i will not sign a contract

[bobbygedd]

i got some work in this real nice development, so i put fliers out in the whole development in an effort to get more clients there. well, i got a phone call for an estimate, i went by, and gave her a price, she says can u do it for $5 less? i said no way. she said if u do, ill get my 2 neighbors hire u too. i said well, y would i want to do u, and all yur neighbors for $5 less than what its worth? she said, no, just charge them regular, and give me the discount for getting them 4 u. i said, well, if they agree to my price, i can do it. i went by today with contracts, they all refused to sign a contract, said they would rather do it "on the honor system" i laughed, said no thanks, and politely left. i just got this gut feeling, if they wouldnt sign a simple agreement, which really only says ill do xyz work, and u will pay xyz for it, i have to think they r not trustworthy. would any of u guys have just said ok, and started working?

[nuthinlikeadame]

Personally, I view this as a test. If five dollars is a sticking point for them you'll definately have problems with them later. Not to mention the fact that they don't want anything to do with your contract. Let the neighbor boy screw it up for them.

[Bob Minney]

NO
I'm with you 100%-no sign,no work
Yep-honor what you say, but say it in writting, its improves memory greatly

That gut feeling is experience

[MuskTurfKing]

You don't need people like that, they're just going to be more trouble and headaches than it's worth, especially if they won't sign a contract.

Hank

[Albemarle Lawn]

You don't need a contract. I have been on the "honor system" with all my customers for 8 years, no problems.

Once, I had a Patel Hotel not pay, and the judge ruled in my favor when I sued, even though there was no contract just a verbal agreement.

Ken

[bobbygedd]

well, i like to sleep at night, and since getting most of my customers on contracts, i can sleep. not many guys will go to court for say $50-$60, but the mental anguish it would cause, knowing that i allowed someone to beat me, would kill me.

[eslawns]

I don't normally use contracts either. I prefer to do business with a handshake. In some cases, however, I will use a work order.

As far as $5 being a sticking point, it depends what you're talking about. If you mean a job you bid $125 a week to mow, and she says $120, maybe you can give her her way, but if you said $25 and she wants $20, that's another thing.

I don't use a dartboard for pricing, I measure the lawn. I know I can cut X sq ft in so much time, and do Y edging and trmming in so much time, and it will take Z time to blow off the walk. It sounds as if she has either had other quotes, or more likely, she just wanted to beat you down a little.

[landscaper3]

Pat yourself on your back you did the right thing! NO contract No work!

[MuskTurfKing]

I don't use contracts right now because I'm a minor, everyone I asked around town told me it wouldn't be legally binding. But once I'm 18 EVERYTHING will be on a contract, gotta cover yourself.

Hank

[landscaper3]

Good to here that Hank! Its really the only way to do business, That way your customers have the exact service your providing at this exact cost. Your customers will have the exact service provided and billing info. Hand shakes to me are a thing of the past but we are over 50% commercial and a hand shake will not do with the big corperate buildings we maintain. Good to see your looking ahaid Hank.

[MuskTurfKing]

Thank ya, I try to do my best. I just don't want to end up in a situation where they say I need to do something and it's not in the contract. All you gotta do is pull it out and they can't say a thing about it. Unless of course they pay ya. :p

Hank

[MikeLT1Z28]

tell them you need them to sign it as permission to be on their land doing work they requested so you don't get carted off to jail and your equipment impounded. kind of trickery, but if it's gets the name on the line....

[LAWNS AND MOWER]

Originally posted by Albemarle Lawn
You don't need a contract. I have been on the "honor system" with all my customers for 8 years, no problems.



Ken

I'm with you Ken. Been in biz for 15 years and never used a contract. Only been stiffed for $150 in 15 years. Different situations dictate if contracts are needed. I'm not suggesting people use or don't use contracts. You just have to go with what works best for you. Fortunatly for me, contracts aren't needed.

LAWNS AND MOWER

[Brickman]

Some do, some don't. Most of my commercial are on the honor system, and ones that I have had for a while. All of my residential are hand shake.
Some body mentioned not worth taking $50 or $60 to court. You don't have to. Send it to a collection agency. Even if you don't get the whole amount from them just know the loser had to pay up or get his credit messed with is worth it to me.
My invoices all say 2% after 30 days, with all acounts going to collection at 60. In the last two years I haven't been shafted out of any money, and only one customer had to find out that I wasn't joking about sending her to collection.

I say what ever works for you. And if the time comes that you have to change, change with it.

[bobbygedd]

but, there were times i went to the police(after all, it is theft) and they told me, "do u have anything in writing?" i say no, they say dont waste our time. damn, if the honor system works so good, can someone please laon me $2000, i "promise" ill pay u back

[LAWNPROzII]

I always get a contract, regardless. This way if they don't decide to pay you for any reason you can have some kind of leverage on them. If not then they usually try to bend you over and mow your grass.

[kris]

Do your contracts have a "out" for you and them ???...if not then some people are hesitant about signing. I say get them to sign ..90% of our maintenance customers sign ... about 10% are such good customers that I cant bring myself to ask them to sign ..one even offered but I told him it wasn't necessary ...he also happens to be our biggest residential ..about $1,500.00 a month ... I trust him completely.

[proline32]

I prefer contracts..... That way everything is spelled out in writing and they signed it, I just prefer it that way....If a customer wants to dally over 5 bucks let em find someone else. Today, a customer who I've mowed for a while decided they want to cancel this year due to the fact that I raised the cost of service $10 bucks per visit..... hey, no problemo..... I only had 20 voicemails today from people wanting me to give them an estimate so I'm not concerned about loosing one customer.

[JR LeGer]

My company does not use contracts at all for any type of residential maintenance and I do not want them. I like the luxury of being able to shake up our accounts and cancel less profitable ones if we find ourselves moving in a direction that would be hampered by retaining some smaller residential accounts.

We do use them for any type of "contracting" work such as installations and troubleshooting and repairs of any kind because we require 20% down and they have 3 days to cancel or monies are non-refundable. Also, if we get stiffed on an install for the other 80%, it is hard to place a lien on their home without some sort of signed document. In AZ, a verbal contract is just like a written contract, but obviously it would be their word against ours.

We also do not do any commercial maintenance of any kind without a contract. You are talking about accounts that can pay anywhere from $1000 to $20,000 a month and if they get a better bid they can just cancel with no contract. (No, we do not have any $20,000 a month accounts...yet). I actually designed our contracts and estimate forms and everything else we have myself (attorney reviewed) and we have never lost, yet.

We have never been stiffed on an install, but we have on maintenance. You feel like taking rock salt and putting it in their lawns, but of course we do not do that.

Anyway, one thing we do strictly enforce is on time payments. We bill on the first and it is due by the 18th. If we do not have it ten days later, their service stops until we get paid. Around these parts, everything is governed by homeowners associations, so we have waaaayyyy to much paperwork to do.

Joe

[JimLewis]

I am with Albemarle and Joe. We don't do contracts. When we do good work, people have a reason to keep us around. No need for a contract when your service demands their repeat business.

I haven't done a contract for any of our customers in 7 years.

There are two kinds of contractors; Those who are strict about contracts and those who aren't. And the latter group lands all of the clients the first group alienates.

Now don't get me wrong. I am very strict about clients paying us and paying on time. But I don't need a contract for that.

Hey, nothing wrong with having a stringent contract-only policy if you don't mind alienating some people. Just understand there are people who don't want to sign contracts and you're not going to be able to land those clients. Just don't come bitching when the people don't want to sign a contract. That's their right. And it's your right to turn it down.

If it had been me, I'd have landed 3 new accounts. That's why we've grown so fast I suppose.

[Sean Adams]

I agree with Jim when it comes to residential clients. By insisting upon a signed agreement, you are going to alienate certain people. Some folks just prefer not to sign on the dotted line. In the same manner that you might not trust them, they may not trust you. If the quality of your work speaks for itself, contracts are a formality. If you are insistent upon signed agreements, maybe prove yourself first, and present the POSSIBILITY of signing an agreement down the road. If they refuse, don't let it ruin the relationship. Business is business is business... getting taken for money is simply one of those things you may encounter and have to deal with. As far as commercial clients, that is a different ball game. Commercial work can require you to tie up a lot of your own money. Some commercial properties will come right out and tell you - our policy is net 60. Companies go bankrupt, downsize, etc.... A contract with a commercial client is practically a must. But then again, everyone is different. It has been said many times over...whatever works best for you - there is no right or wrong in this case.

Sean Adams

[strickdad]

Originally posted by bobbygedd
well, i like to sleep at night, and since getting most of my customers on contracts, i can sleep. not many guys will go to court for say $50-$60, but the mental anguish it would cause, knowing that i allowed someone to beat me, would kill me. bobby i certinally dont mean any disrepect here, but if you or any one else in this forum is worried that someone will beat you out of a 50.00 or 60.00 dollar job, you are in the wrong bussiness... meaning that if you cant afford to lose (not every day just every once in a while) that money you are doing something wrong.

[JimLewis]

A contract with a commercial client is practically a must. I agree with Sean here. If we did commercial, I'd definitely do contracts.

My previous comments were in regards to residential maintenance only.

[Brickman]

I agree that there is no right or wrong way, but what ever works for you. Some of the contractors that insist on contracts may have been stiffed in the past to give them the out look they have to day. Other that haven't still feel OK without contracts. I don't have any residential with contracts, and only some of my commercial. I turned an over due bill to collection, and didn't have any problem collecting. I was never asked about a written agrement.

(Commercial work can require you to tie up a lot of your own money. Some commercial properties will come right out and tell you - our policy is net 60.)

There is almost no way I would take on a job knowing up front this was their policy. It would have to be a very good paying contract for me to leave MY money in their hands that long. It is totally rediculous for them to expect that. No body we do business with allows that. The phone company, electric company, parts supplier. Dealers, fertilizer supplier. So WHY should we?????

[TGCummings]

For what it's worth, my Professional Landscaper home study course says the same thing as Sean and Jim. Always contract with commercial clients, but contracting with residentials is 'unnecessary'. I've found that to be true, myself.

And, since I don't like a lot of commercial work myself, it cuts down on the paperwork. ;)

[Sean Adams]

Brickman.... You are right when you say that it might not be worth waiting for 60 days....But, when it comes to commercial, depending on the client, it can mean big money... Some lawn & landscape businesses are willing to wait for $10,000 - $15,000 per invoice...as long as your bookkeeping is accurate and organized it is not a problem. I still believe it is best to avoid these types of accounts unless you are extremely confident in regard to your working capital.

Sean Adams

[vangreg]

I have never heard of contracts with small residentials - only with large high maintance homes and businesses. If they ever don't want me taking care of there home for any reason, I don't want to be there anyway.

[Heavy]

I'm in the same boat Hank's in. I just turned 18 so I flipped to using contarcts, and all my customers wined, but you gotta cover your own ass.

[bobbygedd]

its not the $50 bucks that would bother me, i can piss that away in less than 5 min, its the principle. it is very unfortunate that there are people who actually get a thrill out of screwing other people out their money. i will not plead, beg, or argue for my money, i would like to pound it out of some people, but thats against the law, so i rely on the legal system. guess what, i have never had a contracted customer beat me out of a nickle! thanx for all your replies. but i think the industry as a whole would benefit from everyone using contracts, this would weed out the deabeat customers(i know they r far and few between, but they r out there)

[LJ lawn]

i just went to court today for a deadbeat customer.he was a no show so i won by default.but still had to wait and explain my case to the judge why?BECAUSE i had no WRITTEN CONTRACT. i had only a verbal agreement.BUT, he accepted it when i showed all my bills.there was a guy who was there (home remodeling co.) who was in the same situation.but he was beat out of 2 grand. he didn't have a wrirren contract for the work to be done-the guy kept adding extras.luckily the judge accepted his plea also,but gave him a warning about doing work again without a contract .now i have to file and send more paperwork to the state so i can put a lien on his house or on his credit rating.unfortunately i don't have his bank account # or his place of work.or else they would take it out of his account or garnish his wages.this sucks but i WILL have the last laugh with this moron.

[JimLewis]

Well, for $2000, that's a whole other issue. I thought we were talking about residential lawn mowing. For me, that means about $115-$150 per month. And I never let anyone get more than a month behind.

I've rarely not been able to collect money from people who owed it to me. And I've never had to take anyone to court either.

But if it comes down to it, I am not going to take them to court over $150. I'll let them sit with it on their credit record (from my collection agency) for 7 years. That's good enough for me. My time is more valuable to me than to take someone to court for a few hundred bucks.

But for $2000, you better be damn sure I'm getting a contract. That guy WAS stupid for doing that much work without a contract. In our state, any job over $1000 requires a contract by law. But typically, that's landscape construction / installation. Not lawn mowing. And I thought this thread was related to residential maintenance only.

[bobbygedd]

good deal lj, at least u did what u could. it hurts our reputation when these guys" just forget about it" when someone stiffs them. personally, i like to avoid all questions, plain and simple, its right here in writing, your honor. makes us look like a bunch of pee ons when someone is allowed to get over on us

[C4chris70]

I have been in business for 14 years now, and have just recently started doing service agreements for all new customers. Just in the past few years I have noticed that there are more and more people who just can't be taken at their word for payment. My contract does leave an out clause for both myself and the customer, and I always explain to them that the agreement simply spells out the services I will provide and the payment terms for the protection of both parties. I'm not sure how it is elsewhere, but in Florida there is so much competition that people just tend to run up the bill as high as possible, then just switch to another of the 5000 companies in the phone book. I wish it were as simple as just cutting off the customer after 30 days, but unfortunatley I find that most people are late payers month after month. Don't get me wrong, most do pay eventually, but my payroll and other daily expenses are due now!

[SLS]

I gather from reading this thread that maybe demographics and client-types have something to do with whether a contract is needed for residential accounts.

In my area I have not found contracts to be necessary as all 40 of my residential accounts are good as gold when it comes to payments. 3 years and have not been stiffed yet (knock on wood).

When doing a bid I do look for the 'tell tale' signs of financial difficulties (treadbare tires on the car, bad roof, typical neglect of property, etc.) and bid SKY HIGH in order not to pick up that particular lawn. I think this helps weed out potential deadbeats.

Besides, I either collect on the spot or leave a bill after each service. I don't mow more than twice before receiving payment...so getting beat out of more than $100 is out of the question.

If I were doing commercial I would insist on a contract. And I agree, net 60 days seems a little stiff. Why allow them to draw the interest using YOUR money?