet another improvement beyond what I expected.

I am looking at Purchasing a ZD221 with a 48" deck, and I would like to see if Bad Boy would build me a AOS 28hp diesel with a 48" deck. The 28hp Cat diesel would be perfect on a 54" or 48" deck. I would like another Bad Boy diesel just with a much smaller deck the Bad Boys diesels are the lightest on the market, tough as nails too. the 3/4" deck is in it's own class too.

I am confident Bad Boy will take custom orders, if not then it will be a ZD221, Retro & I have talked about me ordering a AOS diesel with a 48" or 54" deck, time to pull the trigger on another diesel ZTR.

puppypaws
06-11-2009, 09:57 PM
Regardless of the reason's of the 28hp Cat/Perkins diesel not doing well with a 72" or 60" deck the Cat/Perkins diesel's are still some top of the line engine's I would take a Perk-A-Piller over a gasburner all day long, every day. Add some X-blades to the 35hp Cat diesel it's yet another improvement beyond what I expected.

I am looking at Purchasing a ZD221 with a 48" deck, and I would like to see if Bad Boy would build me a AOS 28hp diesel with a 48" deck. The 28hp Cat diesel would be perfect on a 54" or 48" deck. I would like another Bad Boy diesel just with a much smaller deck the Bad Boys diesels are the lightest on the market, tough as nails too. the 3/4" deck is in it's own class too.

I am confident Bad Boy will take custom orders, if not then it will be a ZD221, Retro & I have talked about me ordering a AOS diesel with a 48" or 54" deck, time to pull the trigger on another diesel ZTR.

The 28 Cat would be a horse on a 48" deck, unstoppable, I doubt they will custom build you one, but I am looking forward to hearing what they tell you, there is always a possibility.

Correct the 3/4" deck thickness error or you will have people thinking you are driving around in an armoured mower. Bad Boy decks are 1/4" thick, the heaviest built on the market. Can you imagine how much a 72" wide X 3/4" thick deck would weigh, probably pushing a thousand pounds or more.

Tell us about the difference you see with the X-blades in normal versus heavy cutting?

I saw some of God's handy-work this afternoon and thought it would make a beautiful picture. The colors are not doing it justice through the pictures.

kb9nvh
06-11-2009, 10:09 PM
Beautiful rainbow...and that field of "cutgrass" in your shot might give that AOS diesel a run for its money (xblades or not..LOL)

or was that a cornfield *grin*

johnnybravo8802
06-11-2009, 10:10 PM
Regardless of the reason's of the 28hp Cat/Perkins diesel not doing well with a 72" or 60" deck the Cat/Perkins diesel's are still some top of the line engine's I would take a Perk-A-Piller over a gasburner all day long, every day. Add some X-blades to the 35hp Cat diesel it's yet another improvement beyond what I expected.

I am looking at Purchasing a ZD221 with a 48" deck, and I would like to see if Bad Boy would build me a AOS 28hp diesel with a 48" deck. The 28hp Cat diesel would be perfect on a 54" or 48" deck. I would like another Bad Boy diesel just with a much smaller deck the Bad Boys diesels are the lightest on the market, tough as nails too. the 3/4" deck is in it's own class too.

I am confident Bad Boy will take custom orders, if not then it will be a ZD221, Retro & I have talked about me ordering a AOS diesel with a 48" or 54" deck, time to pull the trigger on another diesel ZTR.
I think you meant 1/4" deck and is that the entire deck that's 1/4" or just the top plate? The only machine I've ever known with the entire deck 1/4" was the Kut Kwik and it was a tank. However, having a 1/4" deck and being the lightest diesel mower on the market doesn't really go in the same sentence, does it? I really can't see the purpose of a diesel with a 48" deck. When I think of diesel, I think of very large properties and a 72" deck-that's the only thing that makes sense to me. As far as diesels, I'd like to see a TT with a 28 HP Kubota. The Hustler 3400 had that engine and it wasn't lacking in power and was bullet proof. The Hustler 4600 has the 38 HP Kubota and the Kut Kwik slope master and Hustler hillsider 6400 has it too and they don't seem to lack power. I think too many people get caught up with the yellow paint.

dwost
06-11-2009, 10:27 PM
JohnnyB, the entire deck is 1/4"..........welcome to Bad Boy :)

puppypaws
06-11-2009, 10:43 PM
Beautiful rainbow...and that field of "cutgrass" in your shot might give that AOS diesel a run for its money (xblades or not..LOL)

or was that a cornfield *grin*

It is hard to tell without someone standing there to judge, but that corn is well over 7' tall and it was planted 54 days ago today. Poultry litter is the best fertilizer source in the world, it supplies every major and minor element a crop needs to grow, as you can tell from how fast that corn has grown.

It makes absolutely no difference what I do to feed the corn, if God does not send the rain, it will not survive and produce.

12thKY
06-12-2009, 12:45 AM
You should feel blessed to have ahd the weather to get it planted. With all the rain we've had this spring most farmers around here have been playing catch-up. Alot of replanting too. I hope the rain doesn't come to a halt soon, like it has the last two years. We did have a gully washer this evening though.

zman2307
06-12-2009, 12:54 AM
just for the record, the 72" ADS Pro deck on the Bad Boys is 1/4" with additional 1/4" reinforcement rings around the spindle area. It also now has massive double-row ball bearing spindles and probably a 30% larger impact transfer with the wider mounting flange (1/2") and four massive 1/2" thick gussets, all out of cast ductile steel.

zman2307
06-12-2009, 12:56 AM
Bad Boy probably would build a custom mower for you for an extra charge. You would need the front casters relocated though. The suspension forks would stick out. Now if you kept the rear suspension but put Hustler Flex Forks on the front, then it would work.

MS_SURVEYOR
06-12-2009, 03:42 AM
With my talkings with Bab Boy TECHNICAL SUPPORT, it was said they would build custom mowers. I was asking about the ZT's weak choice of engines thou. I stopped when they wanted to transfer me to sales! LOL! I really think it would be a choice of motors, to an extent. But Hey! What Ya got to loose for asking? A transfer to sales? Or just call Wille Nelson! He's got an inside line!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2071/1623387562_ad4cb65688_m.jpg

eatonpcat
06-12-2009, 08:08 AM
Beautiful picture PP... Also great info from you and No plugs

retrodog
06-12-2009, 10:42 AM
With my talkings with Bab Boy TECHNICAL SUPPORT, it was said they would build custom mowers. I was asking about the ZT's weak choice of engines thou. I stopped when they wanted to transfer me to sales! LOL! I really think it would be a choice of motors, to an extent. But Hey! What Ya got to loose for asking? A transfer to sales? Or just call Wille Nelson! He's got an inside line!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2071/1623387562_ad4cb65688_m.jpg

They were offering the 23hp Vanguard on the zt last year, but I noticed its off the lineup now. I just bump everyone up to the pup or lightning if I know they need the dual parkers and better engine.

MS_SURVEYOR
06-12-2009, 11:20 AM
They were offering the 23hp Vanguard on the zt last year, but I noticed its off the lineup now. I just bump everyone up to the pup or lightning if I know they need the dual parkers and better engine.

TECHNICAL SUPPORT said the 23hp Vanguard is available on the ZT by special order. But I agree the Pup was a better move up for me. May be my next one will be a Lightning?

puppypaws
06-12-2009, 01:52 PM
Regardless of the reason's of the 28hp Cat/Perkins diesel not doing well with a 72" or 60" deck the Cat/Perkins diesel's are still some top of the line engine's I would take a Perk-A-Piller over a gasburner all day long, every day. Add some X-blades to the 35hp Cat diesel it's yet another improvement beyond what I expected.

I am looking at Purchasing a ZD221 with a 48" deck, and I would like to see if Bad Boy would build me a AOS 28hp diesel with a 48" deck. The 28hp Cat diesel would be perfect on a 54" or 48" deck. I would like another Bad Boy diesel just with a much smaller deck the Bad Boys diesels are the lightest on the market, tough as nails too. the 3/4" deck is in it's own class too.

I am confident Bad Boy will take custom orders, if not then it will be a ZD221, Retro & I have talked about me ordering a AOS diesel with a 48" or 54" deck, time to pull the trigger on another diesel ZTR.

I called and attempted to get Bad Boy to build you a AOS with the 28 Cat and 48" deck. They said, "Reid we are in the process as we speak of putting a 28 Cat on a Lightning frame, with both a 60" or 52" deck, that will be ready to sell in our next marketing year." I said, "I've got a boy looking for a 48" deck with the 28 Cat, is there any chance one may come on line?" He told me there was a chance a 48" could be added into the line-up, but he was unable to say for sure.

The mower will get close to what you want, but will not be on the AOS frame.

nosparkplugs
06-12-2009, 09:31 PM
:laugh:PP!!! Thanks for having my back, I have already talked with Brad & Retrodog about this about 5 months ago Bad Boy, is WAYYYYY ahead of me & you;)

For such as waste of money per hour before a return on profit:rolleyes: the diesel ZTR's are selling well enough for Bad Boy to extend the diesel into a smaller frame. This is nothing new Kubota & Grasshopper have mastered the diesel ZTR, Bad Boy has taken a proven Diesel engine, and marketed their diesels to SELL very well.

I think you enjoy running the Gasburners after playing with your big diesel Tractors all day:walking:, it's just tough for you to admit the diesels are taking over are larger & larger % of the ZTR market each year. Five years ago diesels were not a good seller.

These fast ZTR's are like a fine RC car for you, yet your getting to mow the grass too:laugh:









I called and attempted to get Bad Boy to build you a AOS with the 28 Cat and 48" deck. They said, "Reid we are in the process as we speak of putting a 28 Cat on a Lightning frame, with both a 60" or 52" deck, that will be ready to sell in our next marketing year." I said, "I've got a boy looking for a 48" deck with the 28 Cat, is there any chance one may come on line?" He told me there was a chance a 48" could be added into the line-up, but he was unable to say for sure.

The mower will get close to what you want, but will not be on the AOS frame.

puppypaws
06-12-2009, 11:30 PM
:laugh:PP!!! Thanks for having my back, I have already talked with Brad & Retrodog about this about 5 months ago Bad Boy, is WAYYYYY ahead of me & you;)

For such as waste of money per hour before a return on profit:rolleyes: the diesel ZTR's are selling well enough for Bad Boy to extend the diesel into a smaller frame. This is nothing new Kubota & Grasshopper have mastered the diesel ZTR, Bad Boy has taken a proven Diesel engine, and marketed their diesels to SELL very well.

I think you enjoy running the Gasburners after playing with your big diesel Tractors all day:walking:, it's just tough for you to admit the diesels are taking over are larger & larger % of the ZTR market each year. Five years ago diesels were not a good seller.

These fast ZTR's are like a fine RC car for you, yet your getting to mow the grass too:laugh:

If you and "retrodog" knew so much about this why did you not say when you were talking about it in your post that they were already in the process of putting the 28 Cat on a Lightning frame. This would have to make me believe someone only mentioned there was a chance Bad Boy was working on possibly putting a 28 Cat on a smaller decked mower. I think today is the first time anyone told you they had the Lightning with the 28 Cat already in place and will be ready to sell in their coming year. I believe you were also speaking of wanting a 48" deck on the AOS frame with the 28 Cat, is this what you said? :confused:

It is not tough for me to believe or not believe diesels are taking over a larger or a smaller percentage of the zero turn market. I totally agree the 35 Cat diesel is the best engine Bad Boy could put on their 72" AOS mower for certain people in certain situations. I also agree the 35 Vanguard is an excellent engine for other people in different situations.

retrodog
06-12-2009, 11:44 PM
If you and "retrodog" knew so much about this why did you not say when you were talking about it in your post that they were already in the process of putting the 28 Cat on a Lightning frame. This would have to make me believe someone only mentioned there was a chance Bad Boy was working on possibly putting a 28 Cat on a smaller decked mower. I think today is the first time anyone told you they had the Lightning with the 28 Cat already in place and will be ready to sell in their coming year. I believe you were also speaking of wanting a 48" deck on the AOS frame with the 28 Cat, is this what you said? :confused:

It is not tough for me to believe or not believe diesels are taking over a larger or a smaller percentage of the zero turn market. I totally agree the 35 Cat diesel is the best engine Bad Boy could put on their 72" AOS mower for certain people in certain situations. I also agree the 35 Vanguard is an excellent engine for other people in different situations.

You guys pick on each other too much.....lol. I also saw a Lightning at the factory with a 28hp dfi engine on it, I asked about getting one and they said they have put that engine on it to test it out and use for a while, I offered to help test if they got me one.........lol

nosparkplugs
06-12-2009, 11:45 PM
PP, Let me clarify I knew through many phone conversations with RetroDog & Brad with BB, that Bad Boy would be at some point be offering a diesel on a "smaller frame". I am a patient man, and would like to wait for the new smaller Bad Boy diesel; however the Kubota ZD221 with a 48 Pro deck is ready to go about 10 miles down the road, and with the Kubota spring day credit program I hardly can contain myself.

The reason why I have not said anything on the Lawsite public forums is because some folks are getting tired of listening about Bad Boys, and I really wanted to NOT be the first one to bring it up, and get jumped on it., since I have been accused of being a "know it all".

I would be happy with another Cat diesel on anything with a 48" & ADS Pro deck that Bad Boy makes. As you know PP, BB uses the same decks on all their ZTR's thats an industry first. I would not be scared to be the Guinea pig either, their great people, and stand behind their mowers 100%, and then some.

I like the cut of the smaller cutting decks period, I have avoided anything over a 60" cutting width for years. At some point I needed a large 72" deck . If Bad Boy holds true to their business model their new small frame diesel will be the biggest bang for the buck on the market, and like a true Bad Boy no one will offer more diesel power running a 48" deck:) for the money:waving:



If you and "retrodog" knew so much about this why did you not say when you were talking about it in your post that they were already in the process of putting the 28 Cat on a Lightning frame. This would have to make me believe someone only mentioned there was a chance Bad Boy was working on possibly putting a 28 Cat on a smaller decked mower. I think today is the first time anyone told you they had the Lightning with the 28 Cat already in place and will be ready to sell in their coming year. I believe you were also speaking of wanting a 48" deck on the AOS frame with the 28 Cat, is this what you said? :confused:

It is not tough for me to believe or not believe diesels are taking over a larger or a smaller percentage of the zero turn market. I totally agree the 35 Cat diesel is the best engine Bad Boy could put on their 72" AOS mower for certain people in certain situations. I also agree the 35 Vanguard is an excellent engine for other people in different situations.

puppypaws
06-12-2009, 11:47 PM
If you and "retrodog" knew so much about this why did you not say when you were talking about it in your post that they were already in the process of putting the 28 Cat on a Lightning frame. This would have to make me believe someone only mentioned there was a chance Bad Boy was working on possibly putting a 28 Cat on a smaller decked mower. I think today is the first time anyone told you they had the Lightning with the 28 Cat already in place and will be ready to sell in their coming year. I believe you were also speaking of wanting a 48" deck on the AOS frame with the 28 Cat, is this what you said? :confused:

It is not tough for me to believe or not believe diesels are taking over a larger or a smaller percentage of the zero turn market. I totally agree the 35 Cat diesel is the best engine Bad Boy could put on their 72" AOS mower for certain people in certain situations. I also agree the 35 Vanguard is an excellent engine for other people in different situations.



I am looking at Purchasing a ZD221 with a 48" deck, and I would like to see if Bad Boy would build me a AOS 28hp diesel with a 48" deck.

I am confident Bad Boy will take custom orders, if not then it will be a ZD221, Retro & I have talked about me ordering a AOS diesel with a 48" or 54" deck, time to pull the trigger on another diesel ZTR.

Yep, that is what you said, which tells me you nor "retrodog" knew anything about what Bad Boy had planned or you would not have been discussing BB buiding you a AOS with a 48" deck. You would have been talking about buying a new Lightning with a small deck and 28 Cat diesel.

nosparkplugs
06-13-2009, 12:25 AM
PP, are you drinking tonight:laugh:??? Let me try this again!!! Kevin or Retrodog Only knew that at somepoint Bad Boy would/might be offering a diesel on a smaller frame. Or like I said it would be nice to have an AOS diesel with a 48" deck. I did not call Bad Boy to specifically ask them were they are in the process, I am glad you took the time to call Bad Boy to get it straight. Retro only knew BB would be offering a smaller diesel at some point, the specific's were not debated at length, since it was back when I purchased the AOS diesel from him.

Bad Boy does do custom ZTR's for the right price; now weither I could afford a one run 28hp Cat diesel with a 48" deck, I don't know; because I never asked for a price.



Yep, that is what you said, which tells me you nor "retrodog" knew anything about what Bad Boy had planned or you would not have been discussing BB buiding you a AOS with a 48" deck. You would have been talking about buying a new Lightning with a small deck and 28 Cat diesel.

puppypaws
06-13-2009, 12:28 AM
PP, Let me clarify I knew through many phone conversations with RetroDog & Brad with BB, that Bad Boy would be at some point be offering a diesel on a "smaller frame". I am a patient man, and would like to wait for the new smaller Bad Boy diesel; however the Kubota ZD221 with a 48 Pro deck is ready to go about 10 miles down the road, and with the Kubota spring day credit program I hardly can contain myself.

The reason why I have not said anything on the Lawsite public forums is because some folks are getting tired of listening about Bad Boys, and I really wanted to NOT be the first one to bring it up, and get jumped on it., since I have been accused of being a "know it all".

I would be happy with another Cat diesel on anything with a 48" & ADS Pro deck that Bad Boy makes.

If you can back up what you say with facts, it makes no difference if people like what you say or not, there are a larger number of people you are helping.

They have a Lightning with the 28 Cat and 52" deck sitting at the factory waiting on you, just get together with "retrodog" and make it happen. Tell them you want even charge for performing vigorous testing on their prototype.

nosparkplugs
06-13-2009, 12:53 AM
pp, if I wanted to persue the exact facts on this new diesel, I would have called Bad Boy myself months ago to ask when & what, I simply was talking about it because I knew it was going to happen, it's not as if I have told a white lie or started a rumor that was not already out if you already own a Bad Boy diesel, and asked if their are going to extend the diesel line. The small frame diesel has been brought up before is what I am saying.

Not sure if I would like a 52" deck , Grasshopper has a 321D with a little 22hp bota diesel, and right now the local Grasshopper dealer will not Demo a 321D diesel non in stock, that is per the last phone call from the dealer to the factory to ask if it could happen. I guess I could just demo a 52" deck in a gasburner.





If you can back up what you say with facts, it makes no difference if people like what you say or not, there are a larger number of people you are helping.

They have a Lightning with the 28 Cat and 52" deck sitting at the factory waiting on you, just get together with "retrodog" and make it happen. Tell them you want even charge for performing vigorous testing on their prototype.

JABBERS
06-28-2009, 10:24 PM
What gas motors of BB would run a 72" deck well besides the big block 35hp?

lifetree
06-28-2009, 10:55 PM
... I was sick in tired of replacing air cooled engines on a perfectly good ZTR's:waving:

Can you please tell us after how many hours were you replacing an air cooled V-twin gas engine on a "perfectly good ZTR" ?? Also, what brand engine, size of engine, etc. ??

retrodog
06-28-2009, 11:33 PM
What gas motors of BB would run a 72" deck well besides the big block 35hp?

Hey, the 27hp LC Kawasaki is ok, the 31hp kawa, 32hp or 35hp vanguard are recommended. They were putting a 72" on the pup with the 30hp kohler last year, but I notice it is not offered this year.

lifetree
06-28-2009, 11:55 PM
... I was running air cooled gassers, and blowing them up at about 700-100hours ...

nosparkplugs -- You were having to replace your air cooled engines after only a 1,000 hours ?? What brand, what size engine ?

lifetree
06-28-2009, 11:58 PM
I know the diesel makes a difference but I have a hard time believing it makes $150/day difference. ...

I wondered about that myself !!

lifetree
06-29-2009, 12:05 AM
... the Bad Boys diesels are the lightest on the market, tough as nails too. the 3/4" deck is in it's own class too. ...

This simply is not correct ... even the BB website says the decks are only 1/4" thick !!

lifetree
06-29-2009, 12:07 AM
... Correct the 3/4" deck thickness error or you will have people thinking you are driving around in an armoured mower. Bad Boy decks are 1/4" thick, the heaviest built on the market. ...

Well, PP already mentioned this item !!

lifetree
06-29-2009, 11:27 PM
After reading through this entire last night I decided to go by the Bad Boy dealer here and check it out ... I demoed a 60" Lightning with a Kaw 26 HP L/C engine !! It seemed to have plenty of power in a regular mowing situation (i.e.-no more than 2-3 inches) and a good ride, however, it did leave some stringers and I personally feel like the seat is a little too high.

kb9nvh
06-29-2009, 11:43 PM
Seat is higher than some but not all. Not a deal breaker for myself.

what height did you set the deck?

I'm still getting mine set up..my RPMs were set low and speed and cut were diminished.
also, I'm pretty sure I need to tweak in the deck as its not measuring out correctly and this may be the cause of poor cut at higher settings.

puppypaws
06-30-2009, 12:03 AM
After reading through this entire last night I decided to go by the Bad Boy dealer here and check it out ... I demoed a 60" Lightning with a Kaw 26 HP L/C engine !! It seemed to have plenty of power in a regular mowing situation (i.e.-no more than 2-3 inches) and a good ride, however, it did leave some stringers and I personally feel like the seat is a little too high.

I take it this was a demo, are you sure the blades were in good shape, it should not be leaving strands of grass uncut. This should only happen if the blades are not sharp, the deck pitch is off or the operating rpm's are not at 3600, which slows the blade tip speed down. We caught a 31 Kawi on a brand new Lightning today only turning 3250, this makes a tremendous difference.

mattwilliams17
07-06-2009, 10:20 AM
I can comment on the mileage of the Vanguard 32hp, since I have a snapper pro s200x with the 61" deck. My fuel mileage has been right around the 2.5 gph, with the first fill up at the 3.0 gph mark. My mower seems to be getting better fuel economy as the hours add up, but it is definitely a gas hog. But, here in Western NC, I needed the hp to climb all these hills, and the Vanguard doesn't disappoint when it comes to power.
:clapping:

retrodog
07-06-2009, 02:38 PM
I can comment on the mileage of the Vanguard 32hp, since I have a snapper pro s200x with the 61" deck. My fuel mileage has been right around the 2.5 gph, with the first fill up at the 3.0 gph mark. My mower seems to be getting better fuel economy as the hours add up, but it is definitely a gas hog. But, here in Western NC, I needed the hp to climb all these hills, and the Vanguard doesn't disappoint when it comes to power.
:clapping:

Wow, thats what I am getting too, I was starting to believe I had a lemon by all these folks talking 1 to 1.5. I like the .7 of the cat diesel a little better, but thats just me...

mattwilliams17
07-06-2009, 03:28 PM
Retrodog, I think we are a little closer to the average than most care to admit with these big block motors. I am lucky to get 6 hours out of my twin 7 gallon tanks, more like 4.5-5 hours.
So lets say my mower uses 3 gph, and the diesel uses .7 gph, with a difference of 2.3 gph at $2.60 per gallon. That's $6.00 per hour cheaper to run the diesel.
And that also makes the break even point 500 hours between the gas and diesel.
Thats a long way from the 1300 hour break even point described earlier in this thread.

puppypaws
07-06-2009, 08:04 PM
I can comment on the mileage of the Vanguard 32hp, since I have a snapper pro s200x with the 61" deck. My fuel mileage has been right around the 2.5 gph, with the first fill up at the 3.0 gph mark. My mower seems to be getting better fuel economy as the hours add up, but it is definitely a gas hog. But, here in Western NC, I needed the hp to climb all these hills, and the Vanguard doesn't disappoint when it comes to power.
:clapping:

If you are pulling 2.5 gallons per hr. through a 32 hp Vanguard, you are working the fool out of the governor. To pull that amount of fuel through that particular engine the governor has to be working constantly, whereas in the cutting we do in this area, you will never hear the governor operate. There is a tremendous difference in fuel economy of an engine in a constant strain, versus the same engine when you never hear it change sounds.

I cut at 15 mph with a Kohler 28 efi on a 66" deck and it never changes sound this time of year, it is too hot and dry in this area. I can go out and start mowing at the break of day in the morning, and there may be a little dampness show on the tires, but nothing to affect cutting conditions.

I've operated a 32 Vanguard on a 60" Bad Boy Lightning and the only time I heard the governor operate, or the rpms drop the least amount, was in this area I left this for the intention of choking the engine completely down. I could not believe how this engine and deck handled this grass. which measured as much as 36" in places, with an average of 30". This is broad-leaf signal grass which is always very sappy and extremely hard to cut, even in 90° weather at 3:00 pm, the driest part of the day.

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=84128&stc=1&d=1183519139

You put it in this, and it will never change sounds, it will cut this with zero effort and good fuel economy.

I see where you are from now, where my Grandpa was born and raised, you are climbing mountains with your mower, this in itself uses fuel before you get the blades turned on.

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152723&stc=1&d=1245727570

JABBERS
07-06-2009, 09:50 PM
You are talking about 2 different animals when you say efi. A carberated motor will use more gas. The efi shoots more fuel in when you start to put it under a load thats why it doesn't change pitch (governor working), thats also why its good on gas.

kb9nvh
07-06-2009, 10:04 PM
32 vanguard he talked of was normally aspirated I think..right?

Actually, they both get more fuel when put under load (efi and carb)..its just that and EFI is more efficient at it and can control more effectively and quickly to the engine loading conditions.

puppypaws
07-06-2009, 10:37 PM
You are talking about 2 different animals when you say efi. A carberated motor will use more gas. The efi shoots more fuel in when you start to put it under a load thats why it doesn't change pitch (governor working), thats also why its good on gas.

What I'm talking about is the mowing is much easier on a mower engine fuel wise in my area than most parts of the country. The 28 efi can be made to grunt in heavy damp spring growth, but you can put the 32 Vanguard with its mechanical governor in the same grass and it will never change sounds. The 32 Vanguard is that much stronger, if it had the Bosch efi system it would really be the cats meow. When you hear a governor kick in on an underpowered engine, you know the fuel is being slurped at a much faster rate.

Yes, the 28 efi is excellent on fuel, and actually feels stronger than its actual hp because of no throttle lag. The difference would be if you took the efi away from the 28 hp Kohler, it would work much harder in slightly heavier damp grass than the than the 32 Vanguard. It would cause the 28 (nothing but a 27 Kohler with efi), to work and use more fuel accordingly than the 32 would just cruising through the same grass, not really having to work.

brucec
07-07-2009, 03:10 AM
I got almost 10 hours before my first refuel and they were not quite full when I started.

puppypaws
07-07-2009, 08:31 AM
I got almost 10 hours before my first refuel and they were not quite full when I started.

We have a tremendous variation in fuel usage with the same engine as you can see. This is a good question to ask, what do each of you think could cause such a huge difference? I would, and feel assured everyone else would like to hear; what you think the reason for such a large variation in fuel usage could be?


Retrodog, I think we are a little closer to the average than most care to admit with these big block motors. I am lucky to get 6 hours out of my twin 7 gallon tanks, more like 4.5-5 hours.

kb9nvh
07-07-2009, 08:49 AM
With each engine pumping nearly the same amount of air it either has to be cut conditions, maybe air temp/humidity or carb variations which, if so, is a quality problem. If EFI gets different then I would say operating conditions are different.

We have a tremendous variation in fuel usage with the same engine as you can see. This is a good question to ask, what do each of you think could cause such a huge difference? I would, and feel assured everyone else would like to hear; what you think the reason for such a large variation in fuel usage could be?

puppypaws
07-07-2009, 08:58 AM
With each engine pumping nearly the same amount of air it either has to be cut conditions, maybe air temp/humidity or carb variations which, if so, is a quality problem. If EFI gets different then I would say operating conditions are different.

I'm thinking both engines are 32 Vanguards (no efi involved), they posted such a large variation in fuel consumption, it's almost too large to understand.

Ford850
07-07-2009, 09:11 AM
I'm thinking both engines are 32 Vanguards (no efi involved), they posted such a large variation in fuel consumption, it's almost too large to understand.
Are they all set at the same max RPM? If they are all set at the same max RPM, are they being used at full throttle all the time? Is the fuel mix the same, or are some using pure gasoline, some with small ethanol mix, and others using a stronger ethanol mix? what octane? What engine oil are they using?
Add to that, elevation differences, flat vs hills, types of grass, moisture, air temps, etc, and it makes for a very unscientific comparison.

johnnybravo8802
07-07-2009, 09:13 AM
We have a tremendous variation in fuel usage with the same engine as you can see. This is a good question to ask, what do each of you think could cause such a huge difference? I would, and feel assured everyone else would like to hear; what you think the reason for such a large variation in fuel usage could be?
Hole in the fuel tank, maybe?:rolleyes:

Razorblades
07-07-2009, 09:20 AM
I'm thinking both engines are 32 Vanguards (no efi involved), they posted such a large variation in fuel consumption, it's almost too large to understand.

I'm thinking that all parties involved, or any that would want to be sure, should recheck their gph usage in normal (for them) usage using the tried and true method of filling gas tank to the bottom of neck and recording their mower hrs at that time and then refilling tank/s to the same point and record their hrs again and do the math.

I agree that their is a large disparity in the diffences in fuel usage out of basically the same machine. I have checked my gph on my Lastec with the 32 HP Generac engine and have not EVER used over 2 gph with it. It usually ranges between 1.6 and 1.8 depending on blades and cutting conditions. It has used as low as 1.5 in light growth and std lift blades.

puppypaws
07-07-2009, 09:37 AM
I'm thinking that all parties involved, or any that would want to be sure, should recheck their gph usage in normal (for them) usage using the tried and true method of filling gas tank to the bottom of neck and recording their mower hrs at that time and then refilling tank/s to the same point and record their hrs again and do the math.

I agree that their is a large disparity in the diffences in fuel usage out of basically the same machine. I have checked my gph on my Lastec with the 32 HP Generac engine and have not EVER used over 2 gph with it. It usually ranges between 1.6 and 1.8 depending on blades and cutting conditions. It has used as low as 1.5 in light growth and std lift blades.

I would think what you are saying is close to normal, only difference depending on hilly terrain and grass conditions. I actually checked my 28 efi by filling both tanks to the bottom of the neck, then taking a wooden skewer stick, like would be used for a shish kabob. I stuck a new one in each side and put a black mark at the gas level (to make sure no gas shifted). I ran the 28 efi in light to some medium cutting conditions for one hour timed exactly. I came back and checked the tank that was cut off to make sure no gas shifted by the valve, then took a 32 oz. measuring cup and filled it back the the marked level on the stick and it took 118 oz. to fill it up. This is as precisely as it can be measured without highly sophisticated equipment, and it concluded the amount burned was .92 gph.

mattwilliams17
07-07-2009, 09:59 AM
I assure you guys that my gas usage numbers are correct, I have run 4 tanks through the Vanguard, with an average of 2.6 gph. However, I am mowing at 3500' in elevation on average, with very steep slopes. Puppypaws commented that he didn't hear the governor kick in on the 32 hp that he ran, and i will say that I hear the motor bog half the time I am mowing. I frequently have to accelerate quickly at the base of a hill and let off at the top to keep the front end down, so I guess my fuel usage numbers are a worse case scenario. I actually bought the Snapper with the 25hp kawi, and it wouldn't climb half the hills I mow without nearly coming to a stop, and this Vanguard will ride a wheelie if I don't let out of it.

By the way, One tank fill up that I had was mowing up and down a huge hill, gave me 3.1 gph.

puppypaws
07-07-2009, 02:11 PM
I assure you guys that my gas usage numbers are correct, I have run 4 tanks through the Vanguard, with an average of 2.6 gph. However, I am mowing at 3500' in elevation on average, with very steep slopes. Puppypaws commented that he didn't hear the governor kick in on the 32 hp that he ran, and i will say that I hear the motor bog half the time I am mowing. I frequently have to accelerate quickly at the base of a hill and let off at the top to keep the front end down, so I guess my fuel usage numbers are a worse case scenario. I actually bought the Snapper with the 25hp kawi, and it wouldn't climb half the hills I mow without nearly coming to a stop, and this Vanguard will ride a wheelie if I don't let out of it.

By the way, One tank fill up that I had was mowing up and down a huge hill, gave me 3.1 gph.

This is a very informative post and the type information people need to know.
You are putting the 32 Vanguard into what sounds to be a worse case scenario. When you bog a 32 Vanguard, it is in a very extreme cutting situation, and I would say it is a combination causing the high fuel usage.

The hills themselves evidently are very steep, and is what the engine is dealing with a very large percentage of the time. Then you throw in thick, moisture heavy grass (possibly larger than normal), higher elevation (thinner air), and you have pulled 10 hp away from the mower causing it to labor possibly 80% of its running time. This can easily make 1/2 to possibly 1 gallon per hr. difference in fuel economy, over the same mower and engine running in my area, where grass is very easily cut, and the governor never needs to operate.

This is the kind of information that needs sharing, enabling others to understand how there can be so much difference in the same engines fuel economy. Worst case scenario versus best case scenario.

Thanks for sharing! :)

tacoma200
07-07-2009, 02:52 PM
When my friends tell me the fuel usage of their vehicles and it sounds way off I tell them I will bet them a $100 bill on the spot that they are wrong and lets go prove it right now. We will top off the tank, drive a couple of hundred miles on a marked interstate and then fill back up to the exact level. I've never had one take me up on it because they were just guessing and not doing a very good job. One guy said his Toyota 4X4 pickup got 35 mpg when the 2 wheel drive trucks don't even give that on the windshield at the dealer under "ideal" circumstances. So he backed down of course, he wanted to keep his money and started telling how the gauge showed this or that and he drove about so many miles. In other words he was speculating wildly.

You have to fill the tanks to the same level several times and keep track of the hours to get a good average GPH. I would not trust the figures on one tank. I usually keep track the first 20 some hours to see if my initial figures were correct. The only 3 engines I have checked were a 27 Kohler I think was around 1.29 gallons per hours if I remember correctly. Both of the big block Briggs checked almost the same usually varying between 1.3 and 1.5 gph. This is under light load, idling a couple of minutes to warm up or cool down, and sometimes lowering the throttle around flower beds etc. Most company's check these engines under a heavy load for the full time so they get higher figures than I do. No offense but I think "most" of the variance you find is due to the difference in checking methods (and conditions) rather than the engines but not always (never say never). I know of few people that get an exact figure or check the results over a long period of time to verify the results.

mattwilliams17
07-07-2009, 03:30 PM
I will keep you guys updated with how it does in the future, I will say that the John Deere 757 I used to run in the same places averaged a little over 2 gph over 100 hours. But the Deere had the 25 Kawi, and a whole lot less power

MS_SURVEYOR
07-07-2009, 03:58 PM
I've checked my 30hp Kohler twice. It seems to get (1.46 gph). To me it seemed to be higher that that, but at the pump and using the hour gage (1.46 gph) seems to be close. We keep close records of usage! So when my wife goes to her mothers to mow, and she tries to trim close with the mower, we're just wasting gas. It's cheaper to use a string trimmer and let the bad dog mow.

ms

Capemay Eagle
03-23-2011, 03:58 PM
Do you still have the mower?

brucec
03-23-2011, 04:39 PM
Wow you dug up an old thread! LOL! Yeah I still have it...for now. My neighbor is buying it from me. I just picked up a new grandstand. Love the BB it was just to big for my accounts that I have now.

Capemay Eagle
03-23-2011, 04:45 PM
Wow you dug up an old thread! LOL! Yeah I still have it...for now. My neighbor is buying it from me. I just picked up a new grandstand. Love the BB it was just to big for my accounts that I have now. Yeah, I wanted to see how the mower held up? Oddly enough you just happened to be online when I posted it :laugh: