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irrigation lemieux
06-30-2009, 06:56 PM
Ive got a 12 gauge ,135 feet of wire to the center of my 8 fixture with 20 watts at the 18 volt tap.there is a kischler path light at the end who had blown two times.should i go to the 17 tap so that lamps doesnt blow.

Any idea...........

TXNSLighting
06-30-2009, 07:00 PM
did you hub this or daisy chain? If you daisy chained then thats your problem..What are you volting at the fixtures?

irrigation lemieux
06-30-2009, 07:20 PM
We hub this section.i did went to the job site,i just want some good leed before getting there.what is the daisy chain....

TXNSLighting
06-30-2009, 08:25 PM
the daisy chain is where you run your wire and just start attaching fixtures to it in a row. Since its a hub you should have consistent voltage. But once again check the voltage on it. The rest of your post is hard to understand.

Lite4
06-30-2009, 08:29 PM
Never mix MRs with T-3s on the same hub.

Let There Be Light
06-30-2009, 09:08 PM
Ive got a 12 gauge ,135 feet of wire to the center of my 8 fixture with 20 watts at the 18 volt tap.there is a kischler path light at the end who had blown two times.should i go to the 17 tap so that lamps doesnt blow.

Any idea...........

I see this all the time here in AZ. I would have run two 12 gauge cables, center fed and put 4 fixtures per cable and use a 12 volt transformer-OR-because clients like to ad, run 2 lines of 10 gauge, which would give you room for some additional fixtures down the road. Good luck

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
06-30-2009, 11:14 PM
Never mix MRs with T-3s on the same hub.

Hey Tim, I have never heard this before... what is your rationale? Never having had a problem with mixing MR16 and T3s on the same circuit I just don't see what the issue would be.

Please illuminate us!

David Gretzmier
06-30-2009, 11:38 PM
at 160 watts you are off the charts as far as a reccomended load for a single 12 guage at 135 feet.I agree that you should have used 2 10's. at that load, wire and distance my charts indicate a 5 volt drop, and you are on the 18, so if your trans is feeding 18 volts, maybe you are hot ( 11.8 volts plus ) at some fixtures. even when using the hub method, it is not unusual to have variation in voltage at each fixture, as it is impossible to make each wire length the same. This seems to be more true on higher taps and greater distances from the trans itself.

I too have heard the don't mix bulbs thing, but I tend to just try and make the g4 bulbs on the 10.5-11.3 range as they just can't seem to last a year at my preferred 11.2-11.6 range of mr-16's. the larger G6's seem to have no problems with normal mr-16 voltage ranges.

S&MLL
07-01-2009, 12:29 AM
t-3 wedge base bulbs suck. Maybe worst bulb ever made...Cheep crap.


Anyway as far as mixing bulbs on a hub have not heard a problem yet.

As far as your problem the t-3 is blowing first because mr-16s can handle higher voltage for longer. At 12.5 volts you will still get 3k hours. at 12.5 volts a t-3 will last MAYBE 100 hours.

Everyone should use the s-8 wedge base. Kichler uses it on 80 percent of pathlights and I think Cast does as well.

Lite4
07-01-2009, 01:31 AM
Hey Tim, I have never heard this before... what is your rationale? Never having had a problem with mixing MR16 and T3s on the same circuit I just don't see what the issue would be.

Please illuminate us!

I never mix lamps with differing life spans and also the fact that my pars and MRs run good in the mid 11s where a t-3 will have a dramaticly shortened life span. T-3 halogens seem to maintain the best longevity running at around 10.7-11.2 volts. Just something I have observed over the years. I just make it my own personal rule now. You guys can do whatever you like though obviously.

JoeyD
07-01-2009, 02:43 PM
ok, so 160w at 135 ft is totally doable on 12/2 cable, you are not overloading the wire and you should have no problems properly volting your fixtures especially via a hub......By my calculations and by my VD chart you should require the 17 or 18 v. tap. What is your voltage at the Hub and what is the distance on your wire leads form Hub to fixture. You should have no problems here. It may be an incadescent lamp that is causing you this problem or something to do with wiring..........but you shouldnt have an issue getting this corrected......

you can go 200ft, power up 180w on 12.2 cable and it would require the 22v tap....you can do a lot with 12 guage before needing to go to more expensive cable or pulling multiple runs.

Pro-Scapes
07-01-2009, 03:58 PM
I would consider that to be underwired but that aside for a different discussion. You need to check your voltage under load at the fixture. If you dont have a pigtail tester check it at the hub so long as all fixtures are about the same distance you should be fine in 11.7 to 12v range AT THE HUB. Any higher your probably driving that lamp a bit hot.

Now lets think outside the box and since its only a singular fixture popping on the run I am willing to bank the voltage is pretty close. Is there a possibility the irrigation is hitting it when the lamp is on ? Are you touching the lamp with your bare hands and getting oil on it when you install it ? Are you buying a good quality lamp ? I have several of these lamps at my house 2 yrs old running at 11.3v mol.

Lamp life is not always voltage related. Cast paths are notorious for eating lamps in irrigated yards if someone screws with sprinkler timing.

David Gretzmier
07-02-2009, 12:27 AM
Joey, I really don't agree you can run a 12 guage wire that far with that much load. It is way outside of every chart I have seen, and Amp wise that wire will be very hot to the touch. You are also eating twice the transformer load just to lose it in wire resistance. That's the heat you feel when you touch the wire. an extra 135 feet of wire, or heavier guage wire, is way cheaper than the load you are giving up on a trans. doing heavier loads and higher taps is also the recipe for blowing all bulbs on that zone. as one or two bulbs burn out the load drops and the voltage ramps up very quick, blowing all bulbs on that run.

steveparrott
07-02-2009, 11:23 AM
Cast paths are notorious for eating lamps in irrigated yards if someone screws with sprinkler timing.

We have a sprinkler shield (CSPRS) for this situation.

Pro-Scapes
07-02-2009, 01:37 PM
This is the first I have heard of it. Can it be fit on existing small mushrooms and chinahats ?

I have probably 100 cast paths out there. While 99% are doing good there are the handful that are problimatic.

CAST has one of the best ideas in fixtures out there. Fastest installing stuff as I can go from out of the box to in the ground in seconds. If there were just some changes like a sealed lamp area it would really be a winner.

On a side note... the MR16 paths I have been installing have performed flawless and they seem to be the real crowd pleaser. When I show it there is never any objections as to the form or appearance of the fixture. Easy to sell and install and even easier to service. Nothing worse than going out to a job to find an oddball lamp you dont have on the truck because that is the only job that uses em. I have a handfull of 928 wedge lamps out there in some kichler lights I dread going to service. At least the 3156k lamps in the cast paths are easy to find at any parts store.

S&MLL
07-02-2009, 07:33 PM
This is the first I have heard of it. Can it be fit on existing small mushrooms and chinahats ?

I have probably 100 cast paths out there. While 99% are doing good there are the handful that are problimatic.

CAST has one of the best ideas in fixtures out there. Fastest installing stuff as I can go from out of the box to in the ground in seconds. If there were just some changes like a sealed lamp area it would really be a winner.

On a side note... the MR16 paths I have been installing have performed flawless and they seem to be the real crowd pleaser. When I show it there is never any objections as to the form or appearance of the fixture. Easy to sell and install and even easier to service. Nothing worse than going out to a job to find an oddball lamp you dont have on the truck because that is the only job that uses em. I have a handfull of 928 wedge lamps out there in some kichler lights I dread going to service. At least the 3156k lamps in the cast paths are easy to find at any parts store.

Must be older Kichlers or maybe a niche style pathlight. I would say 85 percent of Kichlers paths are 3156. Also when I use aluminum lights there wall washer also has a 3156.


On a side note what bulbs does everyone stock on the truck? I seem to always be fine but I think I have about $1,500 dollars worth of bulbs on the utility body service truck. I cant figure our which bulb I hate more. The t-3 wedge or the s-8 bayonet..... BOTH SUCK. And the s-8 bayonet if there is no grease in the socket have fun getting shards of glass in your fingers replacing one...... I'm still unsure why I service systems I didn't install.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
07-02-2009, 08:31 PM
Only $1500 in lamps in your truck? Wait till you see what happens when you switch over to LED lamps!!! :)

My miniature incandescent lamp kit has about $2K of lamps in it, my MR kit has well over $3k in it, same for the LED kit... and this is just for service calls.

I really don't have a problem with the T3 wedge xenon lamps... I think they actually work better than G4 Bi-pins in most applications.

BEST NEWS OF ALL - INDUSTRY FIRST!!! - I am working with my engineers to create the first feasible 12Vac T3 Wedge and SCB LED lamps in the market! Integral miniature drivers, integral patentend heat sink technology, high lumen output, and 2800K colour. Product is in development for testing as we speak.

S&MLL
07-03-2009, 02:29 AM
600 mr16s on the truck....... Where do you fit those?

Pro-Scapes
07-03-2009, 08:18 AM
I stock on the truck.

Mr16 in a variety of sizes but mostly FMW and BAB (about 50 of each for regular daily driving but take more as needed) so a total of about 150 lamps

10...20 and 35w bi pins

20and 35w t3 lamps

3156k

SCB in 10 and 20w.

Trailer also has an assortment of linevoltage lamps too for relamping porch lights and posts.

Lite4
07-03-2009, 09:00 AM
I carry about what Billy is carrying. I just dont' see a need to carry more. If I know I am going to need more I just pick up what I need. In MRs I stock in the 20s BAB, ESX, BBF. In the 35 just the FMW. 5,10s, 20s in the t-3, some wedge basers, MR-11s in 10 and 20 watt, Par 36s in 35watt, I also stock some line voltage Par 15 and 20s for replacing glare bombs on porches as well as a nice selection of dimmers. I then also carry a nice selection for my demo lights also, these get taken out and put in fixtures and then put back in boxes for storage if a different lamp is needed.

S&MLL
07-03-2009, 05:25 PM
Just wondering where you guys keep all of these lamps. Or do you pull an enclosed to a service call? I know if I was running out of standard pickup trucks I would be screwed... Loading/unloading everything every night. Do you guys use crates and just stack in the bed?

Lite4
07-03-2009, 10:56 PM
I have trays in my sprinter.

S&MLL
07-03-2009, 11:14 PM
Sprinter........Must be nice haha


What's the mpg on one of those not in tow?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
07-03-2009, 11:15 PM
All depends on the scope of your jobs I guess. When a full service call is 200+ fixtures you go through lamps pretty darned fast. Also remember that I have residential and commercial interior clients.

For the most part I use what look like tackle boxes. One for miniatures, One for LEDs, One for MRs. I then keep bulk pack MRs in a bin in the back of my truck. A soft tonneau over the box and very low risk of theft here in the woods and all is good.

I never thought about what a drag it would be to have to load and unload your pickup every day!

Lite4
07-04-2009, 08:59 AM
Sprinter........Must be nice haha


What's the mpg on one of those not in tow?

I have the one ton with the 14' box. 18 MPG all day long!

JoeyD
07-06-2009, 10:15 AM
Joey, I really don't agree you can run a 12 guage wire that far with that much load. It is way outside of every chart I have seen, and Amp wise that wire will be very hot to the touch. You are also eating twice the transformer load just to lose it in wire resistance. That's the heat you feel when you touch the wire. an extra 135 feet of wire, or heavier guage wire, is way cheaper than the load you are giving up on a trans. doing heavier loads and higher taps is also the recipe for blowing all bulbs on that zone. as one or two bulbs burn out the load drops and the voltage ramps up very quick, blowing all bulbs on that run.



You can run 12/2 600ft and have 60w and still put 12v to it with the 22v tap.......I dont know what charts your using but the chart we are using has been around for a LOOONGGGG time.....while most of our 15v max competitiors rule of thumb has always been 100ft, 100w on 12/2 we can essentially double that rule with a 22v tap.

You are correct that if you lose a lamp the others will go a little quicker but its all relevant..if you set a hub of lamps on a 14v tap and lose a lamp the voltage goes up as well and can damge the remaining lamps there also.

As for amps on the run that will only be depicted by the load in which case at 80% 12/2 is good for 16amps. Primary amps will go up due to the increased resistance/length of wire but that is normal and not dangerous. As for heat in the wire we can run wire 1000ft and the heat is only generated by the load, so as long as you dont overload the wire you have nothing to fear.

Its all in how you look at it. Guys who believe in our systems love them and love the flexibility. Those who are not fond of our systems tend to argue their saftey but in reality there is more than one way to skin a cat and still be very safe. If you want to be really effecient then go 24v!!

TXNSLighting
07-06-2009, 07:30 PM
You can run 12/2 600ft and have 60w and still put 12v to it with the 22v tap.......I dont know what charts your using but the chart we are using has been around for a LOOONGGGG time.....while most of our 15v max competitiors rule of thumb has always been 100ft, 100w on 12/2 we can essentially double that rule with a 22v tap.

You are correct that if you lose a lamp the others will go a little quicker but its all relevant..if you set a hub of lamps on a 14v tap and lose a lamp the voltage goes up as well and can damge the remaining lamps there also.

As for amps on the run that will only be depicted by the load in which case at 80% 12/2 is good for 16amps. Primary amps will go up due to the increased resistance/length of wire but that is normal and not dangerous. As for heat in the wire we can run wire 1000ft and the heat is only generated by the load, so as long as you dont overload the wire you have nothing to fear.

Its all in how you look at it. Guys who believe in our systems love them and love the flexibility. Those who are not fond of our systems tend to argue their saftey but in reality there is more than one way to skin a cat and still be very safe. If you want to be really effecient then go 24v!!

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

David Gretzmier
07-06-2009, 09:22 PM
Joey, the reason you are wrong is a simple matter of voltage drop. your original example of 180 watts at 200 feet is a perfect example why. every chart out there that I have used , new and old, for 15 years plus puts it outside the reccomended range for a very good reason.

at that load, my chart puts the drop at 8 volts. every 20 watt drop, or burned out bulb when you use that 20 volt tap, your voltage goes up by .9 volts. so even if you achieve an average of 11.3 volts at each fixture at the 200 foot 180 watt mark, with one bulb out you just hit 12.2. at that voltage you really start losing some of the life of the rest of the bulbs. while the rest of your bulbs might make it, once you lose one more bulb, you are at 13.1. once you hit that range, your bulbs are all gonna go on that run like popcorn. I just cannot believe that a sponsor would reccomend this type of set up.

Those higher taps were never meant to handle high loads, but to go longer distances. The higher the load, the greater risk of catastrophic burnout. I am ok with your 2nd example 600 feet on 40 or 60 watts, but the worst case in that situation is 2 or 3 fixtures out once one bulb goes. and it will, as each 20 watt drop in load bumps voltage up 3.3 volts.

JoeyD
07-07-2009, 09:51 AM
Been down this road many of time on this site and yes the voltage is increased on longer runs but its a fair tradeoff for not having to pull 120v power all over the yard to get transformers closer to your lights..Most contractors do not have a problem explaining the importance of replacing burnt out lamps right away in a low voltage system and always should explain that low voltage is different from line voltage in that you do have runs set according to load. Again on a 15v tap if you have 5 lights set at 11.5v what happens when one or 2 burn out? anything beyond 12v is BAD for a lamp so just because on a 15v tap it jumps to 12.3 big deal, 12+ is bad, 12-13-100v is all relevant and is all going to blow your lamps out. Remember, the 22v tap is an option, its not like every Unique system sold is using the 22v tap for every run, its just an OPTION instead of running big expensive wire and pulling 120v everywhere.

I will end it with same statement I ended my last post here with....

Its all in how you look at it. Guys who believe in our systems love them and love the flexibility. Those who are not fond of our systems tend to argue their saftey but in reality there is more than one way to skin a cat and still be very safe. If you want to be really effecient then go 24v!!

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/deadhorse.gif