30'x16' flower beds,odd shaped

[red green]

l'm running into a lot odd of shaped beds .whats the best design using option 1- 18'riser with adj. spray,18"riser with mp rotor,12"spray with adj. spray,12" spray with mp rotor,micro system.good flow,money not a issue.
cheers red

[Az Gardener]

Overhead sprays are the last method I would use for flower beds. I would use 1/2" subsurface drip like Netafim or Toro DL 2000 as a first choice or spider bubblers as a second option.

Flowers are kinda my thing. I teach our state L/S certification class on flowers for the last 13 years. I also proctor the test. My avg. client spends over 1,000 on seasonal color twice a year. We have winter and summer annuals. A few spend over 3-K. We plant everything from seeds and bulbs to 3 and 5 gallon flowers and everything in between.

[Mike Leary]

In our cool NW climate without much evaporation, sprays, Stream-Rotors and MP Rotators have done well. Make sure the layout is tight so you don't have blockage as the plants mature.

[esnipe8]

I second the 1/2 netafim or dl2000.

[red green]

my customers are not willing to pay that much for up keep.l find my customers do there own maintenance and are hard on micro systems.18' fixed riser or 12"spray riser?'

[Mike Leary]

My normal bed spacing is on five foot centers. I use RB 1812 SAM heads with WeatherMatic 5503 brass nozzles. The inner and rear load get a 12"copper riser with a W*M 105 full circle and a 5500 on the rear load depending on angle.I use the Hunter low-drain check valve on the risers. Though it may seem overkill,today I was at a site we did fifteen years ago; the plants were mature, you could not even see the heads, no sign of stress; everyone happy. :clapping:

[Kiril]

In our cool NW climate without much evaporation, sprays, Stream-Rotors and MP Rotators have done well. Make sure the layout is tight so you don't have blockage as the plants mature.

You will always have blockage as the plants mature unless you keep raising the height of the sprinkler or you only have plants that do not outgrow the sprinkler. Generally speaking, doesn't matter how close you space them, your DU and AE will stink.

Surface or subsurface drip is the way to go.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

my customers are not willing to pay that much for up keep.l find my customers do there own maintenance and are hard on micro systems.18' fixed riser or 12"spray riser?'

I repeat his point.

[Kiril]

I repeat his point.

And I will repeat the simple golden rule .... find the lines before you dig. It is not like miles of spaghetti tubing which are very prone to damage. All it takes is going through the line once and they will learn. I will even repair the first HO break at no cost and lecture them again on the golden rule.

Just like you say about class pipe breaks with a shovel ... operator error. Irrigation efficiency should not be sacrificed because people are too lazy to find the lines.

[Wet_Boots]

Another idea for beds surrounded by lawn is to spray into the beds from outside the beds.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Another idea for beds surrounded by lawn is to spray into the beds from outside the beds.

Sort of what I did. Move the heads far enough out they get over all the bed vegetation. Or put 12" popups outside the bed and you don't have to go that far out.

Limit to beds it will work on. House perimeter beds that come 8' out or so it works great. Beds that come 20' out not so good.

[DanaMac]

For beds surrounding the house, I always asked the owners to install tall plants along the house, and shorter along the edge by the grass. Then spray in and the shorter ones shouldn't interfere.

I would prefer to spray from the house out, but it looks funny to have taller plants along the edge, and shorter along the house.

[Wet_Boots]

Backflow considerations also play into this, when keeping all the heads in the lawn allows for an unobtrusive PVB placement.

[Kiril]

Another idea for beds surrounded by lawn is to spray into the beds from outside the beds.

Sort of what I did. Move the heads far enough out they get over all the bed vegetation. Or put 12" popups outside the bed and you don't have to go that far out.

Limit to beds it will work on. House perimeter beds that come 8' out or so it works great. Beds that come 20' out not so good.

One word ....... HYDROZONE!

Geez, I expect more from professionals.

You both might have a case if you have beds with similar water requirements as turf (like annuals), and perhaps that will work fine, but it IS NOT the way to design a system.

Perhaps as a cheap/quick fix for a poorly designed system you can direct lawn sprinklers to cover those areas, but to design a system like that on purpose is nothing short of hack.

[Wet_Boots]

Hey, you can sell all the Lambourghinis you want, but some folks only want a Chevy to make a milk run.

[DanaMac]

Hey, you can sell all the Lambourghinis you want, but some folks only want a Chevy to make a milk run.

Bingo!! Glad someone else understands this analogy.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Drip hasn't been around forever. There were effective methods to handle these situations prior to drip that aren't a big drop off. A busted drip line running in the bed for 6 months kinda sucks.

[Kiril]

Hey, you can sell all the Lambourghinis you want, but some folks only want a Chevy to make a milk run.

That is fine ... and I leave those systems to hacks. I will not intentionally design a system I know is inefficient. There is a line I will not cross and that is it, and could care less how much work I lose because of it. Either the land owner is willing to fork out for a properly designed system or they are free to hire the local hack to put in a junk system. We all know what will happen in 3-5 years with systems like that.

Never enough money to do the job right the first time, but always enough money to fix it every year due to poor design and substandard products. :hammerhead:

[Kiril]

Drip hasn't been around forever. There were effective methods to handle these situations prior to drip that aren't a big drop off. A busted drip line running in the bed for 6 months kinda sucks.

And there are more effective ways to handle it now.
This argument has no merit since we do not live in the past.

Also, a cracked riser running in a bed for 6 months also sucks.

Or a sprinkler totally overgrown by plants dumping all of its water in a 1 foot area or less instead of the intended radius sucks as well.

[Wet_Boots]

That is fine ... and I leave those systems to hacks. I will not intentionally design a system I know is inefficient. There is a line I will not cross and that is it, and could care less how much work I lose because of it. Either the land owner is willing to fork out for a properly designed system or they are free to hire the local hack to put in a junk system. We all know what will happen in 3-5 years with systems like that.

Never enough money to do the job right the first time, but always enough money to fix it every year due to poor design and substandard products. :hammerhead:So, would you pay a hundred thousand dollars for a work truck that gets 50 mpg?

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

::::::bailing conversation::::::::

::::::::::think remotes only Peter::::::::::::

[Kiril]

So, would you pay a hundred thousand dollars for a work truck that gets 50 mpg?

Why not? If I'm already going to spend 60K for a truck that gets 20 mpg at best, why not fork out a extra 40K for a truck I can get more than double the gas mileage? Fuel is not cheap you know.

[Wet_Boots]

I'm glad you enrich the local dealerships, since many of the hackitudes get by with $20K vehicles.

There's usually a trade-off somewhere. A trained agronomist could outperform any controller in existence, but economics favor the controller.

[Kiril]

::::::bailing conversation::::::::

Sorry Pete if my position offends you or anyone else. Poorly designed and managed irrigation systems that waste huge amounts potable water, an extremely valuable and limited natural resource, really chaps my ass. There is absolutely no excuse for it! If you can't afford to do it right, then maybe people should rethink their high input landscapes that require irrigation in the first place. :realmad::wall

[Kiril]

There's usually a trade-off somewhere. A trained agronomist could outperform any controller in existence, but economics favor the controller.

Huh? A controller is a means to automate irrigation, nothing more, nothing less. Boots, you are the king of inane statements.

I will repeat myself. If you can't afford a properly designed irrigation system, then you need to rethink your landscape.

[Wet_Boots]

You can repeat yourself to the end of time, and remain irrelevant. People will still buy a Chevy to make milk runs. It is no dishonor to sell a Chevy. Just make it a reliable Chevy.

[DanaMac]

Well I guess this "hack" will continue to lead a pretty good life and provide a service the customers call for. :rolleyes:

[AI Inc]

Lets not forget one simple thing here. We are watering the lawn , sometimes the shrubs , thats it. One can design the most awesome system known to man , but 9 out of 10 will refuse to pay for it.

[DanaMac]

Over design, over engineer, over charge, and we'll be working at McDonald's. Gotta have a happy medium.

[Kiril]

Just make it a reliable Chevy.

Which is EXACTLY my point!

I'm not suggesting a Calsense controller with a Campbell weather station and multiple soil moisture sensors per hydrozone. How about just logical and effective irrigation design and management that makes the most efficient use of our potable water resources? Is this such a hard concept for you to grasp or are you just pulling your usual bullshit?

Really dude, we are talking about sprays vs. drip in planting beds here. Drip is BY FAR the most efficient way to water planting beds, and I have NEVER seen an efficient spray system in a fully mature planting bed with plants of variable heights. This is especially true with odd shape beds, and even more true with odd shaped beds surrounded by hardscape.

Furthermore I didn't even mention damage to structures from spray irrigation which can easily cost thousands if not tens of thousands to repair. People have enough money for that as well, but can't afford a properly designed irrigation system? To be perfectly honest, I don't think I have ever seen a spray system used in beds next to a building that hasn't caused some type damage to the structure.

So you argue for what? An installation savings of a couple hundred bucks per zone? Get real Boots.

[Kiril]

Over design, over engineer, over charge, and we'll be working at McDonald's. Gotta have a happy medium.

Dana, given how potable water resources are dwindling/sold off, especially in your state, you are going to be working at McDonald's eventually anyhow. :laugh:

[DanaMac]

Dana, given how potable water resources are dwindling/sold off, especially in your state, you are going to be working at McDonald's eventually anyhow. :laugh:

I'm holding out for an offer from Quiznos :)

[Kiril]

I'm holding out for an offer from Quiznos :)

They do have good subs. ;)

[DanaMac]

They do have good subs. ;)

Yeah, but they might not be the most efficient at making them either :laugh: and I'll still be happy with it. hee hee hee

[Kiril]

Yeah, but they might not be the most efficient at making them either :laugh: and I'll still be happy with it. hee hee hee

I wouldn't know, only eaten there once, but it was an OK sub given it is a chain.

[Wet_Boots]

Which is EXACTLY my point!

I'm not suggesting a Calsense controller with a Campbell weather station and multiple soil moisture sensors per hydrozone. How about just logical and effective irrigation design and management that makes the most efficient use of our potable water resources? Is this such a hard concept for you to grasp or are you just pulling your usual bullshit?

Really dude, we are talking about sprays vs. drip in planting beds here. Drip is BY FAR the most efficient way to water planting beds, and I have NEVER seen an efficient spray system in a fully mature planting bed with plants of variable heights. This is especially true with odd shape beds, and even more true with odd shaped beds surrounded by hardscape.

Furthermore I didn't even mention damage to structures from spray irrigation which can easily cost thousands if not tens of thousands to repair. People have enough money for that as well, but can't afford a properly designed irrigation system? To be perfectly honest, I don't think I have ever seen a spray system used in beds next to a building that hasn't caused some type damage to the structure.

So you argue for what? An installation savings of a couple hundred bucks per zone? Get real Boots.most efficient use at what cost? For you, it could be unlimited cost, so long as some 'efficiency threshold' is met. The rest of the public can accept less efficiency. I may never again cover a 3/4-acre lawn with only 20 artfully-placed rotors, but the layout has performed for decades without complaints about coverage.

[Kiril]

most efficient use at what cost? For you, it could be unlimited cost, so long as some 'efficiency threshold' is met.

Drip vs. spray .... not much additional cost at all, especially given more efficient water use.

The rest of the public can accept less efficiency.

Yup, as long as people like you tell them they can. Then the gov't will step in and take their precious irrigation water because no one thought it might be a good idea to conserve it.

I may never again cover a 3/4-acre lawn with only 20 artfully-placed rotors, but the layout has performed for decades without complaints about coverage.

.... or regard for water use.

[Wet_Boots]

Drip? Spray? Screw the beds, if they are established shrubs with deep roots. This ain't California.

And what's with your slavish idolatry of Distribution Uniformity? You seem to believe that water is incapable of horizontal movement in soil.

Every system I install for a lawn with trees in it will be inefficient by your lofty standards. But the systems will still be installed.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Landscape and water usage

No additional water needed BEST
Occasional watering needed in times of severe drought GREAT
An irrigation system that uses minimal resources like CL 200 vs Sch 40 to accomplish the job. GREAT
An irrigation system that balances watering efficiency with durability GREAT
A contractor that can judge when drip vs overhead spray is the best solution for long term water savings when service is considered GREAT

[Mike Leary]

Forty posts later we are still where we started, and the quibble twins have dominated the thread, as usual.:dizzy:

[Wet_Boots]

Forty posts later we are still where we started, and the quibble twins have dominated the thread, as usual.:dizzy:Aren't there equipment lists out there for you to be taking exception to? :hammerhead:

[Mike Leary]

Aren't there equipment lists out there for you to be taking exception to? :hammerhead:

I think the new medication is working.

[Az Gardener]

And I will repeat the simple golden rule .... find the lines before you dig. It is not like miles of spaghetti tubing which are very prone to damage. All it takes is going through the line once and they will learn. I will even repair the first HO break at no cost and lecture them again on the golden rule.

Just like you say about class pipe breaks with a shovel ... operator error. Irrigation efficiency should not be sacrificed because people are too lazy to find the lines.

I always design the layout so we can flip the rows over to the turf, sidewalk or whatever, get it out of the way so we can prep the bed. Turn the bed, add our amendments, then flop the poly back onto the bed. Then just stretch out the lines and mound in a few spots to hold it in place and then plant. The lines are visible and as the guys are planting they work the poly under the surface.

Piece of cake, beats replacing clogged nozzles or watering 3 times longer than you need to get the water to the soil or dealing with fungus problems because you have all the moisture hung up in the foliage. That all sounds like much more maintenance than doing sub surface drip. I have a netafim system in a turf area that has not required the first bit of maint in 10 years. I can't count how much time I have spent on the rest of the lawn at that home checking and replacing nozzles over the years.

I think if you are concerned about maintenance its because you have not dealt with subsurface drip or you employ idiots. Could be both.

[Mike Leary]

Could be both.

I never thought of it that way, thanks.

[dlee1996]

Do it right and drip it the first time.

[Wet_Boots]

Drip is for drips :hammerhead:

[Kiril]

Forty posts later we are still where we started, and the quibble twins have dominated the thread, as usual.:dizzy:

The only reason Boots takes issue with what I am saying is because he knows I am right, and it bugs the shiit out of him.

Let him pretend his idea of irrigation is adequate in todays world. The rest of us know better.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Boots has very low standards for human behavior and performance.
It's sad really sad........

[esnipe8]

The only reason Boots takes issue with what I am saying is because he knows I am right, and it bugs the shiit out of him.

Let him pretend his idea of irrigation is adequate in todays world. The rest of us know better.

Us zone 9 guys love us some drip:clapping:

[Wet_Boots]

Meanwhile, us Zone Nine From Outer Space guys want all the pipe pulled by a plow.

[red green]

thanks for all the input.l think l will have to have another look at micro systems does anyone know of a good web site or book l can read.Don,t worry boots l'm not totally convinced yet.
cheers red

[Kiril]

thanks for all the input.l think l will have to have another look at micro systems does anyone know of a good web site or book l can read.Don,t worry boots l'm not totally convinced yet.
cheers red

Here is a good place to start.

http://www.netafimusa.net/index-lnd-down-prod-dripperline.php

If you want peer reviewed research, I can provide that as well.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Also look at microspray. I prefer that to drip in mass plantings. Drip in sparse plantings. Just my approach ain't gonna argue about it.

[esnipe8]

Here is a good place to start.

http://www.netafimusa.net/index-lnd-down-prod-dripperline.php

If you want peer reviewed research, I can provide that as well.

The only reason I like/use netafim is because it is made in Fresno! :clapping:

Kidding, that stuff, and Dl2000 is sweet!

[Mike Leary]

If you want peer reviewed research, I can provide that as well.

Can't wait.

[Kiril]

Can't wait.

Sure you can, cause you wouldn't read it anyhow.

[Mike Leary]

Sure you can, cause you wouldn't read it anyhow.

I would with my Ray-Bans on, in a coal mine. :p

[Wet_Boots]

Without even reading it, I can tell that it's incredibly boring

http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:zw92hTfxq7UkzM:http://www.aeropause.com/wordpress/archives/images/2009/05/johnny-carson-as-karnak.jpg