Deere smack down

[ksss]

Check this out and see if you can spot the problem.

Hint: Check the distance from concrete block to pallet forks on the machines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtJM2Bddzj8&feature=related

[Bleed Green]

you mean the fact that the block is not all the way back on the forks? cause I noticed the same thing when I watched it the first time.

[Gravel Rat]

What a B.S test. The Case machine would have picked the blocks if the forks were all the way into the skid.

[Dirtman2007]

HAHA! Funny how Takeuchi, the creator of the tracked skid steer is not in the competition. I really doubt it that the cat didn't pick it up, that machine is huge!

[CAT powered]

I'd like to see them use the same machine for all tests. ie: Cat 236 for all the tests or CAT 299C or whatever. None of this pick and choose what model Deere will do best.

And I'd like to see a Gehl in their power lift competition. It'll send the Deere home with its tail between its legs.

[Duffster]

Even if it was all the way back wouldn't it still have tipped when it got to the height of the bar since it would have still lost that 6" with the radial path?

[Gravel Rat]

Myself I have ran forklift for years and nothing can beat a standard forklift. I have used forks on a skid steer, rubber tired backhoe and wheel loader.

The forkifts I used to run at the lumber yard were rated at 11,000lbs I used to lift 12,000lbs but I had the experience to do it. Get 12,000lbs of lumber 10-12 feet in the air you need to know what your doing especially if its 20 foot long lumber.

I find that Youtube vid funny.

[bobcat_ron]

Take off 400 pounds and then see.

[WillieWonka1850]

Seriously what BS.
I agree with GR. Case should've easily lifted that. ;)
And really, lifting that much weight is bad for the machine and kinda dangerous.
What if a hyd line blew? :nono:

It didn't even sound like those machines where even at high rpm or lugging.
The blocks weren't even all the way on the pallets. And I guess they never heard of the word, curl

Wheres Takkie/Gehl/Mustang/ and ASV? :confused:

Its me or I smell rig. Plus the show is sponsored by Deere. :rolleyes:
Who would win if it was sponsored by Caterpillar or Bobcat? :drinkup:

[Gravel Rat]

Seriously what BS.
I agree with GR. Case should've easily lifted that. ;)
And really, lifting that much weight is bad for the machine and kinda dangerous.
What if a hyd line blew? :nono:

It didn't even sound like those machines where even at high rpm or lugging.
The blocks weren't even all the way on the pallets. And I guess they never heard of the word, curl

Wheres Takkie/Gehl/Mustang/ and ASV? :confused:

Its me or I smell rig. Plus the show is sponsored by Deere. :rolleyes:
Who would win if it was sponsored by Caterpillar or Bobcat? :drinkup:

Like I said I have many years behind the wheel of a forklift you get to know what the limitations are. You also learn how to steer with the brakes when the rear wheels lift off the ground. Just part of running a forklift. You always keep the load low anyways but in a lumber yard you have lots of obstructions.

If you have a heavy load to lift that is maxing the capacity of the machine you always roll back the load before you lift. Never lift and try roll it back it will never lift anything.

[Mr. Rain]

Who would win if it was sponsored by Caterpillar or Bobcat? :drinkup:

Lifting that weight, pretty sure it would still be the Deere.

If all this is rigged and a bunch of B.S., why hasn't anybody made a video of these machines doing what they can't accomplish in the smackdown videos??? Take those same machines in stock form without added counterweights and flat lift a 6400#, or whatever it is, block. Not just some heavy pallet of pavers or a big log or whatever is handy, but that actual amount of weight. That would be the end of the debate, right?

[ccstrebe]

What a scam. False advertising at its best.

What value is there in the ability to lift all that weight when if the operator would have move forward in the least degree the machine would have tipped forward and lost the load.

I say the other machines couldn't lift the load because the manufacture's know better than to allow their machines to lift more than is safe.

Could you imagine actually lifting an unsafe load like that and accidentally dropping it on someone or something.

I call BS!!

[Mr. Rain]

What a scam. False advertising at its best.

What value is there in the ability to lift all that weight when if the operator would have move forward in the least degree the machine would have tipped forward and lost the load.

I say the other machines couldn't lift the load because the manufacture's know better than to allow their machines to lift more than is safe.

Could you imagine actually lifting an unsafe load like that and accidentally dropping it on someone or something.

I call BS!!

So you've never seen anybody hanging on the back of a skid other than a Deere to try to keep the a$$ down? If a machine is carrying a load on the front wheels only, I think that kills your theory of manufacturers limiting capacity for safety. How many companies offer counterweights for added capacity? Pretty much all of them. Counterweights don't change the hydraulics of a skid last time I checked.

As far as the value of lifting that weight, doesn't mean you'd want to, but you could, and you're able to carry more weight safely than the other guys if they're tipping or unable to get it off the ground, right? Sounds like a productivity benefit to me.

Lifting ability doesn't make it the end-all best machine on the planet, but just because it outperforms your favorite color in some respects shouldn't make the tests automatically "rigged".

[CAT powered]

When something like that is sponsored by a manufacturer then it is almost 100% guaranteed to be biased. If you honestly believe that Deere is the best machine in every possible category then you're pretty naive. Deere hasn't taken anything but 1st place in those little "smackdown" videos.

If you need to have guys hanging off the back of your machine you need to re-think the way you operate. If you had osha walk onto your site and see 2 guys hanging off the back of a skidsteer you'd be having a bad day.

If you have the largest skid and need more capacity then you might want to move up to a loader or a Lull. Or you need to move whatever it is in 2 trips rather than 1. Much safer and could be more efficient.

[SiteSolutions]

Check this out and see if you can spot the problem.

Hint: Check the distance from concrete block to pallet forks on the machines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtJM2Bddzj8&feature=related

Yeah, that Case was the only machine besides the deere to actually lift that block... too bad the operator was having a "senior moment" and didn't get all the way under the load. And the funny thing is, on paper, the Case specs lowest of all the competitors, but appeared to have the most guts of all of them.

What do you think explains that, Shane? I am guessing the high relief pressure and torque numbers go a long way toward letting an operator get all the capability out of the machine.

[WillieWonka1850]

Yeah, that Case was the only machine besides the deere to actually lift that block... too bad the operator was having a "senior moment" and didn't get all the way under the load. And the funny thing is, on paper, the Case specs lowest of all the competitors, but appeared to have the most guts of all of them.

What do you think explains that, Shane? I am guessing the high relief pressure and torque numbers go a long way toward letting an operator get all the capability out of the machine.
Yeah, if you notice the Case lifted it faster than the Deere! Deere hesitated :nono:

[Mr. Rain]

When something like that is sponsored by a manufacturer then it is almost 100% guaranteed to be biased. If you honestly believe that Deere is the best machine in every possible category then you're pretty naive. Deere hasn't taken anything but 1st place in those little "smackdown" videos.


If you need to have guys hanging off the back of your machine you need to re-think the way you operate. If you had osha walk onto your site and see 2 guys hanging off the back of a skidsteer you'd be having a bad day.

If you have the largest skid and need more capacity then you might want to move up to a loader or a Lull. Or you need to move whatever it is in 2 trips rather than 1. Much safer and could be more efficient.

If you were promoting your business against your competitors, wouldn't you focus on your strongest points?

Sad truth is, in the real world, guys hang on machines every day like it or not when they're a little short on machine.

Why all the interest in the rumored T380 or whatever it is if a 3200# ROC machine is already overkill?

[ksss]

Yeah, that Case was the only machine besides the deere to actually lift that block... too bad the operator was having a "senior moment" and didn't get all the way under the load. And the funny thing is, on paper, the Case specs lowest of all the competitors, but appeared to have the most guts of all of them.

What do you think explains that, Shane? I am guessing the high relief pressure and torque numbers go a long way toward letting an operator get all the capability out of the machine.


I really don't know. I agree, if you check the spec sheet the 450 CT should not win any lifting contest. The machine is very heavy and I agree it must have some high relief setting those combined, appear to make it pretty competent in heavy lifting. I have no doubt that with a better operator the machine certainly had the ability to lift the block. The conspiracy theorist in my says that the reason the CASE was about 4-5 inches away from properly setting the forks into the load was because the CASE machine could also lift the load if properly placed.

By watching the video the CASE almost effortlessly lifted the block. It appeared it have the capacity to at least vertically lift more weight.

CASE is releasing the 465 in a tracked machine shortly so I am told. I always thought that was really needed, but other than reach, it appears that the 450 holds it own very well, even among better specing, vertical lift machines.

[Duffster]

The conspiracy theorist in my says that the reason the CASE was about 4-5 inches away from properly setting the forks into the load was because the CASE machine could also lift the load if properly placed.

I think he was trying to be safe about it.

It would have tipped at the height of the ba anyway.

[Canon Landscaping]

That was bs not putting the forks all the way in with the case it looks like the case would of lifted it. Deere can lift weight but it brings it in so close to the machine it kills your reach.

In this picture the pallet weighed 3,900lb we just put it on the scale before lifting it we had to put it on the end of the forks like this because of the short reach at truck bed height.

[ksss]

I think he was trying to be safe about it.

It would have tipped at the height of the ba anyway.

Well safe would have been snugging the forks up against the load. Tilt the load back and it might have lifted it. Guess we will never know for sure.


If the operator was a pussy, he should have left the controls to someone else. My opinion of course. The operator failed to realize that he was representing PowerTan, no room for half-way operators, he was no doubt "planted" by the opposition!

[Duffster]

Well safe would have been snugging the forks up against the load. Tilt the load back and it might have lifted it. Guess we will never know for sure.


If the operator was a pussy, he should have left the controls to someone else. My opinion of course. The operator failed to realize that he was representing PowerTan, no room for half-way operators, he was no doubt "planted" by the opposition!

I think you missed my point.

Even if at the back of the forks it would have tipped anyway at a higher point because of the radial lift.

[Skidsteerman]

Seriously what BS.
I agree with GR. Case should've easily lifted that. ;)
And really, lifting that much weight is bad for the machine and kinda dangerous.
What if a hyd line blew? :nono:

It didn't even sound like those machines where even at high rpm or lugging.
The blocks weren't even all the way on the pallets. And I guess they never heard of the word, curl

Wheres Takkie/Gehl/Mustang/ and ASV? :confused:

Its me or I smell rig. Plus the show is sponsored by Deere. :rolleyes:
Who would win if it was sponsored by Caterpillar or Bobcat? :drinkup:

Case operator should have had the load up against the pallet fork mounting frame - strange to leave a gap. I know I know, it was staged that way.

It appears they are trying to curl the load back if you pay attention to the video you can see the pallet forks trying to curl back the load. They don't curl the Deere back so why should they on the other units?

These machines should be able to handle this lifting stress, I know the Deere can. All MFG's have boom/bucket and system relief valves to protect the hydraulic system. This is why you will hear a hissing sound when the hydros go over limit and stall out. Hoses around the operator should have a protective covering on them as well in case of hose rupture.

I have people lifting things heavy like that all the time, concrete bunkers, retaining wall block etc etc. I've been on jobs that both the large frame Cat and the Bobcat T320 can not lift what the Deere CT332 will. Don't believe it, try it for yourself.

So, how come none of the competitors offer up videos like this? Why would you think it's staged? Because Deere put it on and they can't possibly be honest about it? I do which they put a Take in that stack up also, I don't like that they didn't. Only reason I can tell you is that they are doing this against the top competitors. In reality, Take/Gehl/Mustang/ASV don't hold as much market share as the competitors they used in this lifting rodeo.

Doesn't matter, in several months it will be outdated anyway.

[DeereMan85]

As a Deere salesman, I agree that the tone of the videos is juvenile and probably turns off a lot of people, especially those loyal to other brands.

There are training videos of Deere machines (admittedly from 2006, so they may no longer win as often) performing the same tests in a more controlled environment and winning more often than not. That being said, the models shown for each test are not always the same, leading one to believe that Deere chose to show the particular size class in which they performed best.

Deere's mantra for skids is "Productivity, Uptime, Low Daily Operating Cost."

Productivity
-Greater degree of bucket rollback, allowing more material in bucket
-60/40 weight distribution for less bucking and better hill climbing
-Lifting ability, mainly because of the lift pattern in the "work zone"
-Pushing ability of CTLs, especially CT332

Uptime
-Longer service intervals than many competitors=less time in shop
-Easy access to daily service checkpoints
-Accessibility for repairs

Low Daily Operating Cost
-Long service intervals=less time and supplies
-Serviceability=less time spent on service and repairs

Not every model is better in every category, but these are the general selling points for us to focus on. Notice how these points match up fairly well with the contests? Also, notice how there is no ingress/egress time trial, side visibility contest, or game demonstrating joystick smoothness?

The point is, of course the contests are tailored to Deere's strengths. They paid for the videos. Besides that, it's fairly obvious that this is more of an attempt to create buzz than to seriously "smack down" competitors. Too bad it comes across as gimmicky or Deere could have turned all this attention into some sales.

[Skidsteerman]

As a Deere salesman, I agree that the tone of the videos is juvenile and probably turns off a lot of people, especially those loyal to other brands.

There are training videos of Deere machines (admittedly from 2006, so they may no longer win as often) performing the same tests in a more controlled environment and winning more often than not. That being said, the models shown for each test are not always the same, leading one to believe that Deere chose to show the particular size class in which they performed best.

Deere's mantra for skids is "Productivity, Uptime, Low Daily Operating Cost."

Productivity
-Greater degree of bucket rollback, allowing more material in bucket
-60/40 weight distribution for less bucking and better hill climbing
-Lifting ability, mainly because of the lift pattern in the "work zone"
-Pushing ability of CTLs, especially CT332

Uptime
-Longer service intervals than many competitors=less time in shop
-Easy access to daily service checkpoints
-Accessibility for repairs

Low Daily Operating Cost
-Long service intervals=less time and supplies
-Serviceability=less time spent on service and repairs

Not every model is better in every category, but these are the general selling points for us to focus on. Notice how these points match up fairly well with the contests? Also, notice how there is no ingress/egress time trial, side visibility contest, or game demonstrating joystick smoothness?

The point is, of course the contests are tailored to Deere's strengths. They paid for the videos. Besides that, it's fairly obvious that this is more of an attempt to create buzz than to seriously "smack down" competitors. Too bad it comes across as gimmicky or Deere could have turned all this attention into some sales.

I agree, I'm not a big fan of their smack down advertisement. I think it could have been better spent in different areas or at least less drama like the older competitor side by side video test.

It is doing one thing though - getting people to talk about it whether they like smack down or not. Not much different then allot of pickup truck commercials though, kind of in stride with allot of those type of advertisements. Just not common with construction equipment I suppose.

[stuvecorp]

The point is, of course the contests are tailored to Deere's strengths. They paid for the videos. Besides that, it's fairly obvious that this is more of an attempt to create buzz than to seriously "smack down" competitors. Too bad it comes across as gimmicky or Deere could have turned all this attention into some sales.

I'm with you on that, I don't think it is helping Deere.

[Duffster]

Doesn't matter, in several months it will be outdated anyway.

Will it be that long yet?

Earlier in the year they where saying early fall but you know how that goes.

[DeereMan85]

It is doing one thing though - getting people to talk about it whether they like smack down or not.

I see what you're saying. Like the old adage, "There's no such thing as bad publicity." The thing is, that's not true. Farmers and contractors are good ol' boys who take their equipment purchases seriously. Deere might as well have gotten Ron Popeil to pimp their skid steers. I don't think we want to be known as the "Pocket Fisherman" of compact equipment.

[DeereMan85]

Will it be that long yet?

Earlier in the year they where saying early fall but you know how that goes.

Who knows. I've heard dates ranging from early fall to next spring. No idea which is true. Actual retooling doesn't take more than a couple months. Union negotiations and time for dealers to clear existing inventory will be what extends the timeline.

[ksss]

As a Deere salesman, I agree that the tone of the videos is juvenile and probably turns off a lot of people, especially those loyal to other brands.

There are training videos of Deere machines (admittedly from 2006, so they may no longer win as often) performing the same tests in a more controlled environment and winning more often than not. That being said, the models shown for each test are not always the same, leading one to believe that Deere chose to show the particular size class in which they performed best.

Deere's mantra for skids is "Productivity, Uptime, Low Daily Operating Cost."

Productivity
-Greater degree of bucket rollback, allowing more material in bucket
-60/40 weight distribution for less bucking and better hill climbing
-Lifting ability, mainly because of the lift pattern in the "work zone"
-Pushing ability of CTLs, especially CT332

Uptime
-Longer service intervals than many competitors=less time in shop
-Easy access to daily service checkpoints
-Accessibility for repairs

Low Daily Operating Cost
-Long service intervals=less time and supplies
-Serviceability=less time spent on service and repairs

Not every model is better in every category, but these are the general selling points for us to focus on. Notice how these points match up fairly well with the contests? Also, notice how there is no ingress/egress time trial, side visibility contest, or game demonstrating joystick smoothness?

The point is, of course the contests are tailored to Deere's strengths. They paid for the videos. Besides that, it's fairly obvious that this is more of an attempt to create buzz than to seriously "smack down" competitors. Too bad it comes across as gimmicky or Deere could have turned all this attention into some sales.




Well put and spot on IMHO. If they had left the WWF fanfare behind and approached it alittle more seriously I think it would have made the results more believable. As it is, they are out there promoting the positives of their machine, that is how you start to sell them.

Unlikely you sway many from other brands just by watching as you can see everyone is a cynic including me. However you may get more demo opportunities from competetive owners, that might roll into a sale.

I would have liked to participated in the Smackdown at WOC. They called but couldn't make it. Was kind of BS the way they were running it anyway as I recall.

[Digdeep]

Only reason I can tell you is that they are doing this against the top competitors. In reality, Take/Gehl/Mustang/ASV don't hold as much market share as the competitors they used in this lifting rodeo.

ASV has greater national market share in CTLs than either Case or NH. So does Takeuchi. Both ASV and Takeuchi are neck and neck nationally with thousands more machines in the market than Deere has over the last couple of years. I still think they pick and choose. Were you aware that Nh hydraulically limits how much their machines can lift. Deere should have looked at the spec sheet.

[Mr. Rain]

ASV has greater national market share in CTLs than either Case or NH. So does Takeuchi. Both ASV and Takeuchi are neck and neck nationally with thousands more machines in the market than Deere has over the last couple of years. I still think they pick and choose. Were you aware that Nh hydraulically limits how much their machines can lift. Deere should have looked at the spec sheet.

That's kind of like the Case is #2 in all time machines sold stat. Doesn't really mean much in the current scope. Deere is selling more track machines per year than Tak, ASV, Case, or New Holland, and have done that with only 2 models.

I believe New Holland limits hydraulics because the "Super Boom" isn't really that super and is prone to failures if they give it any more juice.

[DeereMan85]

NH machines are, or at least were in the past, prone to boom cracking. From what I've heard, they started using the Super Boom name as a way to counter bad publicity over their weak booms. This was primarily in pushing situations or in situations where a heavy load was carried too high over uneven ground, creating excessive boom sway.

As far as limiting machines hydraulically, it's a difference in philosophy. Deere engineers feel it's up to the operator to determine the limits of the machine based on the conditions. ROC is just a number rating stability at a certain point in the lift cycle. Hydraulics, steel thickness, horsepower, etc. are irrelevant. A skid steer, structurally, should be able to at least handle its tipping load (2xROC for skids; 3xROC for CTLs, which btw usually share a frame with a skid of lesser ROC). What is safe to lift and carry depends on lift pattern, terrain, carrying height, straight or turning path, etc., etc.,etc. "Overloading" the machine won't necessarily lead to failure. Deeres will usually tip forward before they run out of hydraulic power--with most manufacturers, the opposite. It's not necessarily a sign of superior engineering. However, many Deere owners do appreciate that they can determine the limits of the machine rather than being limited to lifting an arbitrary number chosen by someone else.

[bobcat_ron]

ROC is a mere "suggestion", like road signs, sure you don't need to read them to know where you are ging, but it helps when you are making a U turn.

[BIGBEN2004]

That Case could have easily picked up that block so that is why they had the guy only use part of the forks. I also think the Cat should have picked that up also. I would imagine Deere trying to make their machine look good but it is funny around here they still don't sell as well as NH and Bobcat.

[Digdeep]

Deere is selling more track machines per year than Tak, ASV, Case, or New Holland, and have done that with only 2 models.

Are you sure about that? While I will admit that they've done well with two models I wouldn't put Deere much higher in CTL market share than their skids which is about 9-10% nationally. Takeuchi and ASV would be close to a push with them.

My main point is that they used NH which definitely has less market share than either TAK or ASV. And we agree that NH limits their hydraulics so why use it? Throw the big TL250 and PT100 into the mix and see how they shake out. I think that lifting 6k lbs is impressive but I want to see the machines hooked up to a tractor pull sled to demonstrate sheer traction ability and I want to see them do a stock pile test loading trucks, lets see a test that demonstrates true aux hydraulic horsepower and cooling (stump grinding, cold planer, brush mulcher, etc.). Something other than what falls out of the scope of manufacturer, AEM, OSHA or SAE recommendations.

[SiteSolutions]

Just wanted to chime in that the slick topped announcer proved his lack of understanding of what was happening in the video: when the Case had given up it's lift and was backing away, he said something about it not having enough power which was obviously the complete opposite of the situation. It had plenty of guts but the way it was lifting it wasn't stable enough to use that power.

******ed like a used car salesman... "See, that A/C blows good and cold once the turbos kick in":dizzy:

[CAT powered]

I feel bad for the Deere dealers on this one. I may have considered a Deere unit before if it was priced right, but I'm pretty disgusted with the way Deere is behaving itself as far as those videos go. They're just stupid and I know I can't be the only person who feels that way. It just makes me feel that if their promotions are that gimmicky then their machines probably are too.

And for the record no I wouldn't trust any tests against another brand that were funded/performed by a manufacturer.

Now if it was shane, ron, picasso, and whoever else with their own machines performing the tests on their own I would trust the result FAR more than anything from a manufacturer or a dealer.

[Dirtman2007]

I feel bad for the Deere dealers on this one. I may have considered a Deere unit before if it was priced right, but I'm pretty disgusted with the way Deere is behaving itself as far as those videos go. They're just stupid and I know I can't be the only person who feels that way. It just makes me feel that if their promotions are that gimmicky then their machines probably are too.

And for the record no I wouldn't trust any tests against another brand that were funded/performed by a manufacturer.

Now if it was shane, ron, picasso, and whoever else with their own machines performing the tests on their own I would trust the result FAR more than anything from a manufacturer or a dealer.

I think we need to do our own test.. its just hard to know how much something weighs to do so.....

[Mr. Rain]

Are you sure about that? While I will admit that they've done well with two models I wouldn't put Deere much higher in CTL market share than their skids which is about 9-10% nationally. Takeuchi and ASV would be close to a push with them.

My main point is that they used NH which definitely has less market share than either TAK or ASV. And we agree that NH limits their hydraulics so why use it? Throw the big TL250 and PT100 into the mix and see how they shake out. I think that lifting 6k lbs is impressive but I want to see the machines hooked up to a tractor pull sled to demonstrate sheer traction ability and I want to see them do a stock pile test loading trucks, lets see a test that demonstrates true aux hydraulic horsepower and cooling (stump grinding, cold planer, brush mulcher, etc.). Something other than what falls out of the scope of manufacturer, AEM, OSHA or SAE recommendations.

Yeah, I'm sure of that.

I'd like to see some of those tests too, but if this group is any indication, nobody would believe the results anyway. I would like to see something similar to the Nebraska Tractor tests for some of this equipment. But would guess nobody really wants to fund something like that and would probably be tough to get everyone to participate, like Kubota not bringing their tractors to Nebraska...

[SiteSolutions]

In my practical experience, I have seen the Deere advantage in lifting, vs my T-190. A buddy has a 322. We sodded a whole soccer field. He could move two rolls of sod using the pallet forks. I could not reliably get two rolls off the ground with my T-190. I could basically get the majority of the weight off two rolls where I could push them around without tearing them up. I think the hydraulics give up too quick on a T-190, but if they were turned up too much more it would be able to pick up more than it could safely handle.

Deere is good for heavy lifting. Still think this ad is full of it, tho.

[Digdeep]

Yeah, I'm sure of that.

I'd like to see some of those tests too, but if this group is any indication, nobody would believe the results anyway. I would like to see something similar to the Nebraska Tractor tests for some of this equipment. But would guess nobody really wants to fund something like that and would probably be tough to get everyone to participate, like Kubota not bringing their tractors to Nebraska...

You've stoked my curiosity. I'll see if I can get some market numbers from my contact at Bobcat. He has nothing to worry about since they're clearly #1 in CTL market share.

I agree with you on this. I think that the Nebraska Tractor Tests would be the best format. Independant 3rd party with no biases. I wonder what the costs are?

[AWJ Services]

I think we need to do our own test.. its just hard to know how much something weighs to do so.....

I had a Deere 322 and a Tl140 on demo both at the same time.The deere has more ROC and at the time was priced the same as the TL140.
This was back in 2006 and I will say the Deere had decent lifting ability but that was all it had.The design of there boom was a liability in everything but lifting.It was especially weak trying to lift from the all the way down position and bucket curl was an absolute joke.

Maybe the 332 will wipe the floor with the TL150 but based on previous experiences I doubt it.

[DeereMan85]

Take a look at all the specs except ROC and the TL140 should wipe the floor with a CT322. You're comparing a radial machine to a vertical machine, so its ROC is naturally going to be lower than a vertical machine of the same physical size. The 322 weighs 1400 lbs. less and has 15 less hp. It's actually much closer in size (700 lbs. larger, same hp) to the TL130, and comparison tests I've seen show them neck and neck in all areas except lifting. Deere was superior in that area because of the vertical lift and greater mass, even though the Takkie has more boom breakout.

Apparently your Deere salesman didn't do his homework before coming out for a demo. I assure you that you wouldn't have been disappointed in a CT332 against a TL150.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

As a Deere salesman, I agree that the tone of the videos is juvenile and probably turns off a lot of people, especially those loyal to other brands.

There are training videos of Deere machines (admittedly from 2006, so they may no longer win as often) performing the same tests in a more controlled environment and winning more often than not. That being said, the models shown for each test are not always the same, leading one to believe that Deere chose to show the particular size class in which they performed best.

Deere's mantra for skids is "Productivity, Uptime, Low Daily Operating Cost."

Productivity
-Greater degree of bucket rollback, allowing more material in bucket
-60/40 weight distribution for less bucking and better hill climbing
-Lifting ability, mainly because of the lift pattern in the "work zone"
-Pushing ability of CTLs, especially CT332

Uptime
-Longer service intervals than many competitors=less time in shop
-Easy access to daily service checkpoints
-Accessibility for repairs

Low Daily Operating Cost
-Long service intervals=less time and supplies
-Serviceability=less time spent on service and repairs

Not every model is better in every category, but these are the general selling points for us to focus on. Notice how these points match up fairly well with the contests? Also, notice how there is no ingress/egress time trial, side visibility contest, or game demonstrating joystick smoothness?

The point is, of course the contests are tailored to Deere's strengths. They paid for the videos. Besides that, it's fairly obvious that this is more of an attempt to create buzz than to seriously "smack down" competitors. Too bad it comes across as gimmicky or Deere could have turned all this attention into some sales.

Foster would be proud of you.......Throw the man an ink pen...LOL

[JDSKIDSTEER]

I feel bad for the Deere dealers on this one. I may have considered a Deere unit before if it was priced right, but I'm pretty disgusted with the way Deere is behaving itself as far as those videos go. They're just stupid and I know I can't be the only person who feels that way. It just makes me feel that if their promotions are that gimmicky then their machines probably are too.

And for the record no I wouldn't trust any tests against another brand that were funded/performed by a manufacturer.

Now if it was shane, ron, picasso, and whoever else with their own machines performing the tests on their own I would trust the result FAR more than anything from a manufacturer or a dealer.Has not hurt my business. I have great market share 40% track and 50% rubber tire this fiscal year in my biggest county( Usualy I hover between 15-25%.Do not what I am doing right this year.....Maybe not giving up to the economic bull and stiill working 4 am to 6 pm to make things happen. But honestly, I have not had a single customer or competive owner mention smack down to me. They take it for what it is worth, ADVERTISMENT..... Duh

[JDSKIDSTEER]

Take a look at all the specs except ROC and the TL140 should wipe the floor with a CT322. You're comparing a radial machine to a vertical machine, so its ROC is naturally going to be lower than a vertical machine of the same physical size. The 322 weighs 1400 lbs. less and has 15 less hp. It's actually much closer in size (700 lbs. larger, same hp) to the TL130, and comparison tests I've seen show them neck and neck in all areas except lifting. Deere was superior in that area because of the vertical lift and greater mass, even though the Takkie has more boom breakout.

Apparently your Deere salesman didn't do his homework before coming out for a demo. I assure you that you wouldn't have been disappointed in a CT332 against a TL150.

His Deere saleman sucked and was not working there a week later.

[DeereMan85]

Has not hurt my business. I have great market share 40% track and 50% rubber tire this fiscal year in my biggest county( Usualy I hover between 15-25%.Do not what I am doing right this year.....Maybe not giving up to the economic bull and stiill working 4 am to 6 pm to make things happen. But honestly, I have not had a single customer or competive owner mention smack down to me. They take it for what it is worth, ADVERTISMENT..... Duh

Out of curiosity, what's the annual market potential for your AOR and biggest counties? We cover 6 counties with a total annual potential of 300-320 units, 100-120 in the county with the most potential (mostly rural with a lot of livestock), 65-75 in the 2nd biggest (small city, mostly contractors). Always wondered how that compared to other dealers. By the way, our market share is not near what yours is this year, but we're pretty close to your normal range. Better than the 6% we had before I started a year ago.

[AWJ Services]

Take a look at all the specs except ROC and the TL140 should wipe the floor with a CT322. You're comparing a radial machine to a vertical machine, so its ROC is naturally going to be lower than a vertical machine of the same physical size. The 322 weighs 1400 lbs. less and has 15 less hp. It's actually much closer in size (700 lbs. larger, same hp) to the TL130, and comparison tests I've seen show them neck and neck in all areas except lifting. Deere was superior in that area because of the vertical lift and greater mass, even though the Takkie has more boom breakout.

Apparently your Deere salesman didn't do his homework before coming out for a demo. I assure you that you wouldn't have been disappointed in a CT332 against a TL150.

I compare machines by price.
That was the only machine that deere had that was competitive price wise with the TL140.
So maybe Deere needs to offer more machine for the same money?

[Tigerotor77W]

There are two points that have come up in this thread that I found interesting:

1) Canon's point about Deere's reach. He showed a picture of a Deere machine lifting a 3,900 pound pallet with the side of the pallet closest to the back plate of the forks sitting about 8-12" from the back plate of the forks.

Deere's lift path doesn't have nearly as much reach as the other makes do at any height until maximum lift height.

A far more accurate test of a machine's real-world lift ability would be to measure the distance from the front axle to the load center of the material to be moved, then position the pallet appropriately. This guarantees that all the machines are able to unload a pallet from the same truck. If the Deere machine can't reach a pallet on a truck, an infinite ROC would be useless. Reach would be the critical spec.

To summarize, yes, Deeres can lift a lot. But throw that load center out where the rest of the manufacturers play and try again.

2) I've been whining about a third-party test since 2004. I wrote a letter and legal disclaimer that I was going to send out to all my local dealers -- Patten Cat, West Side Tractor (Deere), Lewis Equipment (NH), McCann (Case), Atlas Bobcat, and maybe a Gehl or Tak or another brand. I never was able to get this out before I started college two months later, but I had been wanting to do an exhaustive test of large- and small-frame loaders in pushing, lifting, and digging.

A sidenote to this: although it would be rather simple to verify pump pressures and the like for lifting or pushing, a digging comparison is difficult to make. SSLs are affected heavily by operator skill and ground condition; I'd argue that it's almost impossible to compare Construction Equipment Magazine's old Field Test production studies, for instance, between brands. According to those studies, the Gehl 6635 would outwork the Bobcat 963 (which I refuse to believe). (The numbers for the 6635 vs. 6625 test were higher than those for the 963 vs. 953 test.) Granted those were in two different situations, but again, these machines are small enough that one operator could make either machine A or machine B look better. Put me in a Case and I'll look incompetent; put me in a Cat and I can at least move the machine where I want to.

The safety issue is one that's not going to get answered here.

[Duffster]

A far more accurate test of a machine's real-world lift ability would be to measure the distance from the front axle to the load center of the material to be moved, then position the pallet appropriately. This guarantees that all the machines are able to unload a pallet from the same truck. If the Deere machine can't reach a pallet on a truck, an infinite ROC would be useless. Reach would be the critical spec.

That is one of the lamest arguments against Deere I have heard yet.

[Bleed Green]

When something like that is sponsored by a manufacturer then it is almost 100% guaranteed to be biased. If you honestly believe that Deere is the best machine in every possible category then you're pretty naive. Deere hasn't taken anything but 1st place in those little "smackdown" videos.

If you need to have guys hanging off the back of your machine you need to re-think the way you operate. If you had osha walk onto your site and see 2 guys hanging off the back of a skidsteer you'd be having a bad day.

If you have the largest skid and need more capacity then you might want to move up to a loader or a Lull. Or you need to move whatever it is in 2 trips rather than 1. Much safer and could be more efficient.

They do back up their tests in the "prove it" section on the smack down website. I mean sure it is probably biased it is a Deere site, but they do back their stuff up with numbers at least.

[Mr. Rain]

That is one of the lamest arguments against Deere I have heard yet.

Agreed.
If the requirement is to be able to flat lift a pallet and place it in the center of a trailer deck that is 2' off the ground, I don't think anybody has the reach for that. I don't know how much less reach in the 2' to say 4' range the Deere would have, or for that matter that it actually is less, but I find it very hard to believe it's more than an inch or two when compared to other vertical lift machines. I certainly wouldn't say that the only fair lifting test is to restrict it to one very specific scenario such as loading a specified truck height with clearance restrictions under the bed limiting how far under it you can go. Not a lot of real world in that test.

[CAT powered]

Bleed Green they may have numbers to back it up, but we know that while numbers cannot lie they can be influenced and made to say certain things.

Just look at the way the gov't screws with numbers.

[Bleed Green]

I mean they are also having the operators that are used to running the other brands come and run the Bobcats etc in the smackdown. So there is no argument that it is biased in that sense anymore. Nobody can say that the Deere people are running everything and making the competitors look bad at least. But like has already been stated this is a Deere advertisement after all.

[Skidsteerman]

Aside from the Smackdown advertisement my REAL world test pretty much have the same results. If a customer is looking at another brand besides Deere, I encourage them to have the competitor unit on hand the same time he/she is demoing a Deere. Not only to do the lifting compression but also a hill side comparison for stability.

Most heavy lifting is from ground level to 4' ~ 5' off the ground for pallet type work to load/unload from a tractor trailer. Is Deere strong in every point? Maybe not currently, but do your own side by side lift test and try not to be bias about it, then come back and report.

Only machines I have not done a current side by side test with is the TL250 and Case CTL's (that's mainly because I never seem to compete against Case equipment). The TL150 was a tough unit but could not out lift the Deere and from what I've been told by a customer who purchased a TL250, they are somewhat weaker then the older TL150's. I don't know this for sure, just what a customer who bought one told me.

Only Case we did a lift test on was a couple years ago on a Case 445CT. Did a side by side lifting crawler undercarriage on a pallet in the backyard. Don't know it's weight, no weight figure was on the shipping label. The case could budge it but not lift it off the ground 4' like the Deere CT332 did. That was a trade in Case we had with 85 hours on it and a customer interested in the Case wanted to see the difference. He was a Case owner and he operated both units to do the test, not us.

Mostly I have fun putting the CT332 up against the Cat 297 and the Bobcat T320 - pretty interesting seeing the Deere out preform higher HP machines. Proof that more HP doesn't always give you more preformance.

If your brand loyal, none of this matters to you anyway because depending on your loyalty level, it would take something from the brand you love to go wrong to make a change. Some people keep an open mind and aren't afraid to check into other brand equipment to see what suits their needs the best.

[AWJ Services]

Aside from the Smackdown advertisement my REAL world test pretty much have the same results. If a customer is looking at another brand besides Deere, I encourage them to have the competitor unit on hand the same time he/she is demoing a Deere. Not only to do the lifting compression but also a hill side comparison for stability.

Most heavy lifting is from ground level to 4' ~ 5' off the ground for pallet type work to load/unload from a tractor trailer. Is Deere strong in every point? Maybe not currently, but do your own side by side lift test and try not to be bias about it, then come back and report.

Only machines I have not done a current side by side test with is the TL250 and Case CTL's (that's mainly because I never seem to compete against Case equipment). The TL150 was a tough unit but could not out lift the Deere and from what I've been told by a customer who purchased a TL250, they are somewhat weaker then the older TL150's. I don't know this for sure, just what a customer who bought one told me.

Only Case we did a lift test on was a couple years ago on a Case 445CT. Did a side by side lifting crawler undercarriage on a pallet in the backyard. Don't know it's weight, no weight figure was on the shipping label. The case could budge it but not lift it off the ground 4' like the Deere CT332 did. That was a trade in Case we had with 85 hours on it and a customer interested in the Case wanted to see the difference. He was a Case owner and he operated both units to do the test, not us.

Mostly I have fun putting the CT332 up against the Cat 297 and the Bobcat T320 - pretty interesting seeing the Deere out preform higher HP machines. Proof that more HP doesn't always give you more preformance.

If your brand loyal, none of this matters to you anyway because depending on your loyalty level, it would take something from the brand you love to go wrong to make a change. Some people keep an open mind and aren't afraid to check into other brand equipment to see what suits their needs the best.

I really like to here about the salesmans experiences on here.
I will agree the Deere should out lift all skid steers soley because of the loader arm configuration that places the pivot point so far to the back of the machine.
My TL140 will lift 5000 pounds on forks and load on a truck but that is about it's limit.It will lift and carry much more than that.
I would hope the 150/250 would lift more but I have never tested one so I do not know.

The achilles heal with the Deere for me was the cab and noise so performance was irrelevant.:weightlifter:

[Digdeep]

The achilles heal with the Deere for me was the cab and noise so performance was irrelevant.:weightlifter:

Screaming banshee's:hammerhead: and at least for me, the ingress and egress out of the current cab is a chore.

[ksss]

Screaming banshee's:hammerhead: and at least for me, the ingress and egress out of the current cab is a chore.


I am curious to see what the D series brings. The spy photos show the same basic machine. Slight changes to the lift mechanism, skidsteerman gives the impression that all woes will be cured with the new series (I reading between the lines of his reply) guess we will see.

[SellingIron]

Will the new D series come with a bar of soap? It will help the customers try and squeeze inside the cab. I'm sure Deere's not worried about getting the customer out. Make sure its soap on a rope so when the customer finally gets out and threatens you. His new gift will come in handy for when he's in jail....2 for 1 deal...

[JDSKIDSTEER]

The achilles heal with the Deere for me was the cab and noise so performance was irrelevant.:weightlifter:

Our weak spot for sure...But sold CT322 cab today anyway. 3 this week.....I told them I had a cash for clunkers special......or was that clunkers for cash.

[BIGBEN2004]

I wish they could make a better roll up door and a flat platform for your feet when ordered with the joystick controls. Performance wise I always liked the lift arm design on the Deere's and New Hollands for heavy lifting.

[Dieselnut]

I bet a few of you guys saw the post on HEF a while back when a picture of the new D series was posted. If you want Ill go look for it and share the pictures.

[Duffster]

I bet a few of you guys saw the post on HEF a while back when a picture of the new D series was posted. If you want Ill go look for it and share the pictures.

It was posted here at least twice.

(it was my pic) LOL

[AWJ Services]

Our weak spot for sure...But sold CT322 cab today anyway. 3 this week.....I told them I had a cash for clunkers special......or was that clunkers for cash.

The reality is if you want a small CTL loader that can lift a fair amount of weight the 322 has the market cornered.

[Bleed Green]

Any more ideas as to when we will be able to see/hear more about the D-series machines? I am figuring if they are going to release them toward the end of the year that they will start talking about them and hyping them sooner rather than later.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

Should be placing orders by sept. or oct.....Word is hit the lots by December. Selling new for cheap now,,trying to make room so we can order....I think I will run short on CT322's and 317's, but have dealers with year old units I can pull from to get me by.

[bobcat_ron]

The reality is if you want a small CTL loader that can lift a fair amount of weight the 322 has the market cornered.

A small CTL has to be under 66" of machine width and under 65 hp, the 322 is by no means a "small" CTL, it's 70" across the tracks.
The 315CTL is just a joke.

[AWJ Services]

A small CTL has to be under 66" of machine width and under 65 hp, the 322 is by no means a "small" CTL, it's 70" across the tracks.
The 315CTL is just a joke.

Well everyone keeps telling me the 322 is a smaller loader then my TL140 so I cannot compare the 2?:)

[WillieWonka1850]

I bet a few of you guys saw the post on HEF a while back when a picture of the new D series was posted. If you want Ill go look for it and share the pictures.
It is the same one I posted at the early in June?
If its a different picture or pictures, please post!

[Duffster]

It is the same one I posted at the early in June?
If its a different picture or pictures, please post!

Nice edit, did you just realize you posted the pic?:laugh:

[bobcat_ron]

Well everyone keeps telling me the 322 is a smaller loader then my TL140 so I cannot compare the 2?:)

Size wise, the Deere is a physical size smaller than the TL140, but power wise, they are darn near at par with each other.
The TL140 is also at par with the Cat 279C, but the Cat is 8" wider across the tracks.

[WillieWonka1850]

"At the early in June?" I think I'm going insane!
I don't suffer from insanity! I enjoy every minute of it! :dizzy: :laugh:

But Yeah I'd like more pics of them.
There wasn't any info on them on Deere's site last time I checked.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

Well everyone keeps telling me the 322 is a smaller loader then my TL140 so I cannot compare the 2?:)

Power wise it holds it's own against the TL240. Lift hight it falls short. Price wise I am usualy 3-5K less money here.

[AWJ Services]

Power wise it holds it's own against the TL240. Lift hight it falls short. Price wise I am usualy 3-5K less money here.

When I demoed the 2 side by side there was a drastic difference in digging ability.

The deere was a a couple less than the TL140 and a several thousand more than the TL130.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

When I demoed the 2 side by side there was a drastic difference in digging ability.

The deere was a a couple less than the TL140 and a several thousand more than the TL130.
It is much closer to TL140 in power.....TL130 not even close....They hardly sell that size unit around here any more. Mostly 140's size. I think Deere may be coming out with 140 sized unit....I hope...and they will have pressurized cab for sure.

[BIGBEN2004]

When I demoed the 2 side by side there was a drastic difference in digging ability.

The deere was a a couple less than the TL140 and a several thousand more than the TL130.
When you say a difference in digging ability what machine impressed you more? What two machines were they that you were comparing? I have gone side by side with a Deere CT322 with my Takeuchi TL130 and I had no problem keeping up with it but what impressed the guy who owned the Deere the most was I was able to get in the back yard at the job and he couldn't because the Deere was too wide. That is the biggest drawback to the Case track machines is they are too wide. It is always an issue with skid loader machines that have track systems bolted on to the undercarriage is that they are wider.

[AWJ Services]

When you say a difference in digging ability what machine impressed you more? What two machines were they that you were comparing? I have gone side by side with a Deere CT322 with my Takeuchi TL130 and I had no problem keeping up with it but what impressed the guy who owned the Deere the most was I was able to get in the back yard at the job and he couldn't because the Deere was too wide. That is the biggest drawback to the Case track machines is they are too wide. It is always an issue with skid loader machines that have track systems bolted on to the undercarriage is that they are wider.

I had a TL140 and the 322 both for over a week.
The deere would not dig.

My review about the deere is here.
http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=143034

[DUSTYCEDAR]

i have a deere tractor and was looking to get a skid went to deere and the sales man was out and of course the other guys couldent help me so they gave me his card.
i drove an hour to the store so i left not to hear from him for a week.
called bobcat they were at my front door the next day.
i wanted to look at the deeres but bobcat went out of there way to help me.
also the takie dealer was very helpful.

[ksss]

That is the biggest drawback to the Case track machines is they are too wide. It is always an issue with skid loader machines that have track systems bolted on to the undercarriage is that they are wider.


I agree.

The 450CT is especially wide. They are 83" wide, the BC T300 and CAT 299C are 78" and the TK 250 is 73". I guess in some applications the wider machines would be an advantage, but thats pretty wide for a lot guys. It will be interesting to see how wide the 465 ends up being, probably the same.

[Junior M]

I agree.

The 450CT is especially wide. They are 83" wide, the BC T300 and CAT 299C are 78" and the TK 250 is 73". I guess in some applications the wider machines would be an advantage, but thats pretty wide for a lot guys. It will be interesting to see how wide the 465 ends up being, probably the same.
I'd like to run a 465, especially a tracked version if they are as big of a powerhouse as you say..

[BIGBEN2004]

When you say 465 are you all referring to Case? That would be great if they made a tracked version of the 465. We have a 95XT on the farm the same as a 465 and it is amazing how much it lifts and how reliable it has been for us. Also a wide machine would be helpful on large grading jobs, just like a wide track dozer and how nice a job it does in grading a wide CTL would polish off a yard quickly and do a nice smooth job.

[Junior M]

When you say 465 are you all referring to Case? That would be great if they made a tracked version of the 465. We have a 95XT on the farm the same as a 465 and it is amazing how much it lifts and how reliable it has been for us. Also a wide machine would be helpful on large grading jobs, just like a wide track dozer and how nice a job it does in grading a wide CTL would polish off a yard quickly and do a nice smooth job.
Yep, just like the one Shane has.. :cool2:

And I'd like to run one, but I'd have to paint it white and orange if I ever went to the dark side.. :laugh:

[ksss]

I was told about the third quarter the tracked 465 would be released. Don't know if that is still on track or not.

[WillieWonka1850]

And I'd like to run one, but I'd have to paint it white and orange if I ever went to the dark side.. :laugh:
Wuss :laugh:

I'd like to see what that 465CT is gonna be all about.
I've operated the 450CT. Excellent machine.

If that 450 came that close to lifting that 6200lb weight, all I can say is Deere better watch out.
Well, we'll find out soon enough.

[Skidsteerman]

Wuss :laugh:

I'd like to see what that 465CT is gonna be all about.
I've operated the 450CT. Excellent machine.

If that 450 came that close to lifting that 6200lb weight, all I can say is Deere better watch out.
Well, we'll find out soon enough.

I'm not at all worried about what Case comes out with - These machines can only get so big before you should just jump into a small hi-lift ~ crawler loader like the Deere 605.

Deere is coming out with quit a few changes with the new "D" series that will advance their product line and address allot of the current draw backs on the current models. Can't let the cat (no punt intended) out of the bag too soon yet.

[Hoy landscaping]

typical. all the city slickers think deere is the best. plus deeres advertising is the best and everyone thinks there the best

[Skidsteerman]

typical. all the city slickers think deere is the best. plus deeres advertising is the best and everyone thinks there the best

:confused: Who are you calling a city slicker? Who said Deere's advertisment was the best? Your statement makes no sense at all, it's usually the farmers who get all hell bent on what brand equipment they run and what color its painted. Not sure where your city slicker statement originated from... Why the hate?

I'm sure other brands don't feel this way about their products at all, huh?

But it is true, Run the best, Run John Deere (poking with ya with a stick)

[bobcat_ron]

But it is true, Run the best, Run John Deere (poking with ya with a stick)

Ha-ha, that gave me a laugh and a half, of all the "best" possible skid steers out there, Deere seems to have an enormous amount of haters out there that complain about their cab's interior size and "bath tub" feeling and how hard it is to get in/out.

When was the last time you heard a Bobcat fan say that Bobcat is the "best" and complain about the cab.

Deere better STFU because a lot of people are just getting plain sick and tired of their over advertising and pushy sales people.
Yeah, I said pushy, I have had 2 business cards from Deere reps in my area slip their cards into my front door's weather stripping hoping I would call them.
My brother has gotten 2 in this year alone, and it's only from Deere.
Man, they are brain washed and are just like Jehovah's Witnesses here, just pushy, pushy pushy.

[Skidsteerman]

Ha-ha, that gave me a laugh and a half, of all the "best" possible skid steers out there, Deere seems to have an enormous amount of haters out there that complain about their cab's interior size and "bath tub" feeling and how hard it is to get in/out.

When was the last time you heard a Bobcat fan say that Bobcat is the "best" and complain about the cab.

Deere better STFU because a lot of people are just getting plain sick and tired of their over advertising and pushy sales people.
Yeah, I said pushy, I have had 2 business cards from Deere reps in my area slip their cards into my front door's weather stripping hoping I would call them.
My brother has gotten 2 in this year alone, and it's only from Deere.
Man, they are brain washed and are just like Jehovah's Witnesses here, just pushy, pushy pushy.

Maybe it's just you getting sick and tired of Deere. I'm sure you probably never cared for Deere product before any of the sales reps dropped cards off at your door step. If they never dropped cards off at your place, you'd be offended and balk that the local Deere dealership didn't care enough about your business to even stop by and give you the time of day.

You never even met or talked to the Deere reps and your accusing them of being pushy, how can this be? Dropping off cards??? :confused:

It goes both ways as well, sales reps are not a whipping post for arrogant contractors/customers either - I will only tolerate so much crap and abuse from anyone before I done with you. You expect sales reps to be cordious and respectable to you - that goes both ways and this should be without even saying so.

BTW, I've heard all types of compliments and complaints from competitor owners about their Bobcat and other brand machines that they owned at the same time. Nothing new there.

So, Deere's cab brings the suck to you, I'm sure that when the new Deere "D" series hits the ground, you'll find something else to ***** about it.

[bobcat_ron]

So, Deere's cab brings the suck to you, I'm sure that when the new Deere "D" series hits the ground, you'll find something else to ***** about it.

Deere's radiators are a bugger to clean out, a single 70/30 radiator design (like Cat uses) is the only way to go in dusty environments, not being able to see your tracks from the sides and over your hips is a biggie with everyone, you need to see them when you loader is raised up, just enough to get the clearance you need with junk hanging over your bucket, but not all the way up.
That damn exhaust pipe running RIGHT BEHIND the cab is a joke, that really adds to the cab noise and overall operator's noise complaints.
The fact that it has taken Deere so frigging long to come out with a radius path loader, but only on the small frames, no one wants that many moving parts on a loader, especially in a demo or earth moving application. The loader design is a joke, the rear of the loader hits a low ceiling, there aren't too many poultry farmers here that have Deere of NH skids for that matter, all Bobcat or Cat.
The hydraulic quick attach hydraulic cylinder, man are those units expensive, integrated electric motor, pump and cylinder, they are over $500 at our dealer's parts counter, you get one rock jammed in between the loader and that "actuator", it's toast, at least Cat/ASV and Case's are better protected with individual cylinders or a robust single hydraulic cylinder.
Basic machine servicing must be done with the loader up, again, 2 problems arise from this (1) what if you have a low ceiling in your shop or it's being done in a building with low ceilings (2) what if the machine has lost oil pressure and trying to lift the loader up will cause damage, this was actually a thread that was started on the www.skidsteerforum.com, what a mess that was.
Getting back to the loader design, the only way you can see your cutting edge with a Deere bucket, is to have a low profile bucket, Bobcat and Cat buckets are taller, and even with my light material Bobcat bucket, I can clearly see the cutting edge, and the bucket is 8" higher than my current Bobcat buckets, try putting a Bobcat bucket on a Deere and see how much of the edge you can see.
The answer is no, you can't. Why? The operator sits lower and further back, and further away from the bucket The loader arms are extended forward (more bucket break out) but being so low, means you have to use a lower height bucket to see what you are doing.
New Hollands sit higher, I know that for a fact.

[Duffster]

Man, they are brain washed and are just like .

This from a CaT guy. :rolleyes:

[bobcat_ron]

This from a CaT guy. :rolleyes:

Ha-ha, yup, and a former Bobcat guy, three times over.

I'm not going to preach that Cat is better, because Case, New Holland, Bobcat , Takeuchi, Gehl, Thomas and Mustang all have their strong points too, but it's Deere that seems to really brain wash everyone with their advertising.
But then again, Cat has nothing to prove, they are still the world's #1 heavy equipment seller, and Deere just wants a piece of the pie.

[mrsops]

Ha-ha, that gave me a laugh and a half, of all the "best" possible skid steers out there, Deere seems to have an enormous amount of haters out there that complain about their cab's interior size and "bath tub" feeling and how hard it is to get in/out.

When was the last time you heard a Bobcat fan say that Bobcat is the "best" and complain about the cab.

Deere better STFU because a lot of people are just getting plain sick and tired of their over advertising and pushy sales people.
Yeah, I said pushy, I have had 2 business cards from Deere reps in my area slip their cards into my front door's weather stripping hoping I would call them.
My brother has gotten 2 in this year alone, and it's only from Deere.
Man, they are brain washed and are just like Jehovah's Witnesses here, just pushy, pushy pushy.

Ron if i had to run a john deere skid steer or ctl i would quit my business. The worst possible cab out there, I hit my head twice in one day getting in and out of that machine. It was so loud and tight inside that i actually said to myself god bless someone that runs this machine everyday. The loader arms are just to dam big they block all side visibility to the rear. You cant see the corners of the buckets when grading. That roll up door is a joke. Can the machine lift it sure can that's the only good thing about it. I think most guys that own deere skid steers are not in them all day long there using them a few hours here and there maybe moving heavy pallets around or maybe there's just some john deere fans out there buying there skids because they own some of there heavy equipment i don't know.

[bobcat_ron]

Ron if i had to run a john deere skid steer or ctl i would quit my business. The worst possible cab out there, I hit my head twice in one day getting in and out of that machine. It was so loud and tight inside that i actually said to myself god bless someone that runs this machine everyday. The loader arms are just to dam big they block all side visibility to the rear. You cant see the corners of the buckets when grading. That roll up door is a joke. Can the machine lift it sure can that's the only good thing about it. I think most guys that own deere skid steers are not in them all day long there using them a few hours here and there maybe moving heavy pallets around or maybe there's just some john deere fans out there buying there skids because they own some of there heavy equipment i don't know.


Amen, if it wasn't for Deere's power, they wouldn't sell very much, kinda like dropping a supercharged V-8 into a 1990's Pontiac Firefly.

[Bleed Green]

The advertising is out there to get the name out and show off the product. That is just what Deere wants people talking about their products...Guess the advertising is working huh guys?

[stuvecorp]

No offense Deere guys but I don't care what Deere does.

[AWJ Services]

With Equipment I prefer the KISS philosphy.

Same with My trucks.

These are my Priorities in order of relevance.

1.That it starts more times than not(preferably alot more)

2.That it is easy to use.

3.It performs well the way I use it.

4.It is cheap as possible.


I do not need fancy electronics to control the machine, xm radio with a leather reclining sofa, a soft ride, Fastest cycle times in the industry, blah blah blah.

I just want a machine that works.

That is why I am attracted to Kubota and Takeuchi.
They may not be the best or the flashiest but you always seem to get the most performance per dollar.

[DeereMan85]

Basic machine servicing must be done with the loader up, again, 2 problems arise from this (1) what if you have a low ceiling in your shop or it's being done in a building with low ceilings (2) what if the machine has lost oil pressure and trying to lift the loader up will cause damage, this was actually a thread that was started on the www.skidsteerforum.com, what a mess that was.

What do you call "basic machine servicing?" You can open up the rear door and hood, remove the side panels, and lift the cab with the booms down. Greasing, changing oil, checking and topping fluids, replacing fuel filter, charging battery, replacing air filters, replacing the fuel/water separator, cleaning the radiator/oil cooler/AC condenser, and pretty much anything short of major repair work can be performed with the booms down. Sure, it's handier and more accessible with them up, but to say it's impossible is inaccurate.

[Skidsteerman]

Deere's radiators are a bugger to clean out, a single 70/30 radiator design (like Cat uses) is the only way to go in dusty environments,


Seriously? How hard can it be to open the rear door on the Deere units and use an air gun or low water pressure hoes to clean the radiator and hydraulic coolers - the radiator is totally exposed with the door open as well as the hydraulic cooler which is mounted to the door.

Dusty environments? Well hows that Bobcat do in dusty conditions? Looks like a Tasmanian devil whirling up dust as the radiator/hydraulic cooling fan exhaust blows out the sides directly down onto the tracks - ya, that's a bright idea huh:rolleyes: Go through allot of air filters do ya?


not being able to see your tracks from the sides and over your hips is a biggie with everyone, you need to see them when you loader is raised up, just enough to get the clearance you need with junk hanging over your bucket, but not all the way up.


Not sure what your trying to explain here:confused: I'm sure Deere has blind spots in areas other machines don't and visa verse. Kind of hard to get away from this being the operators cab is inside a loader frame.


That damn exhaust pipe running RIGHT BEHIND the cab is a joke, that really adds to the cab noise and overall operator's noise complaints.


More then likely your talking about units without a sound package in them would be my guess and it's not the exhaust pipe your talking about, it's the muffler located directly behind the rear firewall.

But ya, Bobcat's are soo quiet - that's why I can distinctly tell ones running more then a mile away from me with the screaming cooling fan noise.


The fact that it has taken Deere so frigging long to come out with a radius path loader, but only on the small frames, no one wants that many moving parts on a loader, especially in a demo or earth moving application.

Orly:confused: No one huh? Does not seem to be a factor for me at all with people I deal with, no one directly has ever asked for a radial lift machine. If no one wants vertical lift machines then why is it Cat, Bobcat and Case fabricated vertical lift boom linkages on their radial lift chassis's? They seem to think there's enough market to justify offering this. And I see machines like the T300 running around so I would say your wrong here as well.



The loader design is a joke, the rear of the loader hits a low ceiling, there aren't too many poultry farmers here that have Deere of NH skids for that matter, all Bobcat or Cat.

What the heck are you talking about here:confused: the front of a Deere loader arm assy will hit a ceiling way before the rear will - again you don't have a clue what your talking about. If the rear boom area of a Deere machine contacts a low ceiling anything else on the market would have hit it as well. And I'm quite certain YOU know ALL the farmers around you too.


The hydraulic quick attach hydraulic cylinder, man are those units expensive, integrated electric motor, pump and cylinder, they are over $500 at our dealer's parts counter, you get one rock jammed in between the loader and that "actuator", it's toast, at least Cat/ASV and Case's are better protected with individual cylinders or a robust single hydraulic cylinder.


You need to take a second look at the metal guards on a Deere quick tatch if you think it's not protected - you must have it confused with a Bobcat quick tatch. How about that greasing maintenance you have to do with the Cat/ASV and Case quick tatch levers? No maintenance with Deere's rotating lock down latches at all.



Basic machine servicing must be done with the loader up, again, 2 problems arise from this (1) what if you have a low ceiling in your shop or it's being done in a building with low ceilings


Side panels are removable with the boom down for gaining access for servicing. In fact, side panels removed with the boom up and boom lock engaged from inside the machine (unlike the unsafe method Cat, Case, ASV, Bobcat etc etc offers) cab rolled back, Deere offers better servicing access then most other machines out there.


(2) what if the machine has lost oil pressure and trying to lift the loader up will cause damage, this was actually a thread that was started on the www.skidsteerforum.com, what a mess that was.


Starting to get bored sorting through all this BS. I'm not registered on that site and don't have the time to read whatever thread you posted but sounds like said person should stay away from equipment with wrenches in hand

On the Deere machines he could have:

He could have pulled the red T handle inside the operators cab down on the left side by his left leg - boom bypass valve

He could have just cracked the boom cylinder hydraulic lines to release the pressure. I'm positive all the other brands out there is going to be similar.


Getting back to the loader design, the only way you can see your cutting edge with a Deere bucket, is to have a low profile bucket, Bobcat and Cat buckets are taller, and even with my light material Bobcat bucket, I can clearly see the cutting edge, and the bucket is 8" higher than my current Bobcat buckets, try putting a Bobcat bucket on a Deere and see how much of the edge you can see.
The answer is no, you can't. Why? The operator sits lower and further back, and further away from the bucket The loader arms are extended forward (more bucket break out) but being so low, means you have to use a lower height bucket to see what you are doing.
New Hollands sit higher, I know that for a fact.

:confused: first anyone's ever stated not being able to see the cutting edge on a Deere - what are you like 4'5" tall?

Low COG... Big reason Deere machines are much more stable on hill climbs, hill sides and lifting heavy material while keeping its feet planted. You don't need a step ladder to climb into a Deere like everyone else. Deere uses a Low Profile construction bucket so operators ca see the cutting edge while operating the unit. These buckets have the same Cu Ft capacity if not more as other brand machines out there.

Funny how every Bobcat operator you see is leaning forward like a turtle trying to get out of its shell. Seems to me a high back seat is useless in their product if you never use it.


It's apparent you dislike Deere and seem to be hell bent on it, so I'm not going to bother it anymore.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

I can't believe you guys let Ron suck you into arguing with him. You are wasteing your time....LOL.....Aint that right Ronnie

[bobcat_ron]

I can't believe you guys let Ron suck you into arguing with him. You are wasteing your time....LOL.....Aint that right Ronnie

I sometimes start arguements with myself, I'm such a damn good master-debater. http://deephousepage.com/smilies/banana.gif

[JDSKIDSTEER]

I sometimes start arguements with myself, I'm such a damn good master-debater. http://deephousepage.com/smilies/banana.gif

I know that. You are the man Ron.

[Digdeep]

I can't believe you guys let Ron suck you into arguing with him. You are wasteing your time....LOL.....Aint that right Ronnie

You definitely can't say we don't have a lively group.:drinkup:

[JDSKIDSTEER]

You definitely can't say we don't have a lively group.:drinkup:

Yes, We can do like Obama and hold a beer summit to work out our differences....LOL

[Bleed Green]

A beer summit would be ok, but it would have to be more productive than Obama's beer summit was. That was such a joke.

[Digdeep]

A beer summit would be ok, but it would have to be more productive than Obama's beer summit was. That was such a joke.

It was a big "post racial" joke. Why did they have Joe (botox) Biden there?

I think we should have a kegger instead of a beer summit!:drinkup:

[jefftb]

I sometimes start arguements with myself, I'm such a damn good master-debater. http://deephousepage.com/smilies/banana.gif


Mussst stop myssself, just two letters offfffffff from changing complete sentence meaning........

[SellingIron]

[QUOTE=Skidsteerman;3125540]Seriously? How hard can it be to open the rear door on the Deere units and use an air gun or low water pressure hoes to clean the radiator and hydraulic coolers - the radiator is totally exposed with the door open as well as the hydraulic cooler which is mounted to the door.

Dusty environments? Well hows that Bobcat do in dusty conditions? Looks like a Tasmanian devil whirling up dust as the radiator/hydraulic cooling fan exhaust blows out the sides directly down onto the tracks - ya, that's a bright idea huh:rolleyes: Go through allot of air filters do ya?



Not sure what your trying to explain here:confused: I'm sure Deere has blind spots in areas other machines don't and visa verse. Kind of hard to get away from this being the operators cab is inside a loader frame.



More then likely your talking about units without a sound package in them would be my guess and it's not the exhaust pipe your talking about, it's the muffler located directly behind the rear firewall.

But ya, Bobcat's are soo quiet - that's why I can distinctly tell ones running more then a mile away from me with the screaming cooling fan noise.



Orly:confused: No one huh? Does not seem to be a factor for me at all with people I deal with, no one directly has ever asked for a radial lift machine. If no one wants vertical lift machines then why is it Cat, Bobcat and Case fabricated vertical lift boom linkages on their radial lift chassis's? They seem to think there's enough market to justify offering this. And I see machines like the T300 running around so I would say your wrong here as well.




What the heck are you talking about here:confused: the front of a Deere loader arm assy will hit a ceiling way before the rear will - again you don't have a clue what your talking about. If the rear boom area of a Deere machine contacts a low ceiling anything else on the market would have hit it as well. And I'm quite certain YOU know ALL the farmers around you too.



You need to take a second look at the metal guards on a Deere quick tatch if you think it's not protected - you must have it confused with a Bobcat quick tatch. How about that greasing maintenance you have to do with the Cat/ASV and Case quick tatch levers? No maintenance with Deere's rotating lock down latches at all.




Side panels are removable with the boom down for gaining access for servicing. In fact, side panels removed with the boom up and boom lock engaged from inside the machine (unlike the unsafe method Cat, Case, ASV, Bobcat etc etc offers) cab rolled back, Deere offers better servicing access then most other machines out there.



Starting to get bored sorting through all this BS. I'm not registered on that site and don't have the time to read whatever thread you posted but sounds like said person should stay away from equipment with wrenches in hand

On the Deere machines he could have:

He could have pulled the red T handle inside the operators cab down on the left side by his left leg - boom bypass valve

He could have just cracked the boom cylinder hydraulic lines to release the pressure. I'm positive all the other brands out there is going to be similar.



:confused: first anyone's ever stated not being able to see the cutting edge on a Deere - what are you like 4'5" tall?

These buckets have the same Cu Ft capacity if not more as other brands..


The numbers I have on jd 84"

[Duffster]

??????????????????????????????????????????????

[bobcat_ron]

The person I was referring to that had to have his loader up on his Deere, had to raise the loader, and the engine was dead, so in short, he dummied up another skidsteer's aux. system to the loader cylinders and used the dummy machine to raise the loader, he used up some long lengths of hose in the process.

The only thing I will say I like about Deere is the rotating lock latches, nice idea, but I hope they still have a wedge idea, or the bucket will bang around on the quick attach frame, my Bobcat bucket wedge holes are so far gone, the wedge pins really don't do anything much to tighten them up.

[SellingIron]

[QUOTE=Skidsteerman;3125540]Seriously? How hard can it be to open the rear door on the Deere units and use an air gun or low water pressure hoes to clean the radiator and hydraulic coolers - the radiator is totally exposed with the door open as well as the hydraulic cooler which is mounted to the door.

Great location, Especially when you back into something....



But ya, Bobcat's are soo quiet - that's why I can distinctly tell ones running more then a mile away from me with the screaming cooling fan noise

JD= Bystander dba's:111
BC= Bystander dba's:103/109
If BC has a sound package: 83/85
When the BC fan kicks on. You better be ready for it or it will scare the hell out of you...:laugh:


And I see machines like the T300 running around so I would say your wrong here as well.

You said it!!!!



Side panels are removable with the boom down for gaining access for servicing. In fact, side panels removed with the boom up and boom lock engaged from inside the machine (unlike the unsafe method Cat, Case, ASV, Bobcat etc etc offers) cab rolled back, Deere offers better servicing access then most other machines out there.

This statement is great.(SIDE PANELS) You are as brianwashed with JD as I am with BC. You open the back door up on a JD and all you see is. I'm sure not to many people know the answer to this because you don't see to many JD's around, the radiator .. thats it..BC You get 75% of your filters exposed when you open up there rear door.. (No Side Panels, love that one) Unsafe rollback cab...Yeah....ok..





:confused: first anyone's ever stated not being able to see the cutting edge on a Deere - what are you like 4'5" tall?

Bobcat has over 80% more entry space than the JD. Talk about being 4'5" tall. Is this a perrequesite for your customer, to beable to fit inside that cab???

These buckets have the same Cu Ft capacity if not more as other brands..


The numbers I have on JD 84" Construction Bkt are: 21 cu ft. Heaped (If this is your standard bucket sold with unit.)

Bobcats 80" HD C/I Bkt. is 22.4 cu. ft. Heaped. (The bucket of choice is the 80" LP Bkt. which will heap even more)

[NHMan]

:gunsfirin :dizzy:

[Hoy landscaping]

:confused: Who are you calling a city slicker? Who said Deere's advertisment was the best? Your statement makes no sense at all, it's usually the farmers who get all hell bent on what brand equipment they run and what color its painted. Not sure where your city slicker statement originated from... Why the hate?

I'm sure other brands don't feel this way about their products at all, huh?

But it is true, Run the best, Run John Deere (poking with ya with a stick)

deere has the best advertising. so automaticly wenever ya talk to someone its the best stuff out there because thats the one that they herd of

[bobcat_ron]

deere has the best advertising. so automaticly wenever ya talk to someone its the best stuff out there because thats the one that they herd of

Well I know of a "lady of the night" down the road that all the guys on the block say she is the best, but she still gives out STD's.
And she's got THE BEST advertising.

[WillieWonka1850]

And she's got THE BEST advertising.

Thats my kind of advertisement :D :drinkup: :laugh:


Anywho the latest Smack Down is up. This one is more fair than the last.
http://www.skidsteersmackdown.com/season2/

[bobcat_ron]

More BS, Cat uses a radiator with the oil cooler built in, so it is so much faster to clean it out compared to the other shmucks.
When I was at the Bobcat dealer I met the "new" sales dude, typical sales reps, they only know what they sell, and they don't know dick all about the others, he told me to never ever tilt the radiator all the way back as it will kink my hoses and blow my engine.

????

Whatever, dude.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

More BS, Cat uses a radiator with the oil cooler built in, so it is so much faster to clean it out compared to the other shmucks.
When I was at the Bobcat dealer I met the "new" sales dude, typical sales reps, they only know what they sell, and they don't know dick all about the others, he told me to never ever tilt the radiator all the way back as it will kink my hoses and blow my engine.

????

Whatever, dude.

Ron, Are you off your meds again?:hammerhead:

[bobcat_ron]

Ron, Are you off your meds again?:hammerhead:

This dude has never seen a new C series or a new B2 series Cat, he hans't even seen a 2005 model up close.
He also warned me never to park my machine on an incline (such as a trailer ramp) and get out of the machine, as it will roll backwards and possibly kill someone.

Umm, OK, ever heard of an automatic parking brake system that engages as soon as the seat bar is lifted up?
The story with this guy is he sold for the NH dealer, and he hated the loaders and cabs, just like the Deere's.

[ksss]

More BS, Cat uses a radiator with the oil cooler built in, so it is so much faster to clean it out compared to the other shmucks.
When I was at the Bobcat dealer I met the "new" sales dude, typical sales reps, they only know what they sell, and they don't know dick all about the others, he told me to never ever tilt the radiator all the way back as it will kink my hoses and blow my engine.

????

Whatever, dude.

The "other schmucks" must not be refering to CASE or NH. Their radiator/cooler sit side by side. Cant get easier to clean and they are huge. Mine opens up nicesly to clean out, although not as easy as the new machines, better than having stacked radiator and coolers without being able to quickly cleanout between them, especially with the mulcher.

http://www.casece.com/wps/wcm/connect/8aa474804c13ff458139f96e241ca2f8/SSL_400Series3_BR_CCE4140803.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

Go to page 7 on the above link, shows a picture of it.

[bobcat_ron]

AMCAT made a mod to his 248 that allows him to get the ROPS up in under 30 seconds, no bolts, just these nifty snap binders he welded in the corners, I have the pic of it.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/cabclamp.jpg

[treemover]

Without trying to hijack or start more of an argument...how is the reliabilty of ct322 and ct 332?

[bobcat_ron]

Without trying to hijack or start more of an argument...how is the reliabilty of ct322 and ct 332?

About the same as any other brand, they all have their weakness and you can destroy one easily if you know how.

[ksss]

AMCAT made a mod to his 248 that allows him to get the ROPS up in under 30 seconds, no bolts, just these nifty snap binders he welded in the corners, I have the pic of it.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/cabclamp.jpg


Nice idea, not to pander but CASE has done the same thing on its larger machines since 1997 from the factory.

[Stick Pro]

That is a nice idea. Long as he does not have the lifting hooks on the cab, i dont think they would hold the weight of the tractor, while it gets raised in the air.

[ksss]

That is a nice idea. Long as he does not have the lifting hooks on the cab, i dont think they would hold the weight of the tractor, while it gets raised in the air.

Good catch, start lifting the machine by the cab and those would likely not hold.

[Nelson M Martin]

also possible it would void the roll over protection (ROP) capacity:confused:

[Skidsteerman]

AMCAT made a mod to his 248 that allows him to get the ROPS up in under 30 seconds, no bolts, just these nifty snap binders he welded in the corners, I have the pic of it.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/cabclamp.jpg

Why the need to have such a mod for no tool access? Are you having allot of problems under the cab that frequently you need this?

[bobcat_ron]

Why the need to have such a mod for no tool access? Are you having allot of problems under the cab that frequently you need this?

You know I pondered that thought all night too, why does Deere need to make lifting the ROPS so important?

Now Bobcats on the other hand.......mine broke down frequently so I got really damn good at getting that cab up, I even had a 3/4 socket wrench in the cab with me.

But to answer you question, no.
But in the event something goes horribly wrong and the answer to getting that problem solved (like a fire) is under the cab, then doing a no-tools-needed mod would make life easier.
My own machine I will pop the cab up at least once every 3 months just to clean out the debris that gets stuck inside there, and Cat's bolts are a bit of a PITA, but I use an impact wrench.

But there is nothing under the cabs that require any kind of maintenance.

[Skidsteerman]

You know I pondered that thought all night too, why does Deere need to make lifting the ROPS so important?

Now Bobcats on the other hand.......mine broke down frequently so I got really damn good at getting that cab up, I even had a 3/4 socket wrench in the cab with me.

But to answer you question, no.
But in the event something goes horribly wrong and the answer to getting that problem solved (like a fire) is under the cab, then doing a no-tools-needed mod would make life easier.
My own machine I will pop the cab up at least once every 3 months just to clean out the debris that gets stuck inside there, and Cat's bolts are a bit of a PITA, but I use an impact wrench.

But there is nothing under the cabs that require any kind of maintenance.

Unless you have sentimental value in one of these things, this is what I would do. If a unit caught on fire under the cab, I would get to a safe distance and dial 911 after making sure if was fully involved - then call my insurance company - then call (whatever brand machine you want) and line up a new one.

There's really nothing to service under the cab on a Deere for maintenance either. Only reason would be to clean area out and gain access to pumps, motors, hoses and valve body if needing repairs... some electrical if it's a JY unit. A couple 18mm nuts on the out side of ROPS, how hard can that be?

[Digdeep]

Unless you have sentimental value in one of these things, this is what I would do. If a unit caught on fire under the cab, I would get to a safe distance and dial 911 after making sure if was fully involved - then call my insurance company - then call (whatever brand machine you want) and line up a new one.

There's really nothing to service under the cab on a Deere for maintenance either. Only reason would be to clean area out and gain access to pumps, motors, hoses and valve body if needing repairs... some electrical if it's a JY unit. A couple 18mm nuts on the out side of ROPS, how hard can that be?

I fully agree with you regarding the fire. Stand back and watch the show:cry:

18mm nuts????:confused: I though the JD was US built machine.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

I fully agree with you regarding the fire. Stand back and watch the show:cry:

18mm nuts????:confused: I though the JD was US built machine.

It is, but it is an International company that exports these units from the U.S.......Don't be so nitty.

[ksss]

It is, but it is an International company that exports these units from the U.S.......Don't be so nitty.


I also agree, if my 465 burns to the ground mulching, I will look forward to a new series 3 465:drinkup:


Ah what is a "nitty"? Do you mean Nit Picky? I need to up pack my Southern Speak conversion thesorous I guess.:laugh:

[1993lx172]

I also agree, if my 465 burns to the ground mulching, I will look forward to a new series 3 465:drinkup:


Ah what is a "nitty"? Do you mean Nit Picky? I need to up pack my Southern Speak conversion thesorous I guess.:laugh:

I go to the same dealer that he does so I know the area and not once in the ten years since we moved here I have ever heard "nitty", your not the only one.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

I also agree, if my 465 burns to the ground mulching, I will look forward to a new series 3 465:drinkup:


Ah what is a "nitty"? Do you mean Nit Picky? I need to up pack my Southern Speak conversion thesorous I guess.:laugh:

Yes. I have not seen any other brand machine get nit picked as much as a Deere machine on this site. I guess if it is worth talking about we should be flattered. If they are that bad, why am I selling so many?

[bobcat_ron]

Yes. I have not seen any other brand machine get nit picked as much as a Deere machine on this site. I guess if it is worth talking about we should be flattered. If they are that bad, why am I selling so many?

One word; PROPAGANDA.

It's like Obama's speeches before the election, and now look at America, all a bunch of whining little pussies over their health care, and some really regret having Obama as their president.

I have a feeling once the Bobcat M Series makes their official debut, there will be a fair amount of Deere yellow polluting the Bobcat dealer yards.

[Duffster]

I have a feeling once the Bobcat M Series makes their official debut, there will be a fair amount of Deere yellow polluting the Bobcat dealer yards.

Or the other way around when the D series comes out.

[DeereMan85]

One word; PROPAGANDA.

It's like Obama's speeches before the election, and now look at America, all a bunch of whining little pussies over their health care, and some really regret having Obama as their president.

I have a feeling once the Bobcat M Series makes their official debut, there will be a fair amount of Deere yellow polluting the Bobcat dealer yards.

A Canadian calling Americans whining little pussies, that's rich. Have you forgotten that 1/3 of your country speaks French? Take off, hoser.

[bobcat_ron]

A Canadian calling Americans whining little pussies, that's rich. Have you forgotten that 1/3 of your country speaks French? Take off, hoser.


Oh I knew that, but at least we have a great health care system in place (us Canadians invented it) and no Mexicans to over run the country!

[Tigerotor77W]

Yes. I have not seen any other brand machine get nit picked as much as a Deere machine on this site. I guess if it is worth talking about we should be flattered. If they are that bad, why am I selling so many?

*trucewhiteflag*

I'm going to admit that I think Deere builds a good machine. I honestly think there are two skid-steer builders (add another couple for CTLs) out there that are really good, but I also don't think that you can go horribly wrong with any brand (provided, of course, the dealer is still good and purchase cost isn't outrageous, etc). Deere, in particular, has *seemed* to build a machine that doesn't want to sacrifice performance for size. There are arguments as to how much the machine should limit crazy operators (yes, you can tip a 994, too, but the operator will probably have more experience than the joe renting a SSL), but the fact of the matter is, Deere has a solid product. So do most manufacturers.

End truce.

The issue I have is with the "We have the best machine in the whole wide world" attitude. It's a fact that very few people on this site like the Cat MTL's track system, but Ron's constant praise doesn't really drown all that out. (Just post a thread and watch all the insults fly...) On the other hand, there's very little evidence to support the old arguments that Deere machines suck (ala the original 200 series), so hearing the incessant whining and bi(*#slapping other brands here is just annoying to me. Promoting the product is one thing. Singing its merits is one thing. Doing nothing but gloating over the weaknesses of other brands is really. (*&^ing. annoying. Some people might like the gung-ho, "we're gonna kick another brand's ass today" attitude, but it gets OLD after hearing it on this forum day in and day out when every thread devolves into an argument about why Deere sucks or rocks and offers absolutely nothing new about the product. I'm not attacking specific users here -- this is a reflection on Deere's own marketing campaign, too. Let the product sell itself here.

[Skidsteerman]

Oh I knew that, but at least we have a great health care system in place (us Canadians invented it) and no Mexicans to over run the country!

So how do you like paying outrageous taxes for that heath care - especially for people who don't work and pay taxes? And why do Canucks come down here for procedures they can't get up there? One thing though, you sell cheap drugs...

Mexicans don't like cold weather or the French either :smilelyflipoff:

[bobcat_ron]

So how do you like paying outrageous taxes for that heath care - especially for people who don't work and pay taxes? And why do Canucks come down here for procedures they can't get up there? One thing though, you sell cheap drugs...

Mexicans don't like cold weather or the French either :smilelyflipoff:

Wow, some Americans really are arrogant and dumb after all.

Canadians will go South for Medical procedures if they can afford it and they can't wait.

[Skidsteerman]

Wow, some Americans really are arrogant and dumb after all.

Canadians will go South for Medical procedures if they can afford it and they can't wait.

Sorry for the missed spelled word:rolleyes:

How many Americans go north for Canadian medical procedures... eh?

[Tigerotor77W]

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/08/bobcat-driver-critical-after-7-story-fall-at-south-loop-construction-site.html

Just posting it. The article calls it a "Bobcat." *facepalm*

[bobcat_ron]

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/08/bobcat-driver-critical-after-7-story-fall-at-south-loop-construction-site.html

Just posting it. The article calls it a "Bobcat." *facepalm*


Poor bugger, died in a damn Deere, seat belt probably squeezed the hell of his guts too.

I'll bet he couldn't see his tires with that oversized damn boom in the way.

[SellingIron]

Sad to see someone die , but that was funny Ron...:laugh:

[JDSKIDSTEER]

Poor bugger, died in a damn Deere, seat belt probably squeezed the hell of his guts too.

I'll bet he couldn't see his tires with that oversized damn boom in the way.

You are a certifiable nut...But heck, I like you anyway.

[Skidsteerman]

Poor bugger, died in a damn Deere, seat belt probably squeezed the hell of his guts too.

I'll bet he couldn't see his tires with that oversized damn boom in the way.

Funny thing is is the Bobcat name gets the rap:laugh:

That fall sucks just thinking about it... dyamm.

They were probably able to just start the unit back up and go back to work with it after they extracted the operator... tough ass Deere.



(waiting for Ron's response)

[Junior M]

So how do you like paying outrageous taxes for that heath care - especially for people who don't work and pay taxes? And why do Canucks come down here for procedures they can't get up there? One thing though, you sell cheap drugs...

Mexicans don't like cold weather or the French either :smilelyflipoff:
You need a lesson in how there healthcare works there, Cletus.

They come here because its actually cheaper for the canadian govt. to pay for there plane ticket and all that jazz to come here to get a surgery done than it is for Canada to hire and pay specialists and buy all the equipment and things to do the surgery.

Oh yeah and Ron is also right about canadian citizens will come down here and pay for it themselves if the Canadian health care people drags there feet.

[Bleed Green]

soon the health care here may be like Canada. Lets hope not! Makes you wonder why people come here for medical procedures if our healthcare here is in such bad shape.

[Skidsteerman]

You need a lesson in how there healthcare works there, Cletus.

They come here because its actually cheaper for the canadian govt. to pay for there plane ticket and all that jazz to come here to get a surgery done than it is for Canada to hire and pay specialists and buy all the equipment and things to do the surgery.

Oh yeah and Ron is also right about canadian citizens will come down here and pay for it themselves if the Canadian health care people drags there feet.

I don't need a lesson on their heath care. How can he brag about it being so great when clearly it's not, if it were no Canucks would venture down here for it. I just pray BHO's plan fails like it should.

[thebobcatguy]

I don't need a lesson on their heath care. How can he brag about it being so great when clearly it's not, if it were no Canucks would venture down here for it. I just pray BHO's plan fails like it should.
This whole debate about whose health care system is better, is typical of the small minded BS that goes on here all of the time. This is no different than the debate on which brand of machine is better than the other. Until the idiots in Washington and Ottawa accept the fact that both systems have strengths and weaknesses and stop the political garbage, neither the Canadians nor Americans will have the perfect healthcare sytem.

[Junior M]

I don't need a lesson on their heath care. How can he brag about it being so great when clearly it's not, if it were no Canucks would venture down here for it. I just pray BHO's plan fails like it should.
Wow, that made you seem even smarter there buddy, great job! Thumbs Up

If you'd sit down in a well lit, quiet room, and just thought you'd understand why them coming here to have surgery is smarter on there bank account.. :hammerhead:

[JDSKIDSTEER]

Hey Jr. I sold a 244J today. Got to go to Savanah next week and pick it up.

[WillieWonka1850]

Hey Jr. I sold a 244J today. Got to go to Savanah next week and pick it up.
Really? Who's the lucky one getting it? (what kind of work does he do?)
Them things are really cool loaders. What do they go for (loaded)? $65,000 new?

[JDSKIDSTEER]

Really? Who's the lucky one getting it? (what kind of work does he do?)
Them things are really cool loaders. What do they go for (loaded)? $65,000 new? A logger in Tennessee. It is an old 2005 NEW unit with some rental paid down on it....Sold it for $56,000.00 Usualy 65 - 75 K

[jefftb]

A logger in Tennessee. It is an old 2005 NEW unit with some rental paid down on it....Sold it for $56,000.00 Usualy 65 - 75 K


A Tennessee Logger!?!?!?

Shhh....Don't let GR and them Canadians know that forestry work can be had down here, well be overrun boys......:rolleyes:

[DeereMan85]

Just received my info packet on all the changes to the D Series. I'll hold off on telling about them for now, but if these machines are half as good in the dirt as they appear to be on paper, even Ron might take a second look.

[Duffster]

Just received my info packet on all the changes to the D Series. I'll hold off on telling about them for now, but if these machines are half as good in the dirt as they appear to be on paper, even Ron might take a second look.

I doubt Ron will come around :(

[DeereMan85]

I'm sure he'll find something to critique, but I will say they have addressed every issue I've ever had except one small one (which I've heard will change later) and then some. There are new and exciting features that I hadn't heard anything about but undoubtedly add value. I hope the next few months fly by because I can't wait to get in the seat and try out all the new gadgetry.

[Bleed Green]

wonder why they wouldn't make all the changes that they are planning to make now when the new series comes out?

[Duffster]

wonder why they wouldn't make all the changes that they are planning to make now when the new series comes out?

What changes are not coming out now?:confused:

[Bleed Green]

What changes are not coming out now?:confused:

That is what I am wondering....why not put all of the changes out at once when the new series comes out? Kind of a weird way to do it I would think.
I am really intrigued now to see them though.

[Duffster]

......................

[DeereMan85]

The way I worded my sentence was confusing. All of the changes will be made right away. I had hoped for a 2-speed option in medium frame models, which it appears will not be available, at least not initially. Everything else will be available immediately. The demand for that option in medium frames is probably higher for my area than most others. It likely will not be an issue for most dealers, but I would have liked to see it right away as I have several customers who would buy a new 320D as soon as they come out if it were available. The other changes more than make up for the absence of the 2-speed.

[WillieWonka1850]

That is what I am wondering....why not put all of the changes out at once when the new series comes out? Kind of a weird way to do it I would think.
I am really intrigued now to see them though.

I hope its just a few minor things, nothing big.
I would like to see or even Demo one myself.

Yes, Demo

[Duffster]

The way I worded my sentence was confusing. All of the changes will be made right away. I had hoped for a 2-speed option in medium frame models, which it appears will not be available, at least not initially. Everything else will be available immediately. The demand for that option in medium frames is probably higher for my area than most others. It likely will not be an issue for most dealers, but I would have liked to see it right away as I have several customers who would buy a new 320D as soon as they come out if it were available. The other changes more than make up for the absence of the 2-speed.

I would agree that the 320 size should be a 2 speed.

[WillieWonka1850]

The way I worded my sentence was confusing. All of the changes will be made right away. I had hoped for a 2-speed option in medium frame models, which it appears will not be available, at least not initially. Everything else will be available immediately. The demand for that option in medium frames is probably higher for my area than most others. It likely will not be an issue for most dealers, but I would have liked to see it right away as I have several customers who would buy a new 320D as soon as they come out if it were available. The other changes more than make up for the absence of the 2-speed.
I'm hoping also for a Two-Speed option in like a 320D (size we'd want)
Not so much for the high transport speed, but the pushing power of low range.

[Duffster]

I'm hoping also for a Two-Speed option in like a 320D (size we'd want)
Not so much for the high transport speed, but the pushing power of low range.

Willie, isn't low range in a 2 speed the same as a single speed?

[WillieWonka1850]

Willie, isn't low range in a 2 speed the same as a single speed?

Well I think you'd get extra pushing force and torque (?)

I think I heard that from the NH dealer when we checked out one of their CTLs.
Maybe its true, maybe its not, I don't know.

[DeereMan85]

The low range typically has about the same top speed as a normal single speed. Maybe I'm wrong, but based on my knowledge of hydrostatic drive systems I'd imagine that would mean the pushing power would have to be the same. Maybe some of the guys on here with backgrounds in engineering or mechanics would be able to answer for sure.

[Duffster]

The low range typically has about the same top speed as a normal single speed. Maybe I'm wrong, but based on my knowledge of hydrostatic drive systems I'd imagine that would mean the pushing power would have to be the same. Maybe some of the guys on here with backgrounds in engineering or mechanics would be able to answer for sure.

My limited engineering and mechanical knowledge agrees with you.

[bobcat_ron]

The low range typically has about the same top speed as a normal single speed. Maybe I'm wrong, but based on my knowledge of hydrostatic drive systems I'd imagine that would mean the pushing power would have to be the same. Maybe some of the guys on here with backgrounds in engineering or mechanics would be able to answer for sure.

Low range and standard speed is the same, all the high speed (2nd speed) does is cut off oil flow to half of the drive motor and that makes it a smaller drive motor with the same oil flow which means it spins twice as fast.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

:dizzy::clapping:Just received my info packet on all the changes to the D Series. I'll hold off on telling about them for now, but if these machines are half as good in the dirt as they appear to be on paper, even Ron might take a second look.

I just had a chance to glance at the packet.....WOW...Changes I never heard about....I have been busy enough that I have not had time to snoop with my connections and this is all a big suprise to me. If no bugs, we will have a kick butt machine. Looks awesome also.:clapping::clapping::clapping:

[AWJ Services]

:dizzy::clapping:

I just had a chance to glance at the packet.....WOW...Changes I never heard about....I have been busy enough that I have not had time to snoop with my connections and this is all a big suprise to me. If no bugs, we will have a kick butt machine. Looks awesome also.:clapping::clapping::clapping:

If Deere gets better that will raise the bar for it's competitors.

[Bleed Green]

How long till we have some pics?!!! Knowing there is stuff out there on paper makes me all the more anxious to see them.

[BIGBEN2004]

I just wanna hear what is on that paper. I wanna know what things we can expect to see.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

How long till we have some pics?!!! Knowing there is stuff out there on paper makes me all the more anxious to see them.

I better wait till Deere puts some out.

Public Introduction
�� 6 - 8 October 2009 ICUEE, Louisville KY
�� 29 - 31 October 2009 GIE/OPEI, Louisville KY
�� 1 - 5 February 2010 World of Concrete
�� 8 - 10 February 2010 ARA, Orlando
�� 9 - 11 February 2010 World Ag Expo, Tulare CA

[Duffster]

How long till we have some pics?!!!.

Here you go. :laugh:

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=147979&d=1242187273

[WillieWonka1850]

Looks like they added a seat bar. Coolness.
Still gonna have the Roll up door?

[WillieWonka1850]

I can't wait to see these things myself (coming from a PowerTan guy, sorry ksss)
The way things are in my area of MI, it'll probably around 2010 before I get to see one.

Hopefully time goes by fast!

[Duffster]

I can't wait to see these things myself (coming from a PowerTan guy, sorry ksss)
They way things are in my area of MI, it'll probably around 2010 before I get to see one.

Hopefully time goes by fast!

Are you slow?

[WillieWonka1850]

Are you slow?
Why do you say that?

[Bleed Green]

I would like to see that packet...just curiously. It almost is bad that the pic got leaked cause that makes you wonder all this time.

[Bleed Green]

I better wait till Deere puts some out.

Public Introduction
􀁸 6 - 8 October 2009 ICUEE, Louisville KY
􀁸 29 - 31 October 2009 GIE/OPEI, Louisville KY
􀁸 1 - 5 February 2010 World of Concrete
􀁸 8 - 10 February 2010 ARA, Orlando
􀁸 9 - 11 February 2010 World Ag Expo, Tulare CA

When do you think Deere will have something on their site, JD Skidsteer....Think it will be all the way into October when the public introduction is supposed to be?

[JDSKIDSTEER]

When do you think Deere will have something on their site, JD Skidsteer....Think it will be all the way into October when the public introduction is supposed to be?

I have not a clue. I am guessing October. NO ROLL UP DOOR WOOOOO HOOOO

[Construct'O]

i have not a clue. I am guessing october. No roll up door wooooo hoooo

boooooooooo !

[WillieWonka1850]

Well its already almost September so hopefully October will be here pretty quick.
But like I said the way things are up here it'll be a while before any of my dealer get any.
(Example: The Toolcat 5610 came out in around Fall 2008 (?), I didn't get to see it at the dealer until 2 weeks ago and that wasn't even at my local BC dealer, it was the BC dealer in Sandusky, MI)

But hey glad to hear no roll up door. Hopefully that goes over well :) :cool2:

[JDSKIDSTEER]

Well its already almost September so hopefully October will be here pretty quick.
But like I said the way things are up here it'll be a while before any of my dealer get any.
(Example: The Toolcat 5610 came out in around Fall 2008 (?), I didn't get to see it at the dealer until 2 weeks ago and that wasn't even at my local BC dealer, it was the BC dealer in Sandusky, MI)

But hey glad to hear no roll up door. Hopefully that goes over well :) :cool2:

We will order a few, but realy need to deplete some inventory before going hog wild on ordering.

[Bleed Green]

You will order a few of the D series first and then people will not want the 300 series.

[Bleed Green]

We will order a few, but realy need to deplete some inventory before going hog wild on ordering.


Think people will buy the 300 series if they know the D series is close though?

[Duffster]

Think people will buy the 300 series if they know the D series is close though?

At a discount.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

Think people will buy the 300 series if they know the D series is close though?

Everyone wants a bargain...We will not order stock until needed or special ordered. We are running some good deals now.

[Skidsteerman]

Well I think you'd get extra pushing force and torque (?)

I think I heard that from the NH dealer when we checked out one of their CTLs.
Maybe its true, maybe its not, I don't know.

Some of that depends on whether it's a sslder or a CTL (John Deere). On the 320 sslder I would assume the two speed will be similar to Deere's large frame sslders. Two speed sslder unit low range MPH is the same ground speed as he single speed unit - high speed is close to double the MPH the single speed range. Doubt axle torque will be any or noticeable difference in low range.

CTL's however, the two speed units low range is about a MPH slower then the single speed unit and only gains about three MPH in high range. So the CTL two speed units may have more low speed tractive torque over the single speed units, but I kinda doubt it, never put a single speed unit up against a two speed unit in low range to see if you could feel or see a difference. Never thought about that much really.

No request here for a mid chassis sslder two speed unit so far other then the CTL's - sell a few two speed CT322 units compared to the CT322 single speed units. Tough to justify $2,000 for only gaining 2 MPH on a CTL.

D series product intro via the interweb for us tomorrow. Learn about more product changes then. I know a bunch now but I'll be mum on it.

In the photo posted you can see some changes easily enough. Pull down seat bar (fought for that one hard) If you look at the back of the engine compartment, then take a look at a Deere full size wheel loader, you'll notice the copy cat resemblance - this is more then just appearance. Also notice the extreme angle departure on the chassis.

[WillieWonka1850]

Some of that depends on whether it's a sslder or a CTL (John Deere). On the 320 sslder I would assume the two speed will be similar to Deere's large frame sslders. Two speed sslder unit low range MPH is the same ground speed as he single speed unit - high speed is close to double the MPH the single speed range. Doubt axle torque will be any or noticeable difference in low range.

CTL's however, the two speed units low range is about a MPH slower then the single speed unit and only gains about three MPH in high range. So the CTL two speed units may have more low speed tractive torque over the single speed units, but I kinda doubt it, never put a single speed unit up against a two speed unit in low range to see if you could feel or see a difference. Never thought about that much really.

No request here for a mid chassis sslder two speed unit so far other then the CTL's - sell a few two speed CT322 units compared to the CT322 single speed units. Tough to justify $2,000 for only gaining 2 MPH on a CTL.

D series product intro via the interweb for us tomorrow. Learn about more product changes then. I know a bunch now but I'll be mum on it.

In the photo posted you can see some changes easily enough. Pull down seat bar (fought for that one hard) If you look at the back of the engine compartment, then take a look at a Deere full size wheel loader, you'll notice the copy cat resemblance - this is more then just appearance. Also notice the extreme angle departure on the chassis.
Yeah the NH was talking about one of the CTLs. Thanks for clarifying that SkidSteerman.

It'll be nice to all the changes made to those things.