Is mixing annual rye with tall fescue agood/bad idea?

[zanemoseley]

I started another thread about what to do with my clay sloped lot and have gotten some good advice but I thought I would start a new thread for this question.

This September I think I'll be applying fast acting lime, starter fertilizer, gypsum, possibly 1/4" compost top-dressing, seed and straw to my yard. Since it's sloped and the soil isn't the best I've though of trying to put in a good percentage of annual rye in with some Rebel IV tall fescue to get fast growth for ground cover to provide erosion control and give the fescue time to come up and fill in. I would probably also overseed in the spring with fescue.

Question is whether this is a good idea or just a way to choke out the fescue and hinder its growth, then when the rye dies in the hot season next year I would lose my cover.

If it is a good idea what percentage of both should I seed? Also lets just say the recommended ratio is 50/50, should I do 50% of the rate on the bag for new lawns or should I add a higher rate of either one?

[lawnspecialties]

I tried this on two lawns back in 2006 who wanted a reseeding done in late October. Being so late in the season for NC, I went 50/50 ryegrass with tall-fescue.

It was an absolutely horrible idea. For 6-7 months, these yards were lush green with ryegrass. By May of 2007, the ryegrass began to die off with virtually no fescue to show in it's place. The entire summer months, these yards looked like crap. I couldn't even put out Pre-M because I didn't want to hinder any late germinating fescue so the weeds thrived.

If I ever get any job like this again, I'll do two things: 1. Make sure the customer knows what may happen. 2. Go at least 80%:20% on my fescue:ryegrass seed ratio.

[zanemoseley]

Good to hear from your experiences, possibly saved me another headache. I wonder if the 20% rye would be a good idea. I also plan on using more excelsior mats this time but nothing helps erosion like some actual living grass which is why the rye is in my mind.

[Smallaxe]

Annual Rye survives the winter in Tennessee?

[zanemoseley]

I thought it lived through the winter but I'm not sure. We're no further north than NC. I thought annual rye was used to green up winter dormant grasses in the winter.

[lawnspecialties]

Annual ryegrass does great here in NC. I would imagine it would do just as well in Tn.. I have switched many commercial accounts over to bermudagrass and I look a lawncare genious from November through April. I've gone to a turf-type ryegrass and it's beautiful.

From around December-February, it mostly just lays there but at least it's green. From March until May, you wish it would look like that forever.

But like I said, mixing tall-fescue seeding and ryegrass is something I'll always "try" to avoid.

[Kiril]

This September I think I'll be applying fast acting lime, starter fertilizer, gypsum, possibly 1/4" compost top-dressing, seed and straw to my yard.

Why lime & gypsum? Compost should not be optional, ditch the straw.

[zanemoseley]

I'm not sure that bermuda does well here, I've not seen any offered at local stores which leads me to believe that it isn't recommended.


Annual ryegrass does great here in NC. I would imagine it would do just as well in Tn.. I have switched many commercial accounts over to bermudagrass and I look a lawncare genious from November through April. I've gone to a turf-type ryegrass and it's beautiful.

From around December-February, it mostly just lays there but at least it's green. From March until May, you wish it would look like that forever.

But like I said, mixing tall-fescue seeding and ryegrass is something I'll always "try" to avoid.

[zanemoseley]

Well I was going by this thread http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=232566&highlight=clay where topsites was recommending the use of gypsum for 3-4 years bi-annually to break down the clay. I might actually postpone the gypsum schedule as from what I've read there are no immediate effects and money is a bit tight now. The 1/4' of compost would be nice, it will kind of come down to if the people doing to work have a good way to top dress the composts, if they end up having to hand rake it then it may be too labor intensive to be affordable. Why no straw? What would you use instead? I do plan on using some excelsior mats in the identified washing areas.

Why lime & gypsum? Compost should not be optional, ditch the straw.

[RigglePLC]

I am from farther north. I hate annual rye. Use perennial rye--just as quick to germinate, better color and better quality. Under warm moist conditions--a half inch high in 48 hours. Add some Kentucky bluegrass--because it has good ability to creep and fill-in thin spots. Neither rye nor fescue can do that.

[zanemoseley]

Thats what I get for listening to the guy at Lowe's, he said perennial rye has about the same germination time as fescue and annual was much faster. I'm not actually buying my seed from Lowe's, the Co-op has much better prices.

[DiyDave]

With Ryegrasses, you have to worry about Allelopathy, which is the fancy scientific word for a substance that ryegrasses release upon germination, which effectively eliminates the competing grasses, like a herbicide! What I was taught, was to limit ryegrass to 10-15% of the mixture, MAX, or it will affect the germination of other species. Here's the link to the definition: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/HS186

[Kiril]

Well I was going by this thread http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=232566&highlight=clay where topsites was recommending the use of gypsum for 3-4 years bi-annually to break down the clay.

Yup, I remember that thread, and I commented on it then too.

Gypsum does not break down clay. It can be used for sodic soil reclamation and/or correcting Ca deficiencies, but it won't break down a clay. Get a soil test that also tests for organic matter, then determine what you need to fix.

The 1/4' of compost would be nice, it will kind of come down to if the people doing to work have a good way to top dress the composts, if they end up having to hand rake it then it may be too labor intensive to be affordable. Why no straw? What would you use instead? I do plan on using some excelsior mats in the identified washing areas.

The compost will do far more for your soil than the straw and is also more suitable for a seed top dress.

[lawnspecialties]

With Ryegrasses, you have to worry about Allelopathy, which is the fancy scientific word for a substance that ryegrasses release upon germination, which effectively eliminates the competing grasses, like a herbicide! What I was taught, was to limit ryegrass to 10-15% of the mixture, MAX, or it will affect the germination of other species. Here's the link to the definition: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/HS186

I had heard this as well but wondered if it was just an old wive's tale. :)

[Kiril]

I had heard this as well but wondered if it was just an old wive's tale. :)

Same can be said about KBG and fescue. Question is, does it impact turf establishment? ........ probably not.

[DiyDave]

Same can be said about KBG and fescue. Question is, does it impact turf establishment? ........ probably not.

With ryegrass, its definite that it effects the germination of other species, do some googling, and you'll find out the specifics, if you are curious.:waving:

[Kiril]

With ryegrass, its definite that it effects the germination of other species, do some googling, and you'll find out the specifics, if you are curious.:waving:

Which species of turf does rye effect, specifically?

I already have journal articles on the allelopathic effects of turf on woody species and other broadleafs. Don't think I have any on turf grass on turf grass effects .... do you?

[DiyDave]

I don't have time, right now to find where I read what I read, but if you google allelopathy, ryegrass, I'm sure you'll come up with some hits. I do know what I was taught at the U of MD back in the early 80's, and that was to limit the amount of ryegrass in seed mixtures, due to this effect.:drinkup:

[Kiril]

I don't have time, right now to find where I read what I read, but if you google allelopathy, ryegrass, I'm sure you'll come up with some hits. I do know what I was taught at the U of MD back in the early 80's, and that was to limit the amount of ryegrass in seed mixtures, due to this effect.:drinkup:

Well, I have searched, and just for shiits and grins I also searched Agricola. There is nothing that I found which speaks specifically on ryegrass allelopathic effects as a result of ryegrass seed germination on turf grasses.

Also consider both KBG and Fescue also produce allelopathic compounds. So one might conclude given the ratio of ryegrass to KBG or Fescue, the ryegrass would not only be affected, but might not even become established at all.

Certainly if there was research on this effect that speaks specifically on germination of ryegrass and allelopathic effects on other turf grasses it could be easily found on Google or Agricola ......... no?

In fact, on reviewing evidence for allelopathic compounds in the family Poaceae, we find only a single reference for perennial ryegrass. This reference refers to shoot leachates (not germination) as the source of the compound(s) and the tested target plant being Carduus nutans (thistle).

Allelopathic evidence in the Poaceae (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=6&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwebs.uvigo.es%2Fagrobiologia%2FPublicaci%25F3ns%2Fartigos%2F2004%2520The%2520Botani cal%2520Review%252069(3).pdf&ei=nm5bSqaKMJSysgOg2dS8DA&usg=AFQjCNGjMsn1WcdvS8W8hMD_teULGnPBkQ)

Given all of the above grass (KBG, Fescue, and Ryegrass) are in the same family, one might expect limited, if any, allelopathic effect between different genera.

Looking around at different seed mixes shows mixtures with ryegrass have widely variable percentages.

Check out this one.

BIG FOOT MIXTURE (http://www.summitseed.com/search_results.asp?txtsearchParamTxt=&txtsearchParamCat=16&txtsearchParamType=ALL&txtsearchParamMan=ALL&txtsearchParamVen=ALL&txtFromSearch=fromSearch&iLevel=1)

35% PROMISE Perennial Ryegrass,
35% EVENING SHADE Perennial Ryegrass,
30% BROOKLAWN Kentucky Bluegrass,

There are more mixes that can be found with percentages of ryegrass
much higher than your "10-15% of the mixture, MAX".


.............. just saying.

[integrityman]

A couple of years ago I did a seeding job at a church. Their budget was tight and I used some stuff from Tractor Supply called Groundhog or Hounddog. It had a lot of tall fescue in it. I was skeptical as I had never used the stuff before. It was a lot cheaper than I could get at the local grain elevator. It came as a mix of perennial rye and tall fescue. I tilled, leveled and seeded heavily. The grass came up thick. To my pleasant surprise, whenever I go by it always look green and well nourished. I know they don't use fert and it stays very green in the droughts we have had.
The pastor seems very happy and reports that the grass is very cushy to walk on.

Just my two cents worth.