Nitogen Burn

[Smallaxe]

What would be the normal response to a lawn that is water stressed and browning up? Midsummer heat - in full sun and just had fert applied 3 weeks ago.

Would you apply another bunch of N because it is on your calendar? or Would you delay, even skip the app. because dry turf and N may equal death?

[VARMIT COMMISSION]

Just an idea but you could use 100% slow release (43-0-0 XCU just as an example) and be confident you will never burn anything. No matter how hot and dry it is.

[Smallaxe]

So that could go on in the spring and left alone for the summer.

However, the point of the question was - Would you fertilize a drought stressed lawn?

[dishboy]

So that could go on in the spring and left alone for the summer.

However, the point of the question was - Would you fertilize a drought stressed lawn?

I would fire the customer!

[Heidi J.]

So that could go on in the spring and left alone for the summer.

However, the point of the question was - Would you fertilize a drought stressed lawn?

We only use slow release fert. But if it looks that bad, I would talk to the customer. How hard is it to water :confused: If the cost of the water is an issue, make a rain barrel, God forbid with all the rain this year, they should have a good stock pile by now! But why through your money away on fert if you can't even water!:hammerhead:

I love the PITA customers who complain in early fall, when their lawns are coming back that they have insect damage and alot of weeds.. hello, you should have watered in July!! Lawn care 101:laugh:

[Smallaxe]

Irrigation failed. Hot weather hit early. Customer is out of town a lot and didn't notice until it turned brown.

Blaming the customer is not wise. Professionals are paid to help the customer, not take advantage of a contract when things go wrong.

The problem I have in being able to help the client is that - some goofball is telling them that they need .75 lbs of N per K in early July.
Trying to bring it back to life, is actually germinating weeds all over with this excessive watering. The pre-m he spread over the new sod didn't help much either.

*Lawn care 101* Put root inhibitor, as a pre-m on new sod.

Thanks for the input.

[Think Green]

(What would be the normal response to a lawn that is water stressed and browning up?)

Smallaxe,
Never heard of it called water stress?? Heard of it called drought stress!! You had me thinking real hard there!!!
I skipped my rd-4 application last month because of excessive heat and humidity. Then it turned cooler with total dry conditions. The grasses began to brown out from the edges of the streets and sidewalks to a width of at least 5 feet inward all over the place.
I will wait until the rains return and allow the turf to recover and reapply my ferts. There will be one lesss applications for me this year..!

[Smallaxe]

Brown edges on the streets reminded me of yesterday going into town.
All the vehicles going through a particular intersection was attacked by a dust cloud.
The median strips between the roadways are dead, brown dirt, with only 2 weeds surviving in a 1/4 mile.

I suppose they were mowing - because...???

[Smallaxe]

(What would be the normal response to a lawn that is water stressed and browning up?)

Smallaxe,
Never heard of it called water stress?? Heard of it called drought stress!! You had me thinking real hard there!!!
I skipped my rd-4 application last month because of excessive heat and humidity. Then it turned cooler with total dry conditions. The grasses began to brown out from the edges of the streets and sidewalks to a width of at least 5 feet inward all over the place.
I will wait until the rains return and allow the turf to recover and reapply my ferts. There will be one lesss applications for me this year..!

So I take it, that you agree; sometimes it is not a good idea to apply N according to a schedule.

[Think Green]

Yes, I skip applications of fertilizers under these adverse conditions. It is not like mowing the lawns higher to preserve the leaf surface and reduce excessive watering needs.
I don't fert under the harsh conditions this year has dished out. The customers were called and they agreed on not accepting the rd-4 application until rains returned. Even if the N was applied at 1/4 rate, it will not benefit the lawn or what we are achieving for the customer....
The median or highway contractee's are under a contract by the city or the state to mow. They don't give a hang if there aren't any weeds or green grass growing for miles. It means that they will get done earlier and still get paid. The crews here were doing the same thing! The easements and right of ways are totally brown and they are kicking up dust bowls all over the place.
The difference is...................we will strive for quality in the appearance of a lawn...if we have to reduce services to keep the lawn looking good.....so be it! It is better to withhold services than to risk the possibility of totally burning out Bermuda or Zoysia. Replacing a large lawn is cheaper by not treating it than treating it and replacing it!!!
The customer will respect you more with common sense than without!!!!!!

[ted putnam]

I guess I'll be the one to stir up the hornet's nest. For the most part, I apply fert when under drought conditions(not extreme dought). It's not just my job to accept payment for services rendered. It is also my job to inform and educate customers.This includes cultural practices including watering. I do not use fertilizers that burn the turf unless they are somehow overapplied. That being said, the fertilizer will be there when I've motivated the customer to water or mother nature provides natural irrigation. By doing so, I have not somehow ripped them off or done them wrong. I have provided a product that will probably help the lawn recover from the drought faster once water/rain arrives. While I do apply fert when lawns have areas that are drought stressed I will not spray weeds in these areas. This would do more harm than good and it would be hard to keep customers doing this. Skipping/waiting to apply fert is easy when customer counts are low. Not so easy or practical otherwise. Proper use of quality products is beneficial to the lawn even if those benefits must wait for a little H2O. JMO

[Smallaxe]

I recognize that one of the big problems is - a large customer base in which everything is 'Standard'. Even for Nonirrigated lawns.

One thing that may be considered is that 'cool season' grasses never grow quickly enough to use even a .5#/k of N app., during the July/August time period. I would never contract with a client to apply during those 2 months. At least no earlier than mid August.

Will the N actually still be there when the rains return and the weather cools?
I don't think that the slow release or organic fertilizers are that volatile, but so much is being said about leaching and evaporating N - why bother?

I have personally observed several nonirrigated lawns, in partial shade, go downhill after just a couple of years of high maintenance N applications.
Does anyone believe that some lawns are strictly 'low maintenance' and should never be put on 5 apps in 5 months of N?

[ted putnam]

90% of my lawns are Bermudas. They thrive in hot, dry(not drought) conditions. Under high maintenance they will use a lot of fert. For the most part, they are pretty good at withstanding drought conditions. In extreme cases they may die but this is the exception, not the rule.They'll look like hammered crap through a drought period but give them a little rain/water and they bounce right back within a week.

[Smallaxe]

It's a different world with the southern grasses and the northern grasses. :)

I think too many of our 'general lawncare philosophies' came from the wrong climate zone. Or from golf courses, that maintain a full time staff to look at grass.

Thanks for the responses.
It lets me know what the chances are of convincing the local LCOs on the difference between high and low maintenance turf.

[RigglePLC]

I learned at TruGreen. Sure go ahead. It will rain sooner or later--and then the lawn will benefit and recover more quickly. But ...to avoid loss of nitrogen due to denitrification and volitization...use mainly slow release, 100 percent slow if possible.

[Smallaxe]

I learned at TruGreen. Sure go ahead. It will rain sooner or later--and then the lawn will benefit and recover more quickly. But ...to avoid loss of nitrogen due to denitrification and volitization...use mainly slow release, 100 percent slow if possible.

So there is no such thing as Nitrogen Burn and/or loss of turf on non-irrigated lawns?

Funny, but I learned from TGCL just exactly what N burn was all about. 20 years ago I had only a raw idea from what I had read in books. TGCL gave me a practical example that was easy to follow. :)

[phasthound]

Summer is a great time to add organic matter. Nutrients PLUS fertilizers will not burn because of the high organic matter content. In fact they will help turf recover better from drought stress, and disease issues. With these products there is no need to worry about damage and loss of income.

[Smallaxe]

Summer is a great time to add organic matter. Nutrients PLUS fertilizers will not burn because of the high organic matter content. In fact they will help turf recover better from drought stress, and disease issues. With these products there is no need to worry about damage and loss of income.

I can go along with that. I use Milorganite of course, but out of everything that is going on around the neighborhood with turf; my non-irrigated organically controlled lawn still looks OK after the recent drought. Irrigated lawns went through hundreds of thousands of gallons of water and really remain unimpressive compared to the little yellow sprinkler that could. Now with the recent rains I am actually going to mow it again. !!! In July!!! :)

[dishboy]

I can go along with that. I use Milorganite of course, but out of everything that is going on around the neighborhood with turf; my non-irrigated organically controlled lawn still looks OK after the recent drought. Irrigated lawns went through hundreds of thousands of gallons of water and really remain unimpressive compared to the little yellow sprinkler that could. Now with the recent rains I am actually going to mow it again. !!! In July!!! :)


What exactly does organically controlled mean?

[RigglePLC]

"Don't worry about it. You can't burn brown grass. And maybe we can kill some spurge." From our senior guy at my old TruGreen branch. He felt the difference was...which would you rather have no food and no beer...or...a steak dinner and no beer?

About half of our lawns were irrigated. And eventually it did rain. True some nitrogen was lost due to volitization. Slow release or organic granular would have been better by far. I don't feel that a high-quality granular fertilizer causes any extra stress.

[Smallaxe]

What exactly does organically controlled mean?

It means that the soil fertility is built up and nutrients are being added as they are digestted. No water - little digestion. Therefore remains in original form, a little longer. No burning it its original form.

This is in contrast to how watersoluable synthetic N operates. Too much and it burns, too dry and it burns.
It reacts to any amount of moisture on the surface where the ganules sit. Correct?

[Smallaxe]

"Don't worry about it. You can't burn brown grass. And maybe we can kill some spurge." From our senior guy at my old TruGreen branch. He felt the difference was...which would you rather have no food and no beer...or...a steak dinner and no beer?

About half of our lawns were irrigated. And eventually it did rain. True some nitrogen was lost due to volitization. Slow release or organic granular would have been better by far. I don't feel that a high-quality granular fertilizer causes any extra stress.

Brown grass doesn't have live roots?
Again, Is there - no such thing as nitrogen burn??

Using the 'head guy' at Trugreen is not a reputable source by a long shot. :laugh:
Remember I mentioned earlier that these guys are the ones that gave the perfect real life example of what nitrogen burn was. Of course, if there is no such thing, I must have observed something else.

[ted putnam]

I've been doing this a long time and I have to say without a doubt(warm season turf anyway) I've never seen drought stressed turf + N = dead grass...never. The only time I've ever seen dead grass as a result of fert is because of misapplication/overapplication or accidental spill. Will it burn turf that is already burned by drought and heat? I doubt it...I can honestly say I've never seen it happen. I think what Riggle was trying to say was that it's hard to burn something that is already burned. Roots run deep. If turf is dead after a drought period and there was a normal application of fertilizer at the proper rate during that drought period, I believe you'd be hard pressed to prove it was the fert that did it and not the drought. JMO

[Grandview]

Brown grass doesn't have live roots?
.
I do not agree with this. A lawn can be brown and dormant from cold or drought but the root system is alive. If the roots are not alive it does not come back.

[Smallaxe]

I've been doing this a long time and I have to say without a doubt(warm season turf anyway) I've never seen drought stressed turf + N = dead grass...never. The only time I've ever seen dead grass as a result of fert is because of misapplication/overapplication or accidental spill. Will it burn turf that is already burned by drought and heat? I doubt it...I can honestly say I've never seen it happen. I think what Riggle was trying to say was that it's hard to burn something that is already burned. Roots run deep. If turf is dead after a drought period and there was a normal application of fertilizer at the proper rate during that drought period, I believe you'd be hard pressed to prove it was the fert that did it and not the drought. JMO

N burn doesn't work in such dramatic ways as that.
The lawns that I observed it happening to were not irrigated - number 1. Number 2 there was no overseeding done to increase density, just mowed, occasional fertilizer. (Low maintenance - shade).

The lawn maintained its normal good spots and thin spots for 10 years. No noticeable fluctuation from year to year. Until someone convinced the HO that Trugreen should take over the lawncare for him. "Make it thick and green!!!"

So of course 4-6 apps of everything including a snow-covered frozen soil, N app. in late Nov-ealy Dec.
2 or 3 years go by and the lawn is noticeably dying back. The good spots had degenerated into dust bowls themselves and the bad areas are just dirt with a blade here and there, unit irrigation was installed.
The other place never got irrigation and they wanted me to bring the lawn back to life. So I did - after they fired TGCL. Looks great now.

[Ron95gt]

I have St. Augustine on acreage, full sun, at the Va/Nc line. Can somebody explain to me what "loss of nitrogen to volitization" means? Thx.

[Smallaxe]

It evaporates.

[RigglePLC]

Certain bacteria under warm dry conditions denitrify nitrate fertilizer. It is converted to amonia and it evaporates--gone. Urea, the most common nitrogen fertilizer, is converted by other bacteria into nitrate in the soil. Watering-in the fertilizer prevents most of this loss as the amonia stays in the soil water solution.

Actually, the soil science majors can explain it a lot better.