Out the window with the "one third rule"

[MATTHEW]

Has anyone else been overwhelmed in the past few days with the grass growing extremely fast? In the Northeast, we had a ton of rain and then 85 degree temps. These lawns would have to be cut every day or two to follow that one. I hit the ones I did 4 days ago and had do double cut and bag several. And it's only the middle of April!

[Esby]

Couldn't tell ya....I'm still waiting to make my first regular cut of the season. These warm temps are helping show some signs of greening, but little growth is to be seen as of yet.

[johndeere455]

I'm having the same problem here in Mansfield,Ohio, and the phone is ringing off the hook for yard bidding. I'm gonna have to take a days vacation from my normal job to just get caught up on mowing. There is more rain in the forcast. Money,Money,Money.


Mark

The Wright-Way Lawn&Landscape

[1MajorTom]

Yep grass is growing fast. Especially the lawns that are fertilized.

We cut one our lawns, and came back in 5 days to cut it again because it grows so fast.

We received a note in the mail.

"Matt and Jodi,
Although I get many compliments on my lawn, and I am very pleased with my service, I can not afford to have my grass cut more than once a week. I am paying over $200.00 a month for weekly cutting, and I can not afford me. Please continue to cut the grass only once a week. Thanks."

Double cutting that lawn is not unusual usually even way into July that's how fast it grows.

We shouldn't really complain though. Glad to have healthy lawns that need cut.

[Lawn-Scapes]

The grass has really taken off this week. I had to double cut everyone today and ended up working 2 hours longer than anticipated.. Oh well.

[smalltime]

I was just thinking the same thing tonight while mowing my own lawn. I mowed it last Thursday and then again this evening. I had to double cut the front yard. I just raised the deck for the back and side yards.

We are supposed to get several days of rain now, so I wanted to get it done before the rain hit. It is a good thing. At the rate it is growing I would have been cutting 8 inch tall grass.

Steve:blob3:

[proline32]

They have gotton WAY out of hand here, I have been informing folks that call for bids that I will NOT mow every other week Period. It is just way to hard to maintain lawns that way, amaizing how they think that it's not that bad, typical homeowner mentality.

[eggy]

It is growing crazy, we had a lot of lightning around here the other day and a old wise tell says lightning makes the grass grow....whatever it is, its growing! Too Fast! But in August I am sure I will be saying geez I wish it would rain....

[heygrassman]

Cut one last Sunday and went back yesterday thinking, awe it wont be bad... YIKES...

[David Haggerty]

Every lawn I mow is mowed on an "as needed" basis.
When it grows to 4" it's cut back to 3".
I've been doing that for 20 years.

I won't consider "friday" cuts for the residentials until after the Fourth of July.

This is the fastest starting April I've ever seen.
First week, and everyone's on a 5 day schedule, some could use it every 4 days.
This April's going to have 6 cuts. May could have seven.

Ohio has phenomenol grass growth.
We're far enough north to have 16 hour summer days.
Plus we're far enough south to have the warm temps and rains.
I sometimes have trouble educating plant managers from out of state.
They find it hard to believe you can literally watch the grass grow here.:D

Dave

[PrimeGreen Lawn]

TSG, same problem here, my friend......double cut each one. I've cut my own little piece of turf 7 times already. Last mowing was yesterday and previously on Sunday! 2-3" growth!

[awm]

same here. wouldnt u know it . i finally lost the threads on a spindle ,on the lazer. i cross threaded it not long ago ,so knew it was coming.back on the murray fo a day.cuts good and easy
operation w hydrostat . but oh so slow.oh well i run a heavy wk and light week . at least this is the light wk.

[Garry]

Don't anyone take this personal...............although, I'm sure some will, but, with an agronomic attitude like that, I'm sure glad you're not cutting my lawns.

As a landscape manager, I over-see almost 200 properties, which translates to about 120 different mowing operations. Because we're in an area of pretty good wealth, these operations tend to be large and fairly professional.

Well, there is this one crew..............Damn, at least 150 thousand worth of gear on a MONSTER 24 foot trailer ( I still swear this thing is illeagal)...........Custom dumper with (no shi#).....a sleeper. Custom paint job...........My god, you just wanna hire them...........UNTIL, you meet the fattest, dumbest, most ignorant s.o.b. that done ever walked this earth.

Well anyway.......

In order to do the job properly, in order to keep the lawn running at peak performance, in order to have the least wear and tear to your equiptment........................Never, and I mean "at no time", ever, remove more than one-third of the blade at any one cutting.

My brothers, Purely from the lawns standpoint, mowing is a major detriment. (it's not that good for it, either)

It causes a temporary stoppage of root growth, produces a nasty *wound* that can become infected by pathogenic organisims, slows carbohydrate storage/production, increased water lose, Etc.

Thank the good Lord, this plant species evolved through millions of years of grazing mammal activity. You're simply preforming the task nature designed for this plant species. The eveloution of the herbivorous "grazers" has turned to iron and whirring steel. Back in my school daze, we used to call our mowers........Mechanical herbivores.

Hey man, it was kinda funny back then.........Now, I just relize what a damn geek I was.

You are harvesting a crop.

You are defoliateing a very important part of the plant.

And on top of that...............your machines are getting heavier and heavier. (Zero turning radius has injured many, many, a plant.)

Soil compaction is a horrible problem these days, whereas, it never seemed to be only a few years before....................Hmmmmmmm, and it really seems prevelent on the lawns with the big crews, I don't know, but, I may be on to something here.

Scientifically, your lawns are alot *healthier* 5 minutes before you arrive, because they sure as hell are hurting 5 minutes after you leave.

A lawn gives off the most pathetic moan for about 2 to 3 days after *the beating*.........................Ya gotta get real close though.

And to everyone of you guys that can do 15 M-ft2.........in under 15 minutes (cut, trim, blow)..............please, let me say this................Wow, can you do that all day?...........5-6/days a week?........it's impressive. (It's just not me, though)

Nothing pisses a turf manager off worse than to see older tissue, where a good portion of the iron (green) happens to be, removed with wanton.

Take one pass through a stand of turf, stop, look behind you.

Do you see that?...........................look at the difference.

You got your job...................I got mine..............and somewhere in the middle, my brother, we gotta meet. Yes, your kind is big, strong, and in great shape...however, my kind is smaller, cunning, adaptive..........................I'll be okay.

Tell me to go fork myself, for you won't be the first................but, man, why don't you tell these people you have to cut more in the *heavy growth season*..........................Double cuts!.......Christ, like the first time wasn't bad enough. Some of you guys are even admitting to double cutting. Hey, are you gettin paid to rip it twice..Hmmmm, didn't think so.

[LAWNS AND MOWER]

I'm off to my best start in 16 years. It's crazy. I've already cut some accounts 5 times. Some years, I haven't started mowing til April 15th. As for having to double cut, are you guys running double blades??? Ever since I switched to double blades 2 weeks ago, I havn't had to double cut a single account. Plus I'm not even leaving any hairballs on the accounts. If I was still on single blades, I would be double and even triple cutting some accounts and they still wouldn't turn out as nice as if I used double blades on them once. Good luck!!!!!

[stslawncare]

i had to double mow all my accounts but one and they are all just about due already, been less then a week!

[script]

Been cutting all of my accounts weekly for about 6 weeks now, and have to agree that this year started much earlier.

Brian,I heard the same thing from an old ship pilot about the lightning causing the grass to grow faster. I think he said that the lightning puts out nitrogen and causes plants to grow better. He told me that even when you water your lawn as needed from a sprinkler, it will never be the same as mother nature. Since I've paid more attention to it, it seems to be true.

Bobby

[LAWNGODFATHER]

GARY, you know damn well that is impossable to follow.

My lawns are growing just fine, only had to double cut a few so far.

Keep the amount of "n" down and they should stay easily managable.

Kill some clover and danilions and will be all good.

[Garry]

Remember, Nitrogen makes up over 75% of the atmosphere. Lightning strips away electrons in a process called oxidation. This, in turn, starts a process, where nitrogen *in the cycle* is available to the plant in a "quicker/more present form.

Or something like that.

Godfather: Yes it can!

Most important..................WATER!

2nd.....................and real damn close.............Defoliation (harvest)

Cultural habits must be a point of main concern, when viewing a sucessful landscape.

Spring fertilization is done in the fall................I don't care what anyone says. Yes, nitrogen management is key. Hey, everyone of you guys that see someone fertilizng way too early, the very lawn you have to mow, you should drop the s.o.b. where he stands. And to you scapers that put the stuff down way too early, then have to struggle through it, I say, Well, there you go, my brother.

And that's great, but, if more damn effort was made to aerate and adjust soil pH..............................every one of us would be better off. I love see the huge truck, trailor, mowers (ota), etc, at the local hardware store getting 4-5 bags of lime.............everytime, the "boss" comes up to my truck (the spray tank's giving me away)....It goes like this...

Gettin some lime?...............yeah.

For one garden?...............No, it's for the day..........3 clean ups and fert/lime/grub control/weeed killer/etc.

Hmmmmm, that's cool!........................yeah, man my lawns look great!

I think this part to myself.........................."Well so does Rt. 95"

Godfather, what's the problem? Do you not have enough manpower or perhaps, machienery, to do the number of accounts you have, properly.

Does *your flock* of grazers have too much to eat?

Jack up that mower, and if you can't, you need to see about one that can. And yes, it is nice, for once, to be the one who bitches, for I have spent many a year walking in your shoes.

[lawnkid]

Agreed! The lawns I was cutting today for the second time were like 5" tall. I had to cut and then bag. It was a workout though going over it several times. I don't think its ever grown this quick in the spring. My mower actually had some difficulty cutting at a low speed because it was so high in some areas.

[osc]

You doesn't talk like anyone from Rhode Island I ever met.

I really dig your theory and I lost quite a few customers in my early days implimenting the same practice. When the lawn grows out of control 2 days after I leave the property these customers do not care about how healthy it is they want it scalped to the dirt or killed dead so I don't have to come back for 2 weeks. I floundered trying to educate people so I compromised with a 2.5" cut and see ya next week.

[ceaman]

I am swamped here too.... Mowing like crazy. All of our accounts are on a 3 to 4 day schedule right now, and the phone wont stop ringing.
I cut one yard today that had a septic system fertilizing the yard and the grass was 10" tall in a 15'x100' area... Im using the Doubles but that was still way to much!

[lamblawnscaping]

Garry,

Why would one have the equipment and manpower on hand to mow after 3 days instead of 7 due to unusually fast growth. As soon as the growing becomes normal again, you would have a bunch of mowers and guys doing nothing. That just dosen't make sense.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Originally posted by osc
You doesn't talk like anyone from Rhode Island I ever met.

I really dig your theory and I lost quite a few customers in my early days implimenting the same practice. When the lawn grows out of control 2 days after I leave the property these customers do not care about how healthy it is they want it scalped to the dirt or killed dead so I don't have to come back for 2 weeks. I floundered trying to educate people so I compromised with a 2.5" cut and see ya next week.

He talks like no one has ever heard.

He must like the 3rd person.

Gary how many pounds of nitrogen per 1000 should you apply per a year?

Yes I fert for Spring in the Fall also.

[John DiMartino]

Gary,you sound a little extreme,although i agree with some of your views.BTW I always spring fert in the fall-but this yr due to a long growing season,the grass didnt go dormant here until late december,and the warm winter combined to deplete the N reserves in most of my fertilzed turf,you could see it was hungry,so for the first time in a long time,i gave them a 1/2 lb/1000 shot of quick release N last week,combined with the rain,and warm weather,the grass has come put of dormancy nicely.Now it is grwoing quite quickly.BTw i cut my greens 4-6 times a week,and they still loook great,according to you they should be dead by now.

[strickdad]

Originally posted by MATTHEW
Has anyone else been overwhelmed in the past few days with the grass growing extremely fast? In the Northeast, we had a ton of rain and then 85 degree temps. These lawns would have to be cut every day or two to follow that one. I hit the ones I did 4 days ago and had do double cut and bag several. And it's only the middle of April! matt we had the same growth spurt a few weeks ago. and i got a kick out of watching them walker boys struggle to keep those grass shoots from getting clogged!!

[David Haggerty]

Originally posted by lamblawnscaping
Garry,

Why would one have the equipment and manpower on hand to mow after 3 days instead of 7 due to unusually fast growth. As soon as the growing becomes normal again, you would have a bunch of mowers and guys doing nothing. That just dosen't make sense.

Because that's what they pay me to do.
I mow the grass when it needs it.
I just work overtime April, May & June.

Dave

[MOW ED]

Garry,
Are you sure you haven't been smokin that grass?
:D

Entertaining exchange.

[MATTHEW]

Yeah, I've seen those walker rigs with the grass piled high in the truck. Not for me. I am hesitant to use doubles now due to the stress factor on the equipment. I do agree about the nitrogen factor. Going at a 1lb rate, which is the norm up here, stimulates flush growth but it also causes many grass varieties to fan out and fill in those little spots from the drought last year. Those plants will continue to thrive throught the season.

[Garry]

Gentlemen,.................... and you, Godfather.

Whoa. I'm NOT talking about your need to feed your families. No way, I'm not even going there. I got plenty of kin, all of which need money to survive.

I'm not even talking business, I'm talking science.

WE are in the business of a science..........................and, until we get own heads out of our own asses, and agree on something that benefits the landscape, we will forever be at a state of war.

I (Garry Lamar) can say to a homeowner....." I've got a bad fungus problem goin on out there, I had to use a very expensive fungicide..............you have to call the cutters and tell them NO cutting for 2 weeks"

99.9937%........................the cutters get a call

Please, my brothers..................I can be a huge prick....Hey, why do you think they made urea?....................Uhhhh, that's a really, really, late, but, kinda early..........uh, pre........No, post emergent, treatment thingy.

I love you guys!..............................Godfather, I kiss your ring, please, I no wanna sleep with the fishes.

All I'm saying is this.

When the lady tells you she's just spoken with the *lawn specialist*...............And she wants to know why you're NOT following his directions (Remember, we're a team, we went over this.........remember?)...What will be your response?

Do you know more about this lawn than I do?

Because, I seriously doubt that.

Let's break this (landscape care) down as simple as we can.

The first 25%.........................don't give two shirts.

The next 25%...................cut it themselves or piddle around with any scrub that comes along.

Next 25%.................Nice work, when you get it.................always trying to get something for nothing...( Hey, ya make a living)

The top 25%............................Ahhhhhhhhh, this is living!

Okay, bad-ass........................Think about it,...where do your customers lie?

Because, if you try to tell me you're a "landscape big-guy, that only cuts the best".........................Well then, my brother, let me tell you this.

I have yet to meet anyone in the top 25% that ever, and I mean ever, didn't understand that sometimes you must do things alittle different.

Or, at times, things will get kinda expensive.

Bottom line: The *big-guy*, mower-cowboys, no water........................Man, that's ah nice-ah lawn-ah.

[gogetter]

Gary..........what the hell are you talking about?

[Garry]

My God, man...............Don't you see it.

You read my reply, but, do you even for one minute contemplate what I was saying before you popped off your response?

Well, seeing as you mispelled my name.............I wonder.

This could very well be the thread Lawnsite was designed to do.............................An all-out cyber-brawl, about something that must be talked about!

How how do my *field-testing* is my own business, Mow Ed.

Under my thousand dollar scope, in my incubator, rolled in rice paper and set afire...........................It's all the same, my brother.

How can we ever learn to live together in harmony, if we can't even talk as professionals.

[lamblawnscaping]

Would you describe the way you have been talking as professional?

[jay warner]

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING? Put down the bottle and step away from the computer.:confused:

[Kevin@Siteworks]

crazy here in columbus too...been working 14 hr days....this is insane!

[larrv45390]

Garry it sounds like you have a degree and hay that is grate but so do I and I bet mine is much higher than yours. When is the last time some one called you Doctor Garry? I bet never. Yes a lot of what you are saying is true but until you have a customer yelling at you on the phone that their grass needs cut again and its only been 3 days since you cut it last you have no way of knowing what any one in this post is talking about.

And if you want to talk science try using language that you or others on this site mite want their children to heir. I have never taken part in a technical discussion in witch language like you have been using has been viewed as proper.

As for the two much nitrogen in the spring being are problem in Ohio I can only say this “You have no idle what you are talking about” I only treat the soil in my lawns and all of them are growing ½” a day. Today I cut three lawns that have never been treated with any thing that had grown as tall and green as the lawns that have. So tell me why are they growing so fast?

[Lawn-Scapes]

Someone must have skipped Eng101 en route to their degree :D larrv?

Why can't my browser find www.larryslawn.com?

[Garry]

Okay gentlemen, don't take a off-hand crack to heart, I apologize.

Remember, my brothers, I've been there.

We could learn alot from a great run on this subject.

Ease up, I don't think I'm better than anyone else, nor do I think I'm smarter, so chill..........I write it just like I say it.

Isn't this what we're doing here?

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Garry, therory and science is good, but keep in mind this is not a laboratory, IT IS THE REAL WORLD, and all therory goes out the window when you have weather and ignorant customers that have no clue of the life of the grass plant or other.

Calm down take a breath or 2, relax.

Now back to my question, how much "n" do they recomend per 1000 sq/ft per a year?

[65hoss]

After reading thru this thread twice I think I almost understand Garry.

The sprayers fight the cutters, the cutters fight the sprayers. I will say this, knowledgable cutters are on the property much more than the sprayers. Its a lot easier to know what is going on and the problems involved when your there weekly and not just 5 minutes six times a year.

[kutnkru]

The warm rains of last weekend have brought spring upon faster than we can keep up with -LOL!!!

I would say that just over half of the clients who requested PowerRakings have to be cut first so that we can productively do something.

With the onslaught of the arrogant temperatures Tuesday thru today I am not the only one locally who found that sunblock and hats werent enough to keep the blistering sun off our necks.

Hopefully the weather beaters are correct about the more pleasurable temps forecasted for the upcoming week.

Kris

[Garry]

Gentlemen,

First let me say this. Nowhere on my office walls will you find a framed certificate from any school...................Not an AS or a BS or an MS...................and especially not a Doctorate. Please, don't insult those who do.

You could say I'm blessed..............I'm the son of a disabled WW2 veteran (RIP Dad)............I was PRIVILEDGED to be able to go to any school I wanted, until the age of 26 (on behalf of the US Navy). Parts of my education were great, as I studied with some top names in the Green industry, however, the simple fact I had the resourses to attend different schools (and have a steady stream of new majors) ...ended up being my undoing, because I never stayed anywhere long enough,

Hey, what's a dregree anyway?

Is it a amount of books you read?.......................got that.

Hours under the scope?..........................got that too.

Reasearch........................done a bunch.

Ever taught.....................Yep.

On top of all of this.............I become very good friends with Professor C. Richard Skogley, Dean of Plant Science, University of Rhode Island. Dr. Skogley was one of THE top authorities on turfgrass..................( God rest your soul, Dr.)

Thousands of lawns later......................Here I am.

I was taught at an extreme level, by someone, who, because he worked at a state run school, considered himself a public servant.

Because, as strange as this sounds, HE taught me, therefore, I feel the same obligation to teach you.

The only problem being...........................There might be a bunch of stuff you know, that I don't.

You are all my brothers...........................We're family, man.

And because of that I'm gonna fill you in.

IN NEW ENGLAND....where I dwell.

Nitrogen.........................4.5lbs per M/ft2, per growing season.

May 1.......................1/2 lb.
September 1...............1/2lb.
Nov/Dec?.....................2 point 5 lbs........(here's your spring fert.)

AERATE, AERATE, AERATE!.................(beat that sucker soooo bad, it's scared of you this summer)

Take some plugs, put them in a glass bottle with some water, and find out what the hell kind of soil you have. If it's too sandy, it'll run your nitrogen through the growing plane like poop through a goose...( you gotta do something)...If it's too much on the clay side.......well, I hoped you whooped it, because, it can't breath. Too much silt................Hmmmmm, we ain't got much of that round here,.............Uh, I'm sure I knew about it at one time, let me get back to you on that one.

LIME to the correct pH of the MAJOR population of plants you're dealing with. (example/ mono-culture of bluegrass (Poa Pratensis) in this area does best at a 6.3 soil pH, whereas, a Fescue population seems to thrive at a slightly lower 6.0.)

Crabgrass in this area arrives when the soil attain 55 degrees.

I've yet to ever see that happen much before the beginning of May. (I've been carrying a Lamont soil thermometer for many a year)

I put control down at a 52 degree reading.

Weeds and crabgrass are not A problem, they're the symptoms of THE problem. Everyone would be much better off if you just install a nice lawn with good turf density.

I will keep aerating, until I'm satisified there's nothing standing in the way of the flow of air, water, and fertilizers, down to the root zone.

ROOTS, my brothers, ROOTS!....................Literally, hundreds of miles (collectively) of water suckin, food gathering love.

I take this seriously...................This is, and has, been my life for a long, long, time. If you don't like the way I say it, or are easily offended...................Go to the next thread, my brother.

[1grnlwn]

Hey Garry it's me, I see you have ventured out of application forum in to GEN POP. Don't get shanked! I think around here its the rapid temp and sunlight that's making things pop. I had property that has not even been fertilized this year , cuttings everywhere. We will not I repeat NOT mow property fertilized by someone else next year. My way or the highway. We don't have many of those top 25% ers around here so we have to be a little more creative and bendy. So if you talk like you write, would it go something like this? Well Mr. Smith You have obviously have got to areate this Dot Dot Dot Dot Dot Dot Dot Dot Dot Dot Dot Dot Dot Dot Dot Dot Lawn before the hypochlorisi goes into subjectal chloro dymethlin. Make the check out to Dot Dot Dot Dot Dot Dot Dot Dot Me. Just kidden ya ma bruthu. Did you slip by giving out hard information? [Quote]Nitrogen.........................4.5lbs per M/ft2, per growing season.

May 1.......................1/2 lb.
September 1...............1/2lb.
Nov/Dec?.....................2 point 5 lbs........(here's your spring fert.)
[Quote]

Is that 2.5 lbs of N one app? and how much slow release are you using? Around here aeration is looked at by many as like an extended warranty, rust proofing or abdonomizer. We preach we pamplet only some step up to the plate. Do mine twice a year. So hang in there Garry and lets keep it clean for the next generation.

Mark

[Garry]

And in the end........................ I will find out why.

[1grnlwn]

Got your E-Mail Garry, maybe you should have finished college!

[Garry]

Hmmmm, how right you are Tom. The math doesn't jibe. I see the problem, I simply left out .5 quick-.5 slow= 1lb/N, times two, there's the missing pound.

I blatanly show my ignorance in lack of review of my reply.

Yes, 2.5lbs/N may seem extreme...................I'm the first to relize this, however, one can not ignore the results I've obtained.

My lawns are deep, dark, green in color, and they're within two weeks of fertilization, which they don't even look like they need.

Oh, but, I know otherwise.

Remember, you're not feeding the plants, you're resupplying Nitrogen to the soil *cycle*..........alittle quick (for quality)........alittle slow (let's hope you've got a good micro-organism population).

Hey, it's been almost 6 months since the last time you did it anyway. If you've had anywhere near the precipitation (rain/irrigation) required for good plant response, It's time to reload.

Stop!..........think about what you're doing as you adjust your spreader for that May doseage, for you are very close to the *hundred days of death*. The last thing you want is excessive, succulent top growth, decrease in cell wall thickness, increased resperation, etc. right as the plant is entering the toughest part of its season.

If you need green...USE IRON.

My Nitrogen success only works on well aerated soils at proper soil pH levels.

For example I have one account that has a Bluegrass mono-culture (sod@8M/ft2)..........pH 6.3, cut height 3 1/2..........cut @ 41/2 show growth. Located on a busy roadway, this area is a true example of a highly monitored turf. Water readings and moisture levels are constantly checked and adjusted (field- capacity being a must).

In the backyard area I'm dealing with an old shade mix we were playing with years ago.

Some Jamestown..........and alot of fescue mix, (I have no adversion to different cultivars) (for the most part, personally, fescue is fescue)...........I keep the pH @ 5.9 to 6.1............cut height 3.75.......cut on advise only............DO NOT overwater. I might even drop the spring rate to .75lbs N/Mft2.

Now, if I had a tank that sprayed *the juice*.........One size fits all treatment, how could I possibly properly treat both areas...............OR if you go across those areas with the same bag of *lawn-crack*, and never adjust your spreader.

Somewhere, something got too much and the other doesn't get enough.

Nothing is more important than managing your water.............But, Nitrogen management is what both sets you apart from the others AND can make your life a hell of alot easier during the growth spurts and stresses of the plants life cycle.

[Russo]

Garry,

Would you please do your next dissertation on why tree topping is a poor practice ( surely, you've had tea with Dr. Shigo as well ). Then, I can print it out and hand it to my clients instead of explaining it to them, because I now realize that I must sound like you when I do so. WOW. Won't do that anymore.

Some folks really just don't care. I tell clients that, in general, I'll do what they want me to. It's my job to explain to them what is in the best interest of the plant. After that, it's their plant. Oh yeah, and their money; that is the unmeasurable economics of plant science.

You seem to be quite a nut job , and you'd fit right in with most of my croud as far as that goes. However, I can do without all the mental maturbation.

Keep the green side up,yo!

Landscraper.

[RMDoyon]

landscraper,
Well said!

Roger

[SLS]

landscraper says:


"Some folks really just don't care. I tell clients that, in general, I'll do what they want me to. It's my job to explain to them what is in the best interest of the plant. After that, it's their plant. Oh yeah, and their money; that is the unmeasurable economics of plant science.


You are right landscraper.

Case in point:

I just got off the phone with a potential client and told him that weekly cuttings were my routine. Of course he wanted bi-weekly service. So, I explained the benefits of the "1/3rd Rule", lack of excess clippings, cutting it "high" to induce drought resistance and root growth,... ect.

His response?

"Well, not to disagree with you, but I think it is the homeowners decision as to how often their lawn should be cut...and how short it should be cut...and I like mine real short. That way it only has to be cut every two weeks..or so. Besides, it's my money.".

I told him that I agreed with him 100%...that it IS the owners perogative as to how their lawn is maintained..and how often. I told him that I felt if someone wants their lawn cut twice a year than that is how it should be. After all, it is HIS lawn and HIS money.

Of course I politely declined to place a bid on this one. :)

Lawns are growing at about a foot a week around here right now!

Oh well.........

[RV_Landscaping]

Originally posted by SLS
landscraper says:



You are right landscraper.

Case in point:

I just got off the phone with a potential client and told him that weekly cuttings were my routine. Of course he wanted bi-weekly service. So, I explained the benefits of the "1/3rd Rule", lack of excess clippings, cutting it "high" to induce drought resistance and root growth,... ect.

His response?

"Well, not to disagree with you, but I think it is the homeowners decision as to how often their lawn should be cut...and how short it should be cut...and I like mine real short. That way it only has to be cut every two weeks..or so. Besides, it's my money.".

I told him that I agreed with him 100%...that it IS the owners perogative as to how their lawn is maintained..and how often. I told him that I felt if someone wants their lawn cut twice a year than that is how it should be. After all, it is HIS lawn and HIS money.

Of course I politely declined to place a bid on this one. :)

Lawns are growing at about a foot a week around here right now!

Oh well.........

My first ever customer... (who I still mow for, ironically)--was just like that... Only he wanted it REALLY short once a week:-) I've told him for years...cutting it as short as he wants it is what makes the lawn brown every August....Specially here in Ohio where we get plenty of rain until august, and then...none....He finally told me last year he wanted to give 'my way' a shot...he had thick, green grass all year...and I'm mowing every 4 days this spring....

[SLS]

RV_Landscaping:

Right on!

It is nice when they will listen to you as opposed to trying to use you to save a buck, isn't it? :D

Every 4 days must be nice!

It's those "every 2 weeker's" who won't budge that can create the big headaches.

[RV_Landscaping]

Originally posted by SLS
RV_Landscaping:

Right on!

It is nice when they will listen to you as opposed to trying to use you to save a buck, isn't it? :D

Every 4 days must be nice!

It's those "every 2 weeker's" who won't budge that can create the big headaches.

yeah, well...it won't last... (i do hope it does though:)
i mowed this guys thursday...was by a bit ago....its...higher than when i originally mowed...so, its that nice spring growth.....heh...i only dream of every 4 days the rest of the summer...

[Garry]

Hey Scraper,

You very well may "try" to talk like me, but, you sure as heck don't spell like me.

What's mental maturbation?

What's a croud?

Wow, your invoices must be *a good reading*.

Come on y'all............................bring that organic matter on!

[Holloway Lawns]

It sue can be great that the grass is growing so fast in th spring time but I HATE customers who call for an estamate and you give them a good one even though the grass is knee high and they say you can cut for them all season but after that first cut they say we are going to cut it ourself to save the money. That burns me up.:blob2:

[Russo]

Garry,

It is pretty funny to read my spelling errors the next morning, but I noticed that you had nothing to say about my point.

BTW, you got my name wrong, "Brother".

I is good for speller, Garry, no for you to pick on me, pleeze.

[65hoss]

Like I said in my 1st post it took 2 times but I think I understood Garry's reasoning. Now, I'm pretty sure I was right.

I understand people's frustration, but it is true, you have to handle every lawn a little different. I've built my biz by being different and handling each customer for their circumstances. I don't want to be a one-size-fits-all shop or into mass production.

I'm a little surprised that it took you so long to bring up organic matter. I'm a huge fan of organics and the use of them whenever possible. Such as I have a 100% organic garden and the veggies are always awesome from it. Ok, thats another story.

Garry, I believe you have some valuable info. You just got started off on the wrong foot by attacking instead of relaying info.

[Russo]

I agree. Your info is always good, you just come off a little high and mighty. Don't change though. Your posts are the most fun to read. Dot Dot Dot. I love the back and forth points and you defininately stir things up and get me thinking.

Landscraper

[Garry]

Hey, that's a roger-roger, on the throttle-back of the attack mode system.

Thank you to all that understand where I'm comming from.

I use a "Radio Shack" spellchecker..............what a pain in the ass.

I before e, except, after c, unless, it ends in long i or it is spelled by me.

AND sometimes I'm so lazy.................I'll yell to my wife (who's a great speller) how to spell something. Christ, I can whip off those 20 letter science terms, no sweat....................but, something like *convience* (no check, how'd I do?).....it's con-veen-yence...............whatever.

I've already admitted there are things YOU know that I don't..............But, I'm personally gonna keep this thread alive, all of those who have personally e-mailed me in support.....................Well, I need your help too.

I wanna learn, just like you do.

Oh, I think we've just started...........................but, damn, we gotta long, long, way to go.

[Scraper]

Originally posted by Garry
Hey Scraper,

You very well may "try" to talk like me, but, you sure as heck don't spell like me.

What's mental maturbation?

What's a croud?

Wow, your invoices must be *a good reading*.

Come on y'all............................bring that organic matter on!

Please don't drag me into this....;)

[1grnlwn]

Ok since we are all singing Kumbaya I will join in. Garry LS has been pretty boring for the last couple of months, and if it weren't for you I would have had no one to argue with. I find that arguments are a good way to learn because you win or loose but you won't forget.

Holloway Lawns Thats really why they make 46-0-0.

Mark

[Garry]

So, how do we, as specialists in two completely different phases of care, ever find Nirvana?

We probably never will.......................and that's a damn shame.

But, maybe, we can work something out. We both agree the real trouble here is kick-butt, excessive growth during the spring. Combination wet and long grass, clogging machinery, heavy as all get out. Makes for a loooooong day.

You would freak if you ever relized what that does to a blade.................ONE day...(we used to put these blades under the microscope)...I still shake my head.

And when you're *kicking dust*...........................WOW, come cut my lawn next.

Uh, sorry..........I'm babbling again.

How can I personally have absolutely no problem with excessive top growth................NONE....when right next door the howling and moaning of both a stressed cutter AND his machine disrupt another tranquil morning.

Hmmmmmmmm, could it possibily be MY turf recieved three (3) fertilizer *treatments*......................while next door, this large truck pulls up.................oh, I'd say at least........7 or 8 times...Each time someone different would pull miles and miles of hose from the beast..........and proceed to get all the grass *wet*

Damn,..........Now that looks easy, them guys is lucky. Some days I miss those daze, today just ain't one of em.

I live in New England, it was 92 last Wednesday, then a cold front moved through, it's been raining and I've been cold the last three days....................This is great!

Incredible soil moisture..................Almost perfect.

Make no mistake about it, a good portion of my *job* is fairly easy..(well, to me anyway)....But, there are certain times of the season, I'm busting my chops right along with you. Twenty years ago, I could aerate/ lime all day..............come home, shower, and go chick-chasin all night..........3 hrs sleep, do it again. Those days are well behind me.......Hey, I'm ONLY 41, I can still whip a mean aerator............and yes, I will put 100lbs in my Lesco hopper. (excellent work out)............well, that and the fact I'm no way near perfect.

Here's an anology we used to use in regards to lime.......Mr Smith, at your soil pH (5.5 Rhode Island average)...If I were to give your lawn a dollar, it would only spend 12 to 20 cents of that dollar..............the soil's too sour...BUT, if I sweeten up the soil with a proper lime treatment and then give the lawn a dollar, it WILL spend 90 to 95 cents of that dollar.

Usually, then I launch into some Jr. high school chemistry lecture...(Cliff note like)

I end it with this............It's like getting 3 more fertilizers a year......not because I'm doing it and leaving you another bill, BUT, simply because your lawn can use the food it's already been given...................You're getting more value for your fertilizer dollar.

My God man, if they don't buy that.................Run!

Plants are made with 16 different atoms....................NOT 15...NOT17....................16! The vast majority (Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen) you have little control over...........Nitrogen makes up less than 2% of the plant. What's the big deal?

Everything the plant needs is in the soil (in more than enough quanity).....................It's all about chemistry, neutralize your soil acidity..................and let the feasting begin.

Pump oneself with candy bars and potato chips.............and run with fervor, my brother...but, when it gets hot and the days grow long, it is only those with balanced diet that prosper.

[fireball]

where is Lawrence Stone?

[Toroguy]

Your alright Garry, unusual but interesting.

[tgrebis]

Garry

Your posts are damn confusing. I was wondering where I can dig up some of the useful information that you have in your posts so that I can learn a bit about what you are saying. Any References(Books, literature, personal tutor sessions)?

Thanks

Tom Grebis

[LAWNS AND MOWER]

I make a motion that replies be limited to 200 words or less. I havn't visited lawnsite in a week, and reading Garry's posts are giving me a major headache. I can't even read the whole post without scrolling down to the next post. Get to the point.

LAWNS AND MOWER

[Garry]

There is no one magic book.............I scribe these words honed from 30+ seasons and thousands of lawns.

But, if you need to read (and yes, you do)......Turfgrass Science and Culture........by Dr. James B. Beard. (Go Aggies!)

OR anything by Dr. C. Richard Skogley...( THE true Messiah of turf.....God rest your soul)

OR, you can ask ME...(simply a phrophet, my head still bowed, even in his absence)


The very day you stop asking why.............................should be the very day you die.

In order to be a *expert* at plants, one would have to master........chemistry, physics, biology, micro biology, geology, botany, organic chemistry, and would probably have to be fluent in a few more.

And take it from one who's tried............................It is a complete excercise in futility.

You can also try, as strange as this sounds, asking the landscape...........Although, one must be well versed in the language of plants..................A language we humans percieve as "visual". What we call a symptom, is merely the plant telling you something is wrong..........................IF it's got great color, it's saying all is cool!

HOWEVER, just because you've got great color doesn't mean all is perfect..............Are the leaves wilted?..............how about any chomp marks?..........no funky splotches..............webs?.........etc.

Do you see where I'm going with this..........................or, am I just a space-shot?

My brother, I gave you one of my best analogies with the *dollar/lime*..................I've made a ton of money with that ..................Man, even the most "thick" homeowner has got that one.

It does, however, work best when done with the Rocky theme music playing in the background.

[Garry]

I find myself disappointed at a 3% response to this thread................I'm sorry if I'm comming across to strong.

I'm one of the few, that at the very least, has a grasp on the science of this business AND knows the hell you're going through from personal experience.

I know all about wet, ass-deep, grass that barely cuts and clogs.

I've dealt with many a *stressed* homeowner.

I know all about wet belts, dulling blades, irate/disappointed phone calls at 11 at night......................you guys are working your ass off....................I know you are.

I simply want to help.

AND even if I'm the only one who keeps this thread alive, I will.

For I can see by the number of views........................someone's getting some information that makes them think.

[65hoss]

At least in my area, the hardest part is getting people to realize the grass is a crop. Many think, "Well it looks fine" and they don't want to spend or do anything until damage is done. Its always a quick fix they want also. Soil is not usually a consideration. If you can't see those "little microbes" they must not be there. Right? :(

[John DiMartino]

Garry, the response rate is so low,because the reading isusually ben talked about before,,and its the busy season.I used to be on here a lot more,but lack of time,and repeated questions, gte you tired of responding.Your extreme rediculous ,and way to long posts are another reason to not bother reading,and click the back button.

[Garry]

And for that I apologize, my brother, I was only trying to help.

[ProMo]

I cut my lawns 1x a week if im cutting at 5 inches and cutting 50%off i havnt seen any damage and ive been doing this for over 10 years on the same customers

[Garry]

50% huh?, .........Hmmmm,.. Perhaps, our perception of quality differs.

That could be it.

[ProMo]

ive never had a complaint and my lawns look great and i dont double cut anything

[Garry]

Ahhhhh, The warm season grasses......................Uh, something I know nothing about.

We have a few Zoysia lawns around here, but, they're dormant most of the time.

Gorilla grass we call it............................I've seen it choke a mower down, many a time.

Tough stuff that gorilla grass is.

[65hoss]

Warm season grasses are more forgiving than cool season grasses. Actually, most of the time warm season grasses spread and grow everywhere you don't want them too.

[point]

Garry,
Your posts have been both interesting and informative.
Thanks, mark

[MATTHEW]

I really love it when I'm doing a lawn for the second time in a week and its an easy once over. The real problem here is that you have to limit your customer count to be able to hit them twice a week. Then in the summer, its tough to keep up with expenses when you are a solo guy and you're done by wednesday and scrambling to sell extras to fill in the gaps. Hence the reason to max out our schedules. I have dramatically reduced my mowing accounts, replacing them with lawncare customers. But for guys who basically mow and mulch, summer time can set you back unless you work every day.

[Toroguy]

MATTHEW,

Enjoy the light schedule that allows two a week visits, I'd have to clone myself to fit in a second cut in a week. Your focus on the quality will pay off in the long haul, like I said enjoy this time.

Garry,

The plants were all screaming today as I mowed them. One plant in particular, a real sly one, tried to lay down low as my mower passed overhead. It laughed as I rode away, until I got it on the second pass.

These perceptions were "audible". Of course being a sceptic I videotaped the incident figuring nobody would believe such a thing, unfortunately the tape was confiscated by government agents from the U.S Department of Agriculture. I eluded arrest by blaming the videotape on my imaginary friend, Guytoro.

[Garry]

Wow, Toroguy......................that's kinda cruel.

Why the second pass?


All that screaming.................................Damn, it gives me the creeps.

[Toroguy]

Garry,

The sly one, you know the one I said was laughing... I looked back and as it was photosynthesizing it gave me "the evil eye", I had no alternative. It was either the second pass or drop the customer because the plant humiliated me in front of his kingdom, or phylum? Anyway, one of those.

Im sorry it happened and I will seek counseling on Monday.

Continue with the instruction...

[Garry]

When you ignore the soil..........You ignore the very foundation the landscape is built upon.

Be very glad, those that build foundations for large buildings, aren't one tenth as bad at construction as we in the green industry are at the proper techniques regarding our foundation....................We call it the soil.

Easily, THE most ignored aspect of this business (?).........PROPER attention to the soils condition, both chemical AND physical, WILL result in you finding the solution to a huge part of your problems.

Read these words I scribe and contemplate them.................for embedded within these words is your fortune in *green*.........In your pocket, yes.......................but, most importantly, for all the world to see.

When you get real good at this stuff, you quickly find yourself a very high priced landscape specialist with a long waiting list.

You look over at a crew full of *scrubs*.....................and just kinda smile at the memories.......or see the *one size fits all, tanker of lawn-crack*.........................and just drop to one knee, laughing.

You must, in order to thrive, pay close attention to the soil................It's not "dirt",... as dirt is something we clean out from under our finger nails or sweep off the floor................We're talking about SOIL..........as in "plants grow in soil" and not in dirt.

That said,....................it's all downhill from here...(yeah, right)

Yes, it very well can get complicated, belive me, I completely understand, but, and until you both start asking why AND finding out the answer, how do you possibily expect to set your landscapes apart from the others.........................and that, my brothers, is what this game's all about.

Why do some of you need more "lawns"............when you walk by a ton of needed services right under your feet?

Oh, it grows too fast in the spring.................SOMETIMES that's your fault.

It doesn't grow in the summer..................that's yours too.

It's not green enough.................and that one.

Too many weeds, chomp marks, funky splotches, crabs, etc.......................Hmmmm, guess who?

If you're a lawn-cowboy, (and I don't care how you make your living)...........you're probably not going to get this far in the thread. I'm talking to those of you that have complete services OR management operations.

Kick back and contemplate, my brothers,..............These words can and will raise your landscapes up a notch or two...(or ten)

[tgrebis]

OK. You get this new lawn. It looks like ****. It has more weeds than grass. Its pretty shaded in spots with moss and dirt. It's basically one of those lawns that can be cut every two weeks. We are in the northeast. The dirt is clay. THe grass is the real thin type and very weak. Probably never been aerated. Customers has Chem lawn or whatever, and he thinks that this will magically bring his lawn back.

My question is, where do you start on this property if you want to turn it into a nice lawn.

Steps:

1
2
3
etc.

Thanks for the input.

[Garry]

Hey, this is a easy one...

Plants don't grow in dirt.................hmmm, I thought I mentioned that.

I'm not going to tell you how to do it, however, I will inform you on how to go about doing it.

[jeffex]

I was thinking the same thing FIREBALL We're not worthy

[lawnstudent]

Hey Garry,

Let's start with the basics and talk about aeration (air-ration) or oxygenation of the soil. Like you said you can't beat the soil enough. Most aerators put down 5 or 6 holes per square foot. If your soil has an air infiltration problem then what do you think 5 or 6 holes is going to do? Sure it helps but it sure could be better. Every extension service recommendation I've ever read is saying 15 - 20 holes per square foot. This is the starting point. Why does everyone continue to sell 5 or 6 holes? I sell my customers on 24 holes per sq. ft. I go back a week or two later and check out the lawns I've aerated and the effects are dramatic!!!!! What do you recommend?

jim

[tgrebis]

The way I am seeing this is that we start with the soil first, right. Aeration is great but before we do that we analyze the soil and see what it has and doesn't has. We need to look at the chemical and the physical. In this cause the physical is clay. How do we remedy this? Aeration and and then adding a medium to rake in to the lawn and the holes, Right? We also might need to change the Ph, and the nitrogen content. Is there a long term solution for changing Ph? What else besides nitrogen do we need to look at? I have seen whats called"earth mate",kind of like refined sewer sludge, raked in makes the lawn grow fast. But what exactly in this stuff makes it do that? WShat different mediums are there. I have seen mixtures at golf courses, but what exactly is all that stuff?

.After the soil is better then we can move on......

[Garry]

Replacing soil air with atmospheric air is called soil aeration. This process can be accomplished by many different means. From machinery (aerators)...to chemical (gypsum, numerous brand name stuff, etc.)...to soil amendments (sand, ceramic, volcanic, etc.)........it really doesn't matter how you do it, IN AS MUCH AS, the simple fact, you just DO it.

How many holes?........................Hmmmmm, check this out.

Let's take a room, 10 x 12ft.........let's pack it with 300-400 people.

Let's also seal it up tight.....(no air getting in or out)

Now, we wait.

1 hour.......................we're breathing.

6 hours.....................still breathing, but not as easily.

1 week.....................okay, alittle is better than nothing.

1 month.................-gasp-...still breathing..-gasp- okay.

1 year...3 years......7 years...15....20.........and on.

Hey, it's getting pretty nasty in there.

Now punch a hole in the roof!......................ahhhhhhh, that's nice.

Punch two..........that's even better..................punch four ......a collective sigh.........................eight...........................fourteen..............twenty-eight...................and on...(Hell, roto-till that sucker)

Think about THE most ignored aspect of this business for just a minute.............................think back on my little story.....................think about your best account...................back to my story....................that new account you just picked up.............my story. Hey, make a day of it.

Oh, by the way......................your 3 inch tines ain't doin much aerating much past 3 inches much as I hate to say it.

In the words of the great Prof. Noel Jackson (URI)..............Use the biggest tines and go as deep as possible (indirect quote......a long time ago).

If you have roots growing to a depth of 8 - 14 inches (or more)..............how you gonna aerate way down there?

Wow, I'd love to hear the conversation about more holes vs a few holes....................Hmmmm, that sounds like simple economics to me.

DO NOT be insulted by that!

You are bearing down on THE cornerstone of this industry.

You are asking the right questions the very same way you're taking the right path to sucess.........................and alot less heartache.

[Garry]

Hey, I got a story for you.....................stay with me, now.

There's this big desert, with a city to the north and one to the south..............and a path that runs between the two.

One day, a long, long time ago, a traveler comes across an old man tending to his crop of spindly, yellowish, bug-eaten vegetables...........small yield, rotten spots, etc.

No one was around....................just the old man.

The traveler walks up to the gentleman and says....." Dang, that's a sorry looking crop you got there.

The old man leans against his hoe, his eyes tells the story of many a *bad season*......................"Oh, try as I may, I'm finding it harder and harder to grow my food here in the desert"......."Every spring I plant................then I spend all my time, working my butt off for such little crop".

Hmmmm, the traveler replied....."have you tried dropping a fish in the hole as you plant"

Next year, the old man trys it....................it works, okay I guess, nothing special...................but, it is better.

Another traveler says.................."Hey, try two fish, cut the left eye out of one, put a handful of ashes from the fire in the hole too.

The old man trys it.......................this is great.

Next traveler says.................."Grind the fish up, add the ashes, put animal **** in the mixture and feed the plants every two weeks.

Of course he trys it............................Wow, massive crop...............except, the bugs have eaten and ruined alot of product.

A traveler tells him to light a fire and allow the smoke to drift through his crop, every time the birds in the area become active and fly counter clockwise.............................as this is a sure sign, the Bingo fly is around.

Next season is a GREAT season.............................more food than he can even eat.........................he finds himself giving the stuff away...................his belly full.

He should be feeling great.

The next traveler finds the old starring at his fine crop...............a tears runs down the old mans cheek as he quietly whispers........"if I only knew what I know NOW, along time ago, my wife and my children and my village, with its numbers plenty, would have survived and prospered".

The traveler reaches into his pack and pulls out a copy of *The Farmers Info Book*....................."Here, take this,...........this book has been around for years".

The old man takes the book, looks at the title, and says................"I already have this book, it sits upon my bookshelf..........but, I've been much too busy tending to my crops to do any reading"

His eyes wander to the book title...................Hmmmm, he wonders........................if I'd have just looked through this book years ago..........................I'd probably still have my wife and child and village, we'de be huge and powerful by now........................but, we are not......................there is only me, and I am old and tired.

The traveler pats the old man on the back and whispers in his ear, ever so lightly..."Old man, it works even better when you use water"

The old man drops to his knees and breaks into uncontrolable wailing.

Two seasons later, the old man passes on, and the crops wither and fade into the soil..........................gone.

His story is kept alive by strange people like myself...................because, alot of us wonder what you do with all the damn books on gardening you buy.

[lawnstudent]

Garry,

isn't it one damn gardening book in a hole before you drop in the seed and cover with soil? It improves the soil moisture holding ability of the soil.

jim

[lawnstudent]

tgrebis,

the time to amend the soil is before you install the truf. If you aerate and then top dress you better use the same soil type that exist under that turf. pH sure matters to the turf but not to them holes.


jim

[Garry]

Hmmmm,.... so then, if I amend a soil that is high in clay content, with anything other than clay, then I'm doing something wrong?

I amend clay with a ceramic particle medium, and sand (but hey, that's me)...............................a little volcanic slag....(I'm still working on this one)

My point being,

That sand ain't clay..................nor is the lava rock.

Where did I go wrong?

[Entropy]

Originally posted by Garry
Hey, that's a roger-roger, on the throttle-back of the attack mode system.

Thank you to all that understand where I'm comming from.

I use a "Radio Shack" spellchecker..............what a pain in the ass.

I before e, except, after c, unless, it ends in long i or it is spelled by me.

AND sometimes I'm so lazy.................I'll yell to my wife (who's a great speller) how to spell something. Christ, I can whip off those 20 letter science terms, no sweat....................but, something like *convience* (no check, how'd I do?).....it's con-veen-yence...............whatever.

I've already admitted there are things YOU know that I don't..............But, I'm personally gonna keep this thread alive, all of those who have personally e-mailed me in support.....................Well, I need your help too.

I wanna learn, just like you do.

Oh, I think we've just started...........................but, damn, we gotta long, long, way to go.

I think what most people find annoying is your polarized, condescending demeanor. I think many people here have a symbiotic relationship between themselves and thier sprayer counterpart, and take it as a matter of business operation. You, however, seem to delight in reading your own words, not unlike the inevitable guy at a party whose thrill his hearing himself talk incessantly to a group of nonplussed listeners.

You may have some good insight, but I think you're ignoring the shades of gray in which conversations like this find their balance.

Incidentally -- and spelling aside, because we all gaff the keyboard now and again -- sentences are not typically separated by .........................., even in the most eccentric scientific convention.

IMHO, of course.

[Garry]

I'm sorry you feel that way, my brother.....................I'm humbled.

[MATTHEW]

?

[MATTHEW]

You guys should have started a new thread. The icon is starting to smolder.

[tgrebis]

Garry,

I am not offended. As to the holes, what you put into the holes becomes the turf or the underlying soil which the turf grows in. Garry, I believe you mentioned you use to work on a golf course. How deep to they go? I would like to go deeper than 3 inches, but unfortunately, many aerators don't go too much deeper and on lawns with sprinkler systems you are asking for a load of trouble.

To recap:

In clay soil, I imagine some sand and organic matter swept into the holes would improve the soil. I seems that this would aslo be a good time to change the ph as you can get deeper into the soil faster. Will putting lime in your mix damage anything?

Right after you aerate also seems the time to overseed. All that soil laying around makes for better germination. Most of the very poor lawns haven't seen any new or quality seed for 10 to 20 years probably. I believe the newer cultivars are probably better than they were 10 to 20 years ago. Any favorites Garry?

[HOMER]

Dang,

It's over? Already?

I feel as if I've reached the end of the internet.:(

Gary has many a good point. Unfortunately some people just want that aggrevating grass cut...that's it....nothing more.

We could have 5 customers that wanted the whole 9 yards and starve or 50 that wanted that green stuff cut to the roots and eat.

Some areas are not as keen on appearance and soil structure as others.

Preach on brother, I think your gaining a "following".

At least I can apply some of these principles to my own 1.5 acres and see what does what.

I will no doubt be putting an ear to the grass blade and listen for their comments.

[Garry]

Here's where I get most of my information.

[Russo]

That's the funniest lookin mower I ever doodly done seen before.


I think you are reaching some people, old boy............ You got me thinking that we at least need an IPM forum instead of a Fertimitizer and Pesticide forum......................... I call IPM integrated "plant" management, not pest management...................Indeed we do have a long way to go.................and it will take a long time for us to get there..............................................some of us are still putting clay in our holes......OUCH....................I'm still gonna do what the cutomer wants most of the time, but it's good to raise the bar by asking your snotty questions, for we spend much time on here trying to raise the bar regarding our prices...................

[lawnranger44]

It definitely sucks! I've had more than one client tell me to mow at a lower height, when I'm already cutting too much off. I try to explain to them how unhealthy it is, but all they see is maybe they could skip next week's mowing and save some $$$.....

[Garry]

Don't you see, it's very possible we'll never agree on the same page of *the book*..................some say, we are forever destined to be at war.

Be it the owner vs cut crew.

Owner vs landscape specialist............(mismatch)

Specialist vs cut crew............(Hey, no 5 on one....man)

All three of us.. vs...The weather, bugs, fungus, water, no water, poor soil, ect....................(something's gonna die by the end of this one)

YEAH, RIGHT................that's the biggest bunch of bull.

Are you going to sit there and tell me, there is nothing you can do to shore up your agronomics.......................because, if you can, I've gotta a million questions for you.

Go back to the post where I broke down this business.......................that middle 50% is what, for the most part, drives this industry AND feeds your families.............I knows that.

I'd love to have a company called *Kickin Grass*..................or, better yet, *Ambivalent Lawn*............................my motto was to be..."when you don't care...belive me,...we don't either"

[Garry]

We were talking of mow height vs length of plant.........let's also add...forward speed, width of cut, sharpness of blade(s), frequency of cut, seasonal weight total of all machines to soil compaction ratio, collective crown damage from "tight-turn" mowers, machines as fungal vectors, etc.

Tell me, how does one of these mega-thousand dollar mowers, with the double digit horsepower, stress itself, or worse,......clog?

My God, man.............I come from the late sixties, early seventies.............2 horse, push, pull, clog, stall, ..........try to start, can't...............swear, try again, push, pull, clog, stall.....repeat process..............2.5hrs/10Mft2, during *the rains*.

Why are you even picking up those clippings?

Mulching mowers are your path to sucess and freedom.

Oh yeah, that's right..................it's those dang homeowners, the very ones whom pay our tolls.

Hey, what if we just did it?......................everyone get mulching mowers, graph out the growth process of the plant in your area, keeping in mind that, even though the frequency of cut will be greater in the spring *growth* season, IT WILL, even out as the plant slows in its growth...............submit a yearly contract that simply claims the lawn will be cut AND presentable,...................on your terms (you are the expert, aren't you?)

You will be working like the dog, during the *spurt*..................but, both chillin, and doing other profitable chores during *the 100 days of death*.

There, my brothers, the solution to the *out the window with the 1/3 rule*

AND proper use of growth regulators can almost eleminate the need for summer wacking...........................Uh, weed wacking that is.

Not only do they not want to see you, hear you, pay you...............if you play your cards right, you've already done most of the work and you've already got most of your money.

Go with the yearly contract...................break it down....if you're gonna screw up, err in your favor (lotta rain/cool nights)..........drought, you win.

Tell them this also frees up both time and manpower for other things.....................you know, the things that seperate your landscapes from the others.

Hey, if you have to start mowing real early to start off on the right foot..........you might want to look into either the owners OR your Nitrogen useage and timing.

There really shouldn't be a problem.

[lasher66]

I think the one third rule is good if you are maintaining your own lawn and can mow it twice a week. For most of us that only mow our customers on a weekly basis can not go by the one third rule. The grass is growing so fast right now, if you only took a third off every week, the grass would get higher every week and before you know it you will be cutting at 5 in. Oh well just my thought.

Lasher66

[Garry]

Although, I was born in the morning, it wasn't, this morning.

I fully relize this won't jive with a huge portion of your 50% brand............but, even if you start with just a few, you'll be getting there.

Hmmmm, the Beatles just came on the radio....................Revolution, I think it is.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Garry come on you keep going and repete or say ablolutly nothing.

Unless you control the food for the lawn, the 1/3 rule "IS" out the window.

The lawns I feed are easily mowed. If the "others" do it, they are growing a foot or so a week, and the customers want them mowed to 3" or 3.5" no matter what.

If we were to follow your rules we would either be out of biz, or mowing every 3 days, and they wont pay for that.

So I will still and always mow my heathly lawns including the ones others feed to the height I mow at.

You are not telling anyone that has some knowladge of turf or plants anything they don't know.

[Garry]

Well of course, and it's all because we're forever to deal that thing we call the homeowner.

Uh, unless you're like me, and have to deal with something we call "the cut crew".

I'm the one who said it wouldn't work,... didn't I?........uh,... No, I didn't, I said... it wouldn't work for everybody.

Whoa, my brother, I've been out there........................I've personally spoken to the old lady on the fixed income, as she mumbles something about NOT cutting the grass this week (this, of course only happens...

AFTER you've unloaded all your stuff, fired them mowers up, and done a border pass.......................Christ, 1/4 of the wacking's done.

Oh, I see............so this is the site that only people who know this industry inside and out, converse about their everyday agronomic plights, in a totally professional manner.

I didn't relize that.................................sorry.

Damn, I kinda embarassed to admit to the stash of useful information I've GATHERED on this site.......................dang, I ain't even posed to be here.

[Garry]

Oh, and another thing.........I use my full real name, my numbers in the book (Warren, RI), Whitebirch621@cs.com.....(personal e-mail).

Phone's right here, I'll pick up.

Or, just stop by........I'll show you my lab, then we'll do a *scape-run*

Hey, I'm 15 mins from Newport....................It's dang beauitful round here.

This is my style of writing....................I chose it based on a principle,... that in conveying information AND getting ones point across..........................Some, will find it good/useful..........while others, dwell on its delivery.......But, good or bad, it simply can not be ignored.

Perhaps, this is why they made a back button on these computers.

[Garry]

So, what you're saying (or at least as I'm hearing it) is that although we are using *state of the art* equiptment and techniques.....................we will continue to *DO BUSINESS* in the same manner as our fathers and grandfathers before us.

Wow, that sounds kinda stupid.

[Garry]

Here's a shot of a huge part of my company equiptment.........................One man, in one little truck............................This rig brings in well over one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a season.

Hmmmmm, imagine that.

[65hoss]

Some my not like his delivery but the content is easy to tell its from real life experience combined with lots of study. Some may even take it as a personal attack because of practices they do. We are all guilty of sometimes not doing the text book way, but that is also real life.

Everyone needs to think about the best way to handle things. Always thinking, always looking for better ways, always looking for opportunities. Some may not like Garry, but look at the number of views this thread has. People want to info.

This stuff can be very interesting to learn. Looks like the interest in this thread has been amazing.

[KerryB]

Okay this may be a stupid question but here goes.
On the lawns you have that are growing rampant why not use a growth regulator?
Mind you I am just asking. Around here we deal with centipede, Zoysia, Bermuda mostly. So we dont use one but why cant you use one on these lawns that need to be cut so often?

[Garry]

My brother, THE only stupid question, is that one, which is never asked.

As usual, alot of the NON USE of growth regulators can be traced back to economics AND simple ignorance to the fact that it can be used and how to use it.

I personally use it alot on my ornamentals......................Man, mist an azeala (after petal drop).........................you can hear the brakes screeching.

Hey, your accounts will bow down upon your arrival....................if ya thickin up them shrubs for them.

If you're rich and the timing's right, use growth regulators on everything..................but, I'm kinda rich, and I don't use it on large turf stands.

But hey, that's just me.

[Garry]

Take thy scribe as the ramblings of a madman..................or, take as conveyed information from someone with insight.

And the balls to simply say it like it is...........................just like we would if we were having lunch on the tailgate, parked at some job site.

I will not attack you, I will not think you're stupid, I will not insult you or your views, .....................for like Ghandi, and King, I will preach peace and understanding......................no, not between the races,........dang, I'm just a landscape specialist, not a leader of a whole people,........but, between my brothers in green (that's you guys)

Hmmmmm, are over 3500 people "just looking"?...............If just 1% has listened................I've reached 35 brothers.

Some of that advise can make you *an extra* 4 - 5 thousand dollars, no problem..........................Hmmmm, if that's the case.............I just brought in over 120 grand............easy.

10%.........................and I'm a millionaire.

[Garry]

There you go....................the thread title above me (at the moment) talks about skipping the week (I wonder what that one's about?).

My God, man..................how can you guys live like that?

That's like someone grabbing one end of your pork chop, just waiting to rip it out of your mouth.................while the other hand, grabs the other chop... upon your plate.

You can't preform at 100% if your butt's tight, and what businessman want's to talk indepth with someone fixed on saving money?

Okay, okay............first year to prove yourself, but after that, let's talk business. I personally operated in an extreme personal state.............that is, you are Bob and Peggy, whether you're a bank president, or a lawyer......................Unless, you're a Dr................Then, I call you Doctor.

Plus, all that paperwork, extra miles (you know the ones), phone calls, letters, lawyers, collection companies, etc.

Alot of the crews in my area, drive the streets with stealth, scanning.............ready, at moments notice, to leap from the truck, with rebel-like yell, and plunge a knife into the backs of their green brothers.........................all this grisly stuff for a choice landscape.

You should see some of my *water-views*..........................Oh my God!......................The east bay of Rhode Island is one of the greatest places to do what I do.

I'm a lucky guy.

[MATTHEW]

Well that picture answers alot of questions! I did not see a mowing service unit behind that rig. Its easy to explain the agronomic side of the issue, but try to explain the economic side of it to Mrs. Jones who can't afford $25 cuts 3X a week. Turf maintenance is a tough business. It comes down to the customers perception and budget. And the comment about the "others" who fertilize lawns, they have to remember that the ones pumped up with nitrogen may have thin cell walls and increased potential for disease, but the ARE greener. And when the neighbors lawn is greener, some folks get downright nasty about it. You can use 3/4 lb rates of 80% SCU, and have less growth, but a lot of people couldn't care less about the health factor. They want it greener than the next one. I am a firm believer in chelated iron applications during peak growth periods.

[Garry]

In order for this to work, we gonna have to break it down, if for any other reason, we should at least find out who we're talking about in the green industry... that in any way contributes to the defoliation process.

If your idea of *lawn care* is screwing through a 10Mft2 .........in seven minutes (cut,wack,blo,&go)............and using a four-step candy bar & potato chip *program*.........well, I'm not talkin to ya.

That's a life-style, my brother..............................been there, done that.

Then there must be, at the very least ,some of you that are responsible for complete landscapes. Lawn programs, establishment, shrubs/trees, beds, etc.

There will always be a market for *The mow & Go*..................That's how America works, it's all about THE DEAL!

Dang, if ya think about it...........................it's kinda a chore alot of people don't wanna do, but, must be done.

[Garry]

Why is it, the green industry (probably one of the most visible industries in America)...seems to be viewed by the public, as a profession that requires little talent, education, experience,.................or, for that matter, respect.

Man, I couldn't function properly, if I knew I was one grandson, who's starting a grass cutting summer business, away from losing food off my table....................or a meager $5 reduction in a price quote, or any number of bullshirt excuses I've gathered over my many years out there.

Let's take a small little pick up truck (10 yrs/rotten).................let's add a lawnmower (okay, a nice one...???)............cheap wacker,.....a broom(?)

Whadda ya got?................................a LCO!

The man at the wheel?.........................................IS a lawn EXPERT.

And how do I know that?

Because they ALL are..................................every dang one of em.

Picture this................A lady walks out into a supermarket parking lot, as she's putting her bags in the car, she notices a man sitting in a car with boxes of tools, and a ladder tied to the roof of his car. She approaches the man, clears her throat, and says........Uh, excuse me, mister...........I'm having some electrical work done at my home by BIG BUZZ INC.................they're going to start working soon,... but Wow, they want ALOT of money to do the job.........................perhaps, you could take a look at it...........maybe, I'll save some money.

The man sitting in the car smiles to himself......................Hmmmm, todays gonna be a good day.

Ah, sure lady, where ya live?

Then there's this...

I've been standing with a client as a *lawn care corporate type*.................actually has the stones to walk up and start raking the company she has (whadda mow job).....................that, my brothers, is just plain rude (among other things)

But, it is an acceptable practice in the green industry, in fact, there are times, it's looked at as a standard.

Not only does the weather and our ever changing climate place a gun to your head everyday, but, and one must relize, it is homeowner ambivalence coupled with OUR OWN in-fighting that gives this industry its bad name.

[ohiolawnguy]

seeing as though we have been pulling 65- 70 hour weeks every weeks so far this year, i dont have time to visit as much as id like to.(we have five employees, including the owner, one mowing crew, and one landscaping crew) and i didnt read all these posts either. but, the one third rule just plain had to be thrown out the window.

we serice 91 accounts a week, and the week of april 15-20, virtually every yard was a foot tall. some of these lawns had already been mowed the week prior. when the grass is a foot tall, and our mowers can only cut as high as 4.52" on walk behinds, and 5" on riders, it would be physically impossible to follow the one third rule.

one lawn in particular, which just so happens to be feriized by TGCL was mowed at 2.5" on april 11th. when we returned on april 18th, all could say was HOLY S***! the grass was 18" tall throughout the entire yard, and that is not an exagerration at all. we charged them extra for this, and if they complain, i will talk to TGCL personally, and TGCL can eat the cost.(it was their fault for this. the put down 46-0-0. then 10 days later, they put down their preemergent application-thanks a lot is what I say) basically they have to kiss my butt, because they don't want to lose this fertilizing account. they make way too much profit on it. we don't even want the fertilizing account because the customer is extremely picky about seeing even one weed in the lawn, or else we would already have it.

yes, a lot of lawns around northeast ohio do not look very healthy at this point. they are of a pale green, and some are even yellow. it is a shame, but unfortunately, there was no way around it.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Originally posted by Garry
Why is it, the green industry (probably one of the most visible industries in America)...seems to be viewed by the public, as a profession that requires little talent, education, experience,.................or, for that matter, respect.

Man, I couldn't function properly, if I knew I was one grandson, who's starting a grass cutting summer business, away from losing food off my table....................or a meager $5 reduction in a price quote, or any number of bullshirt excuses I've gathered over my many years out there.

Let's take a small little pick up truck (10 yrs/rotten).................let's add a lawnmower (okay, a nice one...???)............cheap wacker,.....a broom(?)

Whadda ya got?................................a LCO!

The man at the wheel?.........................................IS a lawn EXPERT.

And how do I know that?

Because they ALL are..................................every dang one of em.

Picture this................A lady walks out into a supermarket parking lot, as she's putting her bags in the car, she notices a man sitting in a car with boxes of tools, and a ladder tied to the roof of his car. She approaches the man, clears her throat, and says........Uh, excuse me, mister...........I'm having some electrical work done at my home by BIG BUZZ INC.................they're going to start working soon,... but Wow, they want ALOT of money to do the job.........................perhaps, you could take a look at it...........maybe, I'll save some money.

The man sitting in the car smiles to himself......................Hmmmm, todays gonna be a good day.

Ah, sure lady, where ya live?

Then there's this...

I've been standing with a client as a *lawn care corporate type*.................actually has the stones to walk up and start raking the company she has (whadda mow job).....................that, my brothers, is just plain rude (among other things)

But, it is an acceptable practice in the green industry, in fact, there are times, it's looked at as a standard.

Not only does the weather and our ever changing climate place a gun to your head everyday, but, and one must relize, it is homeowner ambivalence coupled with OUR OWN in-fighting that gives this industry its bad name.

This is good. Very true. Now you are talking!!!

[65hoss]

I own a hammer. Wonder if I could build someone a mansion?

I will say, some companies and people do get more respect. Many times its in the way you carry yourself and speak with your clients that will elevate your "status" in their eyes. Many times people can see thru the BS'ers. Confidence isn't something that can be faked. Confidence is also something earned.

[Garry]

Yet, always remember...................There are things in life that are much more important.

I knows what's like to be happy.

I know what's like to feel sad... (goodbye Drew, some of us will always love you)

I know what jublation is.

In the words of Gino Cappeletti (Patriots broadcaster during THE kick that won it)


IT"S GOOD!............IT"S GOOD!..............IT"S GOOD!

[Garry]

Gentlemen, THE pinnicle of American sports is making the Wheaties box.......................just lookin at it gets me all pumped up.



46-0-0 at this time of year (you sure?)...................Christ, what do you say about something so irresponsible? Just knowing that some will, even in their wildest dreams, do things so agronomically wrong...........for money (of all things)...makes me both sick and embarassed we're in the same profession.

Hey, you wanna get rich doin lawns, don't ya?......................Just play *the numbers game*, buy lotta cheap stuff, piss off a couple hundred thousand people with a ton of calls, have virtually no service (and that's a easy one).........................and blame EVERYTHING on the weather.

If you ain't a millionaire in five years............................sorry my brother, but this may not be your game.

Hey, when they gave that lawn the mega-dose of lawn-crack, did they happen to be wearing masks?...........well, seeing as how they're blatantly ripping the homeowner off..... Oh, there's no doubt, they WILL recieve *a lawn treatment*...PLUS...the incredible knowledge possesed by the representive (yeah, right)..........But, the bottom line being, they're doing way more agronomic harm than good.

If car mechanics performed even half as bad as some of us at our jobs.............ALOT of people, (around here anyway), would be in the pokey.............................myself included, as I'd choke the life out of anyone that treated my truck, in the same manner as I've seen some professionally done landscapes.

You want green?

Have you ever heard of Milorganite?....................if not, look into it.

There's a time of the season, when all is lush and green, growth spurts plenty as the cool rains fall..........................ahhhhh, even the sides of the busy highway look nice.................as does old Mr Simmons's yard (and he does NOTHING)........................Wow, check this out, everyone's turned *yard-freak*.

You think so, do ya?

GREEN is GREEN!.............................Oh, it's a different SHADE of green you want.

I see,....You ain't gonna get it with Nitrogen.

I'd look into Iron..................................or, adjusting the pH.

Or both.

Everything here in New England is puff............everyone looks different shades of pretty good.............BUT, and mark these words.............in two months time, when we're sitting here sweating our congos off, I'll ask you about the lawns color.............whadda ya gonna say then?

[Garry]

Hey, belive it or not, that reminds me of a story.

There once was these three houses snug in this cute little Cul de sac in this quaint little town.

The house on one side was a huge, modern, mansion................with thousands of square feet of the finest sod available..........a complete, state-of-the-art watering system, full-time grounds crew.......the works.

To the other side sat a modern, but, not too up-scale home............a young husband and wife, are busy raising their three young children, money's tight, so, although the landscape is important, there are many pressing needs, that drain both their time and finances.

Sitting in the middle...........since 1928..............Mrs Bertha Goodwyn, former garden club president...................in a delightful old cottage, her late husband built with his own two hands.

As the season starts...

The mansions full time cut crew, with mowers ah-blazin.................make pass after pass, their heavy feet(?) pound away at the soil...................Tankers of lawn crack line the streets, waiting to spew their potion. The few weeds that somehow survive the initial onslaught.............are hunted down and killed slowly with poison or ripped from their homes and thrown in a bucket.

My God, this place looks good in the spring!

The young husband and wife, in between work and child chores, somehow manage to get a four-step program going (Hey, they said it was easy, on that commerical on tv)...............Not much, but, the best they can muster.

My God, this place looks good in the spring!

Then, there's Mrs Goodwyn, bless her heart............................all alone, in her eighties, and her son lives 60 miles away (plus, he's a no-good, lazy, slob, that will only help if you pay him).............the lawn doesn't get cut as often as it should, but, the old lady can still drag some mean hose...and, with her well, there's plenty of water to go around. She smiles to herself at the thoughts of days past and how she dreamed of retiring, from her chemistry teaching position at the local high school, to spend her twilight doing what she loved most........................Gardening.

The grass will need cutting soon, she knows.....

My God, this place looks good in the spring!

Well, the season wears on................the days grow long and hot.

A scout team of European chafer beetles makes a lazy pass overhead (the leader, circles its location on a map)

Well trained sences can feel the fungal spores abound...............all, is not well.

The mansion crew grinds through the summer, with the roar of steel horses, and another turf stand unified......................the smell of insecticide hangs in the air......it smells of victory.

The young couple, watch the mansion in envy...................as their 3 kids run amonk over the lawn..................Their four-step, has now become a six step (just a little snack, won't hurt nothing).....................and the Mrs, she waters that WHOLE lawn every/all day! (unless it's raining).......................she even makes her old man mow that sucker (real short).....(and use the bag).......(and give it another shot of dope, its starting to look tired)...........and, the famous line......"if ya got time, do it again, or clean out the garage.....go in and clean up that mess you made,... just do something" (you married guys know the buzz)

Mrs Goodwyn, bless her heart, relizing she's not as strong as in her youth, must leave the sprinklers running for long, infrequent intervals, somehow got her lazy-ass son to put 10 bags of lime down, and, for an early Mothers day present.........a May shot of a cheap, but, balanced fertilizer. She spends a little "mad" money on an aeration she sees advertised in the local paper. Her son and a boy from across the street take turns mowing, still using the old *Jake* his father owned many years before. No bag, "let those clippings fly", momma said...................."it's hard to adjust, so we keep it high".

Man, it started gettin hot, and dry, and sticky, yuck.........................and it stayed hot, dry, and sticky.

And on the very morning of the neighborhood landscape judging contest, held every year in August (you get your picture in the paper and everything).......................It was hot, dry and sticky.

The town was not a pretty sight....................drought and grub ravaged landscapes abound, the judges began to conclude "this is going to be a bad year... as I've yet to see even a hint of green"....."we've one more cul-de-sac to inspect and we'll somehow declare a winner"

They round the corner...................and there it is.

The most deep, dark, green, lush, stand of turf in all the town.

"We've found our winner", the judge exclaims!

A crowd rushes to the door of the old widow, flashbulbs pop.

They knock upon the door.

The old widow, on the phone to her "lazy-ass" son, is still steaming at him for not cutting the grass before the judging............."How you do that to ya momma, boy?, she scolds.

"You just wait one minute, while I answer the door, son..........I'm not done with you yet", she snaps at the boy.

She answers the door, flashbulbs pop, someone hands her a dozen roses and places a crown upon her head...................Upon being informed of her victory.................she thanked all involved in the care of her landscape.

Silently, she thanks all of those involved in the care of the landscapes AROUND her.

[Garry]

There's not one shred of evidence that proves Mrs Goodwyn is my own mother OR that, it is I, that is her "lazy-ass" son.

At least I don't think so at this time.

[parkwest]

Did Phil's A-1 auto-response get stuck on this thread?

[Toroguy]

Good points Garry, or should I say Mr. Goodwyn.

I miss A-1, oh wait a minute, no I dont. Phil hasn't been around either to antagonize the masses.

[dmk395]

We might be on to something.

[Garry]

Here's the problem with the green industry..................It's the simple fact, any Joe can "be a landscaper".

We've made that point..........quit beating a dead dog.

The next biggest problem (and boy,is it a doozy).................There's no *cook-book recipe* for what we do............there's nothing written in stone...ask ten people the same question.....you end up with ten different answers.

Ask me, and it's eleven...........And, the answer's long and drawn out.

I always found that even professors in the same system had opposing views...........................I caught a great shouting match between two Dr's...(both with one foot out the door, they'de been there so long)

Well guys, it's 22 years later.....................and we've now found out that both of them were completely wrong.

So there.

We're dealing with variables here.........Weather, plant types, soil conditions, economics, competition, unrealistic expectations,...........I mean, this list can go on and on.

Do you ever wonder how a *scrub* can just roll your butt................for five lousy dollars?

BECAUSE, it's becoming *word up,yo*...on how fast you're moving these days...........Be it, length of time ON site OR the incredible speeds being attained by your mowers during *The beating*.

Tell me where it's written, that a man with mower shall render, finely shorn, thousands of square feet of the finest turf in the quickest time possible.

Oh, nobody's gonna tell you that, because, they just wanna build and sell bigger and faster and more expensive mowers, that make your life sooooooooo easy.

I've seen this business change so much in the last 30 years, and what I'm about to say might very well piss a man off, but... uh, if they make it much easier.....and you can even move faster across the lawns..................DON"T expect your prices to go much higher, nor, should you ever expect to rid yourself of your *scrub* problem.

I'll see on this site time and time again, how customers want you to use 21 inch push mowers.................Chests puff, as response after response claims something like "It's my 48" or nothing".............They don't give two shirts about mowers size..............It's all about the time it takes you....Pure and simple.

If for one minute, you belive a house with a unanswered doorbell is always empty...................be very careful while peeing in the bushes.

And that old, nosy, neighbor across the street (the bird-watcher).................she's ALWAYS watching.

My brother, relax.....................I might not even be talking to you OR about you.

And keep that winter job............................"Ya mon, come to the islands fer da winta"... (you work ON the course I play.....they pay good American help well)......................Hey, you want fries with that?

I can count on one hand the sucess stories I've seen as a result of twenty-plus years behind a mower.....................But, I have met more than my share of guys with big beer-bellies, loud television sets, and a couple ah ex-wives....THAT COULDN"T CHANGE with the times.

[FrankenScagMachines]

Garrry,
you have some interesting points, but you present it in a manner that makes it impossible to keep up with-
Your posts are way too long, and there are usually more than one in a row.................................. You abuse the period key on your keyboard and you really need to stop the "my brother" stuff, makes you sound like some rapper from a ghetto you know?............................................. Posting multiple long ones in a row makes it way too hard to keep up with this thread............................... Sometimes it's hard to figure out what exactly you are saying, and it's almost always hard to figure out your point, if there is even one...................................... Another thing is, even though you are likely right about this stuff, it cannot and will not be practiced just as you say.......................................... It just isn't practical....................................... No one will pay for 3 mowings a week to stay within the 1/3 rule and no one gives two peices of **** if it takes you twice as long to make it look good or takes twice as many visits.......................................... They just won't pay for it. I know if i was in their shoes, I wouldn't either. It's silly to spend that much time and money on a yard. I like a good appearance, and I don't use any fertilizer or chemicals of any kind on my lawn, but it looks best on block even compared to neighbors who use a bunch of junk.......................................... But my cut height and mowing techniques is what wins it. The neighbors don't know how to properly cut and they cut too low................................................. People have this thing where they think that short grass looks good. It really don't. It's yellow and brown and scalped - you know. ....................................

Try to cut back on posting and limit your words so that people can keep up with this thread and actually be able to understand your good points. No wonder it has so many views- people have to come back every fifteen minutes to see what other books you have written in that time on here............................................................ jeez slow down ok?
here's my lawn w/o any chems or ferts etc.

[FrankenScagMachines]

If this isn't the right shade of green, you're in the wrong business, meaning you should be a banker....

[Garry]

I apologize...yes, it's never been said that Garry's at a loss for words.

Yo, I'm from the Hill (Fereral Hill, Providence, RI)..............I grew up amist concrete and steel..................tough place, that Hill was!

Embedded deep within the belly of science itself is the simple fact....................................that, if we trace back the lineage of the human female..................we find that EVERYONE in the world today, once had the same mother.

she lived in central Africa many, many, moons ago.

Yes, my brother, in some small way we are all brothers AND African Americans too.

Go back and review some of my posts as sometimes, I must admit, I get side-tracked at times............I've given you some strong ideas.

Hmmmm, at least I've got your attention.

I'm game with that.

[lawrence stone]

Originally posted by BushHogBoy


Try to cut back on posting and limit your words so that people can keep up with this thread and actually be able to understand your good points. No wonder it has so many views- people have to come back every fifteen minutes to see what other books you have written in that time on here

Who are you to tell this gentleman what to do?

You are a 15-year-old punk ass kid.

Go play in traffic little boy.

The PROBLEM with this site is that it caters to children much like you vs. any seasoned real professionals.

That's why all of the old guard is gone.

[LawnPro in NC]

This thread could get verrrrrry intresting real soon.......I'll just stay tuned.

Keep the info coming. Just had to get my name on the board.

LOOKING and LEARNING lots of knowledge out there just gotta know where to get it.

[SLS]

Garry,

I, for one, enjoy reading your posts.

I appreciate that you take the time to share your knowledge, views, and ideas.

Keep 'em coming.

Although my market area would never pay for 3 cuts a week (some cry at the thought of weekly service!) I still feel that the info you are sharing is useful...even if it is on our personal lawns. Like Mrs. Goodwyn, I too would enjoy a dozen roses and a crown........at least every now and then.

Thanks, Garry. :)




BushHogBoy:

When YOU start paying for the bandwidth here then YOU can feel free to start telling people how to post. Until then........:rolleyes:

[MikeLT1Z28]

tylenol! i neeeed, tylenol!

damn, i just read the whole thing, page one to here. it's not bad enough that i am tired, sore from my new toy i got, but now i feel like i have been studying, no, make that cramming, a whole semester of college material in about 30 mins.

must... get... sleep... :cry:

[David Haggerty]

God made us brothers..Prozac makes us friends

I think it's time someone took a pill.


But, to talk about lawncare. It seems like the concensus of this thread is that customers won't pay for cutting grass as it needs cut.

It ain't true!

I've found twenty customers who get their lawn cut "as needed"

Some of you may say big deal! Twenty customers! How much grass could he be cutting? Well, whoever you are, the answer is: More than you!

Some customers were harder to convert than others. But if you give them what they need instead of what they want, they soon change to wanting what they really need.

Sure I'm busy in the spring. That's when the grass grows! I'm working today. Some couch potatoes are going to say "I wouldn't work on Sunday for a thousand dollars!"

That's where the difference is, because I would.

Dave

[Garry]

You be very careful.........................As one really should look outside the bounds of science with any talk pertaining to God.

If you found twenty...........there's a ton of proof this will work.

Realistically, we're only looking at *spurt growth* for a couple of months at best. During that time, as you're working your ass to the bone, remember this,...............all those times you had to double cut (extra time, extra wear on you and the machines, etc).................You did it the second time for FREE!

Now, let's jump ahead to July, shall we?

All those beatings...all this heat....all this dryness...........Damn.

The note taped to the door says..."Do NOT cut this week, do NOT collect x-amount of dollars".

So, how do you feel now?...........................as you wipe the sweat from your brow and get back in the truck, headed home................you'de better start thinking up some good ones for the old lady, when she starts asking why you're home so early.....again.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Originally posted by Garry
Here's a shot of a huge part of my company equiptment.........................One man, in one little truck............................This rig brings in well over one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a season.

Hmmmmm, imagine that.

Small!!!!

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Here is what I apply with. I just use that as a nurse tank now.

[Garry]

Bush Hog Boy,

You gotta be jiving me, little brother.

I've got alot more seasons *cutting bullets* under my belt than you've been on the scene...................But, the stones you exhibit do impress me.

Your downfall started with the *lines* on the bottom right hand corner of your shot...............see how they drift upward to the left.

Once your fist line is screwed.........................so are you for the remainder of the cut..............................we used to use two sticks with string as a guide. (two minutes of your time and all the world knows you can cut the line)

Bottom of the shot shows alot of turf damage from machinery...............what's up with that?

As for the snot color you're getting all worked up about.....................look real good at the grass that's NOT cut.............Now that's green!

Stay cool, little brother.....................I'm semi-impressed with the way you're going about it.........................keep it up!

When you're cutting lines, remember this...................do a border pass (chute out, right)...............THEN, go to your *least distance traveled* line....................sometimes, it's only a couple of feet.

The smaller the distance traveled, the less likely *drift* will occur.

But, if you're gonna be one of those guys that cruise down the middle (Big banana cut on the way).........because you think you're soooooooo damn good (Oh,... so, you're one of the 5 guys)...................Remember this, my friend.

When one follows a line that is crooked...............all lines that follow will bend to follow the line that is crooked.

Or something like that.

[lawnworker]

lawence stone where have you been. I miss your words of wisom and your frugal money saving ideas.

[Garry]

God father,

I love that rig ya got...................they are money makers, are they not?

But, what the fork is that monster you're putting down the *lawn-grits* with?............................my God, man........the hopper looks the same as my push unit (80lbs)

Just the bullshirt that must go into hauling that damn thing around, makes it seem like a hassle,...well,... as I see it anyway.

Stay cool, my friend......................you know me, if it's running through my mind..........IT IS probably running through cyber-space too.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

It is the Lesco Truckster 80# spreader. You and I both know it will hold 120# plus.

I don't walk lawns anymore. Gets old when you have a lot of large properties to do.

Why walk and pull a hose when you can ride!!!!!!?

BTW money maker, I am not too far off the number you posted for the 1st season of redeversifing my LCO more to the apps than mowing.

It is easy to haul.

[Garry]

I sometimes find myself wondering just where this business is going...................it has gotten so fast....so super-duper.......so guaranteed.......it seems, to me at least, to be fooling the homeowner into the false perception that what we do is somehow easy.

That it only takes *a coupla minutes*

That any damn kid, on vacation from school, could do it.

I"M SEEING a new breed of *landscaper*.........One that absorbs himself in the speed of operation, and not, the the finer things that make one a *true* man of the green industry.

If I could ever get you to go along with just one thing................and this is all my experience talkin too....I'd like you to understand that in this business, if you live by the dollar..............you will, die by the dollar.

It really is as simple as that..................really.

See those tanks on those small little trucks we're runnin?

Our companies bring in a huge amount of money with those things...............well, I'll take the mans word for it, he does (and, I'm sure he does)

Although, I do very little turf work with it....every one of my trees and shrubs know it personally.

So do the bugs-N-fungus...............(fungi)

Handcans rule!..............and, I's got lotta dem dere cans(es?)

Garry's babbling again...........................sorry.

When will they finally release that grass type that grows ONLY 3 inches....needs very little food, water, and a tremendous amount of our services.

I've long realized the potential to produce a *super-grass*................so powerful, a multi-billion dollar industry comes crashing down.

That old guy, that fixes mowers, at that little shop down the street...........................he's in the green industry.

Somewhere, someone making the screws, that hold your mower wheels on........................well, they're kinda in the green industry too.

The truck driver making a load from the mower factory....

Hmmmmm, perhaps, this IS why?

Being bigger and faster, may very well work in the jungle, but, there must come a time, when it's time to finally say......................enough is enough. Landscaping and plant care is NOT judged by how fast you did it, but rather, by, how well you do it.

[FrankenScagMachines]

Garry,
I'm not looking to argue or debate anything, my point is that I think that wanting to cut 3x weekly and use *scientific treatments* on the lawn isn't always the best value for the customer. My lawn looks better than most around here and all I did was cut at the right height and stripe it. Stripes aren't neccesary but they sure do hide tire tracks and other small things. Just mowing at the right height helps. I know you're not going to agree with me, nor is alot of people on here about all the stuff you're doing not being the best value, but in alot of areas and economic situations, what I'm doing is as much as most people will pay for. That's 1 (one) cut per week. No more. Not many chemicals if any. Maybe your market and economics allow for this but you should realize that many don't. I do my best for their money, and I can't take ten more minutes per lawn just turning and driving differently to prevent *turf damage*. I can't afford it unless it costs more or if it was the best client and I needed to keep it. More people than not will not recognise turf damage and don't know the difference. As I said, my lawn looks super to most people here. Alot of people think that when their lawn looks this good they are getting a value if they don't need to pay too much for it and when they see it looking like this they sure don't think they need fertilizer.
Also, even if you feel that we are all brothers, please refrain from using that term on here because it really bugs me OK?

It seems like you type more than you think. That or your brain has a high thinking capacity :D in which case I commend you LOL you seem to have a high output.

As I said before I'm not disagreeing with you on everything, i'm sure your right. But 99.99% of the people around here will not pay for that stuff.
Good day,
Eric
PS Stone you can stay out of this please!

[yardmonkey]

Very interesting thread here.

After a couple of years paying some dues, taking any work, mowing, trimming shrubs and hedges, weeding garden beds, planting flowers, trimming trees, cleaning up neglected properties, and reading, reading, reading, I'm starting to learn that its all about the soil (and everything that lives in it).

Time for me to learn more about fertilizing. Getting very interested in the totally organic approach. Compost, corn meal, molasses, worms, Milorganite..... don't kill the soil with chemicals.

So Garry, I wonder if you can say a bit about how the organic approach fits into all of this?

What's in the big tank on the little truck?

Was glad to see you mention Milorganite. (Check out http://www.milorganite.org ) Just bought a bag ($10/40lbs) and will try it out soon - got some yards I can experiment on now.

I like this cat Howard Garrett (the Dirt Doctor): http://www.dirtdoctor.com

And....as for long-winded posts.....and the dots and all.......can't we let people write however they want?.....and if they have a lot to say.....don't we want to hear it?......Isn't more knowledge better?....or should we limit posts to......20 words...or 50......500? Posts too long? Don't read them. No one can keep up with this site...........but I like this thread here.......

Wow.....its been a busy spring so far.................

[KirbysLawn]

While Garry's first post was one of the best I have read, after reading for a while I could not take anymore and started skimming. I think the original topic was about cutting more than 1/3 off at a time.

While I agree with most of what Garry says, all must understand that while the fertilizing program Garry uses in his area works on his turf, it would not work here or other areas. If you applied that much N in November here you run a real risk of having a lot of growth and problems and you will be mowing more than 1/3 off and mowing (damaging) the lawn more often, both defeating the ideas Garry recommends. I do a 5 step fertilizer program and I do fertilize in February with a 19-3-6 and again in April with a 13-3-5. My growth is very well regulated and my lawns look great.

If you are having to “throw the 1/3 rule out the window” you should consider other options and budget according. The time, wear & tear, fuel, & payroll spent double cutting could easily be spent on a PGR. This week I mowed about .75” off my fescue lawns leaving them at 3.75” in the spring on irrigated lawns.

One of the most often overlooked areas of lawn care (in my opinion) around here is soil management. Monitoring CEC’s and other soil conditions have changed the appearance and management practices of my lawns…for the better. I have 2 tri-axle truck loads of top soil to spread over a fescue lawn tomorrow that I just killed…on purpose. Will be aerating, top dressing with top soil and renovating the lawn into a Bermuda lawn…more on that in a future thread, the point is educating customers and selling them on what you feel the lawn needs. If you are in the grass cutting business then I guess it does not matter, but if you are planning on managing fine lawns then the customers needs to understand you make the decisions. I've put down more turkey c r a p this year than ever. :D

My customers allow me the freedom to mow when I wish at the height I wish, no questions asked. They understand if I skip or change to a 10-12 day schedule (in summer) I’m doing it for the health of the lawn, if we have extended rains and the lawn gets high they know it will be mowed at a higher setting and will be under control next week.

I tried to keep it short (my post). Here is tall fescue mowed at 3.75" soil CEC's 10.0 and not irrigated, golf ball sits on top....

[lawrence stone]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KirbysLawn
[B]

I do a 5 step fertilizer program and I do fertilize in February with a 19-3-6 and again in April with a 13-3-5. My growth is very well regulated and my lawns look great.

If you are having to “throw the 1/3 rule out the window” you should consider other options and budget according. The time, wear & tear, fuel, & payroll spent double cutting could easily be spent on a PGR. This week I mowed about .75” off my fescue lawns leaving them at 3.75” in the spring on irrigated lawns.

Kirby you would not need to use primo if you cut way back on the N.

The 19-3-6 with pre M with 70% urea at 1 lb per 1k sq ft is TOO much product for the first app.

Ray did you ever hear of the term IPM?

Do you know what that means?

It means I PURCHASE MATERIALS.

The less materials I purchase the more money I make with my pricing scheme.

Here is a little hint:

Apply a pound of N with 32-5-7 with 50% coated in November.

Then apply a pre-m with only K (0-0-7) as a carrier in Feb.

Then In April/May apply 25-5-10 at a 1/2 lb per 1k rate with 40% coated and 1.5%FE.

Put the sprayer away until the third app then use insecticde, lesco 20-20-20 (or something with major K) at half rate with some iron.

Your welcome.

[lawrence stone]

Originally posted by yardmonkey


Was glad to see you mention Milorganite. (Check out http://www.milorganite.org ) Just bought a bag ($10/40lbs) and will try it out soon - got some yards I can experiment on now.



This product is not cost effective. Take a bag of 25-5-10 ($10) and apply it at 1/4 lb of N per 1k sq ft and you will get the same results at one quarter of the price of dried human waste.

Plus you will get 4X more K vs. poo poo.

[lawnstudent]

lawrence stone,

does that mean you don't like organic fert? You should be a little more direct in your repose.

jim

[theplantdoctor]

Just read the whole thread, whew! Arguably the BEST THREAD/ DISCUSSION that I have read on this site in a long time. Really gets the grey matter working. Should get a lot more people thinking about how they can do more for existing clients rather than getting a little from many clients.

Garry's style (writing) is little "unique", but it is what this site has needed for some time. Some say that he is too long winded, but my take on this is maybe he is telling us we should slow down a little and do some more thinking. Like the turtle, speed does not always win the race. Applause, applause! Keep it up!

Many have said that it is not possible to get the clients to change the approach. I have some of those too, BUT, after you have worked for them for some time and garnered their trust, you might be quite surprised at how you can "sell them up" when they see the results from better cultural practices. When you develop the trust, you can start to call the shots and the wallet really does open.

We need a LOT MORE of this type of discussion. This is the knowledge we should be researching and sharing not comparos about trimmer line and stuff.

Question: Has anyone given any thought about feeding the bacteria in the soil so that you can improve the structure?;)

Ken

[Garry]

Cation exchange capacity...is defined as the *exchangeable cations per unit of dry weight of soil*...............Personally, I measure mine in (milliequivalents) mEq- per 100 grams of soil.

That's pretty intense.......................you're getting readings of 100........are you getting double the K+ to NH4?

The CEC of a soil seems to depend so much on the type of clay, soil texture, amount of organic matter...............uh, maybe even the pH................unless I'm doing a major soil restructuring............I won't get too wrapped up in it.

Plus, I've always found that alot of organic matter varies widely in CEC readings............Hmmmm, I still ponder that one.

It's kind of strange, when you finally relize the fact, that plants eat ONE ATOM AT A TIME.... It's ALL about electricity!

That's what a cation (cat-ion) is..................it's a positively charged atom (ion).

Then there's the *new*.......AEC..............Anion exchange capacity...(ann-ion).............anion is a negatively charged atom.......................the only problem with AEC...(come on, professor, I'm just busting chops).................is there's no such thing.

I'm just getting you thinking.................................and, trying to drive a point across................that there's an incredible amount of science going on here in the green industry, whether you want to admit you know it or not.

Plant nutrition is mostly JR. HIGH SCHOOL CHEMISTRY.

However, one can attain a Phd in it, and still be trying to figure this shirt out........................on the very day you die.

THEN, you'll understand it........................because, you're part of it now!

Yo there Brush-Hog, go light, my little brother.........................Your assumptions of what the customer wants/ doesn't want.........sees/doesn't see...................considers/doesn't consider.................sounds like it's pouring striaght from the yap of youthful inexperience.

Son, I got a daughter that would consider you too young to go out with. Don't worry, we will NEVER argue...................as I long ago stopped arguing with drunks and children.

You've shown me complete disrespect.............................I'm only trying to help you. For every year you've been alive......................I've put in OVER 2, working on landscapes.

Little bro, you owe me an apology.

I write mainly for MYSELF......................I'm learning right along with you. If you get something out of it, fine.........................If you don't........well, bye, see ya!

Ah,........... that's kinda bullshirt, I made a promise to pass on the knowledge I've gathered from one of THE greatest turf minds that ever walked the earth.............RIP Professor Skogley, I'm sure the great lawn in heaven is looking good!............and I'm sure you're busy consulting God himself on the finer points of a garden of grass plants.

[Russo]

I think that was uncalled for, Garry.

Can we get back to the CEC's ? I'd like to hear more about how this relates to " the dollar" theory and how the exchange capacity can be affected. How do we use this knowledge to better ourselves and the plants ? We start hearing about so many beneficial topics, and then we get sidetracked. Please continue on this topic.

What are the general concepts involved in cation exchange capacity?

Could you also touch on micorhizae for those not familiar. ( if that is spelled correctly )

I find both topics very interesting, but would surely put my foot in my mouth trying to explain what little I know.

You may even want to start a new thread on one of these topics.........................nahhhhhhhhh.

Landscraper.

[Garry]

Last year really was my first year as *landscape science & treatments*..................This my brothers, is my grand scheme to finally become the complete antithesis of large, quick, impersonal, unknowledgeable, inexperienced landscape operations.

I saw a market, saw a need, saw some problems (bad grubs), saw some weeds (renovation/exclamation)..............moved here (my God, it's nice)......................I'm not gonna brag (ok, just alittle)...but, I'm kinda known alot of places in the smallest state in the union..(I personally live in THE smallest town)

So, it went like this...

A man and woman are having breakfast, the still unshaven man, looks up from his morning paper, clears his throat, and camly says to his wife..............Yo, honey...

Word out........................"that Lamar guy is runnin around here"

Yes dear, I saw his ad in the paper this morning................perhaps, we should give him a call.................Maybe he'll know why those skunks are tearing up the lawn.

The man, his blank, morning expression afixed, slowly shakes his head, and goes back to his morning paper.

He mumbled something.........................I'm still not sure what.

@ hours later.............................I get the call!

The New England Patriots are Super Bowl Champions!!!!!!

And every sales simply means the shrine to the greatest sports season OF ALL TIME............................gets bigger and bigger.

But, the point being is this.......I came across as different, I have ideas, I was a one man show WITH thousands of knowledgeable resources at my asking/taking...(library, internet, lab, microscope, associates, etc)

Man, you just won't belive what these homeowners are willing to spend IF it's explained properly........................You're NOT screwing anyone even if you ask to aerate a compacted lawn twice in one year and apply some wetting agent.....................oh yeah, during the fall aeration, amended with volcanic slag to increase aeration in the heavy clay areas, plus, we spent some time in the lab, doing those ubiquitous soil tests..................what, you think I'm paying for that.

It will always beat kicking the homeowner square in the congos with a urea app in the dog days of August.

[MATTHEW]

Originally posted by lawrence stone
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KirbysLawn
[B]

I do a 5 step fertilizer program and I do fertilize in February with a 19-3-6 and again in April with a 13-3-5. My growth is very well regulated and my lawns look great.

If you are having to “throw the 1/3 rule out the window” you should consider other options and budget according. The time, wear & tear, fuel, & payroll spent double cutting could easily be spent on a PGR. This week I mowed about .75” off my fescue lawns leaving them at 3.75” in the spring on irrigated lawns.

Kirby you would not need to use primo if you cut way back on the N.

The 19-3-6 with pre M with 70% urea at 1 lb per 1k sq ft is TOO much product for the first app.

Stone: whatever happened to "I have shunned all pre-emergence"? How can we sit here and give out our "programs" in one post without mentioning soil types, grass types, continental zones, and sun/shade environments? I'll tell you about one lawn. I rented an apartment and it had a sad looking lawn. The landlord asked me to mow it and try to make it look like a lawn. I was young and ambitious, so I put 20-20-10 on at 8lbs/1000, and sprayed the weeds with Trimec. I am not lying. I have been mowing the lawn for 10 years and have not put one bit of fert on it since then, just weed control. I just mowed it last week. It looks like astro turf even to this day! Not dark green, but better that the others in the area. So thick, (Blue/Rye mix) it's unbelievable. Maybe it's got good dirt, I don't know.

Ray did you ever hear of the term IPM?

Do you know what that means?

It means I PURCHASE MATERIALS.

The less materials I purchase the more money I make with my pricing scheme.

Here is a little hint:

Apply a pound of N with 32-5-7 with 50% coated in November.

Then apply a pre-m with only K (0-0-7) as a carrier in Feb.

Then In April/May apply 25-5-10 at a 1/2 lb per 1k rate with 40% coated and 1.5%FE.

Put the sprayer away until the third app then use insecticde, lesco 20-20-20 (or something with major K) at half rate with some iron.

Your welcome.

[KirbysLawn]

Stone, thanks but no-thanks. You don't seem to understand and talking to you is like talking to a wall except the wall is more receptive to new ideas and suggestions. I have posted three times now that I applied the Primo Maxx for root and blade density not necessarily growth regulation (that’s just a good plus). My way works fine and there is no way in he** I would apply 25-….anything to tall fescue in May in this region, brown patch and growth would be a real PITA. You deal with your turf in your area and I’ll worry about mine.

[MATTHEW]

Stone, whatever happened to " I have shunned all pre-emergence"? There's a lot of talk here about the best "program" to go by, but little mention about soil types, grass types, continental zones, sun/shade environments. There isn't any one- program- fits -all out there. ( my problem with the do-it-yourself stuff). Here is a true story for you. In 1992, I lived in an apartment with a sad, sad lawn. The landlord asked me to mow and DO SOMETHING with it. I was young and abitious, so I applied 20-20-10 at 10lbs/1000!!! Then I sprayed Trimec at the max rate. I still mow that lawn after all these years. I spray weed control and chelated iron 2x per year, but have applied NO FERT in 10 years. Right now, it is green and super thick with no weeds.
Maybe it just had good dirt.

[Russo]

Hey, Gar!

Where did all that come from? Scroll up alittle, dude, and help me out.

[lawrence stone]

By the last few responses to the posts I have made in this thread I have finally come to the realization in the last 2 1/2 years that you part time lawn boys and cutters are just plain stupid.

There is no sense wasting my time at LS anymore.

If you can't do simple math there is no way I can help anyone.

So this will be my last post to lawnsite.

Goodbye and good luck.

[parkwest]

Oh! Oh! Alien abduction hypothesis still holding water.

What happens when you mix clean water with dirty water?

Maybe this is what happened to our beloved professor.

He was always giving and we were always taking until he couldn't take any more.

[Garry]

Mr Stone,

You hang on to this thread....................sure, you'll get some responses that are sure to piss you off, but, ............I personally will run with you, my friend.

Landscraper, you want to talk about CEC?.......................okay. you asked....................and you'll soon be getting it.

[KirbysLawn]

No need to pout...it'll be ok. You must understand that your program would not work here and that's the way it is. With the way fertilizer washes out of the clay we have, if you waited 6 months to apply N all your lawns would be yellow.

We have mostly all red clay here and growing cool season grasses in clay, with 90-100 degree temps, 75 degree nights, and 8 weeks + with no rain is challanging and a pain. I can't understand why you think you have all answers and everyone is stupid....in all parts of the country. Aren't you the same guy who just learned how to ID crabgrass & Poa within the last year?

[Garry]

Wow Kirby................if you're talking to me, you can shove that NC clay right up your chute.

Punk-ass rebel!

[KirbysLawn]

Garry, no that was not toward you but thanks for the kind words. :rolleyes: Why don't you confirm someone is talking to you before make such comments?

[Garry]

You're right, my brother........................I'm pissed at my old lady, and am snapping at you.

My daddy, God rest his soul......................was a tough-ass rebel.

This yank has nothing against the south...........................even got family in Springfield MO.

We, in the green industry are a tough bunch.....................alittle *****-slappin here and there ain't gonna hurt nobody.

Sorry, my brother.

[Garry]

Mrs Jane Goodwyn wins annual pie contest...again...........so read the headlines of the Oakdale Times, a bi-weekly paper, that's been around as long as anyone can remember.

This was her sixth straight win (mandatory retirement/contest rules)..................using a recipe handed down to her when she was but a little girl, by her Grandmother, also a town fair pie champion.

People always were asking her her secret..................but, Mrs Goodwyn, widowed and childless, vowed to take her secret to the grave..........................alas, then no one will ever know.

She strode to the middle of her kitchen, raised a bony fist to the heavens, and shouted............"I'll never tell, damnit..................and when I'm gone,... so is this pie recipe!"

But, just then, her soft, womanly side appeared..................."How I used to love to see the looks on peoples faces, as they chomped down on a slice of my pie"...................Hmmmm, Perhaps, I'll just make them the pies......................I'll go to their house, ask for nothing in return, but, to simply see the faces of those enjoying my pie...............I'm a old, lonely woman and this way I can have some company and delight in seeing the faces of those eating my pie".

She placed her ad in the paper.

And somewhere, a phone rang.......................Mrs Goodwyn smiled.

Busy as a damn building beaver, Mrs Goodwyn was doing well.....................but, in time, she found herself slightly disappointed too.

She began to notice the *looks of wonder* were not as great as those she saw back in her days at the fair.......................No one said anything, mind you............but, the old woman had been around plenty long enough, to know disappointment when she saw it.......and she was seeing plenty.

Hmmmm, I wonder why this is,......... Mrs Goodwyn thought for a moment,...I use the same ingredients, I bake it the same amount of time, everything's almost like in my kitchen..............I can't figure this one out.

The next meeting of the cooking club had Mrs Goodwyn rasing her hand, asking a question,........................... at the question and answer period of the meeting (something she'd not done in years)

Hmmmmm, the group sighed in unison...(small discussions broke out and a low hum filled the room)

Have you checked oven temperature?......................asked a young woman, a biology major in college, now raising 3 small boys.

Oven temperature?.............asked the old woman.

Yes, did you take an oven thermometer and check to make sure it was the same temperature as the one you have at home?........If it's not the same temperature, it won't cook the same.................therefore, it won't taste the same either.

How about the refrigerator?...........................did that keep the eggs, butter, and cream nice and chilled, just like yours?

How abot the berries?............................did they come from your prized patch, down by the lake?

Did their mixer.........................mix like yours does?

For the rest of the meeting, the questions pounded the old woman.......................It was unrelentless.

NO........NO........NO........the old woman cried out.

Even though I use the same stuff..........................even with all my care...................all my experience.......................I can't do it like I do at home.

Although all appears the same..........................I now know, how different things really are.

THE END



Just a little story, to help get the point across.....................that, I fully relize.............what I do with my cool season plants in Rhode Island.............................wouldn't work for shirt, in the south, midwest, southwest, mid west south central east, but not too far east, and west.

Check YOUR oven temperature...............frigerator too,...........pick your berries from the prized patch (by the lake)..................And you too...

Can eat your own great pie...........................while standing on a nice lawn, down by the lake.

[FrankenScagMachines]

Garry,
I mean no disrespect to anyone. If you interpret it that way, fine. That is your problem. When I got a Lawnsite account, I planned on being an equal and being treated like one. I do not want anyone going around calling me punk, kid, brother, or telling me I'm "out of line" and that I "owe you an apology" or any **** like that. I don't really care if your daughter wouldn't go out with me - that has no bearing on the issue at hand. I know people around here would not pay for this **** because not even half the people around here fertilize at all much less the right mixes. Most lawns here are not pure grass, they have a high weed content. If you have customers to pay for your science treatments, good for you. Here it's not that way. I do not plan on attempting science treatments either. It sounds like a good idea but not for this market. You need to understand that other people's market bears other things.
Eric

[hustlers]

GARRY,

Ill bring my walker, shindaiwa, and my Toyota
Along with my turfgrass degree and put me to work.
I specialize in picky people with manicured lawns that
want whats best for the landscape.
Pay me good, and Ill do you good.
Jason

[KirbysLawn]

Let's stay on the topic.... having fast growing grass and what to do.

Sorry Garry I can't read all that and I'm not sure how you have time to type it all. You have posted in this one thread 52 times, almost 1/3 of the total. I know you have good information to share and you are truely thanked for taking the time to share but please....make your point. I can't help but to thank most people are not even reading most of your post. I would love to learn from what you have to teach but I can't weed through it all...

[Garry]

Weeds are not A problem, they're simply the symptoms of THE problem..............being poor turf density.

The most effective form of weed/crabgrass control is a nice thick turf.

Pound these people for overseeding jobs this fall......................if they don't want it because it's too expensive...................continue on with the weed-killer routine.

I do take it.....................you're old enough to get a pesticide license, aren't you?

How do you get from job to job?

You know what,..............................Never mind. Answering those questions would imply I even care, and I'm kinda busy these days anyway.

You should do a WHOLE LOT more reading and listening and less time popping off to people multiples of your age.......son.

[1MajorTom]

Garry,
I know you like this thread ;), but maybe you could start a new fresh one.
Heck, it's 9 pages long. New members that are finding this thread are going to have a hard time weeding thru all the pages and probably will miss some of your points.

You have knowledge here. Now wouldn't a fresh new thread be appealing to ya???

[Garry]

NEVER.................NOT ONCE..........................EVER (and I do mean ever)

Did the great Professor Skogley TELL me how to do ANYTHING.

What he did, however, is INFORM me on how to go about doing something.

That's all I'm trying to do with you.

I've said what 52 times?

Instead of contemplating what I'm saying.............The ART of growing plants.

You want my recipe for pie.

Well, just like old Mrs Goodwyn......................It's going with me, my brother.

If you'de like, I'll fly out to your place and do it for you...........would that help?

Oh, I see..................I spend all the time in school/research.

And you, hang out, surfing the net, waiting for whatever I say?

I just don't see how that will help you.

[KirbysLawn]

What he did, however, is INFORM me on how to go about doing something. That's what I'm trying to do with you..


Ok thanks Garry and that's all I was trying to do with you. I was trying to suggest that you make your point and more people will read what you say. I read your post with interest at first but now.....

I guess this topic is done...

[Garry]

Hmmmmm, what was the point?...........................It appears that my state of babble has rubbed the edges smooth regarding the topic at hand.

Every morning I look out my front widow and see this.............................ONE CUT/year to date, MAY 8th.

Green grass that produces wood!

[Russo]

I give up. See ya, Gar.

[lawnworker]

This thread is to long. Not every market are customer can afford a soil scientist. Some people just need reasonable lawn maintenance once a week. Not every lawn care owner wants to become a soil scientist . I am not implying there is anything wrong with being a soil / agronomy expert. It has been said on this forum before that some of the high end really rich residentials can be some of the worst customers to deal with. Would not they be the targets for upscale fertilizing and other treatments ? I guess my point is lawn care is very diverse from the guy to a mower strapped on the roof of his car to the LCO with a worker looking at soil thrugh a microscope making recommendations for upsells. At this point I am happy to be in between these two extremes.

[Garry]

You take care now, my brother.

[corycc]

I have only been in this business for a short while and it is not my primary job (full time student). I cut grass for about 30 to 40 yards /week. I like to return once every week to keep customers happy and costs down, but if my equipment can't handle it (eXmark TTHP 52) or it takes me twice as long as it should because of cleanup, I tell them I will return sooner, if they agree I do so, but if not I drop them, tell them to call the next guy, or do it themselves. It is really funny when they have to do that because, with their equipment they have to mow it every three or four days, or they will be working all weekend!! This way I keep my reputation and sanity. This means most customers dish out $100-$120 per month. I will not cut yards low for people either. My motto "If you can spend $$$ on fert apps and greenups, you can spend $$$ on maintaining your "prize" lawn". As for my own yard, I fertilize but just enough to keep it green and weed free, I don't need it to grow 5" a week!

[FrankenScagMachines]

This thread is to long. Not every market are customer can afford a soil scientist. Some people just need reasonable lawn maintenance once a week. Not every lawn care owner wants to become a soil scientist . I am not implying there is anything wrong with being a soil / agronomy expert. It has been said on this forum before that some of the high end really rich residentials can be some of the worst customers to deal with. Would not they be the targets for upscale fertilizing and other treatments ? I guess my point is lawn care is very diverse from the guy to a mower strapped on the roof of his car to the LCO with a worker looking at soil thrugh a microscope making recommendations for upsells. At this point I am happy to be in between these two extremes.

That's what I've been trying to say all along :rolleyes:
So I am going to quit reading and replying to this thread. Once again, I am glad you have customers that are so unreasonable to pay for this stuff and I wish you well, but you drive me and I think others crazy. Maybe you should just write a book about this stuff. No one can read it this way and no one has time to read through stories about Mrs. Jone's pie contest or whatever just to get a simple point that can be made in a couple sentences.
Later! :rolleyes:
ps i'm not your "son" either!:angry:
Now have a nice day if that's possible for someone like you :rolleyes:

[Garry]

You take care too, lil bro.

[f350]

i have found this thread to be really good. i think he has make some really great points. as far as his writing style, well i think it's stellar. plant science is not exactly an exciting topic unless you make it one. i really hope all of you guy's preaching quality read this thread page for page. this idea is 50% science and 50% sales. saying that this cannot be sold to a homeowner is crazy. think about every tech that has stepped foot on a clients property and started babbaling nonsence about grubs, leaf spot etc, only to have it be urin damage. if you had the knowledge and the sales techniques this would be an easy thing. so where is your quality work, oh yeah it's sitting on your trailer. so you want respect from the general public, earn it. spend a little less time changing oil and a little more time studying maybe take a marketing class. as far as a KID lipping off well thats your future of industry. i think is most enetertaining how garry uses the term lawn crack, this is something we use frequently. because thats all it is. give'em what they want. remember if you dont ask for the business you'll never get it..

[hustlers]

GARRY,

I hope you take as good of care of your
body and health as you do your lawns.
Cause you seem to be using of alot
of highly toxic chemicals which could
have acute or chronic toxicty and other
cancer causing compounds.

Id just stick to the milorganite and
let her go.
You better be careful not to put to
much down or your customers might
be suing you for future health problems.

Keep up the hard work.
WATCH OUT

[Garry]

Well,..........that and the two packs of cigarettes I smoke daily.

[Garry]

Can't you see where I'm going here, all the stories, each having its own moral.

I'm talking to you in *broad terms*..................it's not WHAT I say, but, WHAT I'm talking about that counts here.

The old man..........................he should have read the book and prospered.

Mrs Goodwyn........................well, that poor, sweet, old lady...........she learned a couple of lessons.

The first being..............Sometimes it's not what you do.......BUT, what you don't do. (her lazy-ass son really was helping her)

And second....................What works well at one location......................DOESN"T always work everywhere. (she found out there was alot of science behind her killer pies)

So, how do we find out the recipe for *killer pies*????????

Hmmmmm,.....that's a good question.

Could it be at all possible to develop a *one size fits all* landscape program?.................................It would if all the landscapes were completely the same.........(even factoring in insect populations as vectors)

When you relize that you've controled a Turpentine beetle infestation in the black pines..............but, still lose the trees to the Blue stain fungus,...... the beetles carried in on their feet.

No it's not possible, as even the lawns one your route for one day (20?)...(10)....(5)...................will differ in needs.

Even parts of the same landscape will differ in need.

A good cook can cook alot of different dishes....and pies.

The operative word being different.

[theplantdoctor]

Originally posted by f350
i have found this thread to be really good. i think he has make some really great points. as far as his writing style, well i think it's stellar. plant science is not exactly an exciting topic unless you make it one. i really hope all of you guy's preaching quality read this thread page for page. this idea is 50% science and 50% sales. saying that this cannot be sold to a homeowner is crazy. think about every tech that has stepped foot on a clients property and started babbaling nonsence about grubs, leaf spot etc, only to have it be urin damage. if you had the knowledge and the sales techniques this would be an easy thing. so where is your quality work, oh yeah it's sitting on your trailer. so you want respect from the general public, earn it. spend a little less time changing oil and a little more time studying maybe take a marketing class. as far as a KID lipping off well thats your future of industry. i think is most enetertaining how garry uses the term lawn crack, this is something we use frequently. because thats all it is. give'em what they want. remember if you dont ask for the business you'll never get it..

Hey F350: Did you read my mind or something??:p

Maybe it is because I drive an F350 as well.:D

Ken

[SLS]

I'm still digging on this thread too.

Any thread is kinda like Fox News' slogan:

"We report...You Decide".

I find the info and analogies interesting....knowledge, whether applied or not, is still a good thing.

I see nothing unreasonable about people who are willing to shell out the 'big bucks' for what I term "extreme lawn mantainance". Some people want "the perfect lawn"...and others want it scalped once a month... Such is life.

Of course some would rather keep thinking that repetitiously dragging a pushbroom back and forth behind a riding tractor is as good as it gets. Oh well...it takes all kinds... :D

[Garry]

Perhaps, this thread should be renamed..................." The ramblings of a landscape madman".

Then again..........................perhaps, not.

[AielLandscaping]

i just caught up finally... i've been trying to catch up on this thread now for 3 days and i finally did it...

garry, i've got to say when i first started reading all this i couldn't get past the writing style, but after a few more postings i caught on and have really enjoyed what you've had to say. i've read turfgrass: science and culture before and couldn't make heads or tails out of it because it was presented in a way that was plain and uninteresting... keep up the good work...

[Garry]

It's not whether it's deemed good or bad by the critics...................it's when it simply can't be ignored, that its true power is unleashed.

You must pick apart alot of my writings....................and unlock the vast wealth of information I've encoded within.

Do I sound cocky?........................perhaps.

Knowledge is true power...........................I've always had pride in myself on my power.

Does that make my information any less meaningful.............maybe?

Professor Skogley,..................Even to this day, I still feel your hand on my shoulder, and as strange as this sounds, I know you're guiding my hands across this keyboard.

I feel your presence....................I am honored.

[Garry]

When contemplating the *1/3 rule*..............The words of Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1624 essayist/philosophser) come to mind...........when he said..."There's nothing more pleasing to the eye, than green grass finely shorn"

I'll bet he'd have never uttered those words, as Kickin Grass Inc (The local mow & Go operation in town) is pulling away from the curb, with screeching tires, and gangsta rap blaring from the radio.

Did you ever once relize the physics involved in mowing?...................it would blow your freaking mind!

As a blade spins............it cuts grass plants...(no shirt, Garry)

There's NO magic involved here...........Just because you don't see it...............DOESN"T mean, it's not happening...... Meaning, this takes time! (you gotta at least, give the blade a chance)

Let me give you an example.

Reel mowers that move to quickly, give you a "wavy appearence" in your cut (it's gotta name too, Marcelling).............simply reduce the forward speed of the mower, giving the reels a chance to cut always solved the problem. (CR=MH.........whereas CR is clip rate...and MH is mow height)................oh yeah, anyone who knows alot about *the beating* (harvest)................knows QUALITY cuts come from a reel mower.....................and not a real mower.

I RELIZE that the vast majority of you don't use reel mowers (you use real mowers)....................But, I'm just stressing a point.

And that point is.............You can always fool the homeowner, but, there's still no way to fool physics.

[Garry]

Damn, hope I don't break my own arm, patting myself on the back....................I mean, come on Garry..........if you hand me a wrench....................I am a spaz.

Mechanical things simply baffle me.

[Vibe Ray]

Interesting fella, that Garry.....hmmmmm

[Garry]

Cutting by impact, the roatary mower uses a horizontally mounted blade that rotates on a vertical shaft.

The cut will never be as sharp as a reel mower, but as long as the blade is sharp AND balanced....................you'll be doing just fine.

Provided you keep your forward speed under 100 mph.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot..................you can't fool basic mathematics either.

All should look in to double blades... so that, CR (greater than) MH.................This would be, oh so good.

[lawnstudent]

From reading between the lines of this thread I have come to the following conclusions:

1) Use a lot of organic fert (BS)
2) Study/analyse your lawns. You will see a lot of extraneous information but the answers are there if you just look at the right information
3) and try to control your use of fert in spring or you get rabid threads, I mean growth when the rains comes.

jim

[Garry]

Organic fertilizer.............................That's semi-impratical when used in this "business"...................I'm taking it the BS you placed on the end of organic fertilizer meant *bullshirt*.

Yeah, I remove the tank from the back of my Ford Ranger.....................cruise to the local farm................go to the farmer and say..."give me some shirt"...........take it back to the site and spread it.

That, my brother, just isn't me.

Better living through chemistry I say..........................Hell, I smoke two packs of *cowboy-killers* a day, do you think I give two-shirts about me when I got some pesky adelgids sucking the very life from my eastern hemlocks? ( I'm the crazy-ass guy that leaped 20 ft off a dock, and put a MEAN ,*Ray Lewis*, slam on this Canada goose that had been crapping all over the greens at this golf course I worked at years ago... (Hey, I was young, dumb and full of it)

I was a champion.........everyone knew me.............the women cooked the goose................the men, heartily ate and drank the night away...............it was kinda cool,....... at the time.

Anyone from my age group (42/June).........remembers Stan from Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom.........(one brave/crazy dude)

I was trying to be him..........................even said his name while flying through the air........................trying to impress this cute little waitress..............oh, to be young again.

Babbling again.

Organic concentration regarding plant nutrition.................is a very trying task, so much so, I'll have no part of it.

South County, Rhode Island, is home to not only one of the greatest turf schools in the world, but, also to miles and miles of some of the finest turf you done ever seen.

What always amazes me is no matter how hot, dry, rainy, fungal outbreak, insect plague, etc, it is................those turf fields ALWAYS look great! (real wood producer)

I wonder why that is?

Couldn't have nothin to do with water, could it?

Or cultural practices?

Won't be smellin no poop either.................as all N sources come 40 bags to a pallet.

I mean, Christ............there ain't no shade for miles, it's just sitting out there cooking.

But, it's green, looks good, and it's making someone alot of money.

Has anyone ever wondered why 90% of sod installs fail?

Although I could write a long one here...........I won't.

Don't have to.......................because, it's as simple as this.

When you move from that posh Park Avenue home to the shack in the ghetto..........................you will fair not well, my friend

[MATTHEW]

Wow, Garry... '42??? We didn't realize...
So that's what we have to look forward to in OUR old age. Pesticide insanity. I know that smokin' Camels are bad and organophosphates are worse, but I think I might want to re-think my career if this is what its all going to come to.

[lawnworker]

The sod does not like the ghetto. Thats why it fails.:alien:

[cos]

Hey Garry,

Do you explain all this to your customers before submitting a bid?

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Ok smarty pants, what do you do with this lawn?

Mowed 6 days ago, look how tall TGCL has it.

Guess how high I am mowing it?

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Hummmmm I took my tape measurer out and got an average of 11".

So does the 1/3 rule still apply?

Here is a closer shot.

[cos]

That'll bog the ole reel mower down!!!

[KirbysLawn]

Wonder what the side effects are to prolonged exposure to chemicals??:rolleyes:

[Garry]

There's a two-fold solution here.....................1) you maybe should have cut the s.o.b. 4 days ago (and been one day from the next cut AND next bill).........2) Hide in that tall grass, with a rifle (yes, shoot all in green wearing rubber boots)

I see it like this.

The *big joke* did the application............ran with the money.

You, on the other hand, are working your ass off, beating your equiptment, and wasting alot of time.

Who won this battle....You?

I think not!

Between the *big joke* blowing the root/shoot ratio of the plant right out of the water, AND, you...............stopping root growth all together (albeit temporary)............that stand of turf is being beat down.

Like a couple of thugs, cruising the streets at night in search of another victim, you're crushing this turf stands skull.

My brother, you go light..........................DO NOT take this personally (we'll grapple someday at a turf show, right in the middle of the main floor area.........so, all can see!)

I've cut miles and miles of that stuff, as it looks just like golf course rough, growing like a *****, like it always does this time of year here in New England.

5 gang REEL MOWER...........................Drug....uh, drugged...uh, dragged...........ah, you know, pulled with a tractor.

ONE pass................MAYBE TWO (near the club house)

And until you can cut *a bullet* 470 YARDS long................let's not even get into striping.

[1grnlwn]

Due to the act of G** it is now the 3/1 rule. You may with doubles of course, cut 6" off of a 9" stand. The grass must be wet and at least two areas with standing water at least 3" in depth. I have yards that were just fertilized last fall only and they are almost as bad as the fertilized ones. Anyone make an outfront mower with tracks?

Mark

[Garry]

Green in color after *the beating*........Sat. May 11th.

No bag.

Now compare with shot taken over 1 week ago (many posts back)

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Originally posted by KirbysLawn
Wonder what the side effects are to prolonged exposure to chemicals??:rolleyes:

Ummm,............ Garry................................. can you answer this?

Garry solution to the problem is to throw out the 1/3 rule!!!!!

We cut it twice and that's it.

On this lawn I don't think it had any problem with root growth.

Grass roots only grow to aproximatly 6" deep max so I don't see a problem.

This lawn has no irragation and grows well when hot and dry.

Turf science is not exclusive to you.

You can't stop root growth if it has maxed out already.

NEXT!!!!!




BTW if I could sell them an app of Primo, that will solve the excessive growth problem, but I would NOT count on it.

[lawnstudent]

"You can't stop root growth if it has maxed out already."

Roots don't live for ever. Turf generates all new root system every 6 months to two years. Most roots in top 4-6 inches. But in soil cores I've removed I've seen roots go to 12 inches deep. Not many, but they are there seeking mosture and nutirents.



jim

[Garry]

Sorry, my friend.......................but, if that's to be your statement regarding turfgrass science.....................you have not the grasp, anywhere near, what I thought.

If I don't get root growth that EXCEEDS 8 inches.........I bum out.

Brother, go down to the local golf course and ask the greenkeeper (NOT greenSkeeper)..............if you can come along while he *cuts holes* for the day.

I've measured root growth in FEET, on a green that's been *aqua-jet* aerated to depths over 30 inches. (force so powerful, it cuts through pipe)

Have you ever heard of tall fescue?

Godfather, I'm not busting your balls (the big-joke is doing that for me)......................but, please..........look up root growth in your book.

Ahhhhhhhhh, don't tell me it sits upon your bookshelf.................covered in dust and cobweb?

[lawnstudent]

Ahhhhhhhh,

my turf science book states: "The roots of cool season grass species, WHEN MOWED, seldom grow deeper than 1 foot. In summer, when soil temperatures are high, their roots may be very shallow." Isn't that one of your points Garry? Throwing out the 1/3 rule affect a grass's growth pattern and mowing height has a direct relationship on root depth. Are you suggesting that this is wrong? 30 inch root depth in a coarse soil that is aerated with water jets is not unexpected. But you are talking about a pampered golf green. The residential lawns I work with their heavy clay soils could hardly support this kind of root depth. No oxygen down at 30 inches of clay. Besides my soil probe is only 12 inches long (I guess that makes me inadequate). There may very well be some root development below 12". I will stick to my statement that the bulk of grass rooting occurs in the top 4 - 6 inches because this is where the oxygen is. Improve the depth of oxygen infiltration and you can get deeper rooting.

Have I heard of Tall Fescue? Yea, its a weed in fine Kentucky Blue grass lawns in Northern Illinois. I make good money irradicating Tall Fescue!

jim

[Garry]

Your what? states what?.............................Uh oh, I'm whipping 95% of this stuff off me head.

Dusted off the book huh?.......................whossa good boy.

Don't be lookin for roots much past 10 inches in the hell we call residential lawncare.

Christ, the way some turf is kept..................a coupla inches is doing pretty good.

[Garry]

Never use a science book as words in stone...................you'll end up screwing yourself right into the ground.

What happens in those books are not really "what you're seeing"...inasmuchas,..what you should see.

Physiology............okay, tell me in three chapters how roots grow, I can take it.

Give me those 20 letter Greek names, wow, you're blowin my mind!

Where's that get me with the Simmons lawn, I can't seem to keep green, no matter how I task.....................she's pissed.

They're having that big wedding next month.......................she made me promise it'd look good

It does not.

If you brothers are ass deep in clay, there's not much hope for you.............get air 1 inch, 3 inches, 8, 14, 34,.......blow it to China, for all I care, but, don't just sit there, do something.

Oh, by the way..............your chances of aerating/adding soil admendments..........to change soil profile, has two chances of working.

Slim and none.

Find something that prospers in clay (I've not the foggiest idea what)

If you can't,...try this.

Throw three virgins into the nearest volcano, slaughter all your livestock and give it to the poor.

Or roto-till and start over (if that would be easier)



Oh, to the person who spoke of 3" of standing water, I say this...........that grass plant ain't growin too fast seein as it can't breath at all.................all metabolic activity sloooooowed.

It's gotta be, at least, slowing shoot growth.........wouldn't you say?

I feel for ya, brother........................used to do alot of *Congo-cuttin* myself.

Hey, you're not getting any turf damage from spinning those machines around in the muck, are you?

Like my buddy, Bill, says... (Bill's a goat)

NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Originally posted by Garry
Never use a science book as words in stone...................you'll end up screwing yourself right into the ground.

What happens in those books are not really "what you're seeing"...inasmuchas,..what you should see.



Umm so why did you just contradict what what you just typed?

Like I said 6", since you are not working near here, you have different soils and grass types.

We aren't taking care of Golf courses here.

Gee I would love to have all my customers pay for all the correct applications, but that is impossable due to our lovely freinds at True Green Chem Lawn.

[Garry]

The *big joke* is runnin and gunnin them all, you say.

They are your Darth Vader.

You MUST become Luke Skywalker.

Everytime you see those in the "rubber boots".................you must, with slashing light saber, defeat the force.

Dig a big pit in your finest accounts lawn.................bait thy trap with cans of cheap beer and Mc D's burgers (cheese doddles work great too)..........................hide in the bushes......and wait 6-8 weeks.

You'll catch one everytime.

One makes a great snack..........................two will feed a family........................find out where the nest is...................and your village eats for a year.

[1grnlwn]

Garry how deep does your ganja roots grow. Pretty deep I'm guessin.

Mark

At the end of the day its cut it and shut it.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Originally posted by 1grnlwn
Garry how deep does your ganja roots grow. Pretty deep I'm guessin.

I bet it is hydroponic.

That way he can play with them roots before he cuts the meat off and lights it on fire.

If you can pick the tid bits of good info out he is trying to say, you may catch something, but the rest is jibber jabber.

[Garry]

OR...............you could be the slightest bit grateful I spend the time to make things as interesting as possible.

What the fork did I tell you...................It's all encoded.

Or, did you just figure that out?

Be damn grateful I don't drone on like some of the *science* books I've read do.

AND, if I was even half as bad as you say OR smokin the bud and babbling....................I wouldn't have over 6500 views.

OR, could it be possible.....................That it is because of my *field testing* and babbling......I have over 6500 views?

Hmmmmm,...Celtics are on!....................GO BOSTON!!!!!

I hate those Pistons:(

[1grnlwn]

Uhh isn't it Matthew who has 6866 views? He started the thread. Wasn't it you that said number of posts means nothing, wouldn't views mean even less? with 72 posts on this subject I would have thought you would have covered it by now. Maybe you should let it die, put a DNR on this sucker. Then you will see grateful.

[Garry]

Ah, my friend..............you speak ill of thy servant of green knowledge.

Why is this?

On both knees, I raise my arms to the heavens, and in a voice hoarse from too many cigarettes, yet, with fevor,... yell.......with voice so loud.....................that it was Matt,... that started this thread!

They read because they seek answers.

Yet, answers are few.......... and far in number.

It appears, at times....................there are only more questions.

Maybe a story or two.........................who knows.

If one were to spend as much time moving forward as it appears at times they do pushing themselves and all around them down..........one would find their next conversation with a potential account alot easier and alot more profitable.

But then again......................what do I know?

[KirbysLawn]

Originally posted by Garry
I wouldn't have over 6500 views.

OR, could it be possible.....................That it is because of my *field testing* and babbling......I have over 6500 views?


It's all becoming clearer now. lol :rolleyes: It's over 6900 views now Garry you should get even more credit. No...wait, Matthew started this thread and it has been taken totally off topic by you. I haven't read an "on-topic" post in days.

Views are different than "reads", I've checked this thread also but have not read you last 20 or so post, to bad also, I think you have good info but it's impossible to weed thru the bulls*** and I like many others don't have time to read it all.

[Garry]

When one doesn't read OR stops listening...................they have either found all they seek, or are going to ignore all they find.

I feel for your landscapes and customers alike.

[Garry]

It was a hot, hazy, day..........just like yesterday, and all last month,... there was even a rumor, that it was to stay this way for ever. Most plants transpire,....but, not these plants,... they outwardly perspire...............the sweat pours from them like fat men in a suana. They shake too, like the young junkie that hangs out in front of the bus terminal, bumming change.

Sickly, emiciated, infected, wounded,... a low moan hung in the air, mixing with the stench of death, almost reminding one of world war one battlefields..............quite the sight...and one that stretched for thousands of square feet in all directions.

They need their fix.

They impatiently await *the man in the rubber boots*.

Their engines, running at full steam (even though they don't have to)....rev wildly at the sound of each passing truck, in hopes their dope is on the way.

No one around here works anymore, and hasn't in three years..................ever since *the man who takes whizzing steel and cuts our heads off every week (Saturday, between 9 and 10)............signed that contract....with the man in the rubber boots.

Man, we feel great after the man in the rubber boots sprays us down.

And we need it now.

Oh, those prissy, little, plants next door.......................everyone of em work,... they go around telling everyone "my body's a temple"............they're just scared.

Come on,................try a hit, ya chicken.

It's a good thing we can't move...................because, man.........they do look strong...(and their women are beauitful)................and you never hear any moaning comming from over there.

We scream in many languages....................because we're many, from many a land.

We even have a corp of migrant boarders that show up when the soil gets warm..............then split at first frost.

And, please....................we hope the guy that's bringing the stuff, doesn't rip us off like the last idiot did.

The punk left a sign that said we got fixed....................but, we didn't get no shirt.

They impatiently await the man in the rubber boots.

[lawnworker]

I dont know what to say.:confused:

[lawnstudent]

just read and try to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

jim

[Garry]

For without chaff.....................there is no wheat.

[lawnstudent]

and without chaff ............................ no wheat. How else to spread your seed of knowledge with the wind?

[KirbysLawn]

Originally posted by Garry
When one doesn't read OR stops listening...................they have either found all they seek, or are going to ignore all they find.


Good short post...I read it.

Wrong assumption! Because one chooses to ignore or filter certain items, that does not mean they “found all they seek” or “ignore all they find”. It could mean they value their time and choose to select the reading material of their choice and understand when there is more BS than substance.

[Garry]

I stand corrected.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Garry sence you lost almost everyone reading this thread can you paraphaze what you are trying to say?

And keep it to the point and leave the garbage out.

You have gone around and around so much you have not made any sence.

[Garry]

Let's touch on something that happens to be THE most plentiful substance on earth....................water.

If you're looking out your window and seeing the same thing falling from the sky that I am (and according to the weather channel, everyone is)....................I'd say we're looking at 93 all over again.

This has been one of the most incredible late winter/spring seasons I've ever seen....................except for the *warm spell a few weeks ago (one that had crabgrass rearing its ugly head on 4/20/02)........it's been some of the most condusive weather for prime plant growth.

I've been running *field capacity* for weeks now..................all fungal cycles have been disrupted by constant temperture swings............insect GDD readings aren't even as before.

I worry about the Oomycetes (water molds)

And how my turf goes to *wet wilt*......................as water pours into the spaces.... within the soil, life-giving air once occupied.

But isn't water good?

It is,...to a point....................then, it becomes like all else............"it's great,.. until...you got to much".

Do you have any idea what the scientific principle most involved in water penetration is?

It's gravity.

The water you're wading through (@-3")...is even called *gravitational water*........that, and the H2O that is pouring from the pore spaces within the soil structure.

Now the BIG FIGHT begins...............as gravity wants to make the water flow downward as far as it can (well beyond the grasp of the plants)..................but, all we're looking for is a thin film of water (that's not too much to ask for)...................and that thin film coats the soil particle and is held there by adhesion (physics book stuff)........................the water molecules are always attracted to each other by a process called cohesion (another physics book term)

You know what?.............but, when the water levels in the soil dip low........................the soil, being more powerful than the plant, will hold on to the last drops of live sustaining love.

That's got a name too....................it's called *unavailable water*

There comes a time when the equation gets blown right out of the water (no pun intended)

When input of data exceeds output................somewhere in the middle, all clogs.

Professor A. J. Turgeon (whom by the way has a great book out)............used to put a rectangle sponge in water...............then place it vertically, and ask where the *main portion* of water is?

Now, keep pouring water into that little sponge.

Keep pouring.

Hey, where's the water going?

Try it.

Then, look outside at the *big sponge*.

Hmmmmm, we're gonna wake up one day, the sun will shine bright....................the birds will sing.

The puddles will fade.

And these plants are gonna shoot to the moon.

I'm beginning to view The Weather Channel with tight butt.

[lawnstudent]

Prof Garry writes:

"........................the soil, being more powerful than the plant, will hold on to the last drops of live sustaining love.

That's got a name too....................it's called *unavailable water*

Garry, you disappoint me. You must be getting weary from all these posts. Technically "unavailable water" includes gravitational water and the water that binds to soil known as "Adhesion water". In fact, even some "cohesion water", that cohesion water below the wilt point requires too much energy for plants to tear away from other water molecules.

jim

[Garry]

When all is said and done......................THE LAST DROPS (collectively).....will be found bound to the soil particle by adhesion.

No plant, nowhere, can overcome this force.

At least as I see it, anyway.

[lawnstudent]

No contention here. Hydroscopic water (adhesion water) or the water bonded to soil particles by adhesion is unavailable to plants. But truth be told, there is more water unavailable to them plants and that includes cohesion water, water bonded to water below the wilt point. This is a significant amout of water unavialable to plants. Of all the water in soil, maybe only 25% of that water is available water for plants. 50% is gravitational water that moves through the soil too quickly for it to be of value to plants. Another 15% is hydroscopic water (water bonded to soil) and 10% is cohesion water (bonded to other water molecules) below the wilt point. Of all the water entering the soil, only 25% is available for plant use in a loam soil with good pore space. Compact that soil or add more clay or sand and you further reduce available water. Thats the point.

jim

[KirbysLawn]

Anyone ever heard of starting a new thread? All this has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. Why not start a new thread about the topic you are discussing so people will read?


http://www.lawnsite.com/lawnsite/images/newthread.gif

[Garry]

Dang there, Lawn student........................you're beginning to impress me.

The dust that once sat upon your book, now drifts silently to the floor............................not bad for an old guy. (checked your profile...........you're MUCH older than I)

Hmmmm, you have that intelligent response mode going........................whereas, Kirby, just wants to friggin whine.

My Aunt used to have a poodle named Kirby.....................little yappin shirt-dog............... (just wanted to reach out and slap that little shirt).................hey, he's fertilizer now!

[lawnstudent]

Garry writes:

".................hey, he's fertilizer now!"

Organic fert ................................. which youv'e already stated your disdain for.

Yea, I'm a crusty old fart learning new tricks. Even learning from a punk like you Garry.

jim

[lawnstudent]

Kirby,

what this all has to do with the original post is that the easiest water for a plant to use is water at field capacity. Very little energy is used by the plant to use water at this potential. Further, Nitrogen is supplied to the soil in rain water. Potassium and Phosphorus are more readily available in early spring. With optimal soil moisture (moistue at or near field capacity), all these nutrients available to our turf, and the optimum growing temps for cool season grasses we get rapid top growth rates that exceeds our mowing schedules.

jim

[Garry]

You go, Lawn student!

I like that!...........................this punk thinks you're alright.

[KirbysLawn]

Jim, my point was only a few people are responding to this thread, you guys might as well email to each other. I was suggesting starting a new thread so more people weould read what you have to say. Just a suggestion.

[lawnstudent]

Gary,

just kid'n on the punk part.

Here's a question you might want to answer? Why are the cool season grasses so focused on top growth in spring? I have my own theories, like to hear yours if you are willing to share them with the rest of us.

jim

[theplantdoctor]

Originally posted by KirbysLawn
Jim, my point was only a few people are responding to this thread, you guys might as well email to each other. I was suggesting starting a new thread so more people weould read what you have to say. Just a suggestion.

Although I have added very little to this thread, I have been getting a TON of enjoyment (and information) from it. It is the first thread I look at when I log on, and Lawnsite.com is my home page.

Garry's style, I must admit, has me drawn in. It feels like the soap operas that my wife watches. You have to check to see what is going to be said next. Then, you sift through and find the meaning.
;) :D

Ken

[Garry]

Ahhhhhhh, the question the deep-thinking mind (I'm so grateful for mine) has pondered for many a season.

And a excellent question!

First, we must look at the evolution of this plant species...AND, why it even exists.

It's simply a food soure.

For all the grazers....................which, in turn, are food for the meateaters............................and, when you put them both together, make up a good portion of this planet.

Now, let's go back many, many, millions of years ago, long before humans (and their wanton hyper-breeding).

When it got cold............most of the herbivores would hibernate.

When they awoke (in the spring)..................well, between the wild sex and all that sleep.....................they were hungry......I mean real hungry................well, that and getting rid of the huge loaf they must have to pinch.

Plus, any time now.............a whole bunch of YOUNG will arrive................and lord knows, how they eat.

If the young don't survive, before long, ain't none of us around...............and that, my brothers, is NOT what biology is all about.

Growth seems so strongly tied to soil temps.................coming from *too cold* to *just right*.........dipping back to *too cold*............warming to *just right*.................seems much easier (and quicker)..............than going from *real warm, but, not too warm*.............to *too hot*.....back to, *warm, but, not too warm*

Maybe, it's because heat kills.

And dead roots ain't good roots.

Yeah, that could be it.

What we see moving forward in the spring................is the same movie, only played backwards in the fall. (to a point)

[lawnstudent]

Good points!

Here are a few more. The survival instinct is in all species. We have evolved where evolution supports survival. Cool season grasses exist in areas that get hot and dry in summer and like you said, roots die in the heat (this certainly has been a controversial subject in the past). Storing all those carbs into roots that are going to die is not a good survival strategy. All your eggs are in one basket. Better to produce carbs in spring and put that energy into seed production. Seeds that can survive the heat and drought and can carry-on the species past the next summer or two or three. Takes a lot of energy to produce seeds. Plants have a limited energy budget. Growing top growth increases energy budget, but top growth takes lots of energy too. Can't grow lots of roots, top growth and seeds all at once. Need focus. Focus is on food production (new top growth) and seed production (for survival). Root growth takes a back seat in spring. Not that root growth doesn't happen, just not most important to species survival. Makes a good story, hugh?

jim

[Garry]

Becareful...............as the vast majority of root growth takes place in the spring....................and a little taking place in the fall.

Remember the movie? (end of my last post)

This is why the timing of the application of pre-emergent is so important.....................because, if you think that stupid-ass chemical is allowing the cool season roots to grow.....ALL THE WHILE...the *weedy grasses* are shut down..................my brother, someone done told you wrong.

Putting faith in something like Tupersan or siduron...(although reasearch has shown to differ, I'll hear the screams)...will tack your butt in the end, my brother.

Yeah, yeah, yeah..............if you're seeding,.......I know... that's a whole different animal......calm down, nobody's got me..............I'm tellin you what I'm seeing....that's all



Waiting until its effectiveness AND durability will benefit the landscape is all about timing..................and anyone on a lawn every week should have virtually no weedy grasses....Not with some of the stuff available TODAY used properly.

Wow, you got me thinking now.........................(Oh no!)

It may be possible that advanced bio-chemistry studies will find the presence of an *enzyme* that produces *hyper-growth* in the spring (kinda like a natural steroid)

Get as big and bad-ass as possible..............................then, hang on like a mutha-f......................when the heat cranks.

[lawnstudent]

Garry,

I thought the pre-m's had no mobility in the soil. Only formed barrier on soil surface. Thatch is another issue, but lets not go there now. So are these root pruners really affecting the cool season grass roots in our soils? And what is the critical timing? I understand that most root pruners have a 6 - 12 week timespan of effectiveness. Crabgrass germinates when the soil temp is greater than 55 degrees F for three consecutive or more days. And continues for weeks later. So isn't the timing based on this germination date in your area and insuring coverage through the germination season of crabgrass? Do tell.

jim

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Originally posted by Garry
Becareful...............as the vast majority of root growth takes place in the spring....................and a little taking place in the fall.



You sure about that there GARRY?

As moisture is plentifull, why would the roots need to grow deeper?

They grow but in the direction that is not what is desired.

In the Fall the roots grow downward.

So which part of the season does the most benifet for the turf.

Aaren't we always setting it up for survival and healthy growth long before that season arives?

[Garry]

And the warm season grasses do most of their root growth in the summer.

I must go now..............................but, in the words of the great Arn-nude Swartz-in-nagger..........I'll be back!

[Garry]

What all these labels and reasearch say...................and what I'm seeing through observation (and countless hours under the scope)..........seems to differ.

Go back many a post ago.....................I told you when I put pre emergents down.

Ever heard of the term "thicking of the turf"?

What does that mean?

It seems intravaginal/extravaginal tillering is okay......................but, I'm personally questioning its effect on rhizome and stolon movement.

Even though crabgrass has already reared its ugly head (a personal early record of 4/20/02)..........I still haven't put any down yet.....................a massive cold front moved through the next day, it's been cold and rainy..................and the soil got ass-biting cold again.

Of course................................if you ain't using DRIVE................you must not have heard about it yet...............or possibly, are one of those who find it expensive (oh, I love that one)

Well, at least cancels aren't expensive...................they usually find you.

[Garry]

Now is the time to ask oneself.................."Ah,....when did I put pre emergents down?"

While you're at it, ask.............."with all this rain, is it gonna be able to kick ass right through the heat of the summer"

You'll be quite surprised by your answers/findings.

[Garry]

Godfather.................I'm damn sure.

Why, are you gonna tell me otherwise?

Hmmmm, didn't think so.

Whether, it be plagiotropic (growth direction) OR diageotropic (growth direction).......................would it even matter?

I'll give you a minute to figure out what it is I'm even talking about.

It's all about how much AREA you cover.

If they can grow deeper they will..............................PLUS, the cool temps of deeper soil depths make for great task in growth production.

They just friggin grow, my brother...................wherever it's easiest,...most water, food, air, etc......that's where you find them.

In the fall they grow downward, you say.

Wow,................there's some insight, as I personally wouldn't have quessed that.

Hey, does that mean they don't go downward at all in the spring?

You know what, my brother.........................that's twice now you've spouted on about agronomic facts that you're not even close on........................what's up with that?

Do you think you can stand on a landscape and impress me?

I don't give two flying forks if anyone thinks I'm attacking you................because, I'm not!

But, I'll lock horns with your ass any day concerning agronomics.......................And, from what I've (and the world) heard from you during this thread........................I'd probably spin your ass into the very ground I'm gonna soil test, aerate/lime to correct pH.

"They grow but in the direction that is not what is desired", you said.

What, in God's name, is that to mean?

Ahhhhhhhh, was that you being clever?

Setting it up for survival?.......................That's our job!

Hey, if you don't like the thread...............................why don't you simply split......................Don't worry, we're still gonna scrap right out in the middle of a huge turf show....(time and place to be announced)

If your gonna hit me.............................then close your fist and hit me like a man.......but, if you're just gonna whine like a little ***** at me......................just go the fork away.

I may be very well at the end of my rope here on lawnsite...................what do you think I'm doing?...........entertaining your ass?..............................Yeah, like I really care about that.

I'll just write a book...........................and see if P. T. Barnum was right.

[MATTHEW]

Garry, I want you to expand on the pre-m problem of root inhibition. As far as I know, most pre-emergents are a powder coat on granular and do not penetrate much more than an inch. Correct me if I'm wrong, but how would that inhibit roots at 18"?

[LAWNGODFATHER]

See you wasted all that time typing what is laboratory threory.


"Do you think you can stand on a landscape and impress me"?

WTF that does that mean. Type in english!!!