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View Full Version : 8% Triclopyr... mix/app question


Whitey4
06-27-2009, 01:15 AM
Label says 1 oz per gallon per 200 square feet, even when using a backpack! One gallon for every 200 sq feet? Does that mean spraying far beyond run off, or what? How the heck will spraying that volume result in uptake by the leaves of the weeds? Is this stuff supposed to be soil drenched?

I've tried to Google the mode of this herbicide, but have come up empty. The label does mention that mowing should be delayed, and 24 hours of no irrigation is stated.

So, if it penetrates the foliage, why does it call for 1 gallon per 200 sq feet? :confused:

greendoctor
06-27-2009, 04:10 AM
I think the label instructions are written for homeowners who do not have the proper spray equipment to apply to a lawn. That is the volume required if spraying a lawn by waving an adjustable nozzle over a lawn. This is how some of the local bozos spray lawns. You ought to see a lawn sprayed with 1 oz/gallon MSMA, 4 gallons appled per 1000. I would mix 5 oz in however much water YOU need to cover 1000 sq ft accurately and evenly. Add a nonionic surfactant and watch the weeds curl. In my case, I spray 1000 sq ft with 1-2 gallons. Of course that is with a pressure regulated wand and AI fan tips. Triclopyr amine is active primarily through the leaves. If enough is applied to be active through the soil, bye bye trees and shrubs. That happens at rates above 1 lb per acre. I think 5 oz per 1000 of an 8% amine is less than a dangerous rate.

bug-guy
06-27-2009, 10:44 AM
i would aggre with green M.D. 5 gals per 1000 sound like tank mixing or garden hose attachment. Triclopyr has a vast label when i use it down here to control some vines the labels is a much lower rate but always given in pints or qts per acre i just do the math (twice) for rate per 1000

Runner
06-27-2009, 11:41 AM
At 5 gallons/M, most of it is going down to the soil surface - bypassing the foliar material, anyway (unless it is tall weeds).
But on another note, is that really right? 5 oz. per M?

RigglePLC
06-27-2009, 03:19 PM
Whitey,
The commercial product is about 4 times as concentrated. Ortho is trying to make it simple for the homeowner, but they still have to use the label recommended amount of active ingredient per acre. As mentioned above, use the proper amount triclopyr per 1000 sqft, (5 oz), but adjust the water to fit your application method. Find out how much water it takes to cover a measured 1000 sqft of cement. Add your 5 oz triclopyr to that amount of water.

Myself I cover 1000 sqft with about a half gallon of water.

Whitey4
06-27-2009, 07:16 PM
Whitey,
The commercial product is about 4 times as concentrated. Ortho is trying to make it simple for the homeowner, but they still have to use the label recommended amount of active ingredient per acre. As mentioned above, use the proper amount triclopyr per 1000 sqft, (5 oz), but adjust the water to fit your application method. Find out how much water it takes to cover a measured 1000 sqft of cement. Add your 5 oz triclopyr to that amount of water.

Myself I cover 1000 sqft with about a half gallon of water.

OK. Without me saying so, you guys knew I bought the Ortho... can't get much past you guys! BTW, what is the commercial version of triclopyr? I might be able to gleam info from that label, and next time around, if I like my results with this, I will buy whatever the commercial unit container is...

So, what is the commercial version of triclopyr? Brand names?

A half gallon per k sounds about right to me... so 2.5 oz per k and 5 oz per gallon. I know my sprayer pretty well, but I will make sure tha the 1/2 gallon per k is right. I will both broadcast and spot spray with the same tank mix.

Now, I just need one day... just one stinkin day with less than 10% chance of rain in the forecast. Bassads... It didn't rain today, but they called for spotty thunderstorms.

Thanks for the replies.

RigglePLC
06-27-2009, 08:40 PM
Turflon is the main triclopyr product for turf, Garlon for brush control. Amazing stuff. Water clear--no odor. Friendly toxicity profile.

Whitey4
06-27-2009, 11:08 PM
Turflon is the main triclopyr product for turf, Garlon for brush control. Amazing stuff. Water clear--no odor. Friendly toxicity profile.

OK... I thought all esters were very combustable, but to my surprise, Turflon is not apparently, and better yet, it isn't restricted or prohibited here!

After looking over the label, I figure on 5 oz./gallon is indeed a good, but safe (not too hot) tank mix for the Ortho. I plan on spiking this with Quicksilver, but also noticed that Turflon can be mixed with most 3 ways as well.

Anyone ever try this? Does it make sense to mix all 3?

My backyard has every weed that grows in NY. It is my laboratory, and I may do some experimenting with this idea. Treat one area with Turflon and QS, another with 3 way and QS, and a third with a 3 mix combo, 3 way, Turflon and QS. See what happens...

greendoctor
06-28-2009, 04:31 AM
I do. In zoysia lawns only, I mix my own 3 way + Quicksilver. That one is 2,4-D ester, Turflon ester, Banvel and Quicksilver. Nothing kills broadleaves more efficiently and completely. In my opinion, triclopyr is the ideal component of a lawn herbicide. It is too bad that most warm season grasses are intolerant of it to the point of it being useful to remove them from cool season grasses and zoysia. The low rate of triclopyr and the low rate of 3 Way with a Quicksilver spike will probably remove everything but the turfgrass. Believe it or not, triclopyr is not as scrutinized by regulatory agencies. It is considered a "reduced risk" pesticide. When 2,4-D was regulated off the market in Hawaii, both Turflon and Garlon were completely non restricted. You want crazy, go to California. All broadleaf herbicides are RUP there. including Turflon.

Do not fool with any ester herbicides on warm, windless days. A little warm, up to 85 is ok on a well fertilized and irrigated lawn. Windless means the vapors from the ester are able to saturate the air near the treatment area enough to damage trees and plants. I actually prefer that there be a 5-10 MPH breeze blowing the day I apply esters. Have not had any problems yet doing that even though it is 85+ almost every day here. On the other hand, I have made trees curl by spraying 2,4-D ester on a windless, warm and ridiculously humid day. Those are the days that it is wiser for me to be in the pool or at the reefs instead of spraying.

RigglePLC
06-28-2009, 09:15 AM
Whitey,
can't wait to see the results of your experiments. Keep us up to date, OK?
If you use a half gallon of water per k--and the label calls for 5 ounces per k--then mix 5 ounces in a half gallon.

Runner
06-28-2009, 03:06 PM
I use triclopyr as a spike sometimes. I use the Lesco brand Confront, and mix 1/4 oz. per thousand.

Whitey4
06-28-2009, 03:18 PM
I use triclopyr as a spike sometimes. I use the Lesco brand Confront, and mix 1/4 oz. per thousand.

How many gallons you use per M? How do you deliver it? I'm still a back pack guy, as I am an LCO... not quite enough volume (and small properties) to get a spray rig.

greendoctor
06-28-2009, 03:31 PM
Whitey, what kind of nozzle is on the end of your backpack wand? Reason why I ask is that it is possible to apply 1/2-1 gallon/1000 precisely and with good coverage if the right tip is used. I use a Teejet AI11004VS tip on a wand to apply a gallon per 1000 with little to no drift. Unless a sprayer comes with a Teejet wand, trigger and nozzle, the existing gets discarded and replaced with Teejet equipment. Sadly, otherwise good hand sprayers are useless unless this is done. I have had the wand and nozzle cost more than the sprayer it was attached to, but that is what it takes.

Whitey4
07-04-2009, 11:47 AM
OK, I used this mix:

5 oz 8% triclopyr per gallon
1 oz 3way, 2-4,D; 3.6%, DS Mecoprop; 1.8%, DS Dicloroprop 1.8% per gallon
1 mL Quicksilver per gallon

Used this for spot spraying and for some blanket apps. Blanket apps were about 1/3 gallon per k, cone nozzle set for fine particle delivery.

Did 15 properties. Good kill so far (sprayed on June 29). I'll have to wait a while to see how the wild violets respond, as the typical leaf wilting of the Quicksilver app is apparent. Clover looks like one app may be enough for a total kill.

Here is the kicker: Kill looks good on 14 out of 15 properties.

That 15th property is burnt to a crisp!? Large sections of the rye/BG grass got fried. I have seen no evidence of burn on ANY of the other 14 at all. Some of it should recover, but I think I'm looking at having to sod about 600 square feet of turf on this one property.

My only shot in the dark guess is that maybe the tank settled, and this house got a hot shot, but even if I did forget to shake the BP sprayer up before my app, the drive to that house is a bumpy one... could the mix have settled? Did I forget to shake the tank before I applied? I used this same tank mix on 3 other lawns, and no burn whatsoever.

Luckilly, this is a very reasonable customer, who insisted on sharing any resodding costs, which I refused. We agreed to wait a week or two before declaring the lawn needs a resodding, but talk about ruining my weekend... What the heck went wrong here? Same formulation for 15 houses, same tank used on 4 of them... and one gets fried? The others are all fine? :confused:

Anyway, happy 4th! :cry: :usflag:

Whitey4
07-04-2009, 03:56 PM
Bump for replies.... wtf happened here? My weekend is for chit now.... sure would make me feel better if someone might comment on what might have gone wrong!

RigglePLC
07-04-2009, 05:05 PM
Whitey,
this is mysterious. Why the difference on the one property? Settled out? Forgot to shake it? Did it settle out while you ate lunch? Maybe...

I think I had a problem of settling out using my Permagreen Ultra--back when I used ester.(No quicksilver). Ester needs agitation--hot mix, and a long ride on rough roads just didn't help. Quicksilver is not water soluble. Triclopyr is water soluble--I think. How soon did the burn appear? Anything sooner than a day or so is more likely due to the fact acting Quicksilver (carfentrazone). Look at the weeds--do they appear to have more pronounced Quicksilver symptoms (burned spots on the leaves)?

Please try it again and let us know what happened.

greendoctor
07-04-2009, 06:43 PM
If in fact it is settling, the first lawns would not have a problem. I know esters and Quicksilver tend to float to the top of the liquid. If something floats to the top, the last of the tank is too hot. A bumpy ride will actually make things settle more. Vibration is used to settle particles out of solution. I deal in very hot tank mixes containing esters and dispersible granules. I will mix only enough for the immediate area, never do I drive around with a partial load to the next lawn. Secondly, a cone nozzle on the end of a wand is not my first choice for safe applications to turf. It is hard to get an even deposit on the grass and the risk of drift is too great

greendoctor
07-04-2009, 06:46 PM
One more thing, if this was your last lawn. What was the temperature like? I do not spray lawns in the heat of the day. Especially if there is no irrigation. I am also very careful about the days after it has been raining for a while and the sun has come out. Grass tends to be much more sensitive due to the high humidity after a rain.

Whitey4
07-05-2009, 12:04 AM
Guys, thanks for the replies.

I applied on Monday, customer says the burn showed up on Thursday. This was not an ester mix. As I recall, I mixed this tank at home, drove about 3 miles and applied. I never eat or stop for lunch. Once I get going, that's it, I work till the day's work is done.

I am beside myself trying to figure out what went wrong. I also applied a light fert app at the same time on 12 of the 15 lawns, a granular app, but only this lawn got fried.

It got up to about 83 degrees the day I applied. That was followed by another warm sunny day.

This was one of my very best lawns. A showcase lawn, which got me two new customers after I turned it around from last year.

Without going into more details, this has been my worst week ever in this biz. I have been called in the evening for debris in a driveway after a torrential downpour... an act of God for cryin out loud. Just fired my next door neighbor because he got pissed when I told him to treat for fungus or risk losing parts of the lawn.... the guy went off on me. Accused me of trying to milk him for apps.... meanwhile red thread, dollar spot and brown patch are eating his lawn towards irreperable damage. The ironic thing is I have sprayed his lawn 5 times for weeds, at a loss in terms of just material costs to try to keep the wild violets from invading my turf!

I have really had enough of the whiners and complainers.... I go FAR beyond what any other LCO does, both in terms of apps and quality of service. Then I get this wierd burn problem. Talk about being disheartened.... I am really down roght now.

At least the customer with the burn is a great guy.... wanted to share repair costs, but I refused... if sod is needed, it's on my dime. The thing is I need to figure out why the burn happened.

GD, it has rained here almost every day. I have only watered my own lawn twice this year. The day I sprayed was hot and dry, top temp about 83 degrees, followed by two more hot dry days, but under 85 degrees. This was all amine, no esters....

I know it's best to mix on site, but even with a BP sprayer, it isn't always possible, especially when doing blanket apps along with spot srpaying.

Talk about being disheartened.... this week was so bad I wonder if the entire business is worth it.... getting up at 5:30, getting home at 6pm or later, no lunch, bustin balls for waht, 40k a year, if I don't include design, retaining wall and planting jobs? I need a pep talk fellas.

greendoctor
07-05-2009, 12:41 AM
Hot the days after a rain are when I tread carefully. At that time plant tissues are not hardened off from all of the rain and lack of sun the previous days. I even need to be careful about applying straight liquid fertilizers. Mixes that do not normally burn have blackened, then browned grass.

Good on you for firing the customer that did not want to have fungicides applied. What would have happened is the lawn would have died and you foot the bill for grass replacement. That is my policy as well. As soon as a customer refuses a necessary irrigation modification or treatment that is critical to the health of the landscape, FIRED. In my case, it is not the treatments that become the issue, but modifications to the irrigation system that become very critical. After all, it rains 20 inches or less in Honolulu. It is almost a desert here. So someone that balks when I tell them that the mediocre irrigation system that they probably paid too much for now needs about $1000 of work done on it, they are gone yesterday. I do leave well enough alone, I am not an irrigation perfectionist. But if a bad system is killing plants or grass, the prescription is written. If refused............FIRED

No lunch!, No lunch!. One of the reasons I became self employed was so that I could be sitting in front of a big juicy burger or a plate of grilled chicken in the middle of the day, instead of having to skip lunch or eat cold food that has been left unrefrigerated since the morning in the tropical heat. If I wanted to do this to myself, I would be someone's employee. I take care that I do not burn myself out. However do not get the idea that things go perfectly for me either. One of my clients has the mowing guy from hell. The lawn has gotten so thick and overgrown that I have had to scalp the zoysia around all of the sprinkler heads or the lawn would die. The entire lawn is too tall, it is supposed to be maintained no higher than 1 inch with a reel mower, but last time I checked, it was at 3+. I am in a quandry because I have previously warned the client about the need to properly mow this lawn. Right now it is a half acre of seriously overgrown zoysia. No matter what, it will be an expensive mess to fix.

Whitey4
07-05-2009, 01:45 AM
Hot the days after a rain are when I tread carefully. At that time plant tissues are not hardened off from all of the rain and lack of sun the previous days. I even need to be careful about applying straight liquid fertilizers. Mixes that do not normally burn have blackened, then browned grass.

Good on you for firing the customer that did not want to have fungicides applied. What would have happened is the lawn would have died and you foot the bill for grass replacement. That is my policy as well. As soon as a customer refuses a necessary irrigation modification or treatment that is critical to the health of the landscape, FIRED. In my case, it is not the treatments that become the issue, but modifications to the irrigation system that become very critical. After all, it rains 20 inches or less in Honolulu. It is almost a desert here. So someone that balks when I tell them that the mediocre irrigation system that they probably paid too much for now needs about $1000 of work done on it, they are gone yesterday. I do leave well enough alone, I am not an irrigation perfectionist. But if a bad system is killing plants or grass, the prescription is written. If refused............FIRED

No lunch!, No lunch!. One of the reasons I became self employed was so that I could be sitting in front of a big juicy burger or a plate of grilled chicken in the middle of the day, instead of having to skip lunch or eat cold food that has been left unrefrigerated since the morning in the tropical heat. If I wanted to do this to myself, I would be someone's employee. I take care that I do not burn myself out. However do not get the idea that things go perfectly for me either. One of my clients has the mowing guy from hell. The lawn has gotten so thick and overgrown that I have had to scalp the zoysia around all of the sprinkler heads or the lawn would die. The entire lawn is too tall, it is supposed to be maintained no higher than 1 inch with a reel mower, but last time I checked, it was at 3+. I am in a quandry because I have previously warned the client about the need to properly mow this lawn. Right now it is a half acre of seriously overgrown zoysia. No matter what, it will be an expensive mess to fix.


That was pretty much the pep talk I needed. I am hardly in a financial postition to be firing customers, but the disrespect and lack of trust from a next door neighbor, well, he can kiss me where the sun don't shine and the wind don't whine!

The rainfall here, incredible amounts, incredible frequency, made weed apps very difficult to do. Even on that day, last Monday when I sprayed, there was a threat of more passing thunderstorms. Very unusual weather pattern, more like Florida, when a storm can pop up at any time. Then, it was followed by 3 hot sunny days, but still, why just this one lawn?

Yep, no lunch, no breakfast either. Coffee in the am, then Power Aide Zero for electrolite replacement and fluid intake. I eat once a day. Up at 5:30, work all day, get home at 6 or later, feed the dog, take a shower, walk the dog, cook dinner, eat, relax for an hour, go to bed, and do it all over again.

This is pruning season here, and that is a boatload of work. No time whatsoever to stop and eat. Maxed out to the hilt. In another week, it will be so slow I'll take half days off.... but tell ya what.... at the age of 54, wearing 32 inch jeans at 5'8 and 150 lbs.... even when compared to a 32" waist size and at 190 lbs at the age of 18, I'm lookin like studly MacFarlan now. (just made that up) Maybe I should eat lunch, but frankly, I'm so ripped right now, my body looks like an 18 year old's. Far cry from the 230 lb fat boy I was about ten years ago.

But, back on topic.... I suppose there is no answer for this bizzarre burn occurence. It happened, I have no idea why, but it looks like it wil cost me a rental of a sod cutter and about 600 sq ft of sod. I think I might take some pics.... and post em. The burn pattern itself is wierd, since I did a blanket app on this property. Some areas were totally unaffected, other areas, fried.

greendoctor
07-05-2009, 02:48 AM
Whitey, a bad customer can easily put you in the hole far more than if you fire them. I know this by seeing and living the mistakes of others. When I was an employee, I saw all kinds of PITA customers and the A$$ kissing the company did for them. Needless to say, my former employers did not benefit from trying to keep such people. Not only did the PITA fire the company, word was probably spread about what incompetent chumps they were as well. Interestingly enough, many of those so called PITA are now my regular customers. They are not PITA because I give them first class service. All many of them wanted was a professional who knew turf and landscape management above and beyond a "landscaper". If I fire someone for not taking my recommendation, there are no stories that can be cooked up about me. It does come back to who knows their stuff, the customer or the LCO. If they were such "experts" I would not even be dealing with their lawn in the first place.

It is hard to say, but I would look at how the products were applied to this lawn. Unless that death mix you were applying went through a pressure regulated wand with a fan tip, anything is possible in the way of overdosages. Especially if the grass is not evenly fried. If I ever fry a lawn, it turns one shade of brown from end to end. The other thing I would look at is the soil under the burned areas. If the grass is on soil that is particularly well drained, there's your sign. That grass was probably heat and drought stressed a few days after the rain and the irrigation system was still off. Because of the oddball chemicals that I use on warm season turf, I do pay attention to soil texture and any variations on a given property. Some of the things I apply will kill the lawn and any trees in the area if the soil is different from the dense clay that is common in my area.

It is pruning season 12 months out of the year here. However, there is a change in the type of extra work that comes up in summer. Lots of people find out how bad their irrigation system is covering when it goes above 90F every day and it has not rained in 45 days. Not only do my regular clients ask for modifications to their system, but their friends and neighbors do as well. They do not want to call a "landscaper" or one of the irrigation installers in town because those are the very people that put in the sprinkler system that is not performing. Works fine for me. I have a kid's dream job, get to play in the sprinklers and no one can yell at me.

I am guilty of having a coffee breakfast as well. Should not do that, but I just cannot look at food in the morning. If I do eat, it becomes as if I had a boat anchor for breakfast and drag most of the day. On the other hand, at lunch, kindly have a cow walk through a fire and sit on my plate around 12:30-12-45 please. I have the opposite problem that many people do. At 18, I was about the size of a 9 year old boy. My last month being someone's employee in June 2007, people that knew me worried about my health because I looked wasted and withered. Now I am 5'6" 130 lbs on a good day. Look like a marathon runner even though I do not own a pair of running shoes and have not done anything like that since 9th grade gym class. Needless to say my time off work is spent resting. I also do not deprive myself of a good lunch on a regular basis. Sure there are days when I am too busy, but those are rare.

RigglePLC
07-05-2009, 11:35 AM
We need pictures! "Large areas of rye/KBG burned"--can you see the pattern? Was soil dry? The pattern of injury should tell you lots of information. Can you see where you moved the wand? Was the mixture hot where you started, but became less so as you worked toward the finish? It was the first job in the morning right? No coffee!! Did you add the chemicals twice? Add MSMA? And the second job was OK? When did you refill? Was second tank OK? Did you pump the handle too much--excess pressure? How much did you cover with the gallons you had? 4 gallons should cover about 8000 square feet. Is it actually a fert burn? Did the customer do this himself? (Why else would he offer to pay ?) Some backpack sprayers have hidden reservoirs of chemicals that do not pour out--was Roundup or Msma used in it the previous day? Was the color and odor of the spray mixture normal compared to next tank?

I know of an incident at TruGreen where the chemical was added to a half-full tank--and the guy was interupted by a phone call--and he forgot to add the water. I almost got fired.

Don't worry about it, Whitey. Chip happens--live and learn.

Whitey4
07-05-2009, 03:50 PM
I'll try and take some pics tomorrow.... I did not cut it as scheduled on Friday... I put down some Ironite and he watered it in. I'll go back and cut it tomorrow. Hoping the iron will help the areas that weren't so bad...

I used slightly less than a gallon. Used the remaining 3 gallons on 3 other properties, one a blanket app, two spot sprayings, no burn whatsoever on them. Freakin wierd....

foreplease
07-05-2009, 04:56 PM
Yes, photos please. Something is clearly different between lawns 1 and 2-4. Either something you have not told us or something owner #1 has not told you. I'm guessing owner #1 made some application you didn't know about.

greendoctor
07-05-2009, 04:58 PM
Some backpacks have a pressure chamber that is a bear to wash out. Also, it has been a long time practice of mine to fill small sprayers from a 2 gallon pail. That avoids contamination of any hoses you might be using and secondly it helps to make a uniform mix. I put in 1/4 the water in the tank, mix the products in a pail, then put more water into the pail to rinse it out into the tank. Just pouring concentrates into a small sprayer can lead to some interesting results due to the lack of positive agitation as would be found in a skid sprayer.

bug-guy
07-05-2009, 05:35 PM
i 've been following the tread alittle bit, whitey did you consider the owner or someone else may have done something before your app. i use to have a couple of cust. who wanted to do "something in between" i could always tell who they were because their garage looked like the chemical section at the big box store. i would always try to engage in conversation if they were in the garage and steer towards the chem, i always say why do you have all this, looking to see how old some of the stuff was. iuse to get alot of free chem from the ones who really didn't use them

greendoctor
07-05-2009, 05:46 PM
Good point. My terms of service with all of my clients are that I do not want to see anything other than water, a lawn mower or their feet on their lawn. If someone applies something themselves, they are a DIYer and my services are no longer needed. I once worked on a lawn that looked like it had Take All patch. That was actually damage caused by the homeowner spraying highly concentrated RoundUp in the lawn to kill sedges. Unfortunately, I was attached to a company at the time and they did not have the smarts to kick these idiots to the curb for doing that. The customer fired us later and I am sure spoke ill of us to everyone they knew. That is why I am absolute on this. I want former customers to bear all responsibility for such problems and not be able to stick it on me.

RigglePLC
07-05-2009, 07:18 PM
[QUOTE=greendoctor;3078169]Some backpacks have a pressure chamber that is a bear to wash out.

This is so true. Remember the internal air pressure chamber holds about a quart of whatever you used the last time. Almost impossible to drain it. Plus the hose holds about 4 ounces. Were you using MSMA last week? Perhaps the pressure chamber released contaminated fluid only when the pressure was over 20 lbs. Two pumps of the handle=OK. Four pumps of the handle=yesterday's product. Can anyone advise how to empty that air pressure chamber? What kind of backpack?
Maybe you need to graduate to a battery powered back pack for most of your aps. And use the old one for Roundup only.

You said you used just under a gallon. How many blanket sq feet did you cover?

You said there was no injury whatever on the second third and fourth properties you treated. A real puzzle. CSI. Keep studying that pattern--the evidence is there--you just have to imagine what happened.

greendoctor
07-05-2009, 07:28 PM
The last time I used a hand pumped backpack, washing it out involved circulating tank neutralizer from the wand back into the tank by pumping it for 5 minutes straight. Then running about 8 gallons of water through the whole thing through the wand. Pouring out contents and rinsing the tank does not pass when switching chemicals. On my engine drive backpacks, the drain plug is opened, then water washed through. Then the plug replaced and tank neutralizer circulated for 5 minutes. That then is emptied and rinsed out. Clean water is pumped through until clear. Of course, I have one unit for tree and shrub work, one for lawn herbicides and RoundUp usually goes through my B & G hand can.

Whitey4
07-08-2009, 11:06 PM
The sprayer is a 4 gallon Redmax... a private label custom made unit from an English outfit....

YES..... the previous mix was in fact Roundup Pro.

Now, I had done this before.... used RU in it, filled and rinsed it 4 times, then pumped it up and cleared the wand (I thought) for about 3 minutes.... then rinsed again, and pumped the wand again. This time, I skipped the second wand clearing.

I am starting to think that there somehow was some RU left in there.... as only the first lawn burnt. The burn was worst where I started.... and less severe thereafter. By the second lawn, the kill was excellent, and little to no turf stress a all. This is the only explanation that makes any sense to me at all, but I still have my doubts if this is the only factor involved.

This Saturday, I rent a sod cutter.... I intend to cut 2.2 k of dead and dying turf up, get it into a 5 yard dumpster, and go home and collapse. Sunday I will prep the soil, and Monday I lay 2.2k of top shelf KGB sod.

I hope I can pull this off. Gonna cost me about $1500 out of pocket and 3 days labor, and that's only if this 54 year old whacko can actually do all of this alone. :weightlifter:

If yer a church goer.... say a prayer for me this weekend! :help:

FdLLawnMan
07-08-2009, 11:37 PM
Why don't you just use a lawn renovator ans reseed with a good KBG mix. I know the customer won't have instant lawn but it sure will be a lot cheaper and in two months probably just as nice.

Also, spend the money and get a roundup only backpack. You will not regret it.

Whitey4
07-08-2009, 11:51 PM
Why don't you just use a lawn renovator ans reseed with a good KBG mix. I know the customer won't have instant lawn but it sure will be a lot cheaper and in two months probably just as nice.

Also, spend the money and get a roundup only backpack. You will not regret it.

This was a showcase lawn, and a custromer who hooked my up with 4 accounts on referrals. A hairdersser, and a perfectionist, this customer, as am I, I felt this was my only real option, both form a fix it "stand up" company perspective, and for my reputation. Seeding just isn't going to work here in July. Cool season grasses seeded in mid July here will wilt and fail in the summer heat and sun.

The idea that RU would ever get back into my weed control sprayer again... well, I didn't think I'd have to say that RU will NEVER get into this tank again! :hammerhead: I have learned my lesson, believe me!

foreplease
07-09-2009, 12:09 AM
Sorry to hear it. If I lived nearby I'd give you a hand (easy to say I suppose). FWIW: invest in some good knee pads, a couple half sheets of plywood to work off, a sod lifter gooseneck tool that goes for about $90 for getting out the odd pueces, and be sure to set your sod cutter depth to match the sod you have delivered.

My quick calculations tell me 2,200 sqare feet cut at 2" is going to take a dumpster of between 13 and 14 yards to fit it all in.

Whitey4
07-11-2009, 08:11 PM
I cut it as shallow as I could. Got most of it up, and tomorrow I will add some top soil, peat, starter fert and dethatch it. A ten yard dumpster was enough, probably because half of the turf was dead. I"ll just churn that dead root layer back into the soil when I do a deep dethatching.

Man, in spots the kill so so complete, I could not even roll it up after it was cut. I still don't understand what happened here, and probably never will. I've never even seen straight gly kill like this. My friend, been an LCO for 23 years said the same thing. Yet, from the same tank, the 3 lawns I did later are fine.

In any case.... I now know what it takes to do a sod renovation! :laugh:

RigglePLC
07-11-2009, 09:34 PM
You are tired. Skip the topsoil, peat, starter fert, and dethatch--lay the sod. Unless you have to do the above topsoil to level the area. Dead roots are not a problem.

Hopefully it is irrigated. Hopefully you got a warranty with the sod--no disease, not many grubs, no nutsedge, no quackgrass. What kind of cultivars are in the sod?

Everybody pay attention--learn from this mistake. Backpacks particularly. What a horrible experience. But customer satifaction is what pays your bills. No amount of money can erase a bad reputation. Good on you Whitey.

foreplease
07-12-2009, 12:01 AM
Yep and I would add that you have this much into it, since you are not certain about what happened it might pay to go another $10 and get a soil test on the off chance it was not your backpack. You're going to need to babysit this thing for a few weeks anyway.

I agree with Riggle. I am not a fan of peat anyway - or layers of anything - just loosen up what you have and lay the sod in that.

Whitey4
07-12-2009, 09:28 AM
The soil seems pretty hard. I own a dethatcher, so loosening it up won't cost me anything. I was thinking of throwing down just 3 bales of peat when I dethatch. I told the customer yesterday that I won't be bring in much, if any top soil. Dethatching will only take me about an hour to do. I have some starter fert on hand... I'd hate to do all this and cut any corners now, not at this point.

Yes, the lawn could use some leveling, but that would be an improvement, and after all, this is a damage repair job. I left it up to him if he wanted it leveled, it would mean he'd have to pay me for that service. I am already doing far more than most people would here... replacing areas of good sod just so it doesn't look like a patch job. I made very uniform cuts, so the leveling is what it was before any of this happened.

The sod...

http://www.deleasodfarms.com/sports-turf-yankees.html

Same stuff used to sod the new Yankee stadium. Disease resistant strain of KGB that does well in full sun. Delea is a company with an impeccable rep.

The customer told me "Any other landscaper would have fought me on this... and you anted up immediately. And I know it will be done right." He went on to tell my nephew what a great guy I am, and my nephew, who was there to help and refused pay, agreed. I am fortunate that this customer is also a good guy... no headaches at all. Smart guy too... think about it. "I know it will be done right..." now I have to live up to that expectation.

foreplease
07-12-2009, 09:50 AM
Nice site. Impressive process and sod. You might tell them their sod calcualtor does not work for 3-digit numbers though.

Soon this will be in your rearview mirror and you and the customer will be better off for it. Tough weekend though.

Whitey4
07-12-2009, 09:47 PM
Nice site. Impressive process and sod. You might tell them their sod calcualtor does not work for 3-digit numbers though.

Soon this will be in your rearview mirror and you and the customer will be better off for it. Tough weekend though.

Thanks fore and Riggs... but for a small operation like mine, this $1700 hit means more than 3 days of work, it's a financial hardship that will take a couple on months to recover from.

I used my dethatcher with delta bades to score the soil and get rid of clumps I missed with the sod cutter today. Just added 6 cubes of peat for some extra moisture retention... July is not the best time to lay sod here. Put some starter fert down, did what leveling I could and wait for my 2400 sq ft of sod for tomorrow. I hope I can get it all down tomorrow, and be done with this, but it may well stretch into Tuesday. Tomorrow I am on my own. Me and 2400 sq ft of sod. I just hope they get it there early... they will cut it around 3am to 5am, load it, and deliver.

Customer has been great... fed me a burger and a couple of brews today while I finished up the soil prep, and OK'd the pallets to be placed in the driveway. :irishflag:

Whitey4
07-13-2009, 10:57 PM
Just an update for those that might be interested...

Got there at 7am, did some more prep work till the sod arrived at 10:15. took a half hour for lunch, a half hour for dinner and to feed the dog, worked till 9pm and got 2k of sod laid, solo. Have to finish it up tomorrow, all perimeter pieces that have to be cut. Front lawn is done, customer very happy.

Now, a shower, bed, get there at sunrise, work till it's done, and go mow my regular Tuesday route. :weightlifter:

Don't get cute with mixes.... that is my hard earned lesson. Even though 14 out of 15 lawns were fine.... that 15th one was a killer.

turf hokie
07-13-2009, 11:12 PM
J

Don't get cute with mixes.... that is my hard earned lesson. Even though 14 out of 15 lawns were fine.... that 15th one was a killer.

Or if you must get cute, get cute in the privacy of your own lawn.

Whitey4
07-14-2009, 03:38 PM
Or if you must get cute, get cute in the privacy of your own lawn.

Funny thing, sort of, was that I did test this mix in my own yard. Results were the same here as they were on 14 other properties. Good one app kill, no burn. One lawn fried.

Whitey4
07-14-2009, 08:20 PM
Did 14 hours yesterday, less a few breaks, and finished up today. Five more hours including cleanup. I've never ben so tired. Nightmare in the rear view mirror. I could barely walk at 1:30pm today. Took the afternoon off, and will have to do my Tues and Wed mowing accounts tomorrow. Just could not move after this job was done. I'll be in bed by 8pm.... and dream of weed free lawns, that aren't burnt. :nono:

Think Green
07-14-2009, 08:56 PM
Whitey,
Man, I haven't been keeping up with this thread because, it looks like the damage has been done. For the life of me, I don't understand what happened that caused the death of that lawn unless you were using the wrong type of Triclopyr. I researched some areas and found this information, and because of the factiods in this site, I will not use your product for fear of what it causes. I am in the south but I still will not use this stuff in any extreme situation.

The site is:
www.pesticide.org/triclopyr.pdf

Garlon, is a right of way herbicide and a pasture herbicide.

americanlawn
07-14-2009, 09:49 PM
Whitey - hope you get caught up & get some rest. I loaned a backpack sprayer to one of my guys a few years back. It origianlly had Chaser herbicide in it. So Monday morning I go out & use it on a 4000 s/f lawn cuz it was weedy. Customer called in a couple weeks later saying his lawn is dead. Turns out, my employee used my backpack to spray Roundup! The S.O.B. never told me! We turned it into our insurance company, and the customer got a new lawn (improved cultivars of KBG). Even though we took care of this customer, her never signed up again.

IMO 8% Triclopyr is not enough. You need a product that contains twice that. Chaser (ester) contains 16.5 % Try, and Chaser 2 (amine) contains 15.2 % Try. (both products are made by Loveland). 1.5 ounces per K fries difficult weeds. If you cut this rate in half, it just is not enough to kill ground ivy, etc.

Whitey4
07-15-2009, 10:54 AM
Whitey - hope you get caught up & get some rest. I loaned a backpack sprayer to one of my guys a few years back. It origianlly had Chaser herbicide in it. So Monday morning I go out & use it on a 4000 s/f lawn cuz it was weedy. Customer called in a couple weeks later saying his lawn is dead. Turns out, my employee used my backpack to spray Roundup! The S.O.B. never told me! We turned it into our insurance company, and the customer got a new lawn (improved cultivars of KBG). Even though we took care of this customer, her never signed up again.

IMO 8% Triclopyr is not enough. You need a product that contains twice that. Chaser (ester) contains 16.5 % Try, and Chaser 2 (amine) contains 15.2 % Try. (both products are made by Loveland). 1.5 ounces per K fries difficult weeds. If you cut this rate in half, it just is not enough to kill ground ivy, etc.

Larry, I thought about using my insurance, but was afraid they would drop me or double my rates. Getting insurance here is not easy in this business... for instance, State Farm flat out won't insure landscapers here. So, I'm about 1700 bucks in the hole for this.

I have never, ever been so tired. I swapped mower blades and put the mulching plate on just so I can do two days worth of mowing today. No bagging will save time. Seriously, I have never been so wiped out. Still, it hurts just to walk. I will never go into the sod reno biz.

As for this customer.... they fed me, kept me in iced tea and even wanted to help hump sod into the backyard. I even had a couple of beers with them on Sunday after I finished the soil prep.

There is actually, bizarrely enough, a silver lining here. This is my hairdresser, and she got me several accounts on referrals. I had turned her lawn around in 8 months to near perfection before this. I figured this would kill my reputation, but to my surprise, it has helped instead. When I first saw the damage, I told them I was putting sod in he budget, no denials, owned up and delivered with no debates.

Now I have several more accounts I need to quote, all because of comments like "You are lucky you had an honest landscaper..." sort of stuff. Rather than a backlash, it has gained me respect. I also think it's in part, because I did the sodding myself, and worked beyond darkness, I suppose people now know I AM honest and dedicated.

A wise man once told me there are no problems, just opportunities. Any problem is a chance to surpass a customer's expectations and turn a bad situation into a positive one, and that is what ended up happening here. I think it made a difference that I did the work and picked up the costs personally, rather than use insurance and a contractor. I wanted to know the install would be as near perfect as possible.

When life hands you a lemon, make lemonade.

TG, while there is some interesting info there, it comes from a source that is very anti-chemical anything biased. All chemicals carry some level of potential risk and damage... the thing is, I used something that was labeled to apply one way, and attempted to extrapolate using that AI according to another labeled product that used the same AI. That in fact, is a violation of law. I should have known better. It worked on 15 out of 16 properties. I have learned my lesson the hard way.... the label IS the law!

Measure a man not when he is at the peak of his success, but rather when he faces adversity. I think I measured up pretty well here.

Well, enough stalling.... I have a lot of mowing to go do, and it's time I got at it.

americanlawn
07-15-2009, 08:23 PM
Those are wise words my friend. It's odd that "luck" is usually caused by hard work. :laugh:

We finally found a good insurance company a few years ago. We saved several thousands of dollars compared to who we had. They even bring us a rebate check every spring (usually $1500 - $2500). Our deduct able is $500 per ocurrance for liability insurance. BTW it's Krist Insurance out of West Des Moines. They cover all of our business needs as well as our personal stuff.

Whitey - I hope the grass starts slowing down soon. It's been growing fast (here) since April. Local mowing outfits cannot keep up, but I guess that's better than a drought. Ever think about hiring part-time help? We're hoping for less rain & humidity cuz the grass does not cut as well when it's "juicy". Latest long term weather forecast looks promising, but we'll see. We got 2 1/2 inch hail last night - put a dent in my Avalanche....not happy.

Take care buddy, Larry

Whitey4
07-15-2009, 09:05 PM
Those are wise words my friend. It's odd that "luck" is usually caused by hard work. :laugh:

We finally found a good insurance company a few years ago. We saved several thousands of dollars compared to who we had. They even bring us a rebate check every spring (usually $1500 - $2500). Our deduct able is $500 per ocurrance for liability insurance. BTW it's Krist Insurance out of West Des Moines. They cover all of our business needs as well as our personal stuff.

Whitey - I hope the grass starts slowing down soon. It's been growing fast (here) since April. Local mowing outfits cannot keep up, but I guess that's better than a drought. Ever think about hiring part-time help? We're hoping for less rain & humidity cuz the grass does not cut as well when it's "juicy". Latest long term weather forecast looks promising, but we'll see. We got 2 1/2 inch hail last night - put a dent in my Avalanche....not happy.

Take care buddy, Larry

My deductable is also 500.... so doing it myself for 1700 and not using my insurance would have saved me 1200, but if I went with a claim, I would have subbed it out. My main concern was getting dropped or having my 1200 premium doubled. Those numbers convinced me to eat it and do the job myself.

I started mulching today, as the rain has slowed here and so has the top growth. Not bagging saves an incredible amount of time. I'll get caught up tomorrow or perhaps Friday.

Part timer.... no can do, not as a DBA and not insured for it. Workman's comp insurance is insanely expensive here. I did hire a helper for this one job, one day, but I'm not legal to do so.

2 n a half inch hail? That is crazy. I traveled to Munich many years ago, and about 6 months after the event, still many cars had serious dents and dings from a hail storm. They looked like a swarm of leprechauns had attacked with ball peen hammers. Every windshiled in the city was broken on vehicles not under cover, so I was told.

americanlawn
07-15-2009, 09:23 PM
Sounds like New York has too many restrictions every way you turn. Upstate New York looks just like my state (Iowa). Lots of fine folks. Bought a 1970 Challenger R/T in LeRoy, NY back in '99.

Restrictions are fairly lax here in "corn country" (Iowa) - probably cuz of the AG pressure in Congress.

You may want to shop around regarding insurance companies. I hear they're hungry for business since Osama got in office. :laugh:

One trillion dollar deficit now. Biggest in history.

causalitist
07-20-2009, 04:20 PM
Label says 1 oz per gallon per 200 square feet, even when using a backpack! One gallon for every 200 sq feet? Does that mean spraying far beyond run off, or what? How the heck will spraying that volume result in uptake by the leaves of the weeds? Is this stuff supposed to be soil drenched?

I've tried to Google the mode of this herbicide, but have come up empty. The label does mention that mowing should be delayed, and 24 hours of no irrigation is stated.

So, if it penetrates the foliage, why does it call for 1 gallon per 200 sq feet? :confused:

I spray 16% triclopyr +2,4-d ester .. 0.9 oz/1000 sq ft... in 0.2 gallons water.

americanlawn
07-20-2009, 08:09 PM
Same here. We mix up 50 gallons at a time (3 ounces per gallon of water). Then we fill up a bunch of 2 1/2 gallon jugs (empty Chaser jugs with the label still attached). This way we can quickly pour it into our Shurflo SRS backpack sprayers as needed. Add a little LI-700, and you have a very effective product for spot spraying.

For new/weedy lawns, we "tank mix" Chaser ester w/liquid fert and spray it out of the hose. In this case, we do not add any surfactant cuz the liquid fert acts as one.

causalitist
07-20-2009, 10:22 PM
Same here. We mix up 50 gallons at a time (3 ounces per gallon of water). Then we fill up a bunch of 2 1/2 gallon jugs (empty Chaser jugs with the label still attached). This way we can quickly pour it into our Shurflo SRS backpack sprayers as needed. Add a little LI-700, and you have a very effective product for spot spraying.

For new/weedy lawns, we "tank mix" Chaser ester w/liquid fert and spray it out of the hose. In this case, we do not add any surfactant cuz the liquid fert acts as one.

yep, chaser ester. i noticed broadcasting with LI700 is pretty harsh.

for spot spraying, the label says to use 0.33-0.66 oz/gal for 1k sqrft
but around an ounce for broadcast.
all other products i have seen use the same % and volume for both.
never understood why chaser says ~1 oz/M broadcast but then only 0.6oz for spot.
you use 3 oz?? you obviously dont put much down.. i found 0.66oz and spraying up until runoff to be moderately effective, but 1 oz caused turf injury.

this stuff has been great for broadcast, but i just cant get spot spraying worked out.
how do you use 3oz/gal? i'd appriciate help figuring out the spot spraying, im about ready to go back to speedzone, but i have soo much chaser on hand.

RigglePLC
07-21-2009, 09:00 AM
With hand sprayer, spray cement with one gallon water. Determine how many sqft one gallon covers. If it covers 2000 sqft. Add weed killer for 2000 sqft per gallon. Do not overspray individual weeds till run off. Spray the same as on the cement.

causalitist
07-21-2009, 03:58 PM
With hand sprayer, spray cement with one gallon water. Determine how many sqft one gallon covers. If it covers 2000 sqft. Add weed killer for 2000 sqft per gallon. Do not overspray individual weeds till run off. Spray the same as on the cement.

thats my problem, when i spot spray, im actually spot spraying.. meaning im only spraying one weed. at max areas 1'x1'. i know what you mean, but thats sort of like you have this exact pace you walk, exact swath you move the wand back and forth ect..and its mixed based on that.... but thats like a mini broadcast spray; what about spraying one weed; that is 6" from a landscape bush? thats why i want to figure it out the concentration where i can "cover the weed leaf surface" until just before runoff.
kinda hard to callibrate based on 1000sqrft when your spraying one dandelion.


i suppose i could start spraying as im walking up to the weed, and then past it, at the pace calculated on cancrete, but these weeds are typically the ones very close to landscape bushes(missed by broadcast), or the lawn is too stressed and thats why im spot spraying; in either case that method doesnt work, and i must point at the weed and spray; presumably something fairly dilute.

nik
07-21-2009, 06:23 PM
Interesting thread. Thanks for sharing your trials and travails over what happened. As for the site is: www.pesticide.org.

Be aware that group that runs that site has been trying to eliminate all pesticide use in Oregon and Washington for years. Northwest Coalition for Alternatives to Pesticides and are as anti-chemical as they come.