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View Full Version : MSMA (Good vs. Bad)


lawnspecialties
07-23-2009, 02:07 PM
I'm becoming a big fan of MSMA. I bought some Target 6.6 from JDL and it's proving to be quite beneficial in the bermudagrass vs. crabgrass.

But I do have a few questions being how this is my first year of spraying post-emergent herbicides.

1. What's with MSMA regarding environmental concerns? Is it not true they can't make MSMA anymore? If so, why? I was told once it's all gone, that's it.

2. Is there anything else comparable for crabgrass control in bermudagrass? It appears Q4 will possibly be labeled for bermudagrass and of course, there's Drive, but in my opinion, they're no better but more expensive.

EVM
07-23-2009, 02:27 PM
I'm becoming a big fan of MSMA. I bought some Target 6.6 from JDL and it's proving to be quite beneficial in the bermudagrass vs. crabgrass.

But I do have a few questions being how this is my first year of spraying post-emergent herbicides.

1. What's with MSMA regarding environmental concerns? Is it not true they can't make MSMA anymore? If so, why? I was told once it's all gone, that's it.

2. Is there anything else comparable for crabgrass control in bermudagrass? It appears Q4 will possibly be labeled for bermudagrass and of course, there's Drive, but in my opinion, they're no better but more expensive.

MSMA is a hot herbicide i think. I think i spray MS at 1 ounce per 2.5k
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VARMIT COMMISSION
07-23-2009, 03:49 PM
MSMA rocks! It control's so many grassy weeds and covers quite a few broadleafs too. Main one is dandy's. 2010 is the last year here in oklahoma to apply it. There is no replacement either. Drive doesnt even compare to the list of weeds MSMA will control. Q4's expensive too and I have yet to hear from anyone here in Oklahoma who use's it and is satisfied with it. Drive in the south will fry our grass faster and longer than MSMA will. Probably the MSO that makes it so hot. MSMA with no sticker added works just fine in hot temps.

greendoctor
07-23-2009, 04:12 PM
One thing to note about Drive in the South is its lack of activity on goosegrass. I remember talking to someone from BASF about Drive and they told me I was not missing much, because it would actually cause a weed population to shift from crabgrass to goosegrass. That would be significant for BASF, given that Bayer makes the alternative goosegrass herbicides for use in bermuda.

johnsonslawnmanagement
07-23-2009, 06:40 PM
The whole fuss over MSMA is it's arsenic content. I have heard may rumors that it will be off the market but no signs of stopping here in the south
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lilmarvin4064
07-23-2009, 07:58 PM
from what I understand the "arsenate" in it bonds tightly with soil particles and shouldn't move much, but I could be wrong. MSMA works good and is cheap. I use it pretty much only for Dallisgrass and Broomsedge. I usually only spot spray (and once or twice burnt and a few spots down to the ground) oops. You have to be very carefull with weather conditions (temp,etc) and mix rate. There is little room for error. A few areas that I blanket sprayed, I considered myself lucky (removed Broomsedge w/ 1 app) reseeded 1 month later and it is looking great! (last year) I talked with a knowledgable guy about MSMA about a week ago. He said it can only be sold through 2010, but if you have it after that, you can still use it; not really sure?..

Also I'm a big fan of organosilicone surfactants, I use them with everything. They seem to have less phytotoxic potential than the MSO, and alkylaryl .... stuff, at least from what I've seen.

Oh, and my opinion on Q4, it only has a 3/4 rate of quin, and 1/2 rate of sulfentrazone. They need to tweak the formula. I have much better results mixing my own. Plus they're still using the dimethlyamine salt of 2,4-D? Why not TIPA or MCPA instead? maybe too expensive?

grassman177
07-23-2009, 09:15 PM
i have had good luck with q4 here. but it does not cover those dallisgrass and johnson like msma. i just stocked up on it so i have plenty for years to come as for now there is nothing else to get those weeds. i have sprayed trimec plus in 85 degrees out of my zspray and it did great. i was worried but did great. they better come up with an alternative to kill those weeds or we are gong to get bit

Grass.Catcher
07-24-2009, 04:13 PM
MSMA is being phased out. You can buy it throuh 2009 nad use it until the end of 2010. You will no longer be able to purchase it after this year.

greendoctor
07-24-2009, 04:20 PM
Note that this ban might be written such that all unused MSMA in your inventory might have to be turned in after 2010. I am hoping that reasonable minds prevail and it is found that a routine application to turf grown on normal soil does not leach arsenic into groundwater. Whoever was/is spraying this on sandy soils on a high water table right before heavy rainfall is expected screwed the pooch for all of us.

Think Green
07-24-2009, 10:24 PM
Same here in the Delta, MSMA will be discontinued and sold after 2010. I am under the impression, that it will be used in small quaranteed places like the golf courses and sod production fascilities, and will not be available for the general market. I surmise the EPA will restrict this product and make it hard to purchase.
MSMA is used here as a pre plant burn down next to glyphosate. It is definately cheaper to use and kills more weeds than most expensive counterparts. It is a widely used herbicide in the south--it takes heat to make this product work effectively!!
It bonds with soil particles here in our pedical soils?? Elemental Arsenic is considered poisoning to the water table. The EPA plans on post-studying the water and soil composites after the ban. I want to know what they find.............probably-- Jimmy Hoffa too!!!?

JFF
07-25-2009, 01:52 AM
Note that this ban might be written such that all unused MSMA in your inventory might have to be turned in after 2010. I am hoping that reasonable minds prevail and it is found that a routine application to turf grown on normal soil does not leach arsenic into groundwater. Whoever was/is spraying this on sandy soils on a high water table right before heavy rainfall is expected screwed the pooch for all of us.

See, that's the part that really makes no sense. Turn it in? So they can dispose of the concentrate en mass? Why not just let the licensed applicators continue to use their stockpiles at label rates until it is gone?

You can almost bet someone is going to make a killing on this deal one way or another.

ted putnam
07-25-2009, 02:33 AM
What's sad is that it is a very necessary tool (especially for us in the South) that they will be taking away. I use it very sparingly. For the most part I spot treat only where necessary. Very rarely do I blanket a lawn. I thinkif there has been a problem with overuse/misuse it would be AG, golf courses and/or homeowners. They should make it an RUP and quit selling it to every Tom, Dick and Harry that walks in the door at Lowes and HD. When it's gone, there will be no way I will be able to get some of these new lawns I get each year into shape. It's sad that because some golf course in Florida misused it and it ran through the beach sand they have for soil down there that the EPA has decided to ban it for everyone...everywhere:cry:

greendoctor
07-25-2009, 02:51 AM
The highest concentrations of arsenic in groundwater were found in Southern Florida under golf courses. Florida is where a total ban on MSMA usage takes place in 2010. Shoulda, coulda woulda, is the story here. Spraying water soluble herbicides on sandy soil the same day it is going to rain 2-3 inches that afternoon is not good product stewardship. I know I do not spray ANYTHING, not even a fertilizer if I am expecting more than a light rain within 24 hours of application. Nothing evokes more fear than elemental arsenic. After all, it was the preferred method to assassinate heads of state or collect inheritances. However, the real supposed issue is that there is a remote chance that arsenic causes cancer. According to the EPA of the past 20 years, anything that causes cancer needs to be taken off of the market. They do not want existing stocks of MSMA to add to the supposed arsenic contamination of water. Reading the official EPA RED(Reregistration Eligibility Documents) opened my eyes to how much fear, paranoia and speculation on risk goes into the decision to restrict or ban a product.

For burndown prior to planting field crops, I would prefer paraquat or diquat. Here in Hawaii, those two drop vegetation within 8-12 hours. MSMA does take 2-3 days to work. On a per acre basis, paraquat is actually the cheapest. You already know that I am not beholden to glyphosate. In total kill situations, I know of many weeds that will escape even maximum label rates. I am going to miss MSMA for bare ground applications. In ag, a recommended burndown mix is 2,4-D ester + paraquat. The ester cleans up the broadleaves that tend to regenerate from roots if the "quat" fries off the leaves.

greendoctor
07-25-2009, 03:01 AM
What's sad is that it is a very necessary tool (especially for us in the South) that they will be taking away. I use it very sparingly. For the most part I spot treat only where necessary. Very rarely do I blanket a lawn. I thinkif there has been a problem with overuse/misuse it would be AG, golf courses and/or homeowners. They should make it an RUP and quit selling it to every Tom, Dick and Harry that walks in the door at Lowes and HD. When it's gone, there will be no way I will be able to get some of these new lawns I get each year into shape. It's sad that because some golf course in Florida misused it and it ran through the beach sand they have for soil down there that the EPA has decided to ban it for everyone...everywhere:cry:

I think it is more like every golf course, athletic field and lawn person that added to the problem. Spraying on a day that they knew it was going to rain hard enough to move product into the water table.:hammerhead: I do not care if some University of Florida researcher said it would still work if the MSMA was sprayed 8 hour before a 3" thunderstorm. It is just common sense to me not to do anything that would end up in ground or surface water. I live under a quinclorac(Drive) and sulfentrazone(Dismiss, Surge) ban. Would not want to find out what else the Hawaii DOA wants to ban. They already restricted bromacil, atrazine/simazine and hexazinone.

ted putnam
07-25-2009, 03:45 AM
I think it is more like every golf course, athletic field and lawn person that added to the problem. Spraying on a day that they knew it was going to rain hard enough to move product into the water table.:hammerhead: I do not care if some University of Florida researcher said it would still work if the MSMA was sprayed 8 hour before a 3" thunderstorm. It is just common sense to me not to do anything that would end up in ground or surface water. I live under a quinclorac(Drive) and sulfentrazone(Dismiss, Surge) ban. Would not want to find out what else the Hawaii DOA wants to ban. They already restricted bromacil, atrazine/simazine and hexazinone.

You'll really be screwed. No MSMA or quinclorac either. I guess you'll be handpicking crabgrass. At least I'll still have quinclorac... if that could even be called a good thing. I can see it now..."Yes sir, I can rid your lawn of the crabgrass but there's nothing I can do about the Dallisgrass, carpetgrass barnyard grass and paspalum. Sorry, I can spray it with Glyphos if you like. However, I need you to sign this waiver of liability before I do because your lawn will look like the airfield on Midway Island from WWII and I can't be held responsible for any damage done." Yep, I oughta get new sales out the Wazoo using that sales pitch....

greendoctor
07-25-2009, 03:51 AM
I can still use Certainty, Corsair, Image, Revolver and Sencor. The DOA does not mind that I apply simazine to lawns because I am very responsible about it. Crabgrass is not really a big problem in Hawaii. Most of the MSMA applied is for goosegrass, dallisgrass, paspalums and smutgrass. Already, I am putting lawns on the alternative herbicides. Should they not work too well, I can still hit them with MSMA + simazine until 2010.

RoundUp on a paintbrush is already a standard in my arsenal. I will not spot treat with MSMA. Spot treatments of grassy weeds are done with a 2" house brush and 30% RoundUp. If I have to mark up someone's lawn, the grassy weeds are going to die the first go round.

Think Green
07-26-2009, 01:14 AM
GreenDoctor,
The remark of 2-4D Ester and Paraquat is right on at certain stages of pre-plow.
The funny thing is, Arkansas is under 2-4D restrictions at certain months of the year. (Farmer's are shaking in their boots)
Can't have any drift that kills cotton, soybean, wheat! Mostly Rice!!!!

Think Green
07-26-2009, 01:24 AM
GreenDoctor,
Check your PM's
Thank you!!

shortgrass01
06-12-2010, 08:20 AM
Good For me, I loved using MSMA; It pisses me off they claim its harmful.

Guess I get to charge more now...:waving:

cgaengineer
06-12-2010, 09:19 AM
MSMA is a hot herbicide i think. I think i spray MS at 1 ounce per 2.5k
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That seems like a pretty low rate, I dont think you would kill much of anything at that rate.

grass4gas
06-13-2010, 07:45 AM
That seems like a pretty low rate, I dont think you would kill much of anything at that rate.

I agree. 1oz/gal is what I use.

tremor
06-13-2010, 11:04 AM
A few years ago a DIYer had a hose end sprayer with a Trimec Plus like cocktail . A local manufacturing firm drew a massive volume of municipal water while Joe homeowner was spraying his lawn. Joe couldn't spray so he went into the AC for a break. Before resuming his task, the guy pulled some water to drink. Without adequate back flow prevention the poor SOB got a near lethal dose.

Soooo, now all hose bibs are supposed to have backflow protection and MSMA is doomed.

Target 6.6 is/was a valuable tool in skilled hands. Quinclorac is safer/better but it sill never truly replace MSMA /DSMA.

Stock up soon.

Chilehead
06-13-2010, 11:54 AM
Target 6.6 is/was a valuable tool in skilled hands. Quinclorac is safer/better but it sill never truly replace MSMA /DSMA.

Stock up soon.

I stocked up not too long ago. If I hold it long enough, I should be able to sell it on the black market for a hefty sum.:laugh:

grassman177
06-13-2010, 06:49 PM
personally i still think we as an industry shouuld and could lobby to get the gov to outlawn any use of pesticides by any hoemowner at all, and i assure you that contamination would go down, and yes i am aware that there are stupid applicators doing wrong too. i am gonig to miss msma, i have stocked up on it, but accroding to law i have to use it by i think 2011 or turn it in for disposal, crap i say

cgaengineer
06-13-2010, 07:11 PM
personally i still think we as an industry shouuld and could lobby to get the gov to outlawn any use of pesticides by any hoemowner at all, and i assure you that contamination would go down, and yes i am aware that there are stupid applicators doing wrong too. i am gonig to miss msma, i have stocked up on it, but accroding to law i have to use it by i think 2011 or turn it in for disposal, crap i say

I dont think we should outlaw, but we should require a course and a test with a passing grade of 70% or better.

RigglePLC
06-13-2010, 07:58 PM
In fact, a few minutes ago I saw a home owner spraying an insecticide around her house for insects. One gal can and short hose with a trigger sprayer. No eye protection. No gloves. Shorts. Flip flops on her feet. Not sure what the label directions say. Probably Orhto Home Defense Max. Sorry not talking about MSMA.

cgaengineer
06-13-2010, 08:00 PM
In fact, a few minutes ago I saw a home owner spraying an insecticide around her house for insects. One gal can and short hose with a trigger sprayer. No eye protection. No gloves. Shorts. Flip flops on her feet. Not sure what the label directions say. Probably Orhto Home Defense Max. Sorry not talking about MSMA.

Sounds like the safety equipment I use. :)
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grassman177
06-13-2010, 08:24 PM
it is relevant though riggle, as this is many of the reasons why things get outlawed and banned, not just actual issues in the environment from normal use, it is over use, misuse and not using precautions such as proper ppe